View Full Version : Could my West family be aristocratic?
The Wannabe Toff
04-05-19, 13:47
One brick wall I have been BANGING my head against for nearly two years now is the family of my four-times-great-grandfather, Jobe Henry West. He was a brewer, born in Chatham, Kent in 1802 and died in Croydon on 23 July 1880. Beer will always be a business, however in his will he left behind close to £21,000 - £2.5 million in today's money! This makes me think he may have been from a well-off family. Someone who was working on the same branch sent me evidence of an aural tradition passed down through my West family - according to Jobe's sister Sarah, their father was a son of a peer who had large estates in Camden Town, but the son - a John West - never claimed his inheritance as he was apprenticed to a builder who business he took over. He apparently abandoned that business to escape compulsory service in the Napoleonic War and took a job in the Chatham dockyard, returning to London later to be buried in St. John's, Hoxton. More of the tradition is that Jobe's brother James claimed a link to the Sackville-West family, but unfortunately it was said written evidence of a noble connection was stolen from James' son never to resurface. I DO know that John West definitely lies in the St. John's, Hoxton graveyard, so it may not be such a tall tale as it looks. I have found daguerreotypes of Jobe's siblings Edward, Mary, James and Eleanor uploaded by various people on their Ancestry trees, so I'm wondering if Jobe also exists in someone's family treasures somewhere. If you're descended from this family in any way, I'd like to know if you have pictures or viable research/evidence.
kiterunner
04-05-19, 14:45
Starting with his baptism, Job Henry West was baptised 4 Apr 1802 at Chatham, the son of John and Eleanor. Then he married Catharine Christiana Wells 9 Oct 1822 at St Luke Old Street, Finsbury, London.
Other children of John and Eleanor baptised at Chatham:
James William 22 Nov 1795
Elaner 18 Feb 1798
Esther 18 Dec 1803
I haven't found images of the baptisms yet to see whether there are details of John's occupation.
Job's marriage record is on ancestry:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31280_194904-00537?pid=2229773&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ctf12560&_phstart=successSource
The marriage was by banns and it says he was a minor and had consent of parents. Witnesses Richard Wells and Susannah Wells. I was hoping one of the witnesses would be a West!
kiterunner
04-05-19, 14:55
If John West / Eleanor Birt 7 Oct 1787 St Clement Danes, Westminster, is the correct marriage for the parents, then Findmypast has images but I haven't got a sub to view them. There might be some clues in there as to John's background.
kiterunner
04-05-19, 14:56
I have to say, though, I don't see why being apprenticed to a builder and taking over his business would stop someone claiming their inheritance?
The Wannabe Toff
04-05-19, 20:09
I have to say, though, I don't see why being apprenticed to a builder and taking over his business would stop someone claiming their inheritance?
Perhaps he just wanted a simpler life and found peace in the building business, turning his back on what was coming to him - just a theory of course. I've found his will dated 1834 (the year he died) but I can't make head or tail of it, as particularly ancient cursive is not a strength of mine. (Should be the first will on the image in the link).
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5111/40611_311512-00050?pid=336342&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid%3D5111%26h%3D336342%26indiv%3Dtry%26o _vc%3DRecord:OtherRecord%26rhSource%3D9841&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true
If you are going to make a fortune in the 1800s, building and brewing are two very good options.
My Best Friend's several greats uncle died in 1884, leaving £15k. He was a builder, but in no way remarkable. He seems simply to have taken the opportunity of the times. The rest of the family were small tradesmen, several dying in the workhouse.
