View Full Version : Zipporah Williamson b 1876 Mottram,Cheshire
garstonite
05-01-10, 07:30
Hi...1st time i`ve done this....
My dads nan...
Zipporah Williamson b 1876 Mottram.Cheshire (sometimes spelt ZEpporah...
married Robert Walker b 1864 in c1893
one member on FTF has the same family and states that Charlotte Williamson b 1852 Glossop is Zipporahs mum....don`t know the father...
in the 1881 census Zipporah is in her grandfather s house and it states she`s grandaughter...there`s quite a few in the household including Charlotte with a sister named Zipporah b 1867......I HAVE NEVER FOUND ZIPPORAHS DEATH and I`m thinking she may have died here in Garston......allan:)
I take it you don't have her marriage cert?
Marriages Sep 1891
Booth Amelia Ashton 8d 789
Kay Thomas Ashton 8d 789
Teasdale Alice Ann Ashton 8d 789
Walker Robert Ashton 8d 789
Williamson Zipporah Ashton 8d 789
Is their dau Martha your ancestor? I can see her in 1911 but not either of her parents. Have tried Robert with all his different places of birth (!) and also with his occs of hairdresser and barber, but can't find him. Do you know when he died, or is it possible they emigrated? I can't find her death via Ancestry's supposedly fully transcribed records, nor a re-marriage.
This birth is the next district along from the one she should have been registered in if born in Mottram (I think!) - have you investigated this birth?
Births Jun 1876
Williamson Zipporah Hayfield 7b 810
Ah, did she revert to her maiden name and remarry?
Marriages Jun 1911
Chambers Alfred N Liverpool 8b 100
McNamara Denis Liverpool 8b 100 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Murphy Mary Liverpool 8b 100
Williamson Zipporah Liverpool 8b 100 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
and this could be her death (right age):
Name: Zipporah McNamara
Death Registration Month/Year: 1958 Q3
Age at death (estimated): 82
Registration district: Liverpool North
County: Lancashire
Volume: 10d
Page: 232
Yes, that's her, I'm sure. This is her spelling on the 1911 census (she may not have been quite re-married at this point as the census was taken right at the start of April, so she would have only had a day or two to tie the knot in Q2 1911!!). Denis is with her for this census.
MCNAMARA LIPPORAH F 1876 35 West Derby Lancashire
And guess where 'Lipporah' was born?!! Mottram!! lol
kiterunner
05-01-10, 09:36
Her first marriage is listed on Cheshire BMD, 1891 at St John, Godley, and the 1911 one is on Lancashire BMD at Our Lady & St. Nicholas & St. Anne, Liverpool.
The 1911 census consists of:
Denis McNamara aged 38 b Woolton, Lancashire
Zipporah McNamara aged 35 b Mottram, Cheshire
Denis McNamara aged 4
Veronica McNamara aged 1
I can't work out what place of birth is recorded for the children (and don't know who their mother is, of course!) but they were both registered in West Derby district.
Denis senr is on the 1881 census with his parents, but can't see him easily after that except in 1911. He doesn't seem to have ever died -perhaps his job was connected to the sea and that's why he doesn't show up in 1891 and 1901 and the sea might have claimed him in the end?
Rosie Knees
05-01-10, 12:48
Allan's in for a nice surprise when he comes back on line lol.
lol Rosie!
Denis senr has almost 30 pages of WW1 army papers availaible to view on Ancestry, so I'm just looking to see if they say anything esp interesting.
Originally enlisted in South Lancs Regiment 28th Oct 1890
Transferred to army reserve 3rd Dec 1898
Rejoined 10th Aug 1899
Discharged 10th Nov 1902
Rejoined 20th Aug 1914
Still serving 15th July 1919
Total service 16 years 92 days
Some of the above was in 1st Gunner Battalion, The Cheshire Regiment, but not sure when he changed over (probably 1914)? The dates explain him being missing on the two censuses! He applied for a pension after WW1.
When he was discharged 10th Sept 1919 (last posting in Gibraltar) his address was 26 Shakespeare Street, but I'm not sure if it says Garston or somewhere else? is/was there a Shakespeare St in Garston? It's on page 10866 of 41925 under Den(n)is McNamara if anyone wants to have a look......(sorry, I don't want to backtrack to see what spelling he was under.....he signs his name Denis, but some of the pen pushers prefer Dennis!)
His claim for a pension was for varicose veins, but it was rejected. He says he is married in 1919 but the wife and children bit of the form are blank.
A different page detailing his army discharge has a different address at the same date of 10th Sept 1919 - 2 McCauley St Edge Hill Liverpool, so that's a bit confusing! lol
19th Dec 1922 he is at 21 Hughes St Garston. Cheshire Regiment no 29305 issued British War Medal and Victory Medal.
He was a lance corporal in 1902 but reverted to private in 1914 and for the duration of WW1.
Nope - he was acting corporal in Jan 1919.
When he wrote the letter asking about a modified pension in 1919, he was living at 2 Macaulay St Edge Hill, so different spelling to above.
Ah, says he married a spinster named Zipporah Williamson 17th April 1911 (that's after the census!) at St Nicholas Liverpool.
Children,
Denis 11th June 1906 West Derby
Veronica 15th Oct 1909 West Derby
Margaret 26th Sept 1912 West Derby
His details in 1914:
height 5'9"
weight 151 lbs
eyes and hair grey
Religious denomination Roman Catholic
I can't see any sign of a birth reg for the last child Margaret. Should have mmn Williamson.
1915 Zipporah was living at 20 or 28 (probably 28?) Otway St Garston.
St Nicholas is C of E isn't it? So Denis married 'out' as it were, as he was RC.
So.......
did Zipporah really say she was a spinster in 1911?
was her first marriage legal?
what happened to Robert Walker?
did she and her daughter, Martha, not keep in touch?
