Who Do You Think You Are - Olivia Colman 9th Jul [Archive] - Genealogists' Forum

kiterunner

09-07-18, 22:33

Episode summary
Olivia Colman lives in London with her husband and children, but she grew up in Norfolk. She knew quite a lot about her father's side of the family as her paternal grandparents lived with her family when she was a child, but she didn't know much about her mother's side of the family (her mother's maiden name being Leakey, apart from being told that one of their female ancestors was French.

Olivia went to Norfolk to visit her parents, and her uncle Richard also visited to show them the family tree he had done. He said that the Colman side of the family were all from Norfolk, being agricultural labourers, postmen, and the like, but that the other side of the family was more varied. The tree he had done went back as far as the birth of Richard Campbell Bazett in 1766 on the island of St Helena. Uncle Richard showed Olivia portraits of Richard Campbell Bazett and his wife Sarah. He said that Richard Campbell Bazett worked in London for the East India Company in the early 1800's.

Olivia went to London to meet an historian who showed her a page from Richard Campbell Bazett's accounts book, which tallied large amounts of money. Richard had also worked in Calcutta some of the time, and in 1790 he married Margaret Ann Hampton, spinster, there. There was a church court case Bazett v Bazett dated 1808 in which Richard sued for a legal separation from Margaret, saying that she had had an affair with a musician called Frederick Dizi. The church court had granted the separation. Olivia then went to Westminster to find out whether Richard had gone on to have a private Act of Parliament passed to give him a divorce, allowing him to remarry, and she was shown in the Parliamentary Archives that such an Act was indeed passed in 1809. Richard's will, dated 17 Jan 1833, mentioned his wife Sarah and his five sons, all with the middle name Young. The eldest son, William Young Bazett, was baptised in Jan 1806, and the second son, Charles Young Bazett, Olivia's direct ancestor, was born on the 12th Sep 1807 according to his army papers, so both born before the legal separation from Margaret.

The 1871 census showed Charles Young Bazett in Reading, age 63, a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the Indian Army, born London, with wife Harriot, also 63, born East Indies Kissengunge (Kishanganj), and three servants. Olivia went to Kishanganj in North East India to find out more. It is now a city of over 100,000 people, but was a village in Harriot's time. Olivia went to the British Club and met an historian who showed her Charles and Harriot's marriage certificate, naming Harriot's father as William Slessor of the East India Company. William was born in 1778 and became a captain by 1804. The historian had not managed to find a record of William's marriage nor of Harriot's birth, which suggested that Harriot's mother might have been a native Indian woman. The historian showed Olivia an administrator's list of William's possessions, and a newspaper cutting which said that the Madras Courier had reported that Captain Slessor had accidentally shot himself in the head at Kissengunge and died, in 1810.

A lawyer's letter showed that William's mother, Harriot Elizabeth Slessor, had paid for Miss Harriot Slessor's voyage to England. Olivia went to Calcutta to see where Harriot would have sailed from, and met an historian who showed her a passenger list from 1811, with Miss Harriot Slessor, age 7, listed, and no servant named as her attendant. The Master of the ship was a James Fairfax. The voyage would have taken about six months, and the ship arrived in London on the 10th May 1812.

Olivia met another historian who showed her the will of Louisa Girardot, Harriot sr's sister, dated 1824, which left £300 to great-niece Harriot Slessor, "now residing with Miss Mills", who ran a boarding school in Bristol. A codicil dated four years later added an extra £500. A passenger list from 1832 showed that Harriot travelled back to India, arriving on the ship Orient. The historian thought that she was probably Anglo-Indian and travelled back to India to find a husband. He showed Olivia an 1832 marriage record between William Trigge Garrett and Harriot. William was a Lieutenant in the Bengal Artillery and also appeared on the passenger list of the Orient. A death record showed that William died on the 25th Jul 1833, age 29.

Olivia then went to St John's Church, Calcutta, and met another historian who showed her a letter written by Charles Young Bazett in Cheltenham in 1838, to his brother Richard jr, telling how he had met Harriot four years previously and fell in love with her, but was refused, and had recently met her again in England at her brother-in-law's house, and had been accepted this time. There was a photo of Charles and Harriot, and Harriot did look Anglo-Indian. Another letter to Richard, dated 21 Sep 1839, said that Harriot would soon give birth, and she had written part of the letter. The couple had four children: Richard, Mary, Charles, and Fanny. Harriot Elizabeth Slessor's will left £50 to "India Harriot". Olivia was shown a book about Harriot sr and the Slessor family which included documents owned by a descendant of the family who lived in the Scottish Highlands.

Olivia then went to Scotland to meet her fourth cousin Geordie, who showed her a portrait of Harriot Elizabeth Slessor. Harriot sr lived most of her life in Portugal where her husband served in the army, and she wrote diaries and letters which have been typed up to form the book which Olivia had previously seen. There was a letter about her leaving her two eldest sons at school in England with her sister Louisa agreeing to have them for the school holidays. The letter also mentioned saying goodbye to Harriot sr's mother, Anne Judith Bristow, in England. Geordie had a picture of Anne Judith Bristow, the wife of John Bristow who was an MP in Norfolk. Anne Judith's naturalisation papers showed that she was born in France, the daughter of Paul Foissin, a French Huguenot. So she was the French ancestor who Olivia had heard rumours about.

kiterunner

09-07-18, 22:33

I enjoyed that!

But.....was that really a wedding photo (1838) or did I misunderstand?

OC

That seemed to be what they said.

kiterunner

09-07-18, 22:52

I would like to know how they know that William Young Bazett and Charles Young Bazett were children of Sarah's and not of Margaret Ann's, as they seemed to assume in the programme. Probably there is something we weren't shown? Or did William's baptism show his mother's name? I don't think I saw it although they gave the date.

Guinevere

10-07-18, 05:22

I enjoyed that so much. I love Olivia anyway and the programme confirmed everything I've ever thought about her. I love that she thought she was more interesting than she believed before.

A fascinating story, I wondered about the photo as well.

kiterunner

10-07-18, 06:42

Another thing - they kept going on about how Harriot left her mother behind in India, but how did they know that Harriot's mother didn't die before Harriot left India?

Merry

10-07-18, 07:02

The very first photo of a clear human face was taken around 1839/40 by John William Draper. The earliest image to survive is of his sister, Dorothy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_William_Draper

This 1838 wedding photo looks (to me) like it was taken in a studio in the late 1850s or 1860s.

Ann from Sussex

10-07-18, 07:08

Loved, loved, loved it! It was very interesting and made all the more enjoyable by Olivia's enthusiasm and joy at what she found. My only disappointment was a personal one. I have a gt. gt. grandfather who was born on St Helena. His father went there as an apparently single 18 year old army recruit in 1815 but returned to Ireland in 1836 with a wife and 4 children. A cousin searched East India Company records but couldn't find a marriage record so I was hoping the programme would give some indication of where else we could look for St Helena records.

Olde Crone

10-07-18, 07:14

Thanks Merry, that's more or less what I thought. So not a wedding photo then.

OC

Merry

10-07-18, 08:19

She, in particular, looks too young, if the photo was taken 20 years later.

kiterunner

10-07-18, 08:33

Yes, that's strange. So maybe it's not her at all?

Anstey Nomad

10-07-18, 09:25

The photo certainly looked mid century to me, but what do I know?

I thoroughly enjoyed this programme but, as always, I thought there were loose ends that were glossed over. As the moral tide turned in the nineteenth century and it became less acceptable to consort with the indigenous population, these mixed race children were a nuisance and I don’t think Olivia can assume that ‘India Harriet’ was loved by her English family. If she had grown up with her mother she would probably have spoken very little English and it is more likely that she was immediately shipped off to school, where she would have been bullied for being different, and then married off as soon as was decent.

On a personal note, I would have loved it if they had gone inside the church in Kolkata, as that was where, dare I mention this, Joseph Bodycote was married in 1820.

Merry

10-07-18, 09:28

I'm very surprised the experts who are involved in the production of the programme allowed themselves to think that was the correct date for the photo.

I have a book with a photograph of my 3xg-grandfather in it. He died in 1821 aged 72 and looks about 35 in the photo, so maybe it was taken in the 1780s :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Olde Crone

10-07-18, 10:19

Yes, I did wonder how soon after arriving in England she was packed off to boarding school. Even in those days it seems rather cruel and uncaring to put a four year old on a boat for six months without any kind of escort or caretaker. Sounds more like grim Christian duty than an act of love to me.

OC

kiterunner

10-07-18, 10:26

Although the passenger list said she was 7 years old. Surely she could easily have knocked a few years off her age later in life.