I note that by 1881 his Croydon home is unoccupied,
Sussex Maid
04-05-19, 20:46
The 1787 marriage at St Clement Danes has the following information
John West of this parish bachelor
Eleanor Birt of the same parish spinster
By Banns
John signed; Eleanor made her mark
Witnesses: Ann West and John Parkines
In the Name of God Amen I John West of No 10 Powis Place Haverstock Hill Hampstead Road in the County of Middlesex Gentleman being of sound and disposing mind memory and understanding do make this my last Will and Testament that is to say after the payment of all my just and lawful debts funeral expenses and the charges of proving this my will I give and bequeath unto my friend Frederick Boulton of Dalston in the County of Middlesex Gentleman the sum of nineteen pounds nineteen shillings for the purchase of a small piece of plate as a token of my regard for him and as to all the rest residue and remainder of my Personal Estate and Effects of whatever nature kind or quality soever either in reversion expectancy or otherwise as well (?) also all my Right Tithe and interest under and by virtue of a marriage settlement made and entered into by and between myself and my present wife Anna West heretofore Benson Widow bearing date the twenty sixth day of August one thousand eight hundred and twenty five I give and bequeath the same and every part and parcel thereof unto my dear and loving Sister Ann West Spinster for her own sole use and benefit absolutely forever And I hereby nominate constitute and appoint my said dear Sister Ann West sole executrix of this my Late Will and Testament hereby revoking all other Will or Wills by me at any time heretofore made In Witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and seal this first day of November in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and thirty John West SS Signed sealed and delivered by the said John West the Testator as and for his Last Will and Testament in the presence of us who in his presence at his request and in the presence of each other have subscribed our names as witnesses hereto E F Phillips clerk to Messrs Birkett Taylor and Cox Cloak Lane - Frederick H Boulton same
Proved at London 9th October 1834 before the Worshipful William Calverley Curteis Doctor of Laws and Surrogate by the Oath of Ann West Spinster the Sister the sole executrix to whom administration was granted having been first sworn duly to administer
ElizabethHerts
04-05-19, 20:53
This is the transcription of the will in the link, but I'm not sure about the connection to the people you are talking about!
In the Name of God Amen
I John West of No. 10 Powis Place Haverstock Hill Hampstead Road in the County of Middlesex Gentleman being of sound and disposing mind memory and understanding do make this my last Will and Testament that is to say after the payment of all my just and lawful debts Funeral expences and the charges of Proving this my Will I give and bequeath unto my Friend Frederick Boulton of Dalston in the County of Middlesex Gentleman the sum of nineteen pounds nineteen shillings for the purchase of a small piece of Plate as a token of my regard for him And as to all the Rest residue and remainder of my Personal Estate and Effects of whatever nature kind or quality soever either in reversion Expectancy or otherwise as well also all my Right Title and interest under and by virtue of a marriage Settlement made and entered into by and between myself and my present Wife Ann West heretofore Benson Widow bearing date the twenty sixth day of August one thousand eight hundred and twenty five I give and bequeath the same and every part and parcel thereof unto my dear and loving Sister Ann West Spinster for her own sole use and benefit absolutely for ever And I hereby nominate constitute and appoint my said dear Sister Ann West sole Executrix of this my last Will and Testament hereby revoking all other Will or Wills by me at any time heretofore made In Witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and seal this first day of November in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and thirty. John West Signed sealed and delivered by the said John West the Testator as and for his last will and Testament in the presence of us who in his presence at his request and in the presence of each other have subscribed our names as witnesses hereto. E. F. Phillips Cl.k to Mess.rs Birkett Taylor & Cox Cloak Lane Fred.k Boulton Same ./-
Proved at London 9th October 1834 before the Worshipful William Calverley Curtis doctor of Laws and Surrogate by the Oath of Ann West Spinster the Sister the sole Executrix to whom Administration was granted having been first sworn duly to administer.
ElizabethHerts
04-05-19, 20:53
Snap, Merry!
Here's the marriage referred to in the will:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31280_194677-00341/1929051?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlmamarriages%26gsfn%3djohn%26 gsln%3dwest%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26cp%3d11%26 mssng%3dann*%26mssns%3dbenson%26mssng_x%3d1%26mssn s_x%3d1%26msgdy%3d1825%26msgdy_x%3d1%26pcat%3d34%2 6qh%3d5UqzUxTooWwbsUo%252b5y8uAw%253d%253d%26hc%3d 50%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26uidh%3d672%26redir%3dfal se&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
There was a Faculty Office licence for the MARRIAGE, which might provide more details, but does anyone feel that that John West may not have had any surviving children? You would usually mention them, even if only leaving them small tokens.
lol Elizabeth - you made a better job of putting the capital letters in the right places!!
Here' the burial for the man who made the will. It's not the Hoxton burial you claim for your relative:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1559/31280_195040-00296/8902471?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlmadeaths%26gsfn%3djohn%26gsl n%3dwest%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26cp%3d11%26msd dy%3d1834%26msddy_x%3d1%26qh%3dFpgiDYzohqGRKTqche1 7Qw%253d%253d%26hc%3d50%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26uid h%3d672%26redir%3dfalse&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Olde Crone
04-05-19, 21:30
According to google, the West Brewery was founded in 1822 which would mean that Job would only have been 20, which seems a bit unlikely, so probably his father who founded it.
