Theatrical family - missing

[Lorraine Karen]

Hello Genealogists Forum

We have a theatrical family that was previously unknown to us!

Please help find Eliza Priscilla Thrasher born 1869 London after 1891
her daughter is Violet Alice Louise Jezard, born out of wedlock

Please help find Violet Alice Louise Jezard born 1890 London after 1901
Violet is given false parents on her birth certificate and baptism and hidden from the 1891 census - why?
Violet is born in Finborough Road and Sacillia Lovell registered at that address is not found on any other records - why?
The Thrasher family change their name when Violet is born, to hide her birth or hiding from debts?

Horace Thrasher born 1893, later known as Horace Courtenay
Horace is given false parents on his birth certificate and baptism, why
Mother Alice Thrasher born 1871 London later known as Grace Courtenay
Grace married step-father Herbert Solomon in 1901
Horace and Violet are sent to a girls boarding school in Southend in 1901, why
Being age 7 and illegitimate his father could remove him from his mother, did the mother move him and give them alternative names to hide them or the father move him to give him a better start in life
Grace is living in a boarding house in Kensington living on own means in 1901 the family rumour that Horace was the son of an Earl or an illustrious member of the aristocracy, a person of considerable note.
The Thrasher family change their name when Horace is born, to hide his birth or hiding from debts.

Please help find Edward Leslie Court born 1905 London after 1926
Mother Ruby/Ruth Court (maiden names Ruth/Ruby Thrasher/Jezard), father Albert Edward Court Chief Of Staff London Coliseum
Ruth emigrated to America in 1905/1912 and had a common law marriage with also married Edward Warren Congdon a theatre booking manager, she was herself an actress/dancer and died in San Fransisco in 1968
Albert died in 1923
Edward emigrated to Canada in 1926

Eliza, Alice and Ruth's sister Louisa married Percy Atkins a theatrical business manager at the London Lyceum, The Globe (we have a silver bowl with The Globe Club engraved underneath, the bowl looking like the beautiful domed theatre ceiling) and other London theatres.

The sisters parents are Robert Thrasher and Priscilla May Pope, who were also probably not married as no marriage certificate can be found - but according to the Charles Booth survey the Thrasher family live in wealthy, respectable areas of London.

The Thrasher family are known as Torplow/Triplow, Jezard and Courtenay.

Thank you for your help!

[kiterunner]

This may take some time! But just wanted to say that if Horace was illegitimate, I don't think his father would have had any rights over him.

[Lorraine Karen]

Thank you very much!

The law denied unmarried mothers any rights over their children when the children reached the age of seven, and they were obliged to hand them over to the father if he so desired. He might be rich enough to offer the child a better chance in life and there are instances of wealthier fathers taking their children away from mistresses with whom they had broken.

https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Illegitimacy_in_England

[kiterunner]

Interesting. Thanks for that.

I see from the GRO birth index that Eliza was born in 1868, not 1869.

Could you give us details of the parents' names given on Violet and Horace's birth certificates and baptisms, please?
Oh, and the dates of birth for Violet, Horace, and Edward from their birth certs as it will help in searching the 1939 Register etc.

[Phoenix]

The article does not make it clear which period of time they are talking about, nor which strata of society.

By the late nineteenth century, informal relationships were fairly common in cities, where the authorities were less able to keep tabs on people.

While a father might demand parental rights over an illegitimate child, I suspect it is reported by virtue of its rarity. Most men had to be dragged kicking and screaming to accept their responsibilities for the child's maintenance.

The seven years old bit is because that was the age that pauper children were put out as parish apprentices.

[kiterunner]

I've found their baptism records now, so you don't need to give the details from those, but can you please confirm that the parents' names on the birth registrations are the same as on the baptisms?
12 Jul 1896 St Philip, Kensington
Violet Alice Louise, daughter of George and May Jezard, 133 Finboro Rd, father's occupation steward on P & O.
Horace, son of Percy and Louisa Thrasher, 133 Finboro Rd, father's occupation clerk.

Can you tell us how you know who their parents (well, their mothers) really were, please?

[kiterunner]

This is 133 Finborough Rd on the 1891 census but a family called Pilditch are there:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/LNDRG12_30_32-0306?pid=8913296&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx10083&_phstart=successSource#?imageId=LNDRG12_30_32-0327

Sacillia Lovell is listed at 109 Finborough Rd on the 1889-1891 electoral registers, so I take it that Violet was born at no 109? There is a family called Doyle at no 109 on the 1891 census:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/LNDRG12_30_32-0306?pid=8913296&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx10083&_phstart=successSource#?imageId=LNDRG12_30_32-0322

[kiterunner]

Just googled "Sacillia Lovell" and it looks as though you have asked about these people on other forums in the past, so I'm just reading through some of those to see whether they came up with anything.

[kiterunner]

Okay, so from reading one of those other forums, I now know that this is the 1891 census entry for Eliza, who is supposed to be Violet's mother:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/LNDRG12_79_82-0011/12230397?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdbid%3d6598%26gsln%3dtorplow%26gsf n_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26cp%3d0%26hc%3d20%26new%3d1% 26rank%3d1%26uidh%3dvm5%26redir%3dfalse%26msT%3d1&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

18 Chapter Chambers, Westminster
Priscilla Torplow Head Widow 50 Dressmaker Cardiff South Wales
Eliza Torplow Daur S 23 Assistant Dressmaker London
Louisa Torplow Daur S 19 Assistant Dressmaker London
Ruth Torplow Daur 12 London.