Questions, questions...... lol
This is probably Denis's death - don't know why I missed it before:
Name: Denis McNamara
Death Registration: 1951 Q1
Age at death (estimated): 77
Registration district: Liverpool South
County: Lancashire
Volume: 10d
Page: 1063
kiterunner
05-01-10, 16:48
When he was discharged 10th Sept 1919 (last posting in Gibraltar) his address was 26 Shakespeare Street, but I'm not sure if it says Garston or somewhere else? is/was there a Shakespeare St in Garston? It's on page 10866 of 41925 under Den(n)is McNamara if anyone wants to have a look
Yes, it says Garston.
garstonite
06-01-10, 06:32
Is their dau Martha your ancestor? I can see her in 1911 but not either of her parents. Have tried Robert with all his different places of birth (!) and also with his occs of hairdresser and barber, but can't find him. Do you know when he died, or is it possible they emigrated? I can't find her death via Ancestry's supposedly fully transcribed records, nor a re-marriage.
sorry about the delay but we have no phoneline and are using a dongle...don`t know whether it`s the weather but we`ve been having connection problems...YES Merry ,,,Martha was my nan....allan:)
garstonite
06-01-10, 06:51
Having now read all the replies I am flabbergasted Merry....It makes me feel so inadequate...I`ll never be good at this...the one thing I am a little upset about is she died in 1958....I was 7....and I can`t remember her...heard loads and loads about her...and because of the Zipporah name, you obviously remember that name....thank you very very much Merry...Sakespeare st / Hughes St / Otway St are all "under the bridge "streets in Garston...
Martha lived in Clarence Grove OFF Otway St when she married Daniel Oakes..so they were obviously close....my nan Martha died a year before I was born in 1950 so my dad lost his mum before his nan....
NEVER heard of the Mc Namara family ...and don`t know of any in Garston...so My dad was born in 1926 , his elder brother in 1924...so Martha would have had step siblings aged 18 15 and twelve at the time....sorry Merry , but I have to go back to my tree...my dads cousin was named BENTHAM and I have never never found the connection...maybe its thru the Mc Namara line....back soon and thank you so much...you`re a star....allan:)
garstonite
06-01-10, 07:00
So.......
did Zipporah really say she was a spinster in 1911?
was her first marriage legal?
what happened to Robert Walker?
did she and her daughter, Martha, not keep in touch?
Questions, questions...... lol
not very good at this...could the Zipporah who married Robert Walker have been Charlottes sister Zipporah b 1867 and I have the wrong Zipporah as my nan ???......I`m a little confused here....or is that talking silly ?...allan
garstonite
06-01-10, 07:46
Is their dau Martha your ancestor? I can see her in 1911 but not either of her parents. Have tried Robert with all his different places of birth (!) and also with his occs of hairdresser and barber, but can't find him. Do you know when he died, or is it possible they emigrated? I can't find her death via Ancestry's supposedly fully transcribed records, nor a re-marriage.
Hi Merry...been doing a little backtracking....children of Robert Walker and Zipporah Williamson I have in my tree
Martha Walker my nan born 1894 Broadbottom
Vera Walker b 1901 (broadbottom or Garston ...don`t know)
James Walker b 1903 (Broadbottom or Garston...don`t know)
I remember my "uncle" Jim very well...don`t remember Veronica at all....so can I ask you say you found Martha in 1911 BUT NOT WITH PARENTS,,she would have been 16-17...is Veronica and James with her ??
1906 birth 1909 birth...both out of wedlock? then she marries....does Zipporah have Veronica and James with the Mc Namara children with her in 1911 ?....did Robert ever move to Garston with Zipporah ?.....I notice there is SEVEN years between Martha and Veronicas births....going to check on Veronicas PLACE of birth.....James died about 1964 so in BEXHILL ON SEA...if I can find his Death cert it should give his place birth....allan
allan
garstonite
06-01-10, 08:30
Willamson Zipporah b Jun qtr 1867
Williamson Zipporah d mar qtr 1868 ....aged 0 ...so the possibility of "the other Zipporah b 1867 being Roberts wife is a no no...
so I cannot find a VERA walker registered at all in Hayfield reg district (for Broadbottom )
a Vera Walker b 1906 West Derby (Garstons reg dist)...
far too many possibilities for a James Walker b West Derby...none in Hayfield
cannot find any Mc Namara / Williamson births.......allan:confused:
kiterunner
06-01-10, 08:33
Two of the McNamara children were born before mother's maiden name was added to the GRO birth index, Allan (and before Denis and Zipporah's marriage), and we haven't managed to find the birth entry for Margaret who was born after.
Having now read all the replies I am flabbergasted Merry....It makes me feel so inadequate...I`ll never be good at this...the one thing I am a little upset about is she died in 1958....I was 7....and I can`t remember her...heard loads and loads about her...and because of the Zipporah name, you obviously remember that name....thank you very very much Merry...Sakespeare st / Hughes St / Otway St are all "under the bridge "streets in Garston...
Martha lived in Clarence Grove OFF Otway St when she married Daniel Oakes..so they were obviously close....my nan Martha died a year before I was born in 1950 so my dad lost his mum before his nan....
NEVER heard of the Mc Namara family ...and don`t know of any in Garston...so My dad was born in 1926 , his elder brother in 1924...so Martha would have had step siblings aged 18 15 and twelve at the time....sorry Merry , but I have to go back to my tree...my dads cousin was named BENTHAM and I have never never found the connection...maybe its thru the Mc Namara line....back soon and thank you so much...you`re a star....allan:)
I guessed you would say that about overlapping with her for a few years, but not knowing her.
I remember a bit more I didn't post yesterday - Veronica McNamara married a Bentham and had four sons and a daughter between 1930 and 1940. I had a look to see if any of them are on GR but don't seem to be. The children were all born in Liverpool. The reason I didn't post that before was that whan I found Veronica Bentham's death record her date of birth (on the death entry) didn't match up with the date of birth for Veronica McNamara on the army record for her father (at least I didn't think it matched - I haven't re-checked it!), so I thought I'd better not muddy the waters with info that might not be relevent. Sounds like it is though!!
Hope you are feeling a bit better after your slip up the other night?!
I remember my "uncle" Jim very well...don`t remember Veronica at all....so can I ask you say you found Martha in 1911 BUT NOT WITH PARENTS,,she would have been 16-17...is Veronica and James with her ??
Veronica and James were born McNamara and are with Denis and Zipporah in 1911.