The Victorian era was the best ever time for rags to riches. My dirt poor lot rose from nothing to very comfortable middle class lives by virtue of sheer hard work. Right place, right time, right attitude.
OC
If John West / Eleanor Birt 7 Oct 1787 St Clement Danes, Westminster, is the correct marriage for the parents, then Findmypast has images but I haven't got a sub to view them. There might be some clues in there as to John's background.
Not much to go on really... both otp, bachelor and spinster, banns, he signed, she made her mark. Witnesses Ann West and John Parkins.
kiterunner
04-05-19, 21:55
Thanks, and we don't know whether it's the right John and Eleanor anyway.
Starting with his baptism, Job Henry West was baptised 4 Apr 1802 at Chatham, the son of John and Eleanor. Then he married Catharine Christiana Wells 9 Oct 1822 at St Luke Old Street, Finsbury, London.
Other children of John and Eleanor baptised at Chatham:
James William 22 Nov 1795
Elaner 18 Feb 1798
Esther 18 Dec 1803
Also
William James 24 Aug 1800
Eliza 02 Sep 1804
There's still a big gap between the 1787 marriage and the Nov 1795 baptism.
I do wonder about this marriage in Teddington in Feb 1795 between John West and Eleanor Nobes:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31280_199381-00172/4698329?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlmamarriages%26gsfn%3djohn%26 gsln%3dwest%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26cp%3d11%26 gskw%3dteddington%26gskw_x%3d1%26msgdy%3d1795%26ms gdy_x%3d1%26qh%3d4tSfpbbb9gM9JRSV73U08Q%253d%253d% 26hc%3d50%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26uidh%3d672%26redi r%3dfalse&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Pinefamily
05-05-19, 00:36
Brewing, and even more so malting, were lucrative trades. Several of my ancestors made their fortunes in these trades. So much so they were described as "gentlemen" in later life.
Pinefamily
05-05-19, 00:38
I do agree that with what you have found that it might not be the same couple.
More investigation is warranted into that Teddington couple.
Olde Crone
05-05-19, 07:14
Gentleman was just an honorary description of someone who did not work for a living. I have seen it applied on census to someone who was unemployed!
OC
I think, regretfully, that you have to cast a very wide net for a family in Chatham: Sunderland, Yarmouth, Portsmouth or Plymouth would be equally feasible for their origins.
I have West ancestors from Norfolk - not that I appear to carry any related chromosomes - and know that the male members of that family can all prove their kinship back to Stuart times with DNA.
I note that whilst we have these siblings for Job Henry West:
James William 22 Nov 1795
Elaner 18 Feb 1798
William James 24 Aug 1800
Esther 18 Dec 1803
Eliza 02 Sep 1804
….we haven't found Sarah, mentioned in the opening post..
according to Jobe's sister Sarah, their father was a son of a peer who had large estates in Camden Town
Last night I saw two baptisms in Holborn soon after the marriage between John West and Eleanor Birt and one of those was a Sarah, so, if they belong to the same couple as lived in Chatham then we can probably forget the Teddington marriage!
Holborn, British Lying-In Hospital, Endell Street
John West Baptism 7 Aug 1788 Holborn , Middlesex, John, Eleanor
Sarah West Baptism 10 Dec 1789 Holborn , Middlesex, John, Eleanor
There were two separate book entries for John, one of which gives his father's occupation and abode as a carpenter of Hornsey and that John jr was born 27 Jul 1788.
I could only find one entry for Sarah and couldn't locate an equivalent entry for her in the record with more detail, despite looking through the pages in case she wasn't indexed correctly.
One person has an ancestry tree giving Job's mother's name as Eleanor Farrell. They don't have a marriage for Eleanor and no indication of where the surname came from.
Olde Crone
05-05-19, 10:23
A nitpicky point - there was no compulsory service in Britain during the napoleonic wars, although there was a strong recruiting drive.
OC
kiterunner
05-05-19, 10:38
I wonder whether it is certain that Sarah was Job's sister?
A carpenter in Chatham is likely to have been employed by the dockyard.
There are good survivals of dockyard records - at least for Portsmouth - and I have found my people there.
It's worth checking artificers pay records at TNA. They are indexed and you get a man's age at entry, so you can follow him through his career.
kiterunner
05-05-19, 11:09
I wonder whether it is certain that Sarah was Job's sister?
To (try to) answer my own question, from looking at ancestry trees: James William West married Hester Yates 30 Jan 1821 at St Saviour, Southwark, and the witnesses were John West and Sarah West.