So, even if we agree that the woman in the photo looks Anglo-Indian (I wasn't really sure about that), it seems dubious that it is Harriot. And the fact that no record has been found of William's marriage or Harriot's birth doesn't really prove anything, so we don't really know whether she was mixed race or not. I suppose "India Harriot" in her grandmother's will is a clue, if we know for sure that she was referring to the same person!

Olde Crone

10-07-18, 11:15

But "India Harriot" not "Indian Harriot".

I thought the woman in the photo did look as if she had some Indian blood, but what does that prove? Could she have been Harriot's daughter?

OC

Ann from Sussex

10-07-18, 12:41

Far from being the sweet family nickname Olivia ascribed to "India Harriot", I thought it could be taken - given the views at the time about mixed race children - as a derogatory description. There was no need to have made any reference to India or Indian at all.

kiterunner

10-07-18, 13:28

I've rewatched the bit about Richard Campbell Bazett's two eldest sons being born before the separation from Margaret Ann, but I didn't spot an image of William's baptism record. I did have the sound off though. There was a pile of papers on the table underneath a census page, one of which was a parish register page from Waltham Holy Cross, Essex, but it looked to be post-1813.

I did note down some names from the family tree which they showed:
Olivia's parents are Keith Colman and Mary Anne Leakey, with "Uncle Richard" being Mary Anne's brother. Mary Anne's father was Alexander Graham Leakey 1911-1994, a navy surgeon, son of Alexander Bazett Leakey and Gwladys Elizabeth Thomas. Alexander Bazett Leakey's mother was Mary Bazett born 1841 (daughter of Charles and Harriot.)

kiterunner

10-07-18, 13:43

This is Harriot Elizabeth Slessor's will:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5111/40611_311513-00254/648938?backurl=https%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fqh%3d8lJBiS9PS4smzy7sdT5e3g%253d%2 53d%26db%3dCanturburyPrerogativeCourt%26gss%3dsfs2 8_ms_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB% 3d1%26gsfn%3dhar*t%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dsl*s*r%26 gsln_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

There are several different Harriots mentioned in the will and codicil, and she didn't have it drawn up by a lawyer, so she had to figure out for herself how to distinguish them from each other. This is the wording of the bit of the codicil mentioning India Harriot:

The remaining £1000 I dispose of by leaving £300 to John Walsh brother to William Walsh and £50 to James Walsh for mourning To my Granddaughters Harriot Jane and Sophia Walsh I leave £100 to each and £200 to my Sons children To Charlotte Slessor I bequeath 50 pounds to India Harriot I leave 50 and the remaining 50 must be given to my daughter Louisa de Soza towards paying a Pension in a Convent in Portugal.

I wonder who Charlotte Slessor was?
Edit - it seems that she was the wife of Harriot Elizabeth's son John.

Ann from Sussex

10-07-18, 17:00

I take your point about her not having a lawyer to draw up the will in the normal terminology but I still think India Harriot was a rather derogatory description. The two Harriots didn't even have the same surname so all she had to do was call her Harriot Slessor.

crawfie

10-07-18, 18:08

Interesting to see that Margaret and Francois Dizi married in 1809. They don't seem to have had children either.

bit more info on Dizi

http://archmusicman.blogspot.com/2015/03/bonsall-and-royal-harp-francois-joseph.html

Nell

10-07-18, 18:50

An interesting episode. It was lovely to see Olivia discover she was more exotic than she'd thought but there's nowt wrong with Norfolk ancestry!

kiterunner

10-07-18, 19:00

Tom Tom

10-07-18, 19:00

I really enjoyed this episode, but I also had to do a double take at the "wedding" photograph.

I wonder what Olivia's DNA testing would have shown. I thought that they might have done that. I also thought she would go and find Harriot's grave, but they didn't tell us what happened to her after that census in Reading.

kiterunner

12-07-18, 15:09

Oh wow, I've just seen that Berkshire Archives say that they have found out that Harriot's mother was called Seraphina Donclere who died in 1810 and that they have a copy of her will:

https://www.facebook.com/berkshirerecordoffice/posts/1991269454217038

Apparently there is also a copy of the will on FMP - I'll post a link in a minute if I can find it.

kiterunner

12-07-18, 15:20

Here are some links on FMP.

India Office records:
Seraphina's inventory:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=BL/BIND/L-AG-34-27-44/01254&parentid=BL/BIND/L-AG-34-27/4637
Accounts of her estate:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=BL/BIND/L-AG-34-27-44/01268&parentid=BL/BIND/L-AG-34-27/4639
which says that Harriot was brought up by a Mordaunt Riketts Esqr after the death of Captain Slessor.

Seraphina's will:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=BL/BIND/L-AG-34-29-22/00111&parentid=BL/BIND/L-AG-24-29/WILL/71765
(I'll type out a transcription in a minute)

and an entry in the Index to Death Duty Registers 1884, showing Harriet Bazett as administrator:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=BMD/IR27/447/220&parentid=BMD/D/DDUTY/1824564

kiterunner

12-07-18, 15:41

Kissengunge 8th October 1809
In the name of God Amen
I, Seraphina Donclere, do hereby Make and Declare this to be my last Will & Testament. To wit,
To my beloved Daughter Charlotte Hunter, I bequeath my Diamond Ring and gold Trichindpoly Chain.
To Mrs Bridget Watson at this time residing under the protection of Mordaunt Ricketts Esqr HC(?) Civil Service I leave the Sum of Sicca Rupees four Hundred (Scks 400)
To the Child of which I am now pregnant I leave, if a Boy, the Sum of Sicca Rupees one Thousand (Scks 1000) if a Girl, I desire that the whole of my Property real and personal be equally divided between her and my beloved Daughter Harriet Slessor; with the above mentioned exceptions - In the Event of the Death of either of the above Children, my property to Devolve to the Surviving one -
I hereby nominate and appoint Captn William Slessor, of the Bengal Army, to be my sole executor - Seraphina Donclere.
Signed and Sealed, where no Stampt Paper is to be had, in presence of us -
James Barnes, C A Munro, witnesses.
In the Supreme Court of Judicature at Fort William in Bengal Ecclesiastical Side, In the Goods of Mrs Seraphina Donclere late of Kissengunge Deceased
To the Honourable Sir Henry Russell Knight Chief Justice and his Companions Justices of the said Supreme Court - The Humble Petition of William Blackstone of Calcutta Esquire - Register of the Said Court Humbly Sheweth That Seraphina Donclere abovementioned hath lately departed this life leaving Effects within the Provinces Countries or Districts of Bengal Behar Orissa and Benares or some of them having first made and published her last Will and Testament which is here annexed and thereof appointed Captain William Slessor her Sole Executor -
That the said William Slessor died Shortly after the said Seraphina Donclere without having proved the said Will -
Your Petitioner Therefore humbly prays your Lordships the Next of Kin and Creditors of the Deceased having been duly cited and not appearing or not having made their Claim to the Administration of the said Deceased that Letters ad Colligenda or of Administration with the said Will annexed as to your Lordships shall seem meet of the Estate and Effects of the said Seraphina Donclere Deceased may be granted to your Petitioner -
And your Petitioner shall ever pray - Wm Blackstone Regr.
(Name J A Simpson in the left hand margin next to the above.)

upon reading the annexed Certificate of the Register and William Blackstone having been duly Sworn before me I do order that Letters of Administration with the Copy of the Will annexed of the Estate and Effects of Seraphina Donclere deceased be granted to the said William Blackstone
Dated the 30th day of May 1810
H Russell.

kiterunner

12-07-18, 15:42

A serious case of "did not do the research" on the part of the WDYTYA people!!!

kiterunner

12-07-18, 15:54

While I was looking at India Office stuff on FMP, I saw in the accounts of William Slessor's estate that his mother Harriot Elizabeth Slessor was the administratrix of his estate in Europe, so maybe the money she sent for Harriot jr's travel to England came from that?

Olde Crone

12-07-18, 15:57

Oh, wow! Well found, Kate!

Seraphina Donclere does not sound like a native Indian name to me.

Yes, egg on face for the WDYTYA researchers, definitely.

OC

Olde Crone

12-07-18, 16:21

Makes me wonder how much of an accident William's death really was.

OC

Tilly Mint

12-07-18, 16:22

I noticed that on Rootschat yesterday...........sure makes you think about the kind of research that is carried out by WDYTYA staff......

kiterunner

12-07-18, 17:11

FMP don't seem to have indexed the places of residence on many of the Indian wills, so we can't just look for any Kissengunge ones to see whether any of these people are mentioned in them.

Tilly Mint

12-07-18, 17:44

Do I recall this being mentioned....