[Lorraine Karen]

Thank you!

Apologies, Eliza Thraser was born in 1868 and baptised in 1869.

Sorry birth certificate not to hand at the moment
Violet Alice Louise Jezard born 1890 London, baptised 1896 with Horace
Birth certificate parents Eliza Thrasher now Eliza Jezard, husband Alfred Jezard
Baptism parents May Jezard and George Jezard
Eliza and Alfred are not married - Alfred doesn't exist
Violet and Alfred do not appear on the 1891 census
Eliza is living with her family - is Violet upstairs in a room just not noted down for the census
Eliza's mother is Priscilla May Thrasher (Pope) born 1841 Hartest and Priscilla has a brother called George Pope - could these be the baptism 'parents'
In the 1881 census a brother Alfred Pope is visiting but looking at all the censuses for Priscilla's Pope family there is no Alfred and checked out baptisms in between each census

Horace 2 January 1893
Horace Thrasher born 1893 London, baptised with Violet 1896
Birth certificate parents Grace Courtenay, now Grace Thrasher, father Robert Thrasher (Grace Courtenay is Alice Thrasher, Robert Thrasher is Alice's father)
Baptism parents Percy Thresher and Louisa Thresher (this is Percy Frederick Atkins and Louisa Thrasher Alice's sister who marry in 1905)
When Alice marries as Grace Courtenay in 1901 she calls her deceased father Robert Courtenay - we think Robert Thrasher who dies in 1879 is our Robert who on the death certificate is a fireman, a theatre fireman as the fire brigade have no records of him

Horace and Violet are living with their grandmother Priscilla May Thrasher but now known as Priscilla Jezard living in 133 Finborough Road
Priscilla dies in 1900 the widow of John Jezard (is this Robert Thrasher, when her daughter Ruth/Ruby marries as Ruby Jezard she calls her father Robert Jezard) but again no marriage for Priscilla and John and her daughter in law with her at her death was Ellen Jezard (is this Eliza) who again doesn't exist, so perhaps another reason why the children are sent to a boarding school but why Southend and why a girls boarding school for Horace - he hated it there apparently!

Sorry birth certificate not to hand at the moment born end of December and registered in early January
Edward Leslie Court born 1905 London, emigrated 1926 to Canada

Thanks again for your help!

[Lorraine Karen]

Yes that's right - found them as Torplow in the 1891 census - and you will also find the family as Triplow on other sites - but then Eliza disappears from records after this

Priscilla Torplow/Triplow

Eliza Torplow/Triplow

Louisa Torplow/Triplow

Ruth Torplow/Triplow

[kiterunner]

There is a Cecilia Lovell at 1 Damer Terrace, Chelsea, on the 1894 electoral register:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1795/40020_214746-01391/96613567?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdbid%3d1795%26gsfn%3dcecilia%26gsl n%3dlovell%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26cp%3d0%26hc %3d20%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26fh%3d20%26fsk%3dMDsxO TsyMA-61--61-%26uidh%3dvm5%26redir%3dfalse&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
and on the 1901 electoral register at 67B Tregunter Rd, Kensington and 30 Cremorne Rd, Chelsea.

[Lorraine Karen]

Yes Violet was born at 109 Finborough Road - I look through all the records every so often now to see if any other records have become available - or if a living family member going through Great-Aunt Mabel's papers discovers she was actually called Eliza Thrasher or Violet Jezard or another family going through Great-Uncle Edwin's records discovers he was actually called Edward Leslie Court.

With Horace, the Earls Of Devon are styled as Lord Courtenay - there was an Earl who was known to have several illegitimate children in the 1890's - the Earl died in January 1891 and unfortunately Horace was born in January 1893 - even if Horace's mother had not registered Horace's birth in a timely manner it's stretching the imagination too far for this man to be the father - unfortunately the next very religious Earl destroyed any papers relating to these illegitimate children. When asking if the family knew anything about Horace Courtenay born in 1893 the Earls Of Devon did ask 'is he one of ours' ! When Horace died in 1959 his solicitors were unable to trace his birth certificate as he had been registered as Horace Thrasher, the earliest we know Horace as Horace Courtenay is 1901.

[kiterunner]

I guess you have already seen Horace and wife Adelaide plus Grace Solomon on the 1939 Register:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61596/tna_r39_1347_1347e_017/13963811?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdbid%3d61596%26gsfn%3dhorace%26gsf n_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26cp%3d0%26msbdy%3d1893%26msb dy_x%3d1%26msbdm%3d1%26msbdm_x%3d1%26msbdd%3d2%26m sbdd_x%3d1%26hc%3d20%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26uidh%3 dvm5%26redir%3dfalse%26msT%3d1&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

If you can find exact date of birth for Violet we can look for her on there too (just realised Edward had emigrated before 1939!)

[Lorraine Karen]

Your Cecilia Lovells sound like the same person as our Sacillia Lovell living in the Kensington and Chelsea areas - can't find her in any census in those areas - just wondered who she was and what her profession was.

Thank you!

[Lorraine Karen]

Yes thanks have found the family in 1939 census, poor Herbert Solomon had died in 1936.

Horace, Adelaide and Michael Courtenay and Grace Solomon then went to live in Blackpool for the duration of World War Two so that Horace could continue his war work as the government was getting bombed out in London during the Blitz - we think he was responsible for lighthouses during the war but no records seem to survive of this and then he worked for the Department Of Employment as on his death certificate.

