View Full Version : Is Emmet Wilmott?
This pedigree:
https://www.geni.com/people/John-Wise-of-Totnes/6000000024007238871
shows John Wise dying January 1563/4. His eldest son, Thomas, is eighteen years and 4 months. His second son, John apparently married Emmet Vavasour. John junior presumably was 17 or younger at the time.
Sidenham is in the parish of Marystowe - roughly equidistant from Launceston and Tavistock. IE, west of Dartmoor.
"My" John Wise is of Totnes, ie east of Dartmoor. He is shown in modern pedigrees as son of John d Jan 1563/4.
Unfortunately, his wife predeceases him and is not named in the baptisms of their children. However, he is a grandfather when he dies in 1602, and his daughter Ellnor married in 1574.
Willmett Wyffe of Mr John Wysse was buried 8 March 1573/4.
"My" John has lands in Dawlish and Dittisham - both near Totnes.
Surely, he cannot be the son of John d 1563/4, though he might be a cousin.
And has anyone found Emmet as a variant of Wilmott?
Here is the Sidenham branch in 1620.
https://archive.org/stream/visitationcount02camdgoog#page/n377
Tellingly, there are no signatures, nor is Thomas' pedigree continued forward, so this family were only important by virtue of their wives, which is where the information must have been found. When my John died, he was immensely wealthy but a merchant, not a gentleman!
kiterunner
28-07-18, 09:13
Could John have been married twice?
Oh, he was. As soon as Wilmott died, he married Elizabeth.
But Elinor must have been born by 1560. Totnes records start in 1558. If the eldest children were baptised there, there are at least three baptised prior to 1558. Which means John must have been born some time prior to 1540 and so older than Thomas Wyse, son and heir of John.
I was planning to start a new thread asking about Emmota and Willmett Wyse, but then came across this old post, so will add my comments here.
Family trees posted on Ancestry and elsewhere identify them both as being daughters of men named Richard Vavasour. but in Willmett’s case I think that is this is fanciful . I would be delighted to be proved wrong, but provide here what I think can be accepted as credible.
The most complete source of information for Emmota, (or Emmet) is a book named “Col. John Wise: His Ancestor and Descendants”, published in 1918. The tree it provides starts from one Oliver Wise, living at the time of the Norman Conquest, and goes forward to about 1900. About half way down there is a John Wise, married to ‘Emmota, d. Richard Vavasour “of Hazelwood”’. It shows 4 sons: William (1560–1626, married to Frisweda), Samuel (married to Wilmote, who was mayor of Totnes in 1630 and died in Nov 1633), Henry and Christopher.
The only original source I have found for Willmett is in an article published in 1890 in “The Western Antiquary, vol. IX, page 191, which reads:
1573, May 13, “Willmett the wife of Mr. John Wisse” was buried and on 6 November the same year, Mr. Wise marries Elizabeth Smythe, widow, and during his mayoralty in 1574, his daughter Elizabeth was baptized.
This John Wise (also spelled Wyse or Wyess) was definitely not the same one that married Emmota, but was John Wise ‘the Elder’, governor of the merchant guild at Totnes for 20 years and mayor of Totnes in 1574 and again in 1587. He was probably born on 2 Oct 1541 and had at least two sons by Willmett, named Christopher (c. 1566–1628) and John ‘the Younger’ (d. 1621), plus several more sons and daughters by Elizabeth. John the Elder died in 1602 and his Will is available online (PROB 11/100). Both Christopher and John the Younger served terms as mayor of Totnes, and their Wills are also online (PROB 11/155 and PROB 11/140). John the Younger’s had a son named Sampson, (c. 1612–1678) whose granddaughter Elizabeth married Dr. William Chadder of Totnes, and whose 3 daughters – Mary, Dorothy and Sarah – have many descendants living today, including myself. Willmett is my 9xGreat-Grandmother.