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=T91RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA43&lpg=PA43&dq=%22Kissengunge%22+Slessor&source=bl&ots=-ZnZBzazCC&sig=MBx7N_diZvMSipPMT8dTm5XUCh4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi9sLz_jZrcAhXJuxQKHWuBDHAQ6AEIJzAA#v=on epage&q=%22Kissengunge%22%20Slessor&f=false

Lindsay

12-07-18, 17:47

Makes me wonder how much of an accident William's death really was.

OC

Indeed. That struck me during the programme.

Katarzyna

12-07-18, 17:50

I wonder if Seraphina died during childbirth. The baby doesn't appear to have survived either.

Olde Crone

12-07-18, 18:09

kiterunner

12-07-18, 18:44

I did wonder if William had committed suicide but it seems very likely that he did, given the short interval between Seraphina's death and his, too much of a coincidence.

Was Mordaunt Ricketts a friend? I have a similar scenario in my tree where a trusted friend took care of illegitimate children...presumably to spare the family's blushes.

OC

It looks as though Mordaunt Ricketts Esqr was a local bigwig, and he also had at least one illegitimate child, according to the British in India cards on FMP. I haven't figured out whether he was related to Seraphina or William yet.

I went back to the episode and looked at the passenger list which they showed for Harriot's journey to England in 1811 - remember they were saying there was no servant shown as looking after her, so maybe one of the mothers on the voyage was asked to keep an eye on her? Well, it could just be a coincidence, but she is shown as landing at Longreach 20th May, along with three Hunter children (Oswald 5, Jacob 2, and Andrew 1). And there is a servant, Massey Williams, listed as looking after the "Hunters". Could they be related to Seraphina's daughter Charlotte Hunter? There are also some Crommelins listed, and Mordaunt Ricketts married a Crommelin in 1811. So I should think there were some people on board who knew Harriot quite well.

I haven't managed to find that passenger list online yet to view it in full. Nor the records of who paid for passage - would like to see who paid for the Hunter children.

Tilly Mint

12-07-18, 18:46

Mordaunt Ricketts ?

http://www.thepeerage.com/p65218.htm

Olde Crone

12-07-18, 19:00

Is it possible to find Seraphina's marriage? It would be interesting to know her maiden name. Could she have been Portuguese?

OC

kiterunner

12-07-18, 19:19

I've been looking, OC, but no luck so far. Donclere must be a variant of some other name as there are hardly any matches to it anywhere. Of course we don't know for sure that she was married as "Mrs" didn't necessarily mean married in those days.

kiterunner

12-07-18, 19:19

Mordaunt Ricketts ?

http://www.thepeerage.com/p65218.htm

Yes, that's him.

Tilly Mint

12-07-18, 19:48

Is it possible to find Seraphina's marriage? It would be interesting to know her maiden name. Could she have been Portuguese?

OC

There was a lot of Portuguese in India OC and there still is, a lot of our friends out there have Portuguese names. There is an Italian Saint with her name.

ElizabethHerts

12-07-18, 20:16

It's odd that this said Seraphina Donclere died intestate:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=rBtKAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA1069&lpg=PA1069&dq=%22Seraphina+Donclere%22&source=bl&ots=KrGM8Jbtoi&sig=MyLci3vlU0hxMI4NSJWkY3S-Em0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiUx7T2r5rcAhWKVxQKHWhSBQMQ6AEIJzAA#v=on epage&q=%22Seraphina%20Donclere%22&f=false

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=bl%2fbind%2fl-ag-34-29-2%2f00097&parentid=bl%2fbind%2fl-ag-24-29%2fwill%2f7028

Olde Crone

12-07-18, 20:42

Doncler...Du Clerque?

The idea that Seraphina ws a typically submissive Indian woman is fast evaporating in my mind anyway! She made a will and even if William prompted that, it shows a level of education.

What happened to the sister?

What a fascinating story this is turning into!

OC

ElizabethHerts

12-07-18, 20:42

Has anyone found anything about Seraphina's other daughter, Charlotte Hunter?

Olde Crone

12-07-18, 20:49

Oh, durh..... Don is a spanish/ portuguese surname or form of address so she could be Seraphina Don Cler!

Why was the older daughter's surname Hunter, I wonder?

OC

ElizabethHerts

12-07-18, 20:53

Why was the older daughter's surname Hunter, I wonder?

OC

That's really bugging me, OC!

Olde Crone

12-07-18, 20:59

I wonder if she was Seraphina Don Cler who married a Mr Hunter? When he died/ went away, she reverted to her maiden name. Charlotte would therefore be a child of the marriage.

OC

Added to say - Kate's post #40 mentions 3 Hunter children on board with Harriot. Could they be Charlotte's siblings or half siblings if Charlotte was a child of a Don Cler/ Hunter marriage?

OC

Tilly Mint

12-07-18, 21:15

Can't remember when Charlotte was born and just putting this here as her mothers name is HarriEt. ??

http://cumberbatch.one-name.net/getperson.php?personID=I3096&tree=001

maggie_4_7

12-07-18, 21:15

Could she be the Charlotte Slessor mentioned in Harriet Elizabeth's will perhaps she was a lot older and Hunter is her married name!!

No that does not makes sense she would have named her Hunter not Slessor.

ElizabethHerts

12-07-18, 21:23

Can't remember when Charlotte was born and just putting this here as her mothers name is HarriEt. ??

http://cumberbatch.one-name.net/getperson.php?personID=I3096&tree=001

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=BL/BIND/005137009/00273&parentid=BL/BIND/M/36356/1

The marriage for this couple is on FMP as shown above.

Tilly Mint

12-07-18, 21:42

Sorry, Elizabeth, I've not a sub for FMP.

Found this.......

Charlotte Hunter
India Births and Baptisms
Name Charlotte Hunter
Gender Female
Christening Date 28 May 1816
Christening Place Cawnpore, Bengal, India
Father's Name George Hunter
Mother's Name Harriot

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/descendancy/M4Q3-KFV

kiterunner

12-07-18, 22:05

kiterunner

12-07-18, 22:08

The Charlotte Hunter in the will would have to have been born before 1810, and presumably before Harriot though I suppose we aren't certain about that.

crawfie

12-07-18, 22:39

There is a passenger list here - a Mrs Crommelin and a Mrs Hunter were also on board

https://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?query=slessor&coll=ddd&page=1&facets%5Bperiode%5D%5B%5D=1%7C19e_eeuw%7C1810-1819%7C&identifier=ddd%3A010247528%3Ampeg21%3Aa0046&resultsidentifier=ddd%3A010247528%3Ampeg21%3Aa0046

kiterunner

12-07-18, 23:00

Oh, well done Crawfie!

I found baptisms for some of those Hunter children with parents Oswald and Jessie or Janet. And Jacob's middle name was Dickson, so they may be related to Miss Isabella Dickson on that passenger list.

There is a Charlotte Hunter, spinster, Indo Briton, who married John Guest, Wesleyan Missionary, 25 Feb 1835 at Bangalore. I haven't found any more on them yet.

maggie_4_7

13-07-18, 06:44

Jessie and Janet will probably be the same woman, she is probably Scottish, Janet = Jessie in Scotland.

By the way I think Doncler is a Dutch name.

Ann from Sussex

13-07-18, 07:27

Well done everyone! Someone should direct Olivia Colman to this thread.....and the researchers and producers of WDYTYA!

Olde Crone

13-07-18, 07:39

Maggie, yes, Doncler would work as a Dutch name, there was a large Dutch presence.

OC

crawfie

13-07-18, 07:42

I found a small mention on BNA - it seems there was a case in chancery regarding Seraphina's will. It was in a list of cases outstanding from September 1880 that had not been dealt with in the 15 years preceeding that date. Interestingly the case was Hunter v. Andrews - I wonder if it has anything to do with Charlotte Hunter.

The article is in Reynolds Newspaper, Sunday 17 Dec 1882 on page 4 - Notices to correspondents top of column 2.

I haven't been able to find anything else on this chancery case.

ElizabethHerts

13-07-18, 07:47

I was looking on the National Archives website for clues but nothing so far. However, there was another Chancery case involving Harriet Elizabeth Slessor and Louisa Girardot.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9052187

ElizabethHerts

13-07-18, 07:52

Just a note that Louisa Girardot's maiden name was Bristow (which we already knew). This is mentioned in her will.

Another Chancery case:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9584925

crawfie

13-07-18, 07:57

Ooh found something. Charlotte's father was Dunbar James Hunter who died in Ceylon in 1806. His will is on Ancestry and he leaves everything to his daughter Charlotte, and £50 to Charlotte's mother Seraphina Doncler, and names his mother and brother as her guardians

He names William Andrews a Executor. There is then a further paragraph detailing (I think) the reasons for the dispute to Chancery.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5111/40611_311412-00342?pid=40624&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D5111%26h%3D40624%26tid% 3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DIJs3%26_phs tart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=IJs3&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

ElizabethHerts

13-07-18, 07:58

It looks as though Mordaunt Ricketts Esqr was a local bigwig, and he also had at least one illegitimate child, according to the British in India cards on FMP. I haven't figured out whether he was related to Seraphina or William yet.

