Who Do You Think You Are - Shirley Ballas 30th Jul

[kiterunner]

At 9 p.m. on BBC1, and repeated on Wednesday night at 11:45 p.m.

[Olde Crone]

Ooooh, my goodness me, talk about flights of fancy. I wanted to scream. It was interesting but why did no.one state the obvious!!!! Was she deliberately misunderstanding?

OC

[Margaret in Burton]

Well it was obvious to me from that photo that he was at least mixed race.

[Ann from Sussex]

I thought the most likely explanation for Isaac DaCosta leaving the younger Caroline money and a house was that he was her father. It wasn't unknown for slave owners to father children with their slaves but no mention was made of such a possibility. Is that what you mean OC?

[Tom Tom]

I thought the most likely explanation for Isaac DaCosta leaving the younger Caroline money and a house was that he was her father. It wasn't unknown for slave owners to father children with their slaves but no mention was made of such a possibility. Is that what you mean OC?

That's what I thought was the obvious answer!

Edit to add - it was Caroline who was christened as an adult with the entry saying Malay parents, so maybe this is why thy think she wasn't Isaac DaCosta's daughter.
Also, it was her daughter who was described as mixed race, not her. Would the daughter have still been described as mixed race if it was in fact her mother who was mixed race?

[Olde Crone]

Yes, seemed blindingly obvious to me! All that rubbish about being a wonderful wet nurse, honestly.

Also, she completely missed the divorce information that Clara had contracted syphilis from her second husband and supposed she must have caught it from him! It said so in the divorce document.

Her first husband had cancer for two years and died in 1916, so it wasn't that which prompted his will written in 1911 leaving everything to his mother. Much more likely Clara had cleared off, that prompted the will.

It was interesting but spoiled for me by all the misinterpretation of information.

OC

[Margaret in Burton]

Yes, seemed blindingly obvious to me! All that rubbish about being a wonderful wet nurse, honestly.

Also, she completely missed the divorce information that Clara had contracted syphilis from her second husband and supposed she must have caught it from him! It said so in the divorce document.

Her first husband had cancer for two years and died in 1916, so it wasn't that which prompted his will written in 1911 leaving everything to his mother. Much more likely Clara had cleared off, that prompted the will.

It was interesting but spoiled for me by all the misinterpretation of information.

OC

That begs the question that why didn’t supposedly professional researchers put her straight?

Shoddy

[ElizabethHerts]

I agree with the above. Why would a wealthy man leave a substantial legacy to a wet nurse? There was something more going on there!

I wish they would present a more balanced view. Of course, without hard proof you can't say that Da Costa was the father, but it could have at least been presented as a possibility.

[Olde Crone]

Marg

Yes, this series is starting to look like it's using second class researchers.

OC

[Margaret in Burton]

Marg

Yes, this series is starting to look like it's using second class researchers.

OC

Or, the researchers are star struck and don’t like to contradict what the person has assumed.

[ElizabethHerts]

If you google Isaac Da Costa there are a few hits. It seems he had form in converting people to Christianity:

https://calledconvictedconverted.com/2014/04/24/the-gospel-in-south-africa-8-two-new-churches-are-born/

I have seen it reported that he was Jewish by birth.

[kiterunner]

Episode summary:

Shirley Ballas and her brother were brought up by their mother, Audrey Standing, in Leasowe, Merseyside, after their parents separated, so Shirley did not know much about her father's side of the family except that there was a rumour of black ancestry. On her mother's side, she wanted to find out more about her great-grandmother, who was said to be a "party girl" who left her daughter Daisy Sutton (Audrey's mother) when she was young and went to live in the USA.

Shirley went to see her mother, who showed her photos of Daisy as a child on a farm with her brothers Jack Sutton and George Sutton jr, their parents George Sutton sr and Clara Eccles, and George's mother who brought up the children after Clara left. George and Clara's marriage certificate, dated 16 Jul 1903, showed that they were both aged 23 when they married. Shirley's mother said that she had been told that Clara liked going to the pub, and left the children when Daisy was in her teens, and that she had asked Daisy to go to the USA with her but Daisy refused. She had also heard that Clara adopted a child in the USA, and that George sr died in his 40's of a broken heart because of Clara leaving him.