Several trees on Ancestry and other websites identify Emmota’s father as Sir Richard Vavasour (1495–1563), married to Lady Margaret Hodgson. He was born at Copmanthorpe, and died at Birkin (both in Yorkshire), while others claim that Wilmet was also a Vavasour. One names her parents as the same as those of Emmota. Others state that she was Emmota’s niece, with a father also named Rychard (1513–1563), married to Dorothy Clapton.
But a book named “The Register of the Guild of Corpus Christi in the City of York” published in 1872, states that this Rychard was born in Birkin in 1513 married Dorothy, daughter of John Clapton Esq. but died without issue. Dorothy then remarried Thomas Appleyard, alderman of York, and died in 1587.
I have found no evidence that Willmett’s maiden name was actually Vavasour, and think this attribution is due to a false identification of Willmett with Emmota. I would be delighted to be proved wrong.
Thank you for that useful information.
Totnes parish records are online.
It is impossible to tell across 450 years, but it looks very much as if the original records were in a state of considerable disorder, a mere twenty years after they were started, so the first few pages are a jumble of entries from between 1556 and 1560. It looks in addition as if several pages have been lost, and the entries only start properly in Feb 1564/5.
John has children:
Barnard bp 1566 (or possibly Leonard, as a Leonard is buried a few months later)
Eustes 1568
John 1569 (not clear if this is bp or bur)
Joane 1570
Nicholas 1572
then
Elizabeth 1574
William 1576
Samuel 1578
Rebecca 1580
Mary 1583
Richard 1585
I do wonder whether whether the Samuel who was mayor of Totnes was the son of "our" John Wise, born 1578?
I am descended from Christopher (on the assumption of virtue on the part of my female ancestors!) He would appear to be born in 1564 or earlier.
It is some time since I have looked at this, but without any marriages or references to mothers at baptism etc, I would not be confident that John was only married twice. Christopher Wise's widow was Emlyn nee Trosse. He was her third husband and she went on to marry Humphrey Speccott, and did not die until 1659.
The Will of John Wise the Elder , proved in 1602, mentions children Christopher, John, Eustace, Nicholas, William, Samuel and Richard; also daughters Mary Wise, Elenor (?) Austyn, and three more, the wives of his sons-in-law: Walter Smyth, Bartholomew Laskey and Christopher Brooking. The Will also bequeathed to Christopher the suit of clothes that he wore for his portrait by Nicholas Hilliard.
The Will of Christopher, proved in 1629, refers to his 'mother' Elizabeth (actually stepmother), his wife Emlyn, a recently deceased brother John, a brother Nicholas and a brother-in-law Bartholomew Laskey.
The Will of John wise the Younger (proved in 1621) mentions his wife, Dorothy, his brothers Christopher and Nicholas, his brother-in-law Bartholomew Leskye, and several children, including Sampson, then still not 21.
As we know, There was another family named Wise in Totnes.
The will of William Wise (d. 1626) mentions two brothers, Samuel and Richard, two sons, William and John, and 3 daughters, Anne, Elizabeth and Catherine. Correlating that with the information in the book about 'Col. John Wise' this William must have been the son of the John and Emmota Wise.
Samuel's Will was proved in 1634, and mentions his wife, Wilmot, sons Samuel and Christopher, daughters Fridiswid, Elizabeth, Rebecca and Sarah.
Since the Wills of Christopher and John do not mention their brother Samuel, it is likely that he died before them, which is why I think that the mayor in 1630 was the son of Emmota and brother of William
The real enigma in all this is the relationship of the two families. Where does John Wise the Elder and his descendants fit in the larger Wise family tree? It is hard to believe that they were unrelated, but I have found no plausible common ancestor.
Don't you think it more likely that John and Christopher left legacies to siblings of the whole blood, and William and Samuel did the same?