I'm not sure if I have the right Martha in 1911. Someone will have to view the image. She is listed as 'granddaughter' born Broadbottom aged 17 (which fits with age and place of birth in 1901), but she doesn't seem to be with any Williamsons or with John and Mary Walker who were Robert Walker's parents.
Could Vera Walker be an alternative name for Veronica McNamara/Bentham?
Here is her death:
Name: Veronica Bentham
Birth Date: 15 Nov 1909
Death Registration Month/Year: Jun 1989
Age at death (estimated): 79
Registration district: Blackpool and Fylde
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 40
Page: 567
and her father had her date of birth as 15th October 1909, which is more similar than I thought it was! lol
Veronica and James were born McNamara and are with Denis and Zipporah in 1911.
I'm talking b**** here! lol! Veronica is with the McNamaras. Who is James? Sorry I was getting him mixed up with Denis M junior. (sorry getting fed up with typing the word McNamara as my Ms and Ns get mixed up!)
Oh, is James a child from Zipporah's first marriage? He might be with Martha - I can't tell.
garstonite
06-01-10, 10:50
well that answers the Bentham query....my dad was quite close to the Bentham clan...I`ll check on all of those now....
backs still sore...awkward when you try to sleep...central Heating / hot water went off last thursday...came out monday but didn`t have the part...haven`t seen him since cos of the weather....more concerned about the cold than my back at present...bad start to the year for me...lol..
anyway...one of the Benthams played for EVERTON...so ,at last I can say "one of our family played for Everton....:d...thanks Merry..thanks Kiterunner....I`ll add the Bentham clan to my tree...should I add the Mc Namara clan on ??....suppose I should....allan;)
Margaret in Burton
06-01-10, 10:51
Merry
Give me some ideas where to find her on the 1911 census and I'll look at the image. I have a sub.
Allan, you don't know who the mother is of the McNamaras yet, (though my money is on Zipporah!)
Erm now let me see, Marg......
Martha Walker b in Broadbottom and living in Ashton under Lyne (district). I think she was 17 years.
Fanks very much :)
garstonite
06-01-10, 11:05
I'm talking b**** here! lol! Veronica is with the McNamaras. Who is James? Sorry I was getting him mixed up with Denis M junior. (sorry getting fed up with typing the word McNamara as my Ms and Ns get mixed up!)
Oh, is James a child from Zipporah's first marriage? He might be with Martha - I can't tell.
James and Vera were Marthas brother and sister...Zipporahs children to Robert Walker....I wonder if Robert is still under a patio somewhere...we do that in Liverpool you know...lol....allan:d
Margaret in Burton
06-01-10, 11:10
1911 census
8 Garden Street, Broadbottom, Ashton Under Lyne
Jane Walker head age 75 a widow - she is a retired calico weaver born in Stockport, Cheshire
Martha Walker - grand daughter age 17 - a calico weaver born in Broadbottom
(Jane Walker had been married for 49 years and had 4 children, 2 of which had died)
Ref is RG14PN24433 RG78PN1402 RD468 SD9 ED2 SN140
Allan, if you want the census image then PM me your email address.
James and Vera were Marthas brother and sister...Zipporahs children to Robert Walker....I wonder if Robert is still under a patio somewhere...we do that in Liverpool you know...lol....allan:d
lol Allan!
I've looked at Vera Walkers b in Cheshire and Lancashire on the 1911 census. All of them are listed as daughter but none of them have a Robert Walker in the same house and they are not with Zipporah. So that's not helpful as it suggests all the Vras I have found are with different, unconnected parents.
1911 census
8 Garden Street, Broadbottom, Ashton Under Lyne
Jane Walker head age 75 a widow - she is a retired calico weaver born in Stockport, Cheshire
Martha Walker - grand daughter age 17 - a calico weaver born in Broadbottom
(Jane Walker had been married for 49 years and had 4 children, 2 of which had died)
Ref is RG14PN24433 RG78PN1402 RD468 SD9 ED2 SN140
Allan, if you want the census image then PM me your email address.
That might mean its the wrong Martha then as her dad's parents were John and Mary Walker. *sulks*
Margaret in Burton
06-01-10, 11:19
That might mean its the wrong Martha then as her dad's parents were John and Mary Walker. *sulks*
So, remind me. Who and what and where :D:D are we looking for in 1911?
Unless I've gone wrong somewhere - as I can't find a separate Martha in 1901.
Allan do you know which registration district your Martha was registered in for birth? If this isn't her in 1911 then there should be two birth regs, but I'm not sure which district Broadbottom is in.
So, remind me. Who and what and where :D:D are we looking for in 1911?
In 1901 Allan's Martha says aged 7 b Broadbottom. Her parents are Robert (who vanishes but may have died) and Zipporah who is aliasing as Mrs McNamara in 1911 as she is getting married in two weeks! Martha isn't with them.
Allan, do you know who Vera Walker married?
Oh b*****, the school is closing because we have 1mm of snow :mad: I was just getting in to this! lol
Marg, Stop, Stop!! Sorry, Sorry!!
I did get it wrong and James and Jane Walker are the parents of Robert the barber.
Margaret in Burton
06-01-10, 11:33
Unless I've gone wrong somewhere - as I can't find a separate Martha in 1901.
Allan do you know which registration district your Martha was registered in for birth? If this isn't her in 1911 then there should be two birth regs, but I'm not sure which district Broadbottom is in.
I've just looked up Broadbottom on Google maps and it's Hyde.
There is a registration district Hyde
Margaret in Burton
06-01-10, 11:34
Marg, Stop, Stop!! Sorry, Sorry!!
I did get it wrong and James and Jane Walker are the parents of Robert the barber.
So is that the right 1911 then? Jane is the grandmother.
garstonite
06-01-10, 11:37
Unless I've gone wrong somewhere - as I can't find a separate Martha in 1901.
Allan do you know which registration district your Martha was registered in for birth? If this isn't her in 1911 then there should be two birth regs, but I'm not sure which district Broadbottom is in.
Hayfield Merry....allan
Margaret in Burton
06-01-10, 11:37
I've just looked up Broadbottom on Google maps and it's Hyde.