[Lorraine Karen]

Thank you Phoenix

The period of illegitimate children and family going missing is the 1890's and early 1900's.

Having looked at where the family lived on various records they seem to be living in quite middle class or even wealthy areas of London - daughter Louisa Thrasher is found in a boarding school in Chelsea/Mayfair in the 1881 census unfortunately no records survive telling us what Louisa was being taught - servants skills, theatrical skills, middle-class home keeping skills - and why not all the girls at boarding school unless they each went for limited periods - Priscilla is a widow as Robert Thrasher died in 1879.

I think the family must have erred on the side of informality as Priscilla supports her daughters with their children without husbands.

[Lorraine Karen]

Found it! Violet's birth on her birth certificate is 30 October 1890.

Thanks for your help.

[kiterunner]

Ancestry has two Violets with that date of birth on the 1939 Register:

Violet Clark nee Hammersley, wife of Charles J Clark - they married Jan-Mar 1912 West Ham, but I haven't found her birth record yet to rule her out. Their son has MMN Hammersley, so it's not her previous married name.

Violet J[ane] Darbyshire, nee Hollst, wife of James H Darbyshire - they married Jul-Sep 1925 Bethnal Green. There is a birth index entry for her, so we can rule her out.

Findmypast lists some other possibles but I don't know whether they have full dates of birth as I haven't got a sub. (Will check them on ancestry in a little while.)

[kiterunner]

I have found Violet Hammersley on census records for 1891, 1901 and 1911, so we can rule her out.

[Lorraine Karen]

Thank you very much!

I'll look into those people further see if I can spot anything else.

It was from using family history forums we found out what happened to Ruth - another more experienced person found a Ruth Jezzard Congdon (our Ruth Jezard) - then from
that we were able to find out the next part of Ruth's amazing story in San Francisco

Thanks again!

[Lorraine Karen]

Beat me to it!

[kiterunner]

Okay, I've been through the other possibles from Findmypast and ruled them out too - they were entries with date of birth 30 Oct and unclear years. In most cases the year had been corrected but neither the original year nor the corrected one was 1890.

[Lorraine Karen]

Thank you!

I haven't been able to trace Eliza Thrasher/Torplow/Triplow/Jezard getting married, in a census after 1891 (is known as Torplow/Triplow in 1891) or dying and the same for Violet (Jezard in 1901) - they both disappear. Again a family history forum found Priscilla and her daughters including Eliza in 1891 as Torplow/Triplow with Priscilla saying she came from Cardiff (and not Hartest) - and from that discovery found out more and more.

Do you think they changed their names again?

With Edward Leslie Court who emigrated in 1926, the Canadian Family History Societies have kindly looked for us but also advised their Canadian Records are unreliable - he wouldn't need to change his name would he? I wonder if Edward ever went across the Canadian border into America to visit his mother Ruth in San Francisco?

[Lorraine Karen]

Please does anyone know why Violet was baptised age 6 and Horace baptised age 3 and baptised together as cousins (they were living together with their grandmother and possibly mothers at 133 Finborough Road, Kensington).

Have always been under the impression that children were baptised as soon as possible in case they died soon after birth.

[Lorraine Karen]

Please can you help.

Louisa Thrasher was born in 1873, Kensington.

She had three sisters, Eliza, Alice and Ruth born 1879 - their father Robert Thrasher died in 1879.

In the 1881 census Louisa is found in a boarding school, Chelsea, Mayfair.

http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/list/LondonW.shtml

In the 1881 census her mother Priscilla, sisters Eliza, Alice and Ruth (later Ruth Jezard) are living in a boarding house, Chelsea, Belgrave their mother a cook.

The head of the boarding school is Catherine Poetl, Matron with the School Service - what exactly was the School Service?

What type of boarding school is this - is it teaching middle class skills, servants skills, theatrical skills, a reform school, a pauper school if Priscilla is unable to cope financially/emotionally/physically with four young daughters?

The girls at the boarding school are mostly very local to that area of London and mostly their mothers are widows - were there special schools to help widows?

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Phoenix]

Please does anyone know why Violet was baptised age 6 and Horace baptised age 3 and baptised together as cousins (they were living together with their grandmother and possibly mothers at 133 Finborough Road, Kensington).

Have always been under the impression that children were baptised as soon as possible in case they died soon after birth.

In the country, and in an earlier period, children would be baptised very close to birth. By the end of the C19th they tended to be nearer a month old. Before civil registration, baptism was an important proof of parenthood, helpful if you needed to claim poor relief. But if you lived in a town, you were far less likely to be swooped upon by a zealous vicar. And you could claim you were non-conformist. In London, plenty of children were baptised late, or in different denominations, or not at all.

btw, have you considered that Sacillia and Priscilla might be the same person?

[kiterunner]

Please does anyone know why Violet was baptised age 6 and Horace baptised age 3 and baptised together as cousins (they were living together with their grandmother and possibly mothers at 133 Finborough Road, Kensington).

Have always been under the impression that children were baptised as soon as possible in case they died soon after birth.

They were in earlier centuries, but not so much by that time because infant mortality was much lower. And not so much emphasis was placed on religious observance by then.

[kiterunner]

The head of the boarding school is Catherine Poetl, Matron with the School Service - what exactly was the School Service?


It doesn't say that she was with "the School Service" - her occupation was written in as Matron and then one of the people who extracted and categorised the census data wrote in "Sch Service" to show what category her occupation was to be classed as.