Unfortunately Vivian's book isn't online. His pedigrees indicate his sources. For reference, this shows the Harris pedigree: https://heraldryofthewestcountry.wordpress.com/2017/01/07/harris-of-hayne-a-niggle/
When Jennings Cropper Wise wrote his book, he would not have had access to many of the sources available to us. Christopher Wise's children appear in the 1620 visitation. No doubt their father's money made them acceptable brides. But no Wise family of Totnes appear in the Visitation (and I also note that Eustace's son, also Eustace was very, very Catholic - and had the decency to make free the slave by whom he had several children)
Your point about the importance of full brothers is very interesting. When I first went through those Wills I was not aware of two wives, so did not distinguish between full brothers and half-brothers.
Your point also about the lack of modern resources for those earlier antiquarians has also made me think hard. It now looks as though for all the data after 1564, those authors (Colby, Vivian and Jennings Wise) all relied on the same information supplied from a single archive in the possession of the grandchildren of Ayshford Wise (my GGGF’s banking partner and MP for Totnes in 1812-1818).
I am therefore willing to reconsider the tidy solution to this whole question. If Emmot was a misreading of the name Willmett, then John Wise the Elder could have been the son of John and Alice (nee Harris) who appears in all those original trees. That would then make William (married to another Wilmote) and Samuel (married to Frisweda) to be the sons of Elizabeth Smythe, and half brothers of Christopher, Eustace, John and Nicholas. That is very clean, but hard to substantiate. Maybe you knew all this when you first started this thread, and it has taken me a while to absorb it all.
btw, I downloaded a copy of Vivian's "Visitations" book some years ago, and I think it is still downloadable for free from https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Visitations_of_the_County_of_Devon.html?id=Gmq lIibS95IC.
Visitations are usually fallible, but helpful. A bit like censuses, the herald would turn up and ask personal questions. The trustworthy ones have ages for the children and are signed by whoever provided the info. Where you have two brothers providing the information, it can be very illuminating as showing what is important to each of them.
Similarly, Inquisitions Post Mortem are taken within a year or so of the death of the landowner. A jury of local men find out what land the dead man had held, and the age of his heir. Once the heir is over 24, then the ages are very approximate. But if the heir were under age, the King (or Queen) could get an additional cut, so the ages are likely to be accurate.
John of Totnes has a daughter Ellnor marrying in 1574. Realistically, she was probably born in about 1558 or earlier. Even if John were only 16 when she was born, this would put his date of birth about 1540 or earlier. You quoted a dob of 2 October 1541. It's not impossible that earlier parish registers were at some stage available. But it would clearly make him older than Thomas Wise of Sydenham.
The contemporary sources I have seen suggest that there is no link between the Totnes and the Sydenham families, unless it is several generations earlier. All the Totnes men describe themselves as merchants, rather than gentlemen. According to the Devon Archive Catalogue, there are a couple of references to men called Wyse in Totnes in the 1460s.
My gut feeling is that two hundred years ago it was felt that there was a connection, and I have family stories which were proved right by the 1841 census, so there may well have been one, but it has got to be further back in history.
Such a pity that Devon wills were destroyed.
btw, Nicholas Wyse on the Visitation left a will. He died in London, but names brothers Thomas and Perse. wife Elizabeth, brother in law John Drew in Cornwall, his sister, young brother Lawrence and father in law Lawrence Foxley.
His poor widow made her will just a month later.
Yes, I went back and read your original post pointing out that John the Elder had to be younger than Thomas of Sydenham. So the reference in his Will to his daughter Elnor Austin and the marriage record for Elnore Wysse and Tomas Awstyn in 1574 does negate the tidy theory of the Emmet/Wilmet mix-up.
That leaves he question of William and Samuel: were they half-brothers or distant relatives? The 1605 charter of the Spanish company lists the 557 original members, of whom 43 were from Totnes (many more than from any town other than London, Bristol and Exeter). Of those, 6 were named Wise: Christopher, John, Eustace, Samuel, William and Nicholas. It would be cool to think of them as 6 brothers.