There is a registration district Hyde
There are no Martha Walkers born in Hyde district at the right time anyway
If Allan thinks there should be more Walker children (James and Vera) born after 1901 and before Zipporah and Robert split (or whatever happened), then I was thinking if we knew Vera's married name/husband's full name, and/or any of her childrens names etc (don't post if still living Allan!) then we might be able to tie up her death to her birth and find her that way?
*hopes Vera didn't marry a Smith though :rolleyes:*
There are no Martha Walkers born in Hyde district at the right time anyway
I don't think this family trusted registrars! The 1912 dau doesn't seem to be registered either (Margaret McNamara mmn Williamson)
garstonite
06-01-10, 12:08
Allan, do you know who Vera Walker married?
sorry Merry...I know nothing about her only what my dad told me...wonder if he was mistaken and this Vera / Veronica WAS a MC NAMARA and NOT a Walker ???.....allan:(
garstonite
06-01-10, 12:10
If Allan thinks there should be more Walker children (James and Vera) born after 1901 and before Zipporah and Robert split (or whatever happened), then I was thinking if we knew Vera's married name/husband's full name, and/or any of her childrens names etc (don't post if still living Allan!) then we might be able to tie up her death to her birth and find her that way?
*hopes Vera didn't marry a Smith though :rolleyes:*
at my dads funeral 3 years ago there was a G***** Johnson who was a cousin...don`t know how they fit in either.....allan
BTW Robert Walkers mum was Jane Allcock b1835 who married James Walker b 1832....that`s who Martha was with in the census and also I am trying very hard to help but cos I`m on a dongle it`s taking forever just to change a page on freebmd and sometimes no response at all....apologies to all....allan
Margaret in Burton
06-01-10, 12:22
Allan
Do you want the 1911 census image? It may take you an age to open it on a dongle though.
garstonite
06-01-10, 12:30
Yes please Marg....if it`s not to much trouble....cheers...allan;)
garstonite
06-01-10, 12:38
just to let you know that I didn`t get much sleep last night with my sore back so I`m gonna have an hours kip on the couch...back about 3pm....cheers...allan
Margaret in Burton
06-01-10, 13:02
Yes please Marg....if it`s not to much trouble....cheers...allan;)
Allan
I need your email address. PM it to me.
Is it time for some clarifying?
Zipporah Williamson b 1876 (Q2 Hayfield cert to be checked)
She married Robert Walker in Q3 1891 (aged only 15 if that's her birth reg). Both of them were listed as single on the 1891 census.
Martha Walker b Broadbottom abt 1893/4. Cert?
James and Vera Walker not yet traced - presume born after 1901 and before Zipporah moved in with Denis McNamara
Zipporah Williamson married Denis McNamara 17th April 1911 (may have said she was a spinster - what happened to Robert Walker?). Denis and Zipporah may already have two children, or one or both are from a previous relationship:
Denis McNamara b 1906 reg West Derby
Veronica McNamara b 1909 reg West Derby
Then there is another child mentioned on Denis's army record:
Margaret McNamara b 1912 should have mmn Williamson, but reg not found.
Denis McNamara died 1951
Zipporah McNamara died 1958
Veronica McNamara married Joseph Bentham in 1929 and had five children. She died in 1989.
Denis McNamara junior died 1985 (don't know if he married etc)
Don't know what happened to Margaret McNamara
Don't know anything about siblings James and Vera Walker.
Allan, you said you knew Uncle Jim well. Don't suppose you know when he died?
garstonite
06-01-10, 14:15
Yes Merry...I mentioned it on an earlier post..post 21.
he died in BEXHILL ON SEA when I was about 13 / 14 so I`d say roughly 1964...hope that helps....Jim Walker was at our house a few times and had a scouse accent so I presume he was born in Liverpool BUT if he came as a baby to 8 yr old he would still have picked the accent up....allan:)
garstonite
06-01-10, 14:37
1911 census
8 Garden Street, Broadbottom, Ashton Under Lyne
Jane Walker head age 75 a widow - she is a retired calico weaver born in Stockport, Cheshire
Martha Walker - grand daughter age 17 - a calico weaver born in Broadbottom
(Jane Walker had been married for 49 years and had 4 children, 2 of which had died)
Ref is RG14PN24433 RG78PN1402 RD468 SD9 ED2 SN140
Allan, if you want the census image then PM me your email address.
marg...I only have 2 children for James and Jane ...they are
Joseph Walker b 1859
Robert Walker b 1864
do you know the other childrens names that died ??.....allan
Margaret in Burton
06-01-10, 14:41
marg...I only have 2 children for James and Jane ...they are
Joseph Walker b 1859
Robert Walker b 1864
do you know the other childrens names that died ??.....allan
Sorry Allan
As the mothers maiden name isn't on the birth ref before 1911 it would be virtually impossible to find out unless they happen to be alive on a census night.
Do you have Jane and her hubby on all possible census?
These look possible on Cheshire BMD:
1857 WALKER William Stockport First Stockport ALLCOCK ST1/39/81
1864 WALKER Charles Newton & Godley Tameside ALLCOCK NEW/17/33
The first being Jane's home area and the second being the same district as Robert. Robert and Joseph are on Cheshire BMD too.
Yes Merry...I mentioned it on an earlier post..post 21.
he died in BEXHILL ON SEA when I was about 13 / 14 so I`d say roughly 1964...hope that helps....Jim Walker was at our house a few times and had a scouse accent so I presume he was born in Liverpool BUT if he came as a baby to 8 yr old he would still have picked the accent up....allan:)
Bexhill in Sussex? That's Battle District, but there are no James Walkers dying there according to Ancestry (which might have mistranscribed it) at all. I tried all Walkers five years each side of 1964, but none looked likely. Maybe he died in hospital nearby but in a different district, but lived in Bexhill ?
garstonite
06-01-10, 17:35
I remember my dad had to go down with his younger brother...Jim was living with a woman in a bungalow but it was Jims so legally it was the families(ours) and he also had a caravan on the coast......so my dad and his brother said they couldn`t turf this woman out of her home so, they agreed to sell the caravan and let the woman have the bungalow...now I might have it wrong but...Hastings rings a bell....is that near Bexhill on sea???....maybe the bungalow was in Hastings and the caravan was in Bexhill on Sea or vice versa....sorry for any confusion but it is about 45 yrs ago....lol....allan:)
sorry for any confusion but it is about 45 yrs ago....lol....allan:)
lol!! I tried Hastings, but that was no better really.