[Merry]

I couldn't find out much about the school. I think the "school service" notation has been added to the information written by the census enumerator to show what sort of matron Catherine was. The address 2 Market Mews wasn't a school in 1871 or 1891.

[kiterunner]

Lorraine, did you get any answers about the school on the forum linked to below? I can't read the answers posted because I don't have an account but I assume you do.
https://forum.familyhistory.uk.com/threads/catherine-poetl-boarding-school.22964/

[kiterunner]

I have a feeling Catherine's surname might be Scott, not Poetl, but not found anything to confirm it yet. Or perhaps Poett.

[Lorraine Karen]

Thank you Phoenix

Violet and Horace were baptised outside of their parish having contacted the vicar there, so they weren't claiming parish relief, neither have we found any bastardy bonds or scandalous stories for the mothers claiming support from the fathers in the newspapers or courts. It seems that Priscilla was a very understanding and supportive mother to Violet's mother Eliza and Horace's mother Alice Thrasher/Grace Courtenay. Where was Violet in the 1891 census, have they hidden her in a room or taken her out so she wouldn't be registered - but why - Eliza's 'husband' doesn't appear either! Priscilla died in 1900 and Violet and Horace are sent to a boarding school in Southend in 1901, Alice Thrasher/Grace Courtenay found in boarding house living on own means in Kensington - an allowance? Why did Alice/Grace and Horace change their names from Thrasher to Courtenay (not by marriage).

Well that's a very good suggestion, PrisCILLA and SACILLIA or CeCILIA - Priscilla is living in Archel Road in the 1894 electoral register and Sacillia Lovell is living in Damer Terrace in the 1894 electoral register - the roads are 1.5 miles away - could someone register twice using two different names - why have two addresses?

Priscilla's daughter Louisa married Percy Frederick Atkins in 1905 - Percy uses Percy Thresher/Thrasher in the electoral registers but Atkins in the 1911 census - and he is a well known theatrical business manager reported in The Era, The Stage, other regional newspapers.

We only found this family because Grace and Horace were living separately, Grace married in 1901 after the 1901 census and Edward Leslie Court, Horace's cousin is living with Grace in the 1911 census - without this historical good luck not only would it have been impossible to trace this family and their story but also proving all the name changes!

Thanks for your help.

[Lorraine Karen]

Thank you Merry and Kiterunner

Nothing was ever found about the school or the matron Catherine, the local archives had no information on the school either, why would Louisa be in a boarding school away from her family - but so close by when her mother and sisters are in Chelsea, Belgrave and the boarding school is in Chelsea, Mayfair.

Catherine Poet died in 1885, born 1820, St George, Hanover Square, London

3 Market Mews is stables by 1901! Advertised in the newspaper.

[Merry]

Here's Catherine in 1861:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8767/MDXRG9_44_46-0239/233282?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return

Born Donington Shropshire as before, aged 40, married (no husband listed) dressmaker at 10 Shepherd St, St George Hanover Square.

In 1851 she does have a husband! A butler named John Poets who is a British Subject born in France. They are at the same address as 1861.

I haven't found her in 1871 as yet. (or John Po*t* anywhere else!!)

This might be them:

Marriages Sep 1848

PALMER Catharine St Geo Han Sqr 1 63
Poets Jannot S. Geo Han Sqr. 1 63

Unfortunately I can't find an image for this marriage. I looked for her just in case she turned out to be connected to the family you are looking for, but I suppose it could be very difficult to know one way or the other!

There's also this birth in the right place:

POETS, JEAN BAPTISTE
WILDERE
GRO Reference: 1855 M Quarter in SAINT GEORGE HANOVER SQUARE Volume 01A Page 192

but different surname for Catherine and no sign of a death for Jean Baptiste.

I think Jean Baptiste may be a red herring as there is a baptism for Catherine Palmer at Lilleshall in Shropshire 27 Aug 1820 and the abode is Donington Wood. Parents are Moses (a miner) and Anne.

[Phoenix]

Well that's a very good suggestion, PrisCILLA and SACILLIA or CeCILIA - Priscilla is living in Archel Road in the 1894 electoral register and Sacillia Lovell is living in Damer Terrace in the 1894 electoral register - the roads are 1.5 miles away - could someone register twice using two different names - why have two addresses?.

Have you found Sacillia after 1894 or Priscilla before 1894 in the electoral record?

If not, it is possible that she moved and took up a new identity with the move.

I don't know the process for recording voters in Victorian elections, but imagine it was much as now: a fairly broad period of time in which you could register your intention to vote. If Sacillia is a voter straddling the 1891 census, she ought to appear somewhere in the area.

Nor do I know how the details were recorded, but if a clerk noted them, that could account for the number of "spelling mistakes", use of pet names etc.

[Lorraine Karen]

Thank you all.

Catherine Poet died 1885, the Matron of the boarding school where Louisa was boarding in 1881. Why would she be boarding when her family is living so close by, don't understand this at all, one less child to look after as her mother is a widow? Most of the girls there are born in the local London area and most of their mothers are widows.

Another forum has found Catherine Poet's burial records at Brompton Cemetery, the school where she worked is listed as Christ Church Schools.

We've looked up wedding witnesses, people boarding with the family, all available people on documents associated to this family, you never know what you might find!

We did find that when Louisa's sister Ruth Thrasher/Ruby Jezard married Albert Edward Court in 1900 their wedding witnesses were Arthur Brooks comedian, later gramaphone pioneer and Albert Kingsley artist!