However, the John Wise who married first Mary Full and then Dorothy Brooking, was the son of William Wise, so it looks as though there were two Williams and two Samuels living at Totnes at that time. Is that your conclusion?
A book called "The Good Town of Totnes" first published in 1964, states that a Roger Wise was a substantial householder there in 1425, and in about 1439 Reginald wise leased land to build houses outside the main gate.
However, the John Wise who married first Mary Full and then Dorothy Brooking, was the son of William Wise, so it looks as though there were two Williams and two Samuels living at Totnes at that time. Is that your conclusion?
Help! When was this John living? I cannot find either marriage (though I suspect that marriage settlements were more important than any church service) or references in wills.
John Wise, baptised 8 Feb 1635, died 26 July 1702. First wife, Mary, daughter of Lewes Full of Ash, died 21 Nov 1677. Second wife, Dorothy, daughter of Christopher Brooking, died 21 March 1693.
This John is shown in Vivian as the son of John Wise who died in 1670, and his wife, Susanna Prestwood, who died in 1684.
I have a note that according to a document in the Cheshire Archives (ref. DBW/J/A/3, dated 1736), a property had been divided into 3 parts after the death of one Lewes Full, the split had been agreed to by Mary Sawle, daughter of Mary Wise, (a sister of Lewes Full and the wife of John Wise of Totnes gentleman, deceased); John Wise of Totnes Esq. and Lewis Wise of New Inn, Middlesex, only surviving sons of the said John Wise, deceased, by his second wife, Dorothy.
I also have verified that the first edition of Burke's 'Commoners', published in 1835, contained a pedigree supplied by Ayshford Wise, more or less the same that was later incorporated into the books by Copley, Vivian and Jennings Wise. It claimed descent from the John who was married to 'Emma Vavasour'. The article is suspect on other ways: it states that the ownership of the manor of 'Little Totnes' came into the Wise family in 1602, but another source (A Graphic and Historical Sketch of the Antiquities of Totnes
By William Cotton) states that in 1730 it was still owned by one Waltham Savery, and was acquired by the Wise family after that date.
I am therefore now almost totally convinced that Wise family in the 18th 0r early 19th century made the convenient mistake of confusing one John Wise (second son of John and Alice, whose descendants could claim the use of his coat of arms) with their ancestor John Wise the Elder, who was not an armiger.
Waltham Savery looks as if he belongs to the Savery family of Slade, and it looks as if there are IPMs for that family, which should mention the property if it were owned by them post 1602.
This might be an easier route, if time consuming:
Devon Record Office: OKLEY PARKER OF SHARPHAM
This record is held by Devon Archives and Local Studies Service (South West Heritage Trust)
See contact details
Reference: 90M-0
Title: Devon Record Office: OKLEY PARKER OF SHARPHAM
Description:
A collection of about 800 deeds with a small amount of estate papers and four estreat rolls. The estate comprises Sharpham, with its House, Ashprington manor, including Langham Woods, Hollabeare, Frogmore, Tibbecombe, and World's End; Wood Barton at Blackawton; the Little Totnes estate; Combeshead at Diptford; and the Washbourne estate in Harberton and Halwell. The chief interest of the collection lies in the position of the lands, along the navigational Dart, and in the attraction exercised by it to naval families. The estates were built up in three stages; in the mid-18th century by Captain Philemon Pownoll, R.N. (the builder of the present Sharpham House) and Israel Pownoll, master shipbuilder; in the early 19th century by John Bastard (of another naval family), and in 1844-5 by Richard Durant. The records end abruptly at this point. The several histories of the different pieces of property can be pushed back, in most cases to the mid-16th century. Traces of earlier, but since destroyed, estates appear. In particular, those of the Giles family of Bowden, and the Blackallers of Sharpham, whose property passed to Gilbert Yarde of Bradley about 1700. Smaller families were the Knowlings of Washbourne, and the Moyseys, Perrotts and Cockeys of Ashprington. A good many merchants and lawyers of Totnes and Dartmouth are also represented. The collection provides a useful and not too bulky source for study of the life of the South Hams from 1540 to 1844. See of 2 articles by Marcus Binney on Sharpham House in Country Life April 1969, 1797Z/.
