View Full Version : Ancestral DNA testing
kiterunner
13-01-19, 11:31
I read in one of the family history magazines that in the not too distant future, we may be able to test our ancestors' DNA using envelopes and stamps that they licked! So if you have any old letters or postcards, don't scan them in to your computer or photograph them and then throw them away.
ElizabethHerts
13-01-19, 11:35
You wouldn't have any proof of who did the licking, though! Sometimes OH puts the stamps on my letters or cards.
kiterunner
13-01-19, 11:43
Yes, I remember one time my mum sent me off to post a load of Christmas cards just in time to catch the last post and the postman helped me stick the stamps on!
kiterunner
13-01-19, 11:47
Oh wow, looks as though they are already doing it!
https://www.totheletterdna.com/envelopes-faqs/
I wonder whether there are other companies too?
kiterunner
13-01-19, 11:49
My Heritage will apparently be doing it soon:
https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/718020/myheritage-process-envelopes-virtual-deceased-ancestors
ElizabethHerts
13-01-19, 11:56
I've got my grandfather's diaries for three years and the letters he wrote to my grandmother before they married. I wonder if they would be acceptable?
I wish I hadn't thrown away the fur coat my mum wore when she was 2. Unfortunately the moths had got at it and it was in a terrible state.
ElizabethHerts
13-01-19, 11:57
I've got photo albums where someone licked the photo mounts.
Olde Crone
13-01-19, 14:07
Having worked in several offices where a damp sponge was used for stamp sticking I think the resulting dna might be a bit confusing considering more than one person used it and the sponges were ancient.
OC
There's another snafu. Having found a letter my father sent from the South Pacific when in the military in WWII, with an envelope that had been sliced at the top rather than the flap ripped open, I thought "perfect!" and envisioned perhaps finding some half-siblings among the descendants of the sad-eyed local girl whose photo had turned up in his treasured belongings. Then my eye fell on the envelope's annotation indicating that the letter's contents had been passed by the military censor. Of course my father was never allowed to lick and seal his own envelope in war time.
That aside, this is a really interesting development! Thanks, Kite.
kiterunner
13-01-19, 14:56
Yes, I don't know what the chances are that Winston Churchill licked many envelopes or stamps himself (the My Heritage news piece says they are trying to extract DNA from his letters.) I should think the more personal the letter (apart from ones that would go through a military censor or similar, of course), the more likely the writer at least licked the envelope. Probably any which say "SWALK" on the back would be a good bet!
Looking through the scanned images of my grandfather's letters and postcards to Charles Lahr, it seems that you used to be able to buy postcards and envelopes with pre-paid postage included? So no stamp-licking there, but I suppose he would at least have licked some of the envelopes.
And most of the stamps on the letters and postcards from my German ancestors seem to have been removed to go in stamp collections, but I see there is at least one written by my great-grandmother with stamps extant, so hopefully one day...
Sue from Southend
13-01-19, 17:10
How interesting! I have an album of postcards sent to my great aunt (b1903) from family members and friends all with stamps attached....
Wouldn't it be great to get my grandma's dna tested!
Interesting, but.... what happens to the artifact?
My father wrote a letter to himself in (I think) 1948, describing life then, not to be opened for a number of years. This would be ideal, but.... I've never opened it, never read it. I cannot imagine that I'd get it back intact.
kiterunner
13-01-19, 22:15
Interesting, but.... what happens to the artifact?
My father wrote a letter to himself in (I think) 1948, describing life then, not to be opened for a number of years. This would be ideal, but.... I've never opened it, never read it. I cannot imagine that I'd get it back intact.
From Totheletter's FAQ's:
DO I NEED TO SEND THE ACTUAL LETTER?
No, please do not send the letter, just the envelope.
DO I GET MY ITEM BACK?
We will return what is left of the item to you when the process is complete. Normally the full flap or stamp/s will be removed. This means there will be some damage to your item. There is a postage cost to return your item to you, which is done via registered post. This cost is available on our buy page.
I had a whole heap of envelopes from relatives to my grandma which I kept for ages for the return addresses. I think I've tossed them though.
One thing though - what about consent? I have letters from my Mum, who is still alive. I could send them in to get her DNA without bothering to ask her her opinion on the test.
kiterunner
15-01-19, 22:15
The same laws apply to DNA testing living people without their consent by this method as to any other.
That is good news although I'm still not sure I approve. I mean what if Churchill had skeletons he didn't want made public?
Olde Crone
16-01-19, 09:45
Kit
Everyone loses all their rights once they are dead. Anyone who takes a dna test is, however inadvertently, violating other people's right to privacy. The recent success in catching criminals through dna given by their relatives for family history purposes is an example.
OC
maggie_4_7
16-01-19, 11:39
Kit
Everyone loses all their rights once they are dead. Anyone who takes a dna test is, however inadvertently, violating other people's right to privacy. The recent success in catching criminals through dna given by their relatives for family history purposes is an example.
OC
The UK pioneered Familial DNA matching to solve crimes. Only 12 states in the USA allow it.
http://www.dnaforensics.com/familialsearches.aspx
At the moment it is only used through criminal databases in the UK I believe I.e. if a family member has committed a crime then they will get a partial match with the unsolved DNA profile. I don't have a problem with that, both subjects have committed crimes and therefore the police can retain that DNA.
However in the USA a criminal profiler and police uploaded an unknown DNA profile to Gedmatch and got a hit on familial DNA through a family tree and they then caught the Golden State Killer who had murdered 13 people, committed 50 rapes, a 100 burglaries from 1974-1986.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_State_Killer
I am not sure I am worried about either method to be honest, if one of my relatives has committed a crime I hope they are caught.
Olde Crone
16-01-19, 13:07
Maggie, no, I'm not worried about serious criminals being caught by this method either, just using it as an example of unconsented(is there such a word?) use of a third party's dna.
OC
maggie_4_7
16-01-19, 13:57
Maggie, no, I'm not worried about serious criminals being caught by this method either, just using it as an example of unconsented(is there such a word?) use of a third party's dna.
OC
That is true but I expect they have to get a warrant for ancestral sites, and get permission. I expect it has only happened that one time. I think on that ocassion the cold case had been opened 3 or 4 times and it was the last resort.
As for the criminal database they need no such permission obviously.
Would they need a warrant? They have the DNA profile from whatever source they had it from.
They upload it, although I guess you are only meant to upload your own.
They get a match. I guess at that point they could not compel the match to assist them and a warrant might be needed but if the person volunteered, no warrant needed.
maggie_4_7
17-01-19, 12:07
Would they need a warrant? They have the DNA profile from whatever source they had it from.
They upload it, although I guess you are only meant to upload your own.
They get a match. I guess at that point they could not compel the match to assist them and a warrant might be needed but if the person volunteered, no warrant needed.
I would think they would and if not I think they should.
It is to do with evidence integrity and fruit from a poisonous tree. Although I don't know if they do have to have a warrant for that type of thing but you do for other evidence but as you say it is in the public domain but the website must have some type of GDP although it is the USA so who knows.
I heard two views of this recently. One from Turi King - who helped identify Richard III.
She said that the innocent DNA was on an open DNA website - where individuals upload DNA to be freely available.
The other was on a "worry how much data is collected" programme where the cops had the warrant and forced Ancestry to hand over the goods.
I suppose the interesting stage is whether the owner of the innocent DNA knows what is going on.
I could buy a dozen kits for my friends and use my email addresses to manage them. It might take a bit of digging to discover their identity.
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