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DavidByrne
15-07-18, 11:39
Mary Carew was born in St Kew, Cornwall, on 17 Dec 1750, to John and Deborah Carew. An older brother, George, had been born in 1748, and a younger sister, Elizabeth was born a few years later in 1753. A baptism record exists for Mary, but George and Elizabeth are unsubstantiated "assertions" contained in various Ancestry family trees. Deborah Carew unfortunately died in April 1754, leaving Mary and her siblings without a mother. I can find no record of John subsequently remarrying.

Mary Hann appears in an Ancestry family tree as being born on EXACTLY the same date and in exactly the same location as Mary Carew, with her parents John Hann and Ann Welsman. Another version of the family tree lists her as BEING Mary Carew, but at the same time being a sibling within the Hann family with brothers and sisters bearing the Hann name. I contacted the owner of that tree, but he claimed no knowledge of how that came to be, other than stating that the Welsman history was "complicated". Frustratingly, one of those family trees is now no longer available.

Many Ancestry (and other) family trees show that a "Mary Carew", with the same birth date and place as above, married my forebear, Henry Cottrell, though there is no marriage certificate available. This had always intrigued me, as St Kew is some distance from the area around Exeter, where the Cottrell and Hann families lived. There were close links between the Cottrell and Hann families in Devon, with several instances of intermarriage.

My theory is this: that on the death of Deborah Carew in 1754, Mary Carew was adopted by, or at least sent to live with, the Hann family in Devon. There she went by the name of Mary Ann Hann, until her marriage to Henry Cottrell, which was done as Mary Carew. The children of that marriage included both a John Hann Cottrell and a Robert Carew Cottrell (my forbear). Robert in turn had a son who was also named John Hann Cottrell, which suggests that both the Hann and Carew names were significant in the Cottrell family history.

I've done some on-line research of the Devon Heritage Centre's records, and I've found reference to a "John Hann, Ann [presumably née Welsman] his wife from Sidbury" (this is where "my" Hann family were based), which appears to be a removal order for the family from Lympstone Parish (on the grounds of poverty - they would ordinarily be sent back to their "home" parish rather than become a burden on another). Many Removal Orders specify family members by name, so I'm very anxious to see this material.

Since I don't live in England (NZ in fact) it's not so easy to do this research, but I am planning to be in Exeter for a few days in early August, and will certainly be seeking access to this archive and a couple of others which may also have some relevance.

The advice I'm seeking from the Forum is, in order to maximise my chances of success, are there other records or areas of research that you could suggest I might try to solve this conundrum? Obviously I've exhausted to the best of my abilities the various BMD records, seeking in particular to find info on the alleged "Mary Ann Hann" who just happens to have the same details as Mary Carew, and anything relating to the marriage of Mary and Henry Cottrell - but without any success. The Devon archive includes Overseers' account books and Churchwardens' account books, and I'll certainly be looking carefully at those (and in particular for Sidbury and Lympstone parishes). But can any readers think of any other left-field ideas for research, bearing in mind we're talking about the 1750s?

I'm really hoping that I can "prove" my theory as it in turn opens up a long line of ancestors via the Carew family which has been reasonably well documented. And of course, residing in NZ, the chances of coming back to Exeter any time soon are not great. So any ideas, suggestions?

ElizabethHerts
15-07-18, 12:06
Mary Carew was born in St Kew, Cornwall, on 17 Dec 1750, to John and Deborah Carew.

Mary Carew was not BORN on 17th December 1750, but was baptised then:

Day Month 17-Dec
Year 1750
Parish Or Reg District Kew, St.
Forename Mary
Surname CAREW
Sex dau
Father Forename John
Mother Forename Deborah
Residence
Father Rank Profession
Notes
Transcriber Notes
Transcriber Christine Parker

From Cornwall OPC website.
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=baptisms&id=4454387

ElizabethHerts
15-07-18, 12:09
George and Elizabeth are from the same family.

Day Month 04-Nov
Year 1748
Parish Or Reg District Kew, St.
Forename George
Surname CAREW
Sex son
Father Forename John
Mother Forename Deborah
Residence
Father Rank Profession
Notes
Transcriber Notes
Transcriber Christine Parker

Day Month 02-Feb
Year 1753
Parish Or Reg District Kew, St.
Forename Elizabeth
Surname CAREW
Sex Dau
Father Forename John
Mother Forename Deborah
Residence
Father Rank Profession
Notes
Transcriber Notes
Transcriber Christine Parker


Note again these are baptism dates.

You can use Cornwall OPC website free of charge.

ElizabethHerts
15-07-18, 12:13
Deborah Carew's burial:

Day Month 30-Apr
Year 1754
Parish Or Reg District Kew, St.
Forename Deborah
Surname CAREW
Age
Residence
Notes
Transcriber Notes Burial in Woolen
Transcriber Christine Parker

Note: There are no further Carew burials in this parish.