Eleanor West married Nathaniel Crossland 25 Dec 1817 at St Luke, Finsbury, witnesses John West, Sarah West, and Mary Ann Crossland.
So there was definitely a Sarah in the family.
Then there is a Mary Ann West who marries Edward Alfrey Parks 19 Mar 1815 at St Luke, Finsbury, witnesses John West and Sarah West. On the 1851 census Mary Ann's birthplace is Chatham, but I don't think we have found a baptism for her yet. The ancestry tree that I was looking at gives her dob as 26 Dec 1793 but I'm not sure where they got that from.
Anyway, it does look as though John and Sarah in post #24 could well belong to the same family as Job, in which case the 1787 marriage does fit with the dates.
kiterunner
05-05-19, 11:12
Oh, and Sarah West married William Unni Parks 12 Jun 1823 at St Luke, Finsbury, witnesses John West and Esther West.
Some bits and pieces from FMP newspaper records about Job Henry West (I've not transcribed fully, this is the jist!):
Morning Chronicle 03 November 1823
Partnerships dissolved: Job Henry West and Mary Forsyth of John St Curtain Road - brewers
17 October 1832 - Morning Post - London
From the London Gazette Oct 16th - Bankrupts - James William West and Job Henry West Turner's Square Hoxton brewers
17 March 1858 - London Evening Standard
Charles Stewart, an ex-policeman, was found guilty of having stolen a pint pewter pot, the property of Job Henry West.
Croydon Guardian and Surrey County Gazette 31 July 1880
West July 23rd at Katherine Villa Thornton Heath Croydon Job Henry West aged 78
Croydon Chronicle and East Surrey Advertiser 09 April 1881
A search for creditors etc following JHW's death. He is described as "formerly of Hackney Road, Middlesex but late of Thornton Heath Croydon.
Chelmsford Chronicle 10 March 1905
A claim is made upon the estate of JHW of a piece of land at Shaftesbury Road Leyton by Charles William Bowles of 181 Church Road Leyton. CWB lost the case.
London Evening Standard 21 July 1909
High Court of Justice Chancery Division - Not entirely sure what this is about as I cant tell where the details of one case end and the next begin!
I wonder if widow Mary Forsyth is of any importance?
Oh, and Sarah West married William Unni Parks 12 Jun 1823 at St Luke, Finsbury, witnesses John West and Esther West.
Oh, I saw Sarah Parks on the 1841 census with (her mother) Eleanor West, but at the time I wasn't sure it was the right Eleanor.
Then there is a Mary Ann West who marries Edward Alfrey Parks 19 Mar 1815 at St Luke, Finsbury, witnesses John West and Sarah West. On the 1851 census Mary Ann's birthplace is Chatham, but I don't think we have found a baptism for her yet.
A couple of trees have used a Chatham baptism for a Mary (Ann) West where the parents are actually William West and his wife, but have John and Eleanor as her parents on their trees!
As others have said on this thread, the Victorian era was one in which many ordinary people made a vast sum of money. My 4xg-aunt, daughter of a hat maker, married a chap, son of an umbrella maker. Her husband lived 1803-1893, so a similar time frame to your ancestor and when he died he left over £300,000 (I haven't worked out what that might equal today!) all made from selling tea. Could have been beer if he hadn't been teetotal!
I'm not saying the stories you have might not be true, just that it was possible to make a great deal from nothing if you got lucky and worked hard.
maggie_4_7
05-05-19, 12:22
As others have said on this thread, the Victorian era was one in which many ordinary people made a vast sum of money. My 4xg-aunt, daughter of a hat maker, married a chap, son of an umbrella maker. Her husband lived 1803-1893, so a similar time frame to your ancestor and when he died he left over £300,000 (I haven't worked out what that might equal today!) all made from selling tea. Could have been beer if he hadn't been teetotal!
I'm not saying the stories you have might not be true, just that it was possible to make a great deal from nothing if you got lucky and worked hard.
I think about £37 million or have I gone completely mad :D
I think about £37 million or have I gone completely mad :D
Probably lol! None of it has filtered in my direction :rolleyes:
kiterunner
05-05-19, 14:19
Wannabe Toff, one thing you could try if you haven't already done so, is to look through any West wills from around the right time to see whether they mention any of these people.
A nitpicky point - there was no compulsory service in Britain during the napoleonic wars, although there was a strong recruiting drive.
OC
Plus he "took a job in Chatham" a long time before the Napoleonic Wars began!
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