The pattern I noticed with name changes are:
Violet Jezard is born in 1890 to Eliza Thrasher/Eliza Jezard - not married
The family then change their name to Torplow/Triplow in 1891 census - but Violet is not with her mother Eliza in the census or found in the census at all

Horace Thrasher later Horace Courtenay is born in 1893 to Alice Thrasher later Grace Courtenay (not marriage)
Priscilla then starts using Priscilla Jezard in the 1894 electoral register and she is found as Priscilla Jezard up until 1900 in the Kensington/Fulham areas as she dies in 1900

Sacillia Lovell is in the 1889, 1890 and 1891 electoral registers in the Chelsea/Kensington areas

Cecilia Lovell is in the 1894 electoral register

Have not been able to find an appropriate Sacillia Lovell/Cecilia Lovell in the 1891 census

How is a woman able to vote at this time period?

[kiterunner]

Some women could vote in local elections - see Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage_in_the_United_Kingdom

[Phoenix]

There were several categories of voters in the 1800s. Women could vote in local elections, but not in national ones. They appear in a separate category. Unfortunately, the electoral rolls do not describe the categories, but I think renting a property over a certain value. So widows and spinsters living independently would be eligible.

It has been glossed over recently, but universal male suffrage only started in 1918, and some women had a limited franchise before labouring males did.

[Phoenix]

Some women could vote in local elections - see Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage_in_the_United_Kingdom

That's interesting, Kite. Rates books - in Croydon at least - are riddled with errors, so if that's where the details were gleaned from it would explain some of the inaccuracies I've found.

[Lorraine Karen]

Thank you both very interesting.

Now Priscilla has another name change!

Priscilla May Pope born 1841 Hartest
Priscilla May Thrasher married to Robert Thrasher (no marriage found), 1871 census with daughter Eliza
Priscilla Torplow/Triplow 1891 census
Priscilla Jezard 1899 London Electoral Register 133 Finborough Road
May Jezard 1899 Post Office Directory 133 Finborough Road apartments

Her daughters Eliza, Alice, Louisa and Ruth regularly change their names also and I suspect granddaughter Violet also changed her name, as grandson Horace had too! Even grandson Edward Leslie Court is known as Leslie by 1911.

Not even sure if Robert Thrasher actually is 'Robert Thrasher'!

Another illegitimate child living at 133 Finborough Road while Priscilla lived at the property was baptised at the same church where Horace and Violet (both illegitimate) were baptised.

Just found out from Kensington Local Archives Priscilla owned 133 Finborough Road, which entitled her to vote at local elections.
Her husband Robert may have left a legacy (but she is renting in 1881 and 1891).
In 1891 Priscilla and her daughters are dressmakers, who could become quite wealthy making costumes for the theatre and lavish fancy dress balls held by the aristocracy so she is then able to buy a property

I wonder now then if the daughters sold the house in 1900 and shared the proceeds between them, Eliza's daughter Violet is in the boarding school with Alice/Grace's son Horace in 1901, Alice/Grace is living on own means in a boarding house (thought an allowance from the father before, perhaps now proceeds from house) in 1901, Louisa is working as a servant in 1901 but marries in 1905 and Ruth marries in 1900.

I read an article years ago about baptisms and illegitimate children and some scandal involving this in the 1890's in the Kensington area but unfortunately can't find again, I wonder if Priscilla was involved in some sort of scam?

[Merry]

Not even sure if Robert Thrasher actually is 'Robert Thrasher'!

That's what I thought when I saw his place of birth was the same as the street where he was living on his single census entry!

Have you found him on any other census?

[kiterunner]

Her husband Robert may have left a legacy (but she is renting in 1881 and 1891).


There is no entry in the National Probate Calendar for Robert Thrasher / Thresher around 1879.

[Merry]

Another illegitimate child living at 133 Finborough Road while Priscilla lived at the property was baptised at the same church where Horace and Violet (both illegitimate) were baptised.

Who was that?

[kiterunner]

That's what I thought when I saw his place of birth was the same as the street where he was living on his single census entry!

Have you found him on any other census?

This could be him in 1841, in Hampshire, "Y" for born in county:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8978/HAMHO107_401_402-0158?pid=2383112&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx10262&_phstart=successSource


Southampton as a birthplace on the 1871 census could possibly mean the county, i.e. Hampshire, rather than the town itself.

[Merry]

Southampton as a birthplace on the 1871 census could possibly mean the county, i.e. Hampshire, rather than the town itself.

True.

[Lorraine Karen]

That's what I thought when I saw his place of birth was the same as the street where he was living on his single census entry!

Have you found him on any other census?

Ha, ha - that's exactly what I thought too - keeping up with cover stories is hard work!

For sure only found Robert in the 1871 census with wife Priscilla and daughter Eliza.

Cannot find Robert in 1851 census or 1861 census.

Robert Thrasher a servant in 1841 census is a possibility but with no marriage certificate and baptism to cross-reference his family will never know or be able to go back any further

Southampton became a county borough under the Local Government Act 1888
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Southampton
Southampton was known as a region rather than just a city before this

The 1879 death for Robert Thrasher we assume is our Robert as Priscilla is a widow by 1881 - on Robert's death certificate he is a fireman - the fire brigade say he is not a fireman as they have no records of him - so another alternative as the family is theatrical is working as a theatre fireman.

In 1851 census and 1861 census Robert could have been abroad as a sailor and when back on land hired by theatres as a stagehand being a rigger as sailors knew how to handle ropes and tie knots and also had sewing skills from repairing sails, ropes and nets so also useful to the wardrobe department.