I went back to the episode and looked at the passenger list which they showed for Harriot's journey to England in 1811 - remember they were saying there was no servant shown as looking after her, so maybe one of the mothers on the voyage was asked to keep an eye on her? Well, it could just be a coincidence, but she is shown as landing at Longreach 20th May, along with three Hunter children (Oswald 5, Jacob 2, and Andrew 1). And there is a servant, Massey Williams, listed as looking after the "Hunters". Could they be related to Seraphina's daughter Charlotte Hunter? There are also some Crommelins listed, and Mordaunt Ricketts married a Crommelin in 1811. So I should think there were some people on board who knew Harriot quite well.

I haven't managed to find that passenger list online yet to view it in full. Nor the records of who paid for passage - would like to see who paid for the Hunter children.

The Crommelins and Girardots were connected:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10403713

ElizabethHerts

13-07-18, 07:59

Tilly Mint

13-07-18, 08:22

kiterunner

13-07-18, 08:30

Brilliant work everyone! Especially Crawfie!

crawfie

13-07-18, 08:30

Great find, Crawfie!

Lt. Col. Dunbar James Hunter

Born Edinburgh 1773; Major in 19th Foot 4 November 1795; brevet Lieutenant-Colonel 1 January 1801; Lieutenant-Colonel 14 February 1804; superseded May 1804; retired June 1804.

He actually died in Sep 1803 according to death notices. Army obviously takes a little time to sort things out!

So Charlotte must have been born sometime before 19 Aug 1803 when he wrote his will,

ElizabethHerts

13-07-18, 08:37

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0001409%2f18040508%2f008

Dunbar James Hunter died in Ceylon. His grandfather was Robert Hunter, Professor of Greek at the University of Edinburgh.

ElizabethHerts

13-07-18, 08:55

The Crommelins in India:

http://www.crommelin.org/history/Biographies/1763CharlesRussel/Index.htm

Olde Crone

13-07-18, 09:28

As an aside:

Isn't it depressing that even presumably professional genealogists assume a scenario and thus never look any further for evidence of anything?

OC

ElizabethHerts

13-07-18, 09:30

OC, I always think it is better when more than one person looks at the evidence. We have seen time and time again on this forum that one person can miss something while another will find the answer.

Olde Crone

13-07-18, 09:35

Elizabeth

Oh yes, I agree, the power of group research is phenomenal. BUT, we are not professionals and perhaps what I really mean is that we all should be wary of accepting the research of just one professional as the gospel!

OC

ElizabethHerts

13-07-18, 09:40

crawfie

13-07-18, 11:42

Will of Elizabeth (Eliza) Goreham, grandmother of Charlotte Hunter, leaving everything, bar a few requests to Charlotte. Written in 1811, proved in 1815.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5111/40611_311087-00480?pid=180318&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D5111%26h%3D180318%26tid %3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DIJs16%26_p hstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=IJs16&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=40611_311087-00480

crawfie

13-07-18, 12:18

maggie_4_7

13-07-18, 13:46

Maggie, yes, Doncler would work as a Dutch name, there was a large Dutch presence.

OC

I only say that because I have foraged about in the records for the Netherlands for personal reasons and seen that name but I think it has died out or changed shape, it is also Germanic and Flemish.

Here are two records that seems to suggest it was a name in the Netherlands:

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=70458&h=2555612&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=utV281&_phstart=successSource

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61290&h=205725&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=utV283&_phstart=successSource

What is the likliehood of the East India company keeping a record of the union of Seraphina between Hunter, or Slessor or Doncler?

I expect Seraphina decided that Scotsmen were not that reliable and I get that :) so the next stop is a 'Dutchman'.

maggie_4_7

13-07-18, 13:50

Brilliant work everyone! Especially Crawfie!

Yes it is well done everyone I have been trying to keep up on my phone, fascinating.

ElizabethHerts

13-07-18, 14:07

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9302854

[C1806 H5]. Short title: Hunter v Andrews. Document type: Bill and answer. Plaintiffs:...

Reference: C 13/623/29
Description:
[C1806 H5].

Short title: Hunter v Andrews.

Document type: Bill and answer.

Plaintiffs: Charlotte Hunter, infant (by Elizabeth Goreham her next friend) and said Elizabeth Goreham.

Defendants: William Andrews.

Subject: estate of Lt Colonel Dunbar James Hunter of 19th Regiment of Foot, property in Ceylon, East India.

JFP

Note: The naming of a party does not imply that he or she will appear in all the documents in this cause (after the bill)
Date: 1806
Held by: The National Archives, Kew

Yet more litigation!

Tilly Mint

13-07-18, 14:44

Seen this on a wiki tree.....

Charles Barker Crommelin was born on 13 December 1790 at Kolkata, Bengal, India. He was the son of Charles Russell Crommelin and Julia Barker. He married Emilia Ellen Ricketts, daughter of George Poyntz Ricketts and Sophia Sarah Jane Pierce, on 27 April 1818. He died on 26 February 1827 at age 36 at Goruckpore, Bengal, India

Tilly Mint

13-07-18, 14:50

I agree, OC. Professionals don't always look in the right place.

I suspect that people who use professional researchers then think that it's all done and dusted, whereas with my own research I don't ever stop as I have found more and more over the years. I revisit my lines regularly.

I only used one twice (Kevin Asplin) was one and he was excellent and the other after all the info was given.......got records for a man of the same name but no other similarities......never again Lol.

kiterunner

13-07-18, 22:41

Could this be Charlotte's marriage -

Oxford Journal 6 Sept 1823.

At Clapham, Richard Bevan Esq. youngest son of S. Bevan Esq. of Fosbury, Wilts to Charlotte, daughter of the late Lieut.Col Hunter of the 19th Reg.

If so, then there is this tree on Ancestry, that seems to be for her:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/35950954/person/29353610813/facts

She died in Brighton in 1835 at age 34.

The marriage record:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31280_199078-00206/4252969?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/35950954/person/29353310205/facts/citation/152673490662/edit/record
The first witness named is Grant Allan, one of the executors of Eliza Goreham's will. And another witness is A Gordon, presumably Alexander Gordon, the other executor. So safe to say it's the right Charlotte!

Blaquiere Talbot

03-05-22, 02:52

Seraphina Donclere is my 3rd great grandmother. Her husband was Lt-Col Dunbar Hunter 19th Regiment of Foot (Green Howards). He was born 6 February 1773 • Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland. He died on the 4 September 1803 • Trincomalee, Trincomalee District, Eastern, Sri Lanka. Seraphina died in 1810. Their only daughter was Charlotte Hunter born 1801 and after her mother died she was sent to her grandmother in England. She married my 2nd Great-grandfather Richard Bevan 30 Aug 1823 • Clapham, Surrey, , England. She died at Brighton in 1835. Details can be found on my family tree "Talbot of Stone Castle" on Ancestry.com
Richard Talbot
Vancouver Island

Blaquiere Talbot

03-05-22, 20:18

Seraphina Donclere was my 3rd great grandmother. She married Lt-Col Dunbar Hunter 19th Foot (Green Howards). He died in 1803. They had one child Charlotte Hunter who was sent back to England after her mother died in 1810. Charlotte married my 2nd great grandfather Richard Bevan in 1823. Further details on my tree "Talbot of Stone Castle".

My father's family were in India for 150 years and now I find also some of my mother's! Seraphina Donclere was my 3rd great grandmother. She married Lt-Col Dunbar Hunter (1773-1803) 19th Regiment of Foot (Green Howards). He died in Ceylon in 1803. Seraphina died in 1810 in Kishanganj (child birth?). They had one child Charlotte Hunter who was returned to UK to her grandmother Hunter and later married my 2nd great-grandfather Richard Bevan.

After Dunbar's death in Ceylon in 1803 Seraphina married Lt-Col William Slessor (1778-1810). Seraphina died in 1810 in Kishanganj (child birth?) and William shot himself (accident? Maybe not?) also in Kishanganj in 1810. They also had one child Harriett Slessor. Again she was sent to UK to her grandmother Slessor.