Anyway, as he didn't last until 1969 then the death won't give an exact date of birth, so an age the the nearest year or two may not be that helpful, with him having a fairly ordinary name.
Frustrating, isn't it?!! :p
garstonite
06-01-10, 17:48
thanx merry......it`s very frustrating when you can see their face in front of you...maybe I`m wrong but I`m sure it was between 1962-65....allan:(
Pity he didn't marry the lady for the elusive bit of paper with his dad's name on it! lol Did Jim have any children?
garstonite
06-01-10, 18:07
I never heard of any mentioned...hence all his belongings / assets went to his sister Marthas 4 kids...Danny /Les (my dad ) Jim and Vera Oakes.....I presume Jim and Vera were named after MARTHAS BROTHER AND SISTER Vera and James Walker....so this might suggest that Vera Walker had no kids either ??....allan:)
Well, at the moment Vera and Jim Walker (senior) don't seem to exist! And of course there's a question mark over what happened to Robert Walker.
Have you got Martha's marriage cert? What occ does she give for her dad? Hairdresser/barber or something else?
garstonite
07-01-10, 08:45
No Merry....my Aunty May is 83 and I`ll go and see her today (weather permitting )...she`ll give me the proper details on Jim Walker....all this info is from memory....I will concede that Vera Walker could well be Vera Mc Namara but I DO remember Jim Walker....maybe I have my dates mixed up...maybe he died when I was younger than I thought.....back later....Allan:)
Fingers crossed for Aunty May then!!
garstonite
07-01-10, 13:52
It worked Merry...great result...are you sitting comfortable ?...then I`ll begin..
Aunty May remembers Jim Walker well and yes he was living in Bexhill on Sea when he died....Bentham connection then Aunty May ?.....oh I`VE GOT m******¬s phone number here...she rang me last week to say Happy New Year''''.....so I rang M******
Her mum was Veronica McNamara and her nan was ZIPPORAH WILLIAMSON / WALKER /McNAMRA....SO
Zipporah was a Calico Weaver and was born in Hatfield ,Glossop..
in Garston there was a huge Bobbin Works owned by the same company that owned the Mill where Zipporah worked...Zipporah operated a FOUR WEAVE LOOM...THEY DIDN`T HAVE AN EXPERIENCED FOUR WEAVE LOOM OPERATOR in Garston so they offered the job to Zipporah on evidently a very well paid job..
Zipporah came to Garston to work with her TWO children Martha and James in 1905...WITHOUT ROBERT WALKER ..THERE WAS NO VERA WALKER TO HER KNOWLEDGE...but Aunty May (83) says SHE remembers talk of her...so ...
Zipporah left Robert Walker back home...whether Vera Walker stayed with him we don`t know..
Zipporah met Patrick McNamara and had 2 children to him BEFORE she married him...this you had already found....
So it appears although she worked in Garston ,she moved to number 2 Mcauley St in Edge Hill Liverpool...about 5 miles from Garston....the Mcnamaras lived in number 6....they met...evidently you had to be very desperate in those days to apply for a divorce because of the stigma it brought...
so back to the Mc Namaras ...Veronica married Joseph Bentham and they had 5 children...3 are still alive and 2 have passed away...and guess what ?
M****** lives just outside Garston and she was born in her nans house 2 Mc Cauley St....and..SHE HAS BEEN DOING HER FAMILY TREE and is a member of the Liverpool Family History Association...she doesn`t have a computer but she does have a lot of Marriage / birth certs...she said I can visit and photocopy them all....so I am going to see her in about 2 weeks after everything here at home is sorted (recent house move)...she said it`s all in the loft and as her and her husband (who by the way is the Johnson connection) are getting on she will get one of the grandkids to get them out of the loft...so..
I am looking forward to that...when I told her I had done my research on pc and I had Zipporahs nan and g nan on file she was very very excited ...so I`ve told her I will take my laptop and dongle and show her tree on line...we`re both excited about this meeting...I have only seen M****** twice....at my dads and my dads sisters funerals.....she is their cousin....
so Merry and everyone...thank you all so very much ...if Merry hadn`t have found that 2nd marriage of Zipporah I would never have known all this info...
ONLY ONE BRICKWALL NOW...James Walker b c1901 Glossop....7 years after my nan ....was Zipporah with Robert when James was born ???....James is the Mystery now......a FANTASTIC result for Me ........THANK YOU ALL ONCE AGAIN AND A SPECIAL THANX TO MERRY.......allan:);)
Margaret in Burton
07-01-10, 14:02
No James Walker's registered in Glossop around 1901. Can't find him on the 1911 census either.
I'm going to put my comments in between what you have written, without bothing with the quotes thingy - I'll use a different colour!
It worked Merry...great result...are you sitting comfortable ?...
Yes thanks
then I`ll begin..
OK!
Aunty May remembers Jim Walker well and yes he was living in Bexhill on Sea when he died....
She didn't have any clearer date for that?
Bentham connection then Aunty May ?.....oh I`VE GOT m******¬s phone number here...she rang me last week to say Happy New Year''''.....so I rang M******
Nice one! lol
Her mum was Veronica McNamara and her nan was ZIPPORAH WILLIAMSON / WALKER /McNAMRA....SO
Zipporah was a Calico Weaver and was born in Hatfield ,Glossop..
Should that be Hayfield, Glossop? If yes, then I guess this IS the right birth reg and would tell you her mum's name for certain:
Births Jun 1876
Williamson Zipporah Hayfield 7b 810
so she was really young when she got married to Robert - no wonder it didn't work out!
in Garston there was a huge Bobbin Works owned by the same company that owned the Mill where Zipporah worked...Zipporah operated a FOUR WEAVE LOOM...THEY DIDN`T HAVE AN EXPERIENCED FOUR WEAVE LOOM OPERATOR in Garston so they offered the job to Zipporah on evidently a very well paid job..
That sounds really interesting
Zipporah came to Garston to work with her TWO children Martha and James in 1905...
So, we still haven't found James in 1911 and if he was born before 1901 then we've not found him then either!
WITHOUT ROBERT WALKER ..
Fair enough!