Drury Lane Theatre Tour
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/uk/days-out-behind-the-scenes-at-drury-lane-345027.html
We are shown entrances to other tunnels (long since closed off), one leading to Nell's house and one to the river. The latter was built so that stage "crew" - so called because most were sailors - could reach the theatre easily. The maritime connection also explains terms such as "docks" for scenery and "rigging" the stage, and the superstition that you mustn't whistle in the theatre: it interfered with the sailors' communication.

Thanks Merry and Kiterunner

[Merry]

Robert's death certificate he is a fireman

If he did come from the Southampton area he might have been a ship's fireman before he ended up in London. Might explain his absence from the census.

The 1879 death for Robert Thrasher we assume is our Robert as Priscilla is a widow by 1881

What address is on the death cert and who registered his death?

[Lorraine Karen]

Hello Kiterunner

Robert Thrasher died 1879
On his death certificate he died at the Charing Cross Hospital, Strand with no family present and his occupation a fireman
https://www.imperial.nhs.uk/about-us/who-we-are/our-history
With no family present to cross-reference and his job being a fireman wonder if he is our Robert but Priscilla is a widow by 1881

On another forum a member has found Priscilla buying 133 Finborough Road at an auction in 1895 - just by coincidence on the auction notice I spotted Messrs Lewin & Company of 32 Southampton Street, Strand, solicitors.

Robert Thrasher lived in Southampton Street in the 1871 census with wife Priscilla and daughter Eliza - on the 1871 census, his daughters baptisms, birth certificates and marriage certificates indicate he worked in legal occupations (secretary, process server, messenger), wonder now if he worked for Messrs Lewin & Company and if the solicitors advised theatres and actors in the Strand/Covent Garden area.

When Robert Thrasher dies in 1879 he is working as a fireman, presumably a theatre fireman, as the fire brigade have no record of him. Those in the Victorian legal professions were known to change careers to go and work in the theatre.

So from sailor, to legal, to theatre - is that possible?

[Lorraine Karen]

More missing Jezards!

When Priscilla dies in 1900 her 'daughter-in-law' Ellen Jezard is with her - Priscilla doesn't have a son to have a daughter-in-law - who is Ellen! Priscilla is the widow of 'John Jezard' but he doesn't exist either, aaaggghhh - this family!

[Merry]

Daughter in law commonly could mean step-daughter, but not usually of an imaginary spouse!

What was the address where Priscilla died?

[Merry]

Another illegitimate child living at 133 Finborough Road while Priscilla lived at the property was baptised at the same church where Horace and Violet (both illegitimate) were baptised.


Who was that?

[Lorraine Karen]

Daughter in law commonly could mean step-daughter, but not usually of an imaginary spouse!

What was the address where Priscilla died?

Priscilla died in Charing Cross Hospital, Strand
widow of John Jezard 133 Finborough Road
'John Jezard' is probably her common law husband who I suspect has another name who probably had a son then, so that 'Ellen' could be the daughter in law or if his daughter her step-daughter and I suspect with another name - could even be her own daughter Eliza - but I think we'll never know!

Could Priscilla have made up the existence of John Jezard so that she could own her property?

When Priscilla's daughters marry Priscilla's husband Robert Thrasher is called:
Robert Jezard
Robert Courtenay
Robert Thrasher

[Merry]

133 Finborough Road

I see this property was unoccupied in 1901.

[Phoenix]

Could Priscilla have made up the existence of John Jezard?



When is John Jezard mentioned? If the only reference is on Priscilla's death certificate and Ellen is providing the details, then Ellen's father probably was a John. If Ellen wasn't married to/cohabiting with a Jezzard, all bets are off. There are innumerable errors/lies on my family certificates that I know about (three separate ones on sib's) which would confuse future researchers. Priscilla could not change any details she was unhappy about.

[kiterunner]

Was your copy of Priscilla's death certificate a scan / photocopy of the original handwritten certificate, Lorraine, or was it a version which had been copied out or typed up by the register office? If the latter then I can easily imagine them mistranscribing Eliza as Ellen.

[Lorraine Karen]

I see this property was unoccupied in 1901.

Thanks Merry - is that on the 1901 census - looked through but can't see 133 - you can't look up just the address on the census can you?

[Phoenix]

Does Triplow appear in a single instance on the 1891 census? My mind is working in the same way as Kite's, and having seen gross mistranscriptions where the enumerator is writing up the badly scribbled household forms into his book, Triplow and Thrasher could be muddled if an h from the line below made the s or a look like a p.

[Merry]

In general people named Jezard seem to live in Kent (not the London part) except for Henry John Jezard who had a child in Strand registration district in 1901. He was a railway porter in 1901/1911 and on his 1899 marriage cert. He doesn't feel right at all for your theatrical family (plus he is only the age of Priscilla's children)!!

In 1901 Henry John is living at Peabody Buildings and I've seen that address whilst looking for stuff for this thread, but I don't know what now. :(

[Merry]

Does Triplow appear in a single instance on the 1891 census? My mind is working in the same way as Kite's, and having seen gross mistranscriptions where the enumerator is writing up the badly scribbled household forms into his book, Triplow and Thrasher could be muddled if an h from the line below made the s or a look like a p.

I agree that it could well be a gross mistranscription. Going from Suffolk to Cardiff for place of birth only makes it more likely imho.