Details on my family tree "Talbot of Stone Castle" on Ancestry. Also the Bevan's family tree. Remaining mysteries:
1: Where was Seraphina born and when? Since Dunbar died in Ceylon she must have lived there too but she may have come from anywhere?
2: So was Charlotte born in Ceylon?
3: Why would the London Gazette list Seraphina as "intestate" when she left a detailed will and list of belongings? Also why would they refer to her as Mrs Seraphina Donclere when she was either Mrs Hunter or Mrs Slessor?
4: Was there another Seraphina Donclere. Perhaps her mother? She would have been Mrs Donclere.

Any help much appreciated!

The mystery deepens! Spinster???!!!

Administration with will annexed of Seraphina Donclere of Kissengunge, Bengal, India, spinster.

Harriet Bazett, nee Slessor, was the administratrix and one of the residuary legatees, and daughter of the testatrix. The will was dated 1809, and bequeathed items to Seraphina's illegitimate children and to a friend who was the mistress of an Indian Civil Service official. The administration was extracted from the records by Pitman & Sons of London, solicitors.)

Col (Ret'd) Richard Talbot
Vancouver Island
[email protected]

kiterunner

04-05-22, 21:48

It's a long time since we watched this episode, so I will have to reread the thread to refresh my memory! May take a while since there are nine pages. Before I start on that, just wondering - is there evidence that Seraphina was legally married to Dunbar Hunter and then to William Slessor? If not then that could be why she was Seraphina Donclere, spinster.

kiterunner

04-05-22, 22:26

Okay, having read back through the thread, and looked at the wills etc. I don't have an answer to 1 or 2, but to numbers 3 and 4 - Mrs didn't specifically mean a married woman or widow in those days, it just meant a woman of relatively high social status. So Mrs Donclere, spinster, does make sense in that context. Since she is called Seraphina Donclere in both her own will and Dunbar Hunter's will, and her will mentions William Slessor but does not call him her husband, and Dunbar Hunter's will mentions Seraphina but does not call her his wife, it seems pretty clear that she was not legally married to either of them and that is why it says "spinster".

The heading "Intestates" seems to be used as a general term for those deceased people whose estates were granted administration rather than probate. The grant for Seraphina's estate was administration with the will attached, because the person whom she named executor had died and so could not apply for probate.

Blaquiere Talbot

09-05-22, 20:09

Many thanks KiteRunner (shades of Kabul?). I have now reviwed all the other comments and added them to my tree. Oh Dear! Seraphina is indeed a mystery woman. Two and possibly three (Donclere) "husbands". Very modern! I have been doing my family for 50 years but have never come across an unique surname! I agree Donclere must be an anglicised version of a Portuguese or maybe mixed race name? Somewhere I read Seraphina supported her sister in a Portuguese convent but I can't find it again. Also complicating it is that her 2nd husnand? William Slessor was also born in Portugal (his father was a British General and Governor of Opporto). So somewhere Harriett says she is supporting a niece in Portugal (again I can't find it!). Does anyone have legible transcript of Hunter's will and the Chancery dispute? Ditto Elizabet Goreham? Yes Charlotte married very well. Richard Bevan was a banker whose grandfather co-founded Barclay's Bank! There is a portrait of him on-line also his father "Silvanus Bevan of Riddlesworth Hall 1790". As for Charlotte's father he was HM 19th Foot who were in Ceylon for a long time "In April 1801 the regiment was deployed to Ceylon for service in the Kandyan Wars.[13] The regiment lost six officers and 172 other ranks in a massacre there in June 1803 and then remained on the island to enforce British rule.[16] The regiment did not return to England until May 1820." So Charlotte must have been born in Ceylon. However Seraphina could have come from anywhere in or enroute to Ceylon. Goa? Monty Python would pronounce that "goer!".

Blaquiere Talbot

09-05-22, 20:24

Emigration
1818 • Calcutta to UK
Departure Nov 1818 Name of Ship "James Sibbald" Captain Forbes. Miss Charlotte Hunter. Child Passenger Origin Calcutta. Destination Europe.

kiterunner

09-05-22, 21:47

kiterunner

09-05-22, 21:56

This is a transcription of Dunbar Hunter's will:

In the Name of God Amen I Dunbar James Hunter do Will and bequeath the property I am now possessed or may hereafter inherit in the following manner viz I appoint my beloved Daughter Charlotte Hunter my Sole and entire heir to all propertys whatsoever I do will and bequeath to Madame Seriphina Donclere her Mother the Sum of Fifty pounds Sterling Money per annum for her natural life and at her Death to return to my heirs and one hundred pounds Sterling to pay her passage from this Country In the event of the Death of my beloved Daughter before she is married or attain twenty one years of age I do make my beloved Mother Mrs Elizabeth Goreham and Dear Brother Robert Hunter joint heirs and Guardians to my beloved Daughter I do appoint William Andrews Esqr Executor in this Country I do make this my last Will and Testament this 19th day of August 1803 at Trincomalia in the Island of Ceylong Signed D J Hunter Major 19th Regt of Foot & Lt Coll. Witnesses J. Crookes, J. W. Ottley

I might have a go at some of the other things that you asked about tomorrow.

kiterunner

10-05-22, 14:47

The first part that appears after Dunbar Hunter's will:

Septr 15th 1806

Appeared Personally Elizabeth Goreham of King Street Portman Square in the County of Middlesex Widow and Alexander Gordon of Old Broad Street Attorney at Law and made Oath as follows (that is to say) First the said Elizabeth Goreham for herself saith that she is the Mother of Dunbar James Hunter late of the Island of Ceylon and Major of His Majestys 19 Regiment of Foot and a Lieutenant Colonel in the Army Esqr deceased that the said deceased having duly made his Will at Ceylon he therein named William Andrews Esquire Executor in that Country and who as this Deponent believes only proved the said Will in the proper Court at Ceylon where the original Will now remains that shortly after the death of the said deceased the said William Andrews transmitted to England a Copy of the said Will of the said deceased certified to be a true Copy by the said William Andrews and by Ricfhard Young and D Mardenaes (?) Lieutenants in the said 19th Regiment of Foot and which Copy is now hereunto annexed and the Deponent believes the same to be a true and faithful copy of the said Last Will and Testament of the said Deceased and she furthre deposes that she verily and in her Consciences believes there is not now in England any other or more authentic Copy of the said Will of the said deceased than the aforesaid Copy hereunto annexed save and Except that she believes there is in the possession of the aforesaid William Andrews who now resides in England a Copy of the said Will annexed to the Probate thereof by him obtained at Ceylon at aforesaid and this Deponent Lastly saith that she believes it will be for the benefit of the Estate of the said Deceased that Letters of administrations with the aforesaid Copy of the said Will annexed of the Goods of the said Deceased should now be granted under the Seal of the Prerogative Court of Canterbury without(?) writing(?) the arrival of an authentic Copy of the said Will from Ceylon aforesaid And the said Alexander Gordon for himself saith that as Solicitor for the said Elizabeth Goreham he hath applied to John Peale of Hatton Garden London the Solicitor for the same Williams Andrews requesting to have the aforesaid Probate and Copy of the said Will delivered over to him but he hath not been able to obtain the same Eliza: Goreham Alexr Gordon The same day the said Elizabeth Goreham and Alexander Gordon were duly sworn to the truth of this affidavit Before me C Coote Surr.

kiterunner

10-05-22, 14:59

And the other bit after Dunbar Hunter's will:

On the Seventeenth Day of September in the year of Our Lord One thousand Eight hundred and Six Administration with the Copy of the Will annexed of the Goods Chattels and Credits of Dunbar James Hunter late of the Island of Ceylon and Major of his Majestys 19th Regt of Foot and Lieutenant Colonel in the Army Esqr deceased was granted to Elizabeth Goreham Widow the ?????? Guardian appointed by the High Court of Chancery to Charlotte Hunter Spinster a Minor the Residuary Legatee named in the said Will save and except his Goods Chattles and Credits lying and being in the Island of Ceylon aforesaid and limited until the original Will or a more authentic Copy thereof should be brought into and left in the Registry of the Prerogative Court of Canterbury but no further or otherwise in the use and benefit of the said Minor until she shall attain her age of twenty one years or until the Further Order of the said High Court of Chancery she having been first sworn duly to admr No Executor but William Andrews for the Island of Ceylon.

kiterunner

10-05-22, 15:14

And this is my transcription of Elizabeth Goreham's will and probate info:

In the Name of God Amen I Eliza Goreham being in poor health I do hereby make my last Will and Testament and as it hath pleased Almighty God to take from me my two dear and valuable Sons Robt and Dunbar Js Hunter I therefore will and appoint the Infant Daughter Charlotte Hunter of my beloved son Dunbar Js Hunter to be my sole Heir to all property I die possessed of only burthened with the after named Legacies as a trifling mark of my esteem and respect for them I will and name Grant Allan and Alexander Gordon Esquires both of the City of London to be my Executors and Trustees to the above named Charlotte Hunter till she is of Age twenty one years old to each of these Gentlemen I leave twenty Guineas and to my much esteemed Sister in Law the true and faithful wife of my dear and valuable Brother Alexander Maclellan to her I leave thirty Guineas as a small mark for her great kindness to me and to my Son in Law George John Goreham I leave to him the sum of one hundred pounds and to my Nephew George Maclellan to him I leave thirty Guineas but should the above named Charlotte Hunter die before she is Married or at the age of twenty one years old I then name my Daughter in Law Mrs McIlraith formerly Miss Goreham the oldest daughter of General Goreham George John Goreham and my Nephew George Maclellan as joint Heirs to all property I die possessed of Failing the within named Charlotte Hunter that is to say If she dies before she is Married or at the age of twenty one years old this I leave as my last Will and Testament So help me God. I further leave to my Cousin Mrs Ann Heron the Sum of twenty Guineas Eliza Goreham Brompton Row May 30 1811 Witness Geo Jenner. See Affidt after Act.