Date: 1538-1871
Have looked at TL Stoate's Devon Surveys. In the 1520s, there are Wises scattered all over Devon, but only rich ones in Marystow, and none in Totnes.
None in Totnes in the 1540s either, but there are a couple in Dawlish.
In the 1619 survey of shipping there are two sailors in their twenties in Dawlish, one called Christopher.
"History of Parliament online" says that Richard Savery of Harberton (c.1502-1572), younger brother of Christopher, bought the manor of Little Totnes from the 2nd Earl of bath in 1542. I don't know if this just covered the 'manorial rights' i.e. taxes, or also the actual real estate.
Christopher's descendants are better documented than Richard's. Nine generations later, his descendant, another Christopher (born 1758), married the daughter of John Wise of Wonwell. I am not sure how Waltham was related to that Christopher, or if it matters. But this reinforces my sense that the Wises in Totnes in the 18th and early 19th centuries were obfuscating their roots.
Ayshford Wise MP, had at least two sons. One John Ayshford Wise, became MP for Staffordshire. His younger brother, Reginald, was convicted of fraud and transported to Australia in 1847.
Because I'm lazy, I'm popping the History of Parliament Online reference here: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/savery-richard-1503-72
It's really useful, because it refers to two theses on Totnes. Looking at Stoate, it's fascinating how, within a few generations, the surnames of the town had changed.
Pinefamily
05-06-21, 00:04
I've been following this thread with interest.
Not sure if it's been mentioned above and I missed it, but there is a lengthy description of the Wise family in Worthy's Devon Wills.
Thank you, Pinefamily. We all of us have to be grateful to transcribers of wills they are often all we have to aid us in disentangling families. However, by the time he reaches the Tudor period, he is accepting others' conclusions.
In Stoate's Devon Taxes
1581 Survey for Tottnes Parish
John Wysse goods £16 (no other Wises named in the parish)
Meanwhile, Joan Saverye wid has lands £6
Nicholas £4, Christopher £8, Stephen £13 - all lands.
Total assessment for the parish £37 8s 4d
Stoate says that this is not a reflection of their actual wealth: nobody seems to have been assessed on more than £20 of goods, nobody was assessed on wages, and the shift was towards land - which means freeholders. They were assessed in total 4s in the pound on land (20%!) and 2s 8d in the pound on goods (13.2%)
In the 1647 Assessment, a membrane is missing for Totnes, and some 60 entries are illegible.
Miraculously, an entry is legible for Mr Savery of Slade who is assessed 2s for the manor of Little Totnes. The total assessment for the parish is £14 9s 0d.
Little Totnes has been a digression from the main theme of this thread, but for the record, as far as I can tell this was a district containing farmland just south of the town, and some fields there were owned in some capacity by a member of the Wise family. There was also the title 'Lord f the Manor' of Little Totnes, which seems to have had n income stream referred to as 'manorial dues'. I think that this had been in the Savery family since around 1570.
John Wise (1750-1807), the recorder of Totnes, had a sister named Mary, who married a Christopher Savery, and it is not unlikely that he or his father had purchased the right to those dues.
Back on Emmota/Willmett:
I note that the pedigrees published by Burke, Colby and Vivian all explicitly state that that John Wise, whose mother was Alice Harris, was the second son. The 1918 book written by Jennings Wise claims this John was the eldest son, (presumably because by then someone had noticed the age problem). I find it totally implausible that the elder son would move to Totnes and become the leading merchant in town, leaving his younger brother to inherit the family estates.
I also note that Christopher Wise (the elder) appointed as one of the executors of his Will written in July 1628 "my good friende and cossen Thomas Prestwood", who was also one of the witnesses. This Thomas Prestwood had been a merchant based in Totnes since about 1600 (see https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/prestwood-thomas-1570-1655 ).