Shirley searched online for Clara and found her on the 1911 census in Hoylake, Cheshire, a shop keeper, aged 31, with George jr 7, Daisy 3, and Jack 18 months. George sr was not with the family, but listed as a patient at the Royal Southern Hospital, Toxteth Park, Liverpool. Shirley went to Birkenhead Library and met a genealogist who showed her George's will, dated 24th Nov 1911, which left everything to "my mother Elizabeth, with whom I now reside." George's death certificate showed that he died on the 28th Mar 1916, age 36, at the Cottage Hospital, Hoylake, of cancer. Daisy would have been about 9 years old then.

Shirley was then shown the marriage certificate of Arthur Spidle, 31, a bachelor, and Clara Sutton, a widow, supposedly aged 32, who married in Mar 1919. The genealogist said that they had been unable to find any more UK records pertaining to the couple, but showed Shirley a map of Hoylake so that she could go and find the house where Clara was living on the 1911 census.

Shirley then met an historian who showed her a passenger list from Aug 1919 with Arthur and Clara sailing from Liverpool to New York, final destination Boston. On the 1920 census Arthur and Clara were in a lodging house in Boston, he a hotel porter and she a department store sales lady. Shirley was then shown New Hampshire divorce papers dated Aug 1928 with Clara divorcing Arthur on grounds of abusive treatment, drunkenness and affairs with other women. The papers stated that the couple had adopted a daughter Dorothy C Spidle, aged 8 years in 1928. The records showed that the divorce went through in Nov 1928 and Clara was awarded custody of Dorothy. However, Clara's death certificate showed that she died on the 25th Aug 1947, age 66, at the New Hampshire State Hospital psychiatric unit, where she had been a patient for 17 years. Cause of death was paresis due to syphilis.

Shirley then looked into her father George Rich's side of the tree, starting by visiting her father's sister Barbara, who showed her photos of Shirley's grandparents, George and Nellie Rich. George was a stoker in the Royal Navy and a boxer. His father, also George Rich, was born in Cape Town, South Africa, in 1866, came to England, and married Elizabeth. The 1901 census showed them in Birkenhead, with George as a labourer in a copper mine.

Shirley went to the National Library of South Africa in Cape Town and met a genealogist who showed her the baptism record of George Francis Rich, born 19 Aug 1866, the son of John and Mary Elizabeth Rich, at St John the Evangelist Church which was an Anglican church. Another child of the couple was Caroline Eliza Rich, baptised in 1858, and her death certificate stated that she was Caroline Eliza Brown, formerly Rich, age 58, mixed race.

Shirley was next shown the marriage certificate of John Henry Rich, carpenter, and Mary Elizabeth Otto. The marriage took place at St George's Cathedral in Cape Town in 1858, and one of the witnesses was an Esther Da Costa. The will of Esther's father Isaac Da Costa, dated 1850, left £600 to Caroline Otto for the support and maintenance of her and her children (Mary among them), and also left her a house. Shirley went to St George's Cathedral and met the Dean, who showed her baptism records for three of Caroline Otto's children in 1823, the same year that Caroline herself was baptised. Her baptism record stated that her parents were "Malay", i.e. Muslim. A report on the Cape Town Mission to the Malays said that Caroline Otto and several of her relatives had been baptised when they converted to Christianity. Shirley went to look at Rose Street, Caroline's place of residence on the baptism records. A local historian showed her a directory entry from 1859 where Caroline was listed as a laundress at 80 Waterkant Street, and told Shirley that slavery in South Africa was abolised in 1834 when Caroline was about 11, so she could have been born a slave.

Shirley went to Cape Town Central Library and met an historian who showed her the death record of Caroline's mother, also Caroline Otto, born Malagas (i.e. Madagascar), parents unknown, a washerwoman, age 50-60, widow, date of death 17 Aug 1848. The address given was that of Isaac Da Costa, 21 Upper End Church Street. The historian said that Caroline jr didn't actually receive the £600 and house left to her in Isaac's will as he was heavily in debt when he died. They speculated that the name Otto could have come from Caroline sr's slave owner if she was a slave, and that maybe she became a servant to the Da Costa family after the abolition of slavery.