Proved at London 11th May 1815 before the Worshipful John Daubeny Doctor of Laws and Surrogate by the Oaths of Grant Allan Esquire and Alexander Gordon Esquire the Executors to whom Administration was granted having been first sworn duly to Administer.

6th May 1815
Appeared Personally Alexander Munro of Great St Helens London Gentleman and made Oath that he knew and was well acquainted with Eliza Goreham late of Brompton Row in the County of Middlesex Widow deceased for several years before and to the time of her death and hath several times seen her write and write and subscribe her name to writings whereby he hath acquired a knowledge of her manner and Character of handwriting and subscription and having now viewed and perused the paper writing hereunto annexed purporting to be and contain the last Will and Testament of the said deceased the said Will beginning thus "In the name of God Amen" ending thus "the sum of twenty Guineas" and thus subscribed "Eliza Goreham" and bearing date the thirtieth day of May 1811 this appearer saith that he verily and in his Conscience believes the whole body series and contents with the interlineation "Charlotte Hunter" between the fourth and fifth lines of the first page of the said Will and also the names "Eliza Goreham" set and subscribed thereto to be of the proper handwriting and subscription of the said Eliza Goreham deceased Alexr Munro same day the said Alexander Munro was duly sworn to the truth hereof before me John Daubeny Junr.

Blaquiere Talbot

10-05-22, 18:36

Wow! This is simply amazing! How on earth do you read that appalling writing? So I think we can assume "Madam Serephina Donclere" was probably a Portuguese and possibly Dutch mix "The Portuguese Burghers are largely descendants of the Sri Lanka Mestiços, the people of mixed Portuguese and Sri Lankan descent (commonly of a Portuguese father and a Sri Lankan mother) who appeared in the 16th century, after the Portuguese explorers found the sea route to the Indian Ocean. When the Dutch took over coastal Sri Lanka (formerly Ceylon), the descendants of the Portuguese took refuge in the central hills of Kandyan Kingdom under Sinhalese rule. In time, the Dutch and Portuguese descendants intermarried. In today's Sri Lanka, the Creole is limited to the spoken form. Most of the speakers are the Burghers in the Eastern province (Batticaloa and Trincomalee)". Also this "The arrival of the Portuguese on Sri Lanka’s (Ceylon) shores in 1505 had a profound impact on local society and the Sinhalese. For one thing, the Portuguese title of Dom, originally applied to nobles and churchmen. Caught on by undergoing a slight change to Don to precede the proper names of local men. J.W. Bennett noted in his work, Ceylon and its Capabilities (1843), how the Sinhalese of his day still aspired for Portuguese names and titles. Adopting names such as Don Louis and Don Christoffel. “German Barons” he says, “are scarcely less plentiful than Ceylon Doms and Dons, and the latter appendage is just as easily assumed as the former title”.
I have also traced "Mrs Bridget Watson". Another mystery! She was born "Maria Elizabeth Crommelin" but christened "Bridget Watson"! She eventually married Mordaunt Ricketts! What the connection with Seraphina was I don't know - yet! I love mysteries! We have a Sinhalese friend who is a professor of linguistics so I will ask her about Donclere.

Janet

11-05-22, 17:51

Could it have been Don Clere, then?

Blaquiere Talbot

12-05-22, 19:46

I have to await responses from my Ceylon gurus!
Richard

Blaquiere Talbot

15-05-22, 18:59

Re Donclere: Initial response from one of my Singhalese gurus: "Hemi:
Thanks for your email. I have started inquiries as this copy of mail shows. The name not sounding Portuguese is not necessarily important because much of the Ceylon burgher community also came from the De Meuron regiment which was a mercenary force employed by the Dutch and had every European ethnicity in it. They were disbanded in 1796 when the Dutch surrendered, and most of them settled down as "burghers" in Ceylon. Will let you know of my search as it progresses.
Ernest

Blaquiere Talbot

15-05-22, 19:29

Re: My previous post: "I have also traced "Mrs Bridget Watson". Another mystery! She was born "Maria Elizabeth Crommelin" but christened "Bridget Watson"! She eventually married Mordaunt Ricketts! What the connection with Seraphina was I don't know - yet! I have now done some further research and the above source was incorrect. "Bridget Watson" and "Maria Elizabeth Crommelin" were two different people. In Seraphina's will dated 1810 she says: "To Mrs Bridget Watson at this time residing under the protection of Mordaunt Ricketts Esqr HC(?) Civil Service I leave the Sum of Sicca Rupees four Hundred (Scks 400)". So Bridget was probably a friend of Seraphina's and also probably an "Anglo-Indian" (in new speak). Mordaunt married the next year (1811) to "Maria Elizabeth Crommelin". The search for Bridget continues because her two daughters may have gone there after her death before being sent back to UK.

Blaquiere Talbot

16-05-22, 02:54

I have now found an 1810 memorandum to Seraphina's will leaving funds to Mordaunt Ricketts for Bridget Watson for the support of her 2nd daughter Harriot Slessor. But where is her eldest daughter Charlotte Hunter?

Blaquiere Talbot

16-05-22, 20:57

Found her! 1809 • Ceylon to UK
ADDITIONAL LIST OF PASS NO FEES ON THE HOMEWARD. To Europe. —Mrs. Tlays.—Misses Charlotte Hunter, and Kliza Stewart, and Master John Stewart. (see Gallery)

Blaquiere Talbot

18-05-22, 20:00

I found the above on-line in The Calcutta Gazette July/October 1809. However the scanning is a mess. Does anyone have a true copy? I'd like to know the date, the departure port and the ship.
Richard

Merry

19-05-22, 07:39

I found the above on-line

Do you mean in the British Newspaper Archive online indexes?

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/

If you haven't registered with the site before, they initially allow access to 3 pages free of charge.

However, I am unsure as to why you have a date span of July/Oct 1809 as I would have thought you would have the date of the particular edition of the Calcutta Gazette if your information had come from the BNA.

I did try and find the published date, but (as you said) the OCR recognition seems particularly bad for 1809 and I couldn't locate any of those names or partial names or other words etc to lead me to the correct article. I imagine "PASS NO FEES" should read passengers, but that didn't help me!

ElizabethHerts

19-05-22, 08:00

I found this on FMP:

Madras Courier 20 September 1809

To Europe. - Mrs Hayes, - Misses Charlotte Hunter, and Eliza Stewart, and Master John Stewart.

Merry

19-05-22, 08:13

I found this on FMP:

Madras Courier 20 September 1809

To Europe. - Mrs Hayes, - Misses Charlotte Hunter, and Eliza Stewart, and Master John Stewart.

lol I was so focused on looking in the 'correct' paper, I didn't look in any others!!

So it might be: Freighted Ship Warren Hastings, Capt. C. P. Macfarlane

or Frei:hted,Ship Povne, Capt. J. Nichol

depending on how the lists are constructed. I would think the first is the more likely.

Merry

19-05-22, 08:21

The Hampshire Chronicle 19 March 1810 states that the ship Warren Hastings sailed from Madras 13 Oct and arrived at the Cape of Good Hope 24/5 Dec.

With more time there's a good chance of tracking these ship movements via the British papers (FMP).

ElizabethHerts

19-05-22, 08:22

Merry, it was "Freighted Ship Warren Hastings".

Merry

19-05-22, 08:31

OK thanks Eizabeth, that's what I imagined.

From the Wikipedia page for the Warren Hastings:

Captain C. P. MacFarlane sailed Warren Hastings back to England from Calcutta as an "extra ship", i.e., under charter. She left Calcutta on 11 September 1809, reached Madras on 24 September, and the Cape on 16 December. She was at St Helena on 27 January 1810 and arrived at Portsmouth on 8 April and Blackwall on 24 April.