[Lorraine Karen]

When is John Jezard mentioned? If the only reference is on Priscilla's death certificate and Ellen is providing the details, then Ellen's father probably was a John. If Ellen wasn't married to/cohabiting with a Jezzard, all bets are off. There are innumerable errors/lies on my family certificates that I know about (three separate ones on sib's) which would confuse future researchers. Priscilla could not change any details she was unhappy about.

Hello Phoenix

John Jezard is only mentioned in 1900 on Priscilla's death certificate

When Priscilla's daughter Ruth Thrasher/Ruth Jezard/Ruby Jezard marries in 1900 she calls her father Robert Jezard

Perhaps Priscilla had a common law husband John Jezard after Robert Thrasher died - who I also think was a common law husband

[Lorraine Karen]

Was your copy of Priscilla's death certificate a scan / photocopy of the original handwritten certificate, Lorraine, or was it a version which had been copied out or typed up by the register office? If the latter then I can easily imagine them mistranscribing Eliza as Ellen.

Hi Kiterunner

The death certificate is a copy of the original handwritten certificate and clearly says Ellen Jezard - but mistakes can be made - seen those too - on top of all these name changes!

[Lorraine Karen]

Does Triplow appear in a single instance on the 1891 census? My mind is working in the same way as Kite's, and having seen gross mistranscriptions where the enumerator is writing up the badly scribbled household forms into his book, Triplow and Thrasher could be muddled if an h from the line below made the s or a look like a p.

One family history site comes up with Triplow, another family history site comes up with Torplow - Triplow and Torplow ONLY come up on the 1891 census

Priscilla must be trying to hide - she says she comes from Cardiff when she is born in Hartest, Suffolk

[Lorraine Karen]

In general people named Jezard seem to live in Kent (not the London part) except for Henry John Jezard who had a child in Strand registration district in 1901. He was a railway porter in 1901/1911 and on his 1899 marriage cert. He doesn't feel right at all for your theatrical family (plus he is only the age of Priscilla's children)!!

In 1901 Henry John is living at Peabody Buildings and I've seen that address whilst looking for stuff for this thread, but I don't know what now. :(

Thank you, I know they are a conundrum!

[kiterunner]

It does actually say Triplow on the census page, although at first glance it looked like Torplow. If you look carefully there are dots over the i's.

[Merry]

It does actually say Triplow on the census page, although at first glance it looked like Torplow. If you look carefully there are dots over the i's.

That's exactly what I was going to say!

[Phoenix]

I also feel that Cardiff could be a misreading of Hartest. Once put the suggestion of Cardiff into someone's mind, and Suff or even no county at all has to be South Wales.

[Merry]

Priscilla must be trying to hide - she says she comes from Cardiff when she is born in Hartest, Suffolk .

My previous post about this doesn't see to be here! I agree with Phoenix - we can't see the householders handwriting for 1881, so we don't know what scribble the enumerator turned into Triplow and Cardiff.

[Lorraine Karen]

Yes there do seem to be posts missing from later conversations

[Lorraine Karen]

Good afternoon all

This is the story of mystery and intrigue - another one!
Please help find Claude Henry Uhthoff born 1897 in the 1901 census or could have been sent abroad to live on the continent or to America

Horace Thrasher (later known as Horace Courtenay) was baptised with his cousin Violet Jezard in 1896 while living at 133 Finborough Road with their grandmother Priscilla Thrasher (maiden name Pope) but now known as Priscilla Jezard.

Both Horace and Violet have false parents on their birth certificates and baptisms and are baptised outside of their parish.

Priscilla bought 133 Finborough Road in 1895 at auction and is renting apartments as Mrs May Jezard.

I wanted to try and find further Thrasher/Jezard/Courtenay children living in Finborough Road where Violet had been born or Archel Road where Horace had been born.

Instead I found another baby Claude Henry Uhthoff who had been born at 150 Finborough Road and baptised at the same church as Horace and Violet when living at 133 Finborough Road.

Violet is born in 1890 but not found in the 1891 census, she is at a boarding school with Horace in the 1901 census and then disappears.

Horace's father according to family rumour was an 'illustrious member of the aristocracy, a person of considerable note' and he is found age 7 in the 1901 census with Violet at the girls boarding school - he hated it there!

Claude Henry Uhthoff is born in 1897
Father Enrique Anthony Uhthoff is born in 1875
Mother Annie Louisa Brooks is born abt 1880
Step-father Arthur Henry Parnell is born in 1876

Great-grandfather Henry Roman Uhthoff dies in 1884 leaving a fortune of £166,665 to his son Ludolfe Enrique Uhthoff
http://www.in2013dollars.com/1884-GBP-in-2017?amount=116665
That is £13 million pounds in today's money

1891 census Ludolfe Enrique is a wealthy foreign merchant from Mexico, a Spanish subject and his son Enrique Anthony Uhthoff is living with the family

1891 census Annie is living at home with her parents Edwin and Jane

1891 Arthur is at home with his parents, his father Henry is a corn merchant and miller

1897 Claude Henry Uhthoff is born to Enrique Anthony Uhthoff a merchants clerk and to Annie Louisa Uhthoff formerly Brooks
THERE IS NO MARRIAGE
BORN AT 150 FINBOROUGH ROAD

1897 baptism Claude Henry Uhthoff to unmarried parents Enrique Uhthoff and Annie Uhthoff, Henry is a family name
LIVING AT 133 FINBOROUGH ROAD, APARTMENTS OF MRS MAY JEZARD AND HER MANY OTHER NAMES BESIDES