[kiterunner]

I agree with everyone else that Caroline Otto jr was likely Isaac Da Costa's daughter - or his mistress. £600 seems a lot to leave to the daughter of a family servant (not that they had any evidence that Caroline sr was a family servant.)

I'm sure that Caroline sr's death record said she was a widow, so wouldn't the name Otto have come from her husband? Maybe he was given the name by his slave owner?

Oh, and in the first part of the programme, I would have liked to know what happened to Dorothy. She was only a child when Clara went into hospital.

[kiterunner]

Just in case anyone is looking for her - Clara's surname is spelt Spidell on the 1930 and 1940 US census records in the New Hampshire State Hospital.

[Guinevere]

*grumbles*

No marriage found was there? I couldn't see a father on the baptisms for the children so the obvious conclusion is that it was Isaac.

Interesting programme but would have been a lot more interesting if they had looked for facts rather than flights of fancy.

[maggie_4_7]

I agree with everyone else that Caroline Otto jr was likely Isaac Da Costa's daughter - or his mistress. £600 seems a lot to leave to the daughter of a family servant (not that they had any evidence that Caroline sr was a family servant.)

I'm sure that Caroline sr's death record said she was a widow, so wouldn't the name Otto have come from her husband? Maybe he was given the name by his slave owner?

Oh, and in the first part of the programme, I would have liked to know what happened to Dorothy. She was only a child when Clara went into hospital.

Dorothy married Freeman F Bisson in 1937 in Laconia, New Hampshire.

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2554&h=768448&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=utV552&_phstart=successSource

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=5241&h=103238&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=utV559&_phstart=successSource


https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=utV575&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=2469&gsfn=Freeman&gsln=Bisson&msbdy=1920&qh=cpprkoQAlf4mExpRcWKJdw%3D%3D&new=1&rank=1&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=37&fh=2&h=578003423&recoff=&ml_rpos=3


Looks like Freeman died in 1978

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/22223932

[kiterunner]

Thanks, Maggie.

[Olde Crone]

It's just occurred to me that most of the USA information was known to the British family, so there must have been some communication between them, certainly up to the point where the Spidels adopted Dorothy.

A most unsatisfying episode.

OC

[Ann from Sussex]

Her first husband had cancer for two years and died in 1916, so it wasn't that whichHer first husband had cancer for two years and died in 1916, so it wasn't that which prompted his will written in 1911 leaving everything to his mother

Yes, I noticed that glaring error too.

[Ann from Sussex]

Found this for an Arthur Spidle

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=US/PASS/CANBORDER/003857439

which fits age-wise and has him as Canadian, born in Nova Scotia. There is also a WW1 medal card for Arthur Spidle who served in the Cheshire Regiment which also fits. I suppose the two aren't mutally exclusive. Find My Past also has his marriage record and the passenger record from 1919 mentioned on the programme. I can't find him on the 1911 or any other census. I wonder if he was a seaman and that was why he came here? I can't remember what occupation was on the marriage certificate

[crawfie]

Found this for an Arthur Spidle

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=US/PASS/CANBORDER/003857439

which fits age-wise and has him as Canadian, born in Nova Scotia. There is also a WW1 medal card for Arthur Spidle who served in the Cheshire Regiment which also fits. I suppose the two aren't mutally exclusive. Find My Past also has his marriage record and the passenger record from 1919 mentioned on the programme. I can't find him on the 1911 or any other census. I wonder if he was a seaman and that was why he came here? I can't remember what occupation was on the marriage certificate

His occupation was soldier but can't remember which branch.

[Katarzyna]

Her first husband had cancer for two years and died in 1916, so it wasn't that whichHer first husband had cancer for two years and died in 1916, so it wasn't that which prompted his will written in 1911 leaving everything to his mother

Yes, I noticed that glaring error too.

I suspect that the rumours were probably true about her visiting pubs etc etc
which at the time would have been frowned upon as was muted. Perhaps her husband threw her out and made the will in favour of his mother at the time to make sure she did not benefit from it.

[maggie_4_7]

Thanks, Maggie.

I looked because I was curious too.

I haven't looked for her death properly yet.

Did you notice on the marriage document it said Dorothy was born in England.