Merry

19-05-22, 08:36

I really shouldn't attempt several things at once - I didn't take in the fact that the Madras Courier is on FMP and that you said that in your post, Elizabeth!!

*sigh*... time to go to Tesco.....

Blaquiere Talbot

19-05-22, 20:32

Many thanks to all. Now I need to find out what the date and departure port in 1809 was for "Mrs Hayes, - Misses Charlotte Hunter, and Eliza Stewart, and Master John Stewart". What is sad is that Charlotte was being (or had already been) removed from her mother Seraphina who was with her new lover - Slessor!

Merry

20-05-22, 07:50

Now I need to find out what the date and departure port in 1809 was

Assuming the ship travelled from Calcutta to Madras, then to Ceylon and then to the Cape of Good Hope, in previous posts we have the newspaper of the time stating the WH sailed from Madras on 13 Oct reaching the Cape about Christmas Day and the Wikipedia page saying she arrived at Madras 24 Sept (no leaving date) and reached the Cape 16 Dec. So they can't both be right!

The Wki page got their information from here:

https://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/dlDisplay.do?docId=IAMS040-001104827&vid=IAMS_VU2&indx=1&dym=false&dscnt=1&onCampus=false&group=ALL&institution=BL&ct=search&vl(freeText0)=040-001104827&submit=search

I would have expected that to be more accurate than what was published in Britsh Newspapers at the time, but without seeing the document it's impossible to know how easy it was to follow accurately.

In post #103 you quoted the newspaper as stating, "1809 • Ceylon to UK" but there is no mention of Ceylon in the Madras Courier 20 Sept 1809. I wondered if they actually travelled from Madras?

Merry

20-05-22, 09:15

This page is very interesting :

http://www.heicshipslogs.co.uk/logs/h009.htm

Note there were five HEICS ships named Warren Hasting and some were sailing at the same time, so if you want to learn more about the ship your people sailed on, you will need to be clear about which one she was!

This page:

http://www.heicshipslogs.co.uk/encounter.htm#wooo

has further info about WH 2 and 3.

Blaquiere Talbot

26-05-22, 19:52

Many thanks to you all! The remaining question is where did Charlotte go between her father's death in 1806 and her emigration to UK in 1809? If Seraphina was a Portuguese Catholic she was probably estranged from her Donclere family so doubtful she was with them. Possibly taken in by a family in the 19th Regiment? Or she may have gone with Seraphina to Calcutta and been taken in by Mrs Bridget Watson (mentioned in Seraphina's will as "at this time residing under the protection of Mordaunt Ricketts Esqr HC) when Seraphina moved with Slessor to Kishanganj. Charlotte's departure port might help?

Blaquiere Talbot

28-05-22, 02:42

My best guess is that Charlotte was four when her father died so I think Seraphina took her with her to Calcutta but, when she met Slessor and moved to Kishanganj, she left her in Calcutta with perhaps Mordaunt Ricketts and Bridget Watson to wait until she was seven so she could take a free passage under the supervision of Mrs Hayes (probably a destitute widow returning to UK) and the two Stewart children (probably orphans). Army regulations don't change very fast and I too remember being sent, aged seven, in a troopship from UK to New Zealand. It was full of returning soldiers, POWs, destitute immigrants and refugee camp survivors. My mother and younger siblings were in a cabin but, as I was just seven, I had to sleep in a bunk bed in the mens' dormitory in the bilges with the other men and boys seven or more. I loved it! Naturally, given where many of the passengers came from, we had lots of sickness on board and were in quarantine the whole trip. Me and my buddies liked the burials at sea the best!

Blaquiere Talbot

29-05-22, 19:34

Still confusion over Dunbar Hunter's death date. Find a Grave says 1803 but his records continue until 1806!

Merry

29-05-22, 19:52

Still confusion over Dunbar Hunter's death date. Find a Grave says 1803 but his records continue until 1806!

I saw the 1803 date here:

https://ia600900.us.archive.org/32/items/cu31924007648516/cu31924007648516.pdf

(page 414)

but it seems they were only compiling this record from looking at a (possibly) worn gravestone! Which records continued?

Merry

29-05-22, 20:19

Oh, it did say underneath the grave details:

He was gazetted Lieutenant-Colonel " by purchase," February 9, 1804, after his death.

Merry

30-05-22, 07:51

Here is a contemporary report of his death (from FMP newspaper images):

Salisbury and Winchester Journal 07 May 1804

In September last, at Trincomalee, in the island of Ceylon, Lieut. Col. Dunbar James Hunter, of the 19th regiment of foot.

The same snippet appears in:

04 May 1804 - Star (London) - London, London, England

Oracle and the Daily Advertiser 02 May 1804

General Evening Post 03 May 1804

Those last two have the additional info: "grandson to the late Robert Hunter, Professor of Greek in the University of Edinburgh."

Whilst looking, I also saw:

03 March 1823 - Star (London) - London, London, England

Feb. 8, at Edinburgh, Miss Hunter, daughter of the late R. Hunter Esq., Professor of Greek in the University of Edinburgh.

Her burial record is on ScotlandsPeople:

HUNTER JEAN, parent/other details ROBERT HUNTER, aged 85, F, buried 17/02/1823, Parish No. 685/1 Ref 990 371, Parish Edinburgh

Also:

The Scots Magazine 03 May 1779

27 (May) At Edinburgh, in an advanced age, Mr Robert Hunter, professor of Greek in the university of Edinburgh.

Clearly there is something amiss with the date of that last entry. There was no date of publication on the image. The previous page just showed May 1779 and had entries for 31 May included. Page 1 of the publication shows May 1779, so I can't imagine where FMP got their date from? Perhaps the magazine was printed 3 June?

Anyway, ScotlandsPeople has this burial:

HUNTER ROBERT, aged 77, M buried 29/05/1779, Parish No. 685/1, Ref 970 205, Parish Edinburgh

FindaGrave has the burial place as Greyfriars Kirkyard.

Robert seems to have been appointed in 1741:

The Scots Magazine 06 November 1741

Preferments

Mr Robert Hunter, Professor of Greek in the University of Edinburgh.

and:

Caledonian Mercury 10 December 1741

EDINBURGH, Dec. 10

Yesterday Mr Robert Hunter was elected Professor of Greek in the University of Edinburgh.

Blaquiere Talbot

30-05-22, 19:37

Many thanks Merry. Lots of homework to do. Dunbar's brother Robert was Lt-Col commanding Scots Guards and died at his mother's house in Portman Square 13 April 1804. Dunbar's death had just reached England the week before so she lost both sons within a week! No wonder she demanded Charlotte be sent to her! Incidentally, that confirms the 1803 death date so correct then Charlotte would have been one when her father died so that reinforces my theory that Seraphina headed to Calcutta with her to start a new life. What a tragic life she had. Pity she never knew both daughters did so well!

Merry

30-05-22, 20:13

Is that right that all you have for Dunbar's father is:

William Hunter ? –1786
BIRTH Hexham, Northumberland, England
DEATH 1786

What are your sources for his birth and death?

(EDIT: I'm guessing the death date just means 'before his widow remarried'?!)

Merry

30-05-22, 20:54

Oh - but is this Dunbar's birth record (ScotlandsPeople)? His father has been transcribed as Charles, but the mother, Elizabeth McLellan, is the name you have:

HUNTER, DUNBAR JAMES
Father: CHARLES HUNTER
Mother: ELIZABETH MCLELLAN
born/baptised 06/02/1773
Parish No: 685/1
Ref: 340 160
Parish: Edinburgh

Additional info from FMP transcription, above date is his birth date, bap 28 Feb 1773, father's occ Merchant, residence College Kirk. The FMP entry has surname Charles rather than Hunter on their transcription, no middle name and first name Duncan not Dunbar, but the dob, father's forename and mother's full name are all the same as above, so it would definitely be worth viewing the image on SP to see exacty what was written.

and this would be his brother you mentioned in your last post:

HUNTER, ROBERT
Father: CHARLES HUNTER
Mother: ELISABETH MCLELLAN
born/baptised 02/08/1771
Parish No: 685/1
Ref: 330 381.
Parish: Edinburgh

Additional info from FMP transcription, above date is his birth date, bap 29 Aug 1771, father's occ Merchant, residence Old Kirk

there's also:

HUNTER, CHARLES
Father: CHARLES HUNTER
Mother: ELISABETH MCLELLAN
born/baptised: 19/07/1769
Parish No: 685/1
Ref: 330 124
Parish: Edinburgh

Additional info from FMP transcription, above date is his birth date, bap 31 Jul 1769, father's occ Merchant, residence Edinburgh.