THERE WAS NO VERA WALKER TO HER KNOWLEDGE...but Aunty May (83) says SHE remembers talk of her...so ...
Hmmmm....odd....
Zipporah left Robert Walker back home...whether Vera Walker stayed with him we don`t know..
This needs more work then!
Zipporah met Patrick McNamara and had 2 children to him BEFORE she married him...this you had already found....
Yes, except he was Denis not Patrick and as I think (from memory) his father was Patrck I don't even want to go there! lol Hopefully you ave just typed the wrong name?!! Did she, or you, mention the third McNamara child, Margaret??
So it appears although she worked in Garston ,she moved to number 2 Mcauley St in Edge Hill Liverpool...about 5 miles from Garston....the Mcnamaras lived in number 6....they met...evidently you had to be very desperate in those days to apply for a divorce because of the stigma it brought...
So, they were not divorced, but waited until Robert Walker died to get married? Seems likely. Maybe we should be looking harder for Robert's death?
so back to the Mc Namaras ...Veronica married Joseph Bentham and they had 5 children...3 are still alive and 2 have passed away...and guess what ?
M****** lives just outside Garston and she was born in her nans house 2 Mc Cauley St....and..SHE HAS BEEN DOING HER FAMILY TREE and is a member of the Liverpool Family History Association...she doesn`t have a computer but she does have a lot of Marriage / birth certs...she said I can visit and photocopy them all....so I am going to see her in about 2 weeks after everything here at home is sorted (recent house move)...she said it`s all in the loft and as her and her husband (who by the way is the Johnson connection) are getting on she will get one of the grandkids to get them out of the loft...so..
I am looking forward to that...
Fabulous!!
when I told her I had done my research on pc and I had Zipporahs nan and g nan on file she was very very excited ...so I`ve told her I will take my laptop and dongle and show her tree on line...we`re both excited about this meeting...I have only seen M****** twice....at my dads and my dads sisters funerals.....she is their cousin....
So you will probably have info to swap!
so Merry and everyone...thank you all so very much ...if Merry hadn`t have found that 2nd marriage of Zipporah I would never have known all this info...
ONLY ONE BRICKWALL NOW...James Walker b c1901 Glossop....7 years after my nan ....was Zipporah with Robert when James was born ???....James is the Mystery now......a FANTASTIC result for Me ........THANK YOU ALL ONCE AGAIN AND A SPECIAL THANX TO MERRY.......allan
Hmmm.....the mystery James! lol!
__________________
Margaret in Burton
07-01-10, 14:18
Think I feel a migraine coming on LOLOL
I'm going dizzy :D:D
Right Merry, can we have a list please of who, what and where we are looking for please?
garstonite
07-01-10, 14:30
Could I be very naive here....LOOKING AT OLD NOTES
on the 1901 census for
James Walker with wife Jane
JAMES WALKER son 9 ???????? James and Jane are far too old to be his parents, should that be grandson and James was born 1892 BEFORE Martha 1894checking the year of Robert /Zipporahs marriage ? 1891 that fits and Zipporah was 15.....omg
DON`T SLAP MY WRISTS...lol
I STRESSED IT WAS HAYFIELD but M ****** was adamant it was Hatfield...she`s wrong....but stressed she had the cert to prove it,,,,
back soon , more research to do....have to find James Walker (hopefully in Broadbottom in 1892....allan
Oh nice one! I hadn't looked at James and Jane in 1901 - only before that!
So, James (that you knew) was with his paternal grandparents in 1901 and was probably the reason Zipporah married so young! lol
Margaret in Burton
07-01-10, 14:38
I've found James in 1911
Back with the details in a mo.
Margaret in Burton
07-01-10, 14:40
He is a lodger at 32 Compstall Rd, Romiley, Cheshire
Here he is:
Births Dec 1891
Walker James Ashton 8d 568
Margaret in Burton
07-01-10, 14:42
http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu326/margharrison/JamesWalker1911.jpg
Oh good Marg, this is more like it!
So now we just need his death, which I can't find! lol
Margaret in Burton
07-01-10, 14:46
What sort of year are we looking at for his death?
Within a few years of 1964 in Battle district (for Bexhill on sea) or Hastings district or somewhere else in Sussex, or perhaps miles from Sussex :rolleyes:, but he lived in Bexhill and was buried/cremated there!!
garstonite
07-01-10, 14:52
you pair of beauties....I AM SO SORRY to have messed you about...I didn`t think he was that old....certainly didn`t look it when I was young....think he was a rep for Grecian 2000....lol....so it would appear M******* had it right...in 1905 they would have been 14 and 11....and by 1911 they were both away from Garston.
James lodging in Romiley Cheshire aged 20 and Martha aged 17 was with her nan and grandad Walker...allan:d
Margaret in Burton
07-01-10, 14:52
Just been checking back.
There is no death in Battle for the right time but there is one in Hailsham. How far away is that?
James Walker
aged 74
Sept qtr 1966
5h 298
Margaret in Burton
07-01-10, 14:53
Allan
Do you want that 1911 census image?
Margaret in Burton
07-01-10, 14:55
Just been checking back.
There is no death in Battle for the right time but there is one in Hailsham. How far away is that?
James Walker
aged 74
Sept qtr 1966
5h 298
About 14 miles away, just checked Google maps
garstonite
07-01-10, 14:55
That looks promising ..yes please and I`ll check on mapquest where Hailsham is .....but I am slow on this dongle........allan:o
15 miles...that`s him....I told Merry I thought it was Hastings but it must have been Hailsham and the caravan was in Bexhill on Sea.....I`m sure my dad signed the death cert so I`ll buy it and check it out,,,,,,thanks a million girls...what a result........allan
Just been checking back.
There is no death in Battle for the right time but there is one in Hailsham. How far away is that?
James Walker
aged 74
Sept qtr 1966
5h 298
Erm....I don't think I've ever been to Sussex! The towns of Battle and Hailsham are only ten miles apart though. Bexhill is nearer still. Maybe there's a big hospital in Hailsham district?
Margaret in Burton
07-01-10, 14:59
I've emailed census to you Allan
Margaret in Burton
07-01-10, 15:00
I reckon that's him.
Right,
What's next Merry?