ElizabethHerts
15-07-18, 12:44
The baptism of Mary Carew at the bottom of the page (you need to register and sign in):

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GGFY-VNH?i=58&cc=1769414&cat=1919556

ElizabethHerts
15-07-18, 12:46
You need to find the parish register where the alleged marriage of Henry Cottrell and Mary took place.

ElizabethHerts
15-07-18, 12:49
I thought this sounded familiar - we have been here before!

http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=24919

ElizabethHerts
15-07-18, 12:58
If you are going to Devon Archives I'd e-mail in advance and see if they can locate the marriage for you. Also, pre-order any documents you wish to view.

kiterunner
15-07-18, 17:39
Doesn't the old thread say that Henry jr married a Mary Hann? If so, then it could be that some people have got the two Marys confused in their trees.

DavidByrne
16-07-18, 07:43
Thanks, ElizabethHerts for your digging around - I had already located these records - and my apologies, yes, 17 Dec 1750 was Mary Carew's baptism, not birth. Just sloppiness on my part.

Yes, I have posted on the subject of Mary Carew previously, but at that stage I was not sure whether Mary Carew b St Kew was the "right" Mary Carew, or whether Mary Carew b Bickleigh was the "right" one. But the new information I'm trying to clarify is this apparent conflation of a Mary Hann with a Mary Carew, who have been given exactly the same birth details.

I hadn't thought of Kiterunner's suggestion that the Mary Hann that Henry jr married might have been confused with the "other" Mary Hann. That's a real possibility, though their births (oops, baptisms) are some 44 years apart.

There is widespread acceptance that Mary Carew from St Kew married Henry Cottrell, but no one at all seems to be able to offer proof of this (and that proof could be instrumental in resolving who Mary Carew actually was). I realise that I need to find this marriage (where others have failed), but where would the "RO" (record office, I presume) be in this instance - assuming we are talking about Devon? Would it be via the Devon Archives at the Southwest Heritage Trust, which I am planning to visit anyway? Or would it be elsewhere? And is it likely to have BDM records that have not been digitised and made available on-line?

What I'm really hoping is that someone might have a lightbulb moment and suggest a completely different direction for research that I hadn't already thought of. I appreciate that these moments are rare, but I remain hopeful . . .

Any which way, thank you both for your interest and responses - I'm determined to resolve this enigma and I feel so close in some ways, yet so far away in others.

ElizabethHerts
16-07-18, 12:10
The Ancestry trees seem to be fairly unreliable. I wonder if they honed in on the second names of the sons (Carew and Hann) and attributed them to the mother. There seems to be no source at all for the mother's name and no marriage found.

I'd ignore them and try your best to find the marriage. It might mean recourse to the old tried-and-tested methods of trawling through parish registers, as we did in pre-Internet days. This is why I suggest writing to the Record Office in Exeter and see if they can help with your search. You have the baptism of (supposedly) the eldest child so your time frame is quite limited. If they can't/won't help with the search, identify adjacent parishes to the abode of the groom and search those parishes. You probably want to look at the baptisms for clues too, as not everything gets transcribed.

Good luck!

DavidByrne
17-07-18, 00:05
Hmm, I doubt that what happened was that someone honed in on the Carew and Hann names as you suggest, as for a long time the accepted wisdom "out there" was that son Robert was "Robert Cavey Cottrell". It wasn't until I looked at the handwriting in the parish record very carefully that it became clear that it was indeed "Robert Carew Cottrell". Since then most other researchers also seem to have adopted "Carew" as his middle name.

Please excuse my ignorance, but when you refer to the "Record Office in Exeter" I assume you're meaning the Devon Heritage Centre at Sowton, Exeter?

Once again my thanks for your interest and assistance - it's much appreciated.

ElizabethHerts
17-07-18, 06:14
Please excuse my ignorance, but when you refer to the "Record Office in Exeter" I assume you're meaning the Devon Heritage Centre at Sowton, Exeter?

Once again my thanks for your interest and assistance - it's much appreciated.

Sorry, David, yes, when I talk about the Record Office it is my shorthand for Devon Archives and Local Studies which is at the Devon Heritage Centre at Sowton, just outside Exeter (opened 2005). I grew up in East Devon (Honiton) so I know the places you talk about well. I used to have riding lessons at Sidbury. My Mum, who started the family history research, used to go into Exeter to use the Record Office there, but she died in 2004. A lot of the "Record Offices" have been rebranded and some have been relocated into purpose-built premises (Devon, Wiltshire, and this year Cornwall.)

This is from Facebook:
Archives and Cornish Studies Service
19 hrs ·
*Advance warning!* On September 1st 2018 Cornwall Record Office will close permanently, followed by the Cornish Studies Library on September 8th. This will allow us to prepare for our move to Kresen Kernow, Cornwall’s new archive centre. You can find out more about it here: http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/kresenkernow or join us on a tour of the new site in September.