He was mayor of Totnes in 1628 and 1643, MP in 1628-19 as well, but then took the wrong side in the Civil War. It seems that his eldest daughter, Frisweda, married Samuel Wise and his second daughter Susanna married John the son of William Wise, and from who all the subsequent generations of the Wise family in Totnes were descended.
This makes it all the more unbelievable that there were two unrelated wealthy men named William Wise, and two Samuels in Totnes at the same time.
Reading the History of Parliament Online, and the will of William Wise in conjunction with the Totnes parish records:
William Wise made his will in 1625/6 when all his children, including John, were under age. His wife was Frysowyde (various spellings!)
Walter Goodridge made his will in 1626 naming his brother Thomas Prestwood and his sister Mary P. Walter also in his will mentions his aunt Babb. Savery, Brooking and Wise are some of the few Totnes names that I did not spot in her will - she names immense numbers of her extended family. (Improbable as it seems, it looks as if Mary Dowse married Geoffrey Babb in 1558)
Apologies for disappearing down rabbit holes, but I have connections with the Dowse family.
Samuel Wise, will made1633, has wife Wilmott and numerous children (several under age), including a daughter Fridiswid, clearly recently married to Thomas Triggs.
It seems more likely that It was William's widow who married Thomas Prestwood after his first wife Mary nee Goodridge died:
28 May 1646 Metc? Mrs? Fryswid Prestwood, wyfe of Mr Thomas Prestwood buryed
NB The couple were married in Totnes, but the clerk made such a meal of their names that I had to hunt under Thomas to find them.
In those circumstances it would be natural for his daughter to marry her son. (Though it is possible that Wilmott died and Samuel remarried)
I am trying to document all this in a more formal way, and will eventually send a draft for comment, but with regard to Thos. Prestwood, Vivian is is the source (page 615) of the info that his second wife Frideswide was the widow of Samuel, and History of Parliament must have taken its info from there.
But in his Will Samuel names his 'wellbeloved wife Wilmott Wise' and he probably knew best.
Wikipedia (as of now) thinks Thomas the MP was the son of George, who was actually his brother (and Vivian says Thomas was executor of George's will).
The Will of Wilmott Wise, 'relict of Samuell Wise' is available. She spelled her name Wilmote. The Will was written in 1646 and proved in 1655. It mentions her son Christopher (married to Susan), and daughters Elizabeth Shapley, Fridiswide Trigges, Rebecca Bambridge, Sara Wise, and a brother Thomas Martyn (so she must have been WIlmote Martyn originally). But her Fridiswide was living and still married in 1646.
I put my head in my hands when I read that will, as I have proved that my ancestor was Elizabeth Shapleigh, nee Wise. However "my" Elizabeth Wise was born in 1601, married in 1620 to Robert Shapleigh and had at least eight children by 1641.
Luckily, none of the Victorian genealogists realised there were Shapleighs in my tree, so I ploughed a virgin furrow. Otherwise, I might have had a whole load of myths to dispell.
I think Samuel and Wilmote's daughter, Elizabeth, was baptised on 27 Jan 1610 and married John Shapley in Totnes on 16 June 1634. I think the one who married Robert Shapley on 20 Jun 1620 was Christopher's daughter, baptised as you said on 19 Jun 1601. John and Robert were probably both sons of an earlier John Shapleigh, who was mayor of Totnes in 1602 and again in 1618. Robert took his turn as mayor in 1657.
There was also another Elizabeth Wise, probably the daughter of Eustace, baptised on 18 Oct 1602,
I have seen Chancery records which prove the identity of Robert Shapleigh's wife. There is an amazing description of his funeral, with all the costs itemised. From memory, it cost about £500, with wine being brought up river from Dartmouth to Totnes.
vBulletin® v3.8.7 PL3, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.