Margaret in Burton
07-01-10, 15:03
Erm....I don't think I've ever been to Sussex! The towns of Battle and Hailsham are only ten miles apart though. Bexhill is nearer still. Maybe there's a big hospital in Hailsham district?
There is one at St Leonards on sea.
http://www.spirehealthcare.com/Sussex/Find-or-Contact-Us/
That seems to come under Hastings though
garstonite
07-01-10, 15:04
YOU TWO ARE PRICELESS....LOL.....So Grateful,,,,,,cheers..allan;);)
Margaret in Burton
07-01-10, 15:36
Has this death been considered for Robert Walker?
Mar qtr 1911, so before the census
8b 504
Prescot, Lancashire
age 47 (b 1864)
Margaret in Burton
07-01-10, 15:43
Oooooooohh just had a thought!
Is there any chance that Vera and Veronica would be one and the same person?
I just remembered that when Jack and Vera in Corrie kept the Rovers, it was Vera's name over the door and it said Veronica Duckworth.
ooops Merry suggested that on #25
kiterunner
07-01-10, 16:14
Cheshire BMD has his birth listed with mother's maiden name Williamson, just to confirm everything.
Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1891
WALKER James Mottram Tameside WILLIAMSON MOT/28/6
kiterunner
07-01-10, 16:21
Then there is Martha listed in 1893, and also a Thomas in 1892? I can't remember whether Thomas has already been mentioned? Or maybe he isn't part of the same family?
kiterunner
07-01-10, 16:28
Ah, a Thomas Walker died in Mottram age 0 also in 1892. I haven't managed to get FreeBMD to give me the quarters when Thomas was born and died yet but I would think he probably belongs to your family.
kiterunner
07-01-10, 16:44
Okay, these are the quarters from FreeBMD:
Dec 1891 James Walker birth Ashton district
Two possibles for Thomas Walker's birth - Sep 1892 or Dec 1892 Ashton district
Also the same two possible quarters for his death.
Dec 1893 Martha Walker birth Ashton district
Oooh, that's good Kite!
Margaret, I already asked Allan if Vera and Veronica might be one and the same, but I can't remember what he said now! lol Didn't know that about Vera Duckworth though - the things you learn here!!!
Erm, Allan did you notice I found the missing children for whoever it was who said they had four in 1911, two living and two dec'd? Was it James and Jane Walker's family? (EDIT: yes, it was)
kiterunner
07-01-10, 18:14
Oooh, that's good Kite!
Well, good except it means it looks likely that Zipporah had a baby who died, which can be quite sad to find out.
I realise that - I was refering to the whole lot of entries. I never remember to check the local BMD sites as I don't have any relatives who come from the right places to use them!
Marg/Allan - In 1911 what did Zipporah say about the number of children she had in her current marriage and how long she had been wed? Might have been tricky as she was actually between marriages (unless Robert was alive, which I don't think he was) but did she say she had two children with Denis?
I've just realised Allan hasn't mentioned anything about Denis junior.
kiterunner
07-01-10, 18:29
Very few of the birth entries on the Cheshire BMD site for the 1890's had mother's maiden name listed, so it was lucky for us that the indexers for Mottram had included it.
Strange really - when I looked for the children of James and Jane Walker there were dozens and dozens of Walker entries, but only about a dozen with mmn. Maybe they know these are Allan's relations? :rolleyes:
kiterunner
07-01-10, 18:34
Accrington on Lancashire BMD is another place where the indexers have taken the trouble to add MMN, which is very useful for me as a lot of OH's lot were born in Accrington.
kiterunner
07-01-10, 19:00
By the way, Allan, could "Hatfield" be "Hadfield", which is very close to Glossop?
Margaret in Burton
07-01-10, 19:59
Marg/Allan - In 1911 what did Zipporah say about the number of children she had in her current marriage and how long she had been wed? Might have been tricky as she was actually between marriages (unless Robert was alive, which I don't think he was) but did she say she had two children with Denis?
I've just realised Allan hasn't mentioned anything about Denis junior.
I haven't looked at this Merry
I'm off to watch Silent Witness, will look later
garstonite
07-01-10, 20:09
Hiya Merry / Kiterunner
thanks again for your hard work....I have never heard of cheshbmd putting mmn that early so that was a big bonus...I will now upgrade my tree with the correct birth for James / Martha / and I will do a check for Thomas...
Merry ...What were the names of the 2 missing children and their y.o.b`s.(James and Janes )...thanks...
I am unsure regarding Vera Walker / Veronica Mc Namara...I now know who Veronica Mc married and her 5 children...did Vera Walker exist or is Vera -Veronica Mc Namara...
as for Robert Walker death in 1911 in Prescot reg area....Woolton which adjoins Garston comes under Prescot...so it IS a possibility...but according to the new family member I spoke to today Zipporah didn`t bring Robert ,she also said she has never heard of a Vera Walker..She is the grandaughter of Denis Mc Namara and neice of Denis jnr so I will get info on those 2 and Margaret when I see her...
....Hatfield / Hadfield ?with our scouse accents I could well of misheard exactly what M****** said...
..
so ...the 2 childrens names to add and I have had an absolutely brilliant 2 days....and I am expecting more info in a couple of weeks time.....it just seems unreal getting all this info so quickly.....thankyou all so much...Marg...thanks for the e-mails and attachments...appreciated.....regards to you all.....allan;);)
These look possible on Cheshire BMD:
1857 WALKER William Stockport First Stockport ALLCOCK ST1/39/81
1864 WALKER Charles Newton & Godley Tameside ALLCOCK NEW/17/33
The first being Jane's home area and the second being the same district as Robert. Robert and Joseph are on Cheshire BMD too.
Here are the two missing children of James and Jane Walker. I don't think it will be very easy to find out when they each died unless some burials come out of the woodwork. I expect they each died before the following census, unless they were living/staying elsewhere for census night.
garstonite
07-01-10, 20:45
Thanks very much Merry...just updating my tree...cheers....allan:)
garstonite
07-01-10, 20:56
Well that`s sad...just checked on cheshbmd and the Charles Walker you have found was my Robert Walker (my g grandfather) TWIN BROTHER...they both have 1864 NEW/17/33........next to their name....I am right aren`t I ??....allan:)
Oh dear, I am sorry - I didn't notice that because they are in alphabetical order and I didn't really look at Robert's at all.