1901 census Enrique is nowhere to be found but travels to and from the US frequently, could also be on the continent or America with Claude

1901 census Annie is living in residential chambers with other servants before her marriage to Arthur

1901 census Arthur is nowhere to be found but travels to and from the US frequently

1901 census Claude is not living with Annie's parents Edwin and Jane or living with the grandfather Ludolfe or father Enrique or other Uhthoff family in ENGLAND

1901 Annie Louisa Brooks marries Arthur Henry Parnell

1903 grandfather Ludolfe dies and leaves his estate of £14,841 to son Enrique, Ludolfe died in Switzerland
DID THE FAMILY TAKE CLAUDE ABROAD TO THE CONTINENT
http://www.in2013dollars.com/1903-GBP-in-2017?amount=14841
That is £1.7 million pounds in today's money

1905 US census Claude is found in St Joseph's School, New Jersey

Annie Louisa Parnell and Claude Henry Parnell regularly travel between England and the US to meet Mr Parnell

1906 Enrique marries Kathleen Collinson

1910 US census Arthur, Annie and Claude are together and Arthur declares that he and Annie have been married for 14 years when they have actually been married for 9 years to protect his wife and step-son from any shame, they have a Japanese servant

Enrique regularly travels from England to the US as he is a foreign merchant but could also be seeing his son

1914 Annie sadly dies and Arthur does not remarry

1923 Claude marries Hilda Mary Chare and Claude states his father is Arthur, the kind man who married his mother and not Enrique, does he know who his birth father is

1939 census Enrique is a retired bank manager living in Surrey, his wife has a lady's companion

1939 census Claude is a press photographer and living in Surrey, did he know about his birth father Enrique, did they meet in Surrey

1948 Enrique dies leaving his estate of £3,275 to his widow Kathleen
http://www.in2013dollars.com/1903-GBP-in-1948?amount=3275
That's almost £11,000 in today's money

So 133 Finborough Road is a hot bed of intrigue!

Violet born 1890 does not appear in the 1891 census
Horace born 1893 changes his name by 1901 census
Claude born 1897 does not appear in the 1901 census
All live at 133 Finborough Road
All were baptised at the same church
Violet's father we have absolutely no idea, an aristocrat, met through the theatre?
Horace's father is rumoured to be of the aristocracy, met through the theatre, we'll just never know
Claude's father Enrique came from a wealthy family

I seem to remember reading an article about children being baptised to parents who were pretending to be married and being paid to keep quiet in the Kensington area in late Victorian times but alas can't find again, read a long, long time ago, just as starting this research and didn't realise the significance then.

It's been a fascinating journey, thanks Violet, Horace and Claude.

Thanks Genealogists' Forum too for all your help and interest!

[kiterunner]

I seem to remember reading an article about children being baptised to parents who were pretending to be married and being paid to keep quiet in the Kensington area in late Victorian times but alas can't find again, read a long, long time ago, just as starting this research and didn't realise the significance then.


But the children who you mention were also registered at the register office as though their parents were married too, weren't they? And long before they were baptised.

[Lorraine Karen]

Yes that's right one set of parents on their birth certificates and a different set of parents on their baptisms.

[Phoenix]

You were fined if you did not register the birth of a child. So you got it registered. If you wanted to appear respectable, you said you were married.

When Best Mate's great aunt was faced with this situation, she lost her head completely. She had already said her surname was her maiden name. The only man's name she could think of off the top of her head was her brother's. Do we think this was incest? Of course not.

What you then did was get what is now called the short certificate. This simply had name and date of birth, no parents' names. Whoever got the children baptised either did not know or remember what was on the certificate.

[Lorraine Karen]

Thanks Phoenix

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Register_Office_for_England_and_Wales
Until 1926, there were no registrations at all of still born children. For illegitimate children, the original 1836 legislation provided that "it shall not be necessary to register the name of any father of a bastard child." From 1850, instructions to registrars were clarified to state that, "No putative father is allowed to sign an entry in the character of 'Father'." However, the law was changed again 1875 to allow a father of an illegitimate child to record his name on his child's birth certificate if he attended the register office with the mother. Wikipedia.

Short certificate
Long Certificate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_certificate

I wonder why birth registrations were setup with short certificates and long certificates, were they used for different purposes - and also the registrars not asking for your birth certificates when registering your marriage and your marriage certificate when registering your baby's birth in those moralising finger pointing times - were the authorities expecting people to be honest / did the registrars ever check up on information given to fine or imprison offenders as an example to others?

Were baptism records, birth certificates and marriage certificates precious documents in earlier times or did people give a variety of reasons why they didn't have these personal documents.

People die in all sorts of circumstances so obtaining their baptism, birth and marriage records could be difficult unless family and friends know where they were stored or the authorities searched the premises for any documentation if living alone.

[Olde Crone]

There was (and still is) a hefty fine for deliberately giving wrong information, so informants were trusted to be truthful. It wasn't the registrar's job to ascertain the truth unless he suspected serious fraud. Many people lied and most of them got away with it.

I must look shifty because when the registrar visited me in hospital aftrr the birth of one of my children, he asked if I was married (routine question) and when I said yes, promptly asked me the date of my marriage!

Short certificates were issued free at the time of registration. Long certificates had to be paid for and most people couldn't see the point of that, so didn't bother.

OC

[Lorraine Karen]

Thank you OC - very interesting!

Probably couldn't afford to buy the long certificates also.