Clara's is listed on Ancestry:

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2555&h=705758&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=utV655&_phstart=successSource

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=5242&h=62539&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=utV656&_phstart=successSource

[kiterunner]

I looked because I was curious too.

I haven't looked for her death properly yet.

Did you notice on the marriage document it said Dorothy was born in England.

Yes, I saw that.

[Ann from Sussex]

I thought Spidle was rather an odd name and did wonder if it was originally Spital (or a variant spelling) because OH and I had some friends with that surname...think of saying it with an American or Canadian accent. However, amongst loads of Dorothy Spittles (some with an s on the end and some not) FreeBMD has a Dorothy SPEIDEL registered Lancaster registration district in June qtr. 1900 so more or less the right part of the country. Obviously she would be too old to be adopted by Arthur and Clara but I wonder if she was a relative of Arthur's and Dorothy was a family name. Was Dorothy his natural daughter?

[Ann from Sussex]

However, amongst loads of Dorothy Spittles (some with an s on the end and some not) FreeBMD has a Dorothy SPEIDEL registered Lancaster registration district in June qtr. 1900 so more or less the right part of the country. Obviously she would be too old to be adopted by Arthur and Clara but I wonder if she was a relative of Arthur's and Dorothy was a family name. Was Dorothy his natural daughter?

Forget that. She is on the 1901 census with her family, father born in Germany so not likely to be any connection.

[Olde Crone]

Ann

I did wonder if Dorothy was Clara's child and the adoption was a cover up, but that would only work if she was on the passenger list.

OC

[maggie_4_7]

Ann

I did wonder if Dorothy was Clara's child and the adoption was a cover up, but that would only work if she was on the passenger list.

OC

She isn't with them ...

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2997&h=35161318&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=utV667&_phstart=successSource

...and I think she was born in 1920.

[Olde Crone]

Thanks Maggie, that puts that thought out of my mind, lol.

So when did Mr Spidel die and what did he die of? Should have been syphilis of course.

OC

[kiterunner]

So when did Mr Spidel die and what did he die of? Should have been syphilis of course.


The British Columbia, Canada, Death Index has an Arthur John Spidel death 9 Feb 1969 in Vancouver, age 82. The 1920 US census had Clara's husband Arthur down as born in Nova Scotia about 1888, and the 1891 Canadian census has an Arthur J Spidle age 4 born Nova Scotia, so it looks pretty likely to be him. Also Arthur J Spidell on the 1930 US census which I think is him, a farmer in Vermont. But of course the death index doesn't give his cause of death. He lived to a pretty ripe old age though.

[Olde Crone]

That's interesting Kate. I think it's unlikely he survived 30 years longer than Clara if he too had syphilis, which is another interesting thing.

OC

[NickiP]

The British Columbia, Canada, Death Index has an Arthur John Spidel death 9 Feb 1969 in Vancouver, age 82. The 1920 US census had Clara's husband Arthur down as born in Nova Scotia about 1888, and the 1891 Canadian census has an Arthur J Spidle age 4 born Nova Scotia, so it looks pretty likely to be him. Also Arthur J Spidell on the 1930 US census which I think is him, a farmer in Vermont. But of course the death index doesn't give his cause of death. He lived to a pretty ripe old age though.

Strangely the British Columbia Death Registrations on the Royal British Columbia Museum website (free to view) or Familysearch do not show that entry even though both go up past 1969. There isn't even an index entry for it even without an image of the death cert.

[kiterunner]

Oops, sorry, Nicki - his surname is spelt Spidle on the index.
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=dNx1197&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&qh=v7BVtp7ba5jjc5QlAS6byg%3D%3D&db=britcoldeath&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsln=spid*&gsln_x=1&MSAV=2&uidh=vm5&pcat=34&fh=5&h=666244&recoff=9&ml_rpos=6

The record comes up on the Royal BC Museum site if you copy and paste the registration number over from ancestry (1969-09-003241):
http://search-collections.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Image/Genealogy/a7c127bc-d539-487f-8bf7-9ada26dbd6be

Marital status given as married (separated), name of wife not known, and he died of bronchopneumonia and carcinoma of tongue. He also had an old healed myocardial infarction and cirrhosis of the liver.

[Olde Crone]

But he didn't have syphilis. That is really odd.

OC