Margaret in Burton
07-01-10, 21:12
1911 census. Denis and Zipporah are living at No6 Queen St, Garston, Liverpool.
It says she has been married 8 years and has had 4 children 2 of which have died.
http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu326/margharrison/zipporah.jpg
This seems the most likely death reg for Charles.
Deaths Mar 1865
WALKER Charles Ashton 8d 365
1911 census. Denis and Zipporah are living at No6 Queen St, Garston, Liverpool.
It says she has been married 8 years and has had 4 children 2 of which have died.
So the eight years is a fabrication to cover the four children born to Denis and Zipporah? I would guess at least one of the children who died was born before the four year old if she had been with Denis for 8 years.
garstonite
07-01-10, 21:24
Thanks Marg...a little confusing because we know by 1911 she had
James Walker b 1891
Thomas Walker b 1892....died 1892
Martha Walker b 1893
Denis McNamara b 1906
Veronica McNamara b 1909
Margaret b 1912 comes later
I think MAYBE there was a Vera Walker born between 1893 and Zipporah meeting Denis and SHE died...this would explain the TWO deaths ???..
Merry....Denis / Veronica / Margaret...who was the fourth child to Denis ??...I`ll have to check previous posts......allan:confused:
Margaret in Burton
07-01-10, 21:29
Allan
She is asked how many children in that marriage. In other words she is answering how many children she had with Denis. We know they weren't actually married at the time but the enumerator didn't know that.
kiterunner
07-01-10, 21:55
Margaret wouldn't be included in the count on the 1911 census because she was born in 1912, so it looks likely that Denis and Zipporah had two (other) children who died, whose names we haven't seen yet. There are so many McNamara deaths in West Derby district that it would be very difficult to pick out the right ones without more info.
Margaret is really bothering me! lol
What a pity it's Veronica everyone knows about and Margaret no one does. Searching for a Veronica is so much easier!
Margaret in Burton
07-01-10, 22:12
Margaret is really bothering me! lol
What a pity it's Veronica everyone knows about and Margaret no one does. Searching for a Veronica is so much easier!
Merry
Are you saying that Margaret is a common name???????????????:D:D:D:D
Erm......No......Veronica was an uncommon one at that time :p:rolleyes::D:D
pmsl!!!!
kiterunner
07-01-10, 22:25
There is a Margaret McNamara birth registered in West Derby Oct-Dec 1912 but the mother's maiden name is Moran. I thought there was a McNamara / Moran marriage in 1911 but checking it on Lancashire BMD, they didn't marry each other. There was a James McNamara / Frances S Moran marriage in 1920 and then there is a McNamara / Moran birth every year or two after that, so it seems unlikely that 1912 Margaret belonged to that couple. Although of course there was the First World War in between, which could explain it. Or maybe there was some mistake and the Margaret listed on the index is the right one but MMN is wrong.
(Edit - or possibly Moran was Zipporah's father's surname?)
(Edit - or possibly Moran was Zipporah's father's surname?)
Oooh, for about 24 hours I've been trying to remember a thought that whizzed thro my head yesterday which I then forgot and that was it! lol However, I can't help feeling that Margaret with mmn Moran was just the first of the children of the couple you mentioned, however much I want her to be Zipporah's ;(
kiterunner
07-01-10, 22:37
Or of course it could be that a widowed Moran married a McNamara, though Lancashire BMD usually gives all previous surnames (if they got married in Lancashire).
I couldn't find Frances S Moran's birth registration to see if she was old enough to have a child in 1912.
garstonite
08-01-10, 06:57
dozens of Morans in Garston...they came over from Wicklow and so did many many other Irish families...Garston is nicknamed Little Wicklow....allan
Or maybe there was some mistake and the Margaret listed on the index is the right one but MMN is wrong.
The more I look at it the more I wonder if this is the case? Never come across that happening before, but I suppose every possible mistake must have happened at some time or other.
garstonite
08-01-10, 12:14
I realise we are now onto another TOGG but just to let you know that Margaret married Frank Mellor in 1938 june qtr...got the info about her husband off M****** ....so ...she definitely WAS born Margaret McNamara 1912...(known as Aunty Peggy).as soon as Denis signed up for WW1 Zipporah ran away from him as he was a wife beater...M****** says her nan (zipporah) said she had 8 children altogether 3 to Robert and 5 to Denis..the first at 15.......allan:)
she was 15 in june qtr
married sep qtr
had James dec qtr....all 1891 ...so she was pregnant at 14 ...and he was 27......in this day and age he would have been jailed wouldn`t he ??
I realise we are now onto another TOGG but just to let you know that Margaret married Frank Mellor in 1938 june qtr...got the info about her husband off M****** ....so ...she definitely WAS born Margaret McNamara 1912...(known as Aunty Peggy).as soon as Denis signed up for WW1 Zipporah ran away from him as he was a wife beater...
There are no Margaret mellor deaths with dob 26th Sept 1912, but she might have died before the dob was listed or one or other dates might be wrong.
I am irritated with myself now as I'm sure one of the addresses I detailed way back near the start of this thread when I was reading Denis's army record (post #11) was an address for Zipporah, but I wrote it down as 'their address' which is clearly wasn't if they were separated. *chastises self for not being more careful* Also in 1919 there were two addresses for Denis, so maybe one of those was Zipporah's address too?
M****** says her nan (zipporah) said she had 8 children altogether 3 to Robert and 5 to Denis..the first at 15.......allan:)
she was 15 in june qtr
married sep qtr
had James dec qtr....all 1891 ...so she was pregnant at 14 ...and he was 27......in this day and age he would have been jailed wouldn`t he
Poor Zipporah - she didn't have a very good personal life did she? Let's hope having a good job made up for it a bit. I wonder if your cousin has the first marriage cert for Zipporah? It would be interesting to see if she admitted to being 15. it was legal then, of course, but so many brides added a bit if they were very young.
The 8 children bit ties in doesn't it? James, Thomas (who died) and Martha with Robert and two who died before 1911 with Denis, plus Denis, Veronica and Margaret with Denis.
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