Merry

31-05-22, 09:28

For the next gen back there are these children for Robert Hunter and his wife Elizabeth Inglis. These index entries are from SP but the transcripts of the records on FMP show Robert's occupation as teacher on all but the first entry (John), where no occ is recorded:

HUNTER JOHN - ROBERT HUNTER/ELIZABETH INGLIS FR5301 (FR5301) M 11/06/1734 685/1 190 433 Edinburgh

HUNTER ANNE GORDON - ROBERT HUNTER/ELISABETH INGLIS FR5436 (FR5436) F 08/08/1735 685/1 200 130 Edinburgh

HUNTER JANE - ROBERT HUNTER/ELISABETH INGLIS FR5590 (FR5590) F 10/11/1736 685/1 200 431 Edinburgh

HUNTER ROBERT - ROBERT HUNTER/ELISABETH INGLES FR5772 (FR5772) M 13/01/1738 685/1 210 292 Edinburgh

HUNTER ALEXANDER - ROBERT HUNTER/ELISABETH INGLIS FR5995 (FR5995) M 18/09/1739 685/1 220 121 Edinburgh

HUNTER CHARLES - ROBERT HUNTER/ELIZABETH INGLIS FR6118 (FR6118) M 15/12/1740 685/1 220 368 Edinburgh

Jane is presumably Jean who died in 1823 (my earlier post).

Here's the marriage of Robert and Elizabeth:

HUNTER ROBERT ELIZABETH INGLIS/FR1655 (FR1655) 10/06/1733 685/1 470 97 Edinburgh

The announcement of Robert's appointment as Professor of Greek at the University is in this paper (FMP):

10 December 1741 - Caledonian Mercury - Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland

Yesterday I saw the entry for when his name was put forward for the post at the university (earlier in 1741 I believe) and that stated he was a teacher in a private school at that date. Of course I can't find it now when I am under pressure to get some other jobs done! I will have to leave it at that for now....!

EDIT: I forgot I hadn't posted the transcription for the burial of Robert H's wife (FMP):

Title Mrs
County Midlothian
First name(s) Elizabeth
Last name Inglis
Page 308
Archive reference OPR 685_1/97
Year Range 1771-1785
Burial year 1783
Item 6
Burial date ? Sep 1783
Record set Scotland, Parish Deaths & Burials 1564-2017
Next of kin relationship Relict of
Next of kin name Robt Hunter
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Burials
Place Edinburgh
Collections from Great Britain, Scotland

My apologies if you have all this already! I've only been looking at the Talbot of Stone Castle tree on Ancestry.

Blaquiere Talbot

31-05-22, 19:13

Again many thanks Merry. Amazing! This will take a while to digest!
Richard

Merry

01-06-22, 22:18

I keep seeing information about Burella Hunter, wife of Arthur Campbell who she married in 1779. Burella died 03 Jul 1822 at Auchmannoch (reported The Scots Magazine 01 August 1822). Unfortunately, I can't find a burial record for her to pick up her age and the FMP transcription of the memorial inscription for Arthur and Burella doesn't help either:

Mauchline Churchyard, Mauchline, Ayrshire

Inscription Sacred to the memory of Arthur Campbell, Esq. of Auchmannoch d. 11.3.1*48 aged 91 and Mrs Burella Hen**** his wife her d. *** and affectionately by their **** Robert Campbell ****

Some Ancestry trees and lots of webpages say she is the dau of Robert Hunter the professor, but also that she was a lot younger (b 1858??) than his other children and that her mother was Mary Hannay, but we know Robert was married to Elizabeth Inglis and she outlived him. Of course she could still be his child, but it's perhaps unlikely.

I did wonder if Burella was a granddaughter of Robert rather than daughter, as, if she was born in or about 1858, that could be a possibility. Presumably she would have to be the daughter of John or Alexander as Charles' children were mentioned by their mother in her will in 1815 when this Burella was still alive.

I have not been able to prove the wife of Arthur Campbell is a relation of your Robert Hunter, but in looking, I came across another Burella Hunter who died in London in 1857 aged 82 (so born about 1775, so possibly about 17 years younger than the other Burella). This younger woman is recorded on the London 1851 census at 18 Grove Terrace Camberwell. In 1851 she is shown as a 74 year old unmarried woman, born in the City of London, in the house of her cousin, Ann Pattison a 45 year-old widow. There is a will for this Burella Hunter which I read quickly, but at the time I read it I didn't know whether she was anything to do with you, so didn't make any notes, but it did mention a whole lot of relatives, so that will keep you busy!

I later found this (FMP):

Kilmarnock Weekly Post and County of Ayr Reporter 07 November 1857

At Montpelier Villa, near London, on the 24th ult., aged 82 years, Burella Hunter, daughter of Alex. Hunter Esq., M.D., and granddaughter of the late Robert Hunter Esq. of Pisgah, Ayrshire, and Bridge Castle, Professor of Greek at the University of Edinburgh.

So, from this we know Alexander Hunter b 1739, son of Robert, became a doctor and probably came to London if his daughter was born there.

I've not found a baptism for Alexander's daughter as yet , nor a marriage or death for Alexander, but might have another look tomorrow!

Blaquiere Talbot

02-06-22, 02:49

Many thanks Merry. Again amazing! Much to digest. May I ask you to help on another mystery which goes far beyond me? Captain Thomas Ajax Anderson was another 3rd great-grandfather. He was also in the 19th Regiment of Foot in Ceylon. Lt-Col Dunbar Hunter was his CO. He is very well known as a poet. His first wife was Julia ? but no one has ever found her surname. They had two daughters. Emma Anderson was born in Ceylon in 1804 and Julia Anderson was born in Lahore in 1807. Julia married my 2nd great-grandfather Henry Christian Talbot at St John’s Calcutta in 1825. Why can no one find Julia Sr’s surname? Again the 1804 Ceylon date brings up memories of Seraphina? Was Julia also a “burgher”?

Merry

02-06-22, 07:19

I read this summary of his life,

https://jnvlieland.blogspot.com/2013/09/thomas-ajax-anderson.html

which I noticed doesn't even mention his second marriage. I see Ancestry has a record of the second wedding, possibly because Sarah Hollowell applied for a pension and so someone (in 1824) checked the records to be sure they were married. None of the datasets I've looked at for Ceylon go back as far as 1800-1804 when the marriage to Julia should have taken place. I note the second marriage (or I should say, the army's transcription of the record) gives Sarah's condition of spinster, but no mention of Thomas being a widower (that's not surprising as quite often more information was given about the bride than the groom, I'm just pointing it out!).

I do find it slightly surprising that in that mini-biography the writer mentions it was customary for Europeans to marry young at the time in India/Ceylon and specifies that Thomas was 20 at his marriage. Almost as if he wanted to write who Thomas married,but hadn't found a record of it!

Do you have a death record for Julia? Where did you find the birth records for their two daughters?

Merry

02-06-22, 08:38

Back to where I was last night....

Here's a link to the will of Alexander Hunter, Dr of Physic dated Sept 1782 and proved Oct 1782:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5111/images/40611_310239-00266?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=716c274cb46aa575444cb8be94aa633a&pId=490859

Wife Judith, only child Burella and mentions his father, Robert Hunter, Professor of Greek :)

and a link to his burial record:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2972/images/40612_B0151294-00056?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=6a136fa216c8b1b4bfce1f06ad19e0aa&pId=1898254

This could be his marriage to Judith, though of course at the moment we don't know how long he had been in London:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/61867/images/61865_314054001181_18057-00332?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=48ccaf750946de12ad61c61f7d57872a&usePUB=true&_phsrc=psY27128&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=1210362

and Judith's burial (aged 68 in 1806):

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2972/images/40612_B0151298-00214?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=7c703057dbc51f4681c45c3bb5134b2b&pId=46010165

Here's a link to the will for his daughter, Burella:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5111/images/40611_311594-00591?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=9c4b669afbb3de52de9c09383ee02988&pId=620213

If you have any problems with reading the wills, I don't mind typing them out, but don't have the time to do that now.

Blaquiere Talbot

02-06-22, 19:27

Merry: Re: Do you have a death record for Julia? Where did you find the birth records for their two daughters? I am afraid we are now getting back into the dark ages when I did everything manually with LDS microfilm so it will take some time but there are scanned documents in his Ancestry gallery. Ancestry also has a new post re Julia Sr: "Born in Holland on ABT 1780. Julia NA married Thomas Ajax Anderson and had 2 children. She passed away on 1807 in Ceylon." But I can't find the source! Maybe Dutch or, more likely, "Dutch Burgher"?

Merry

02-06-22, 20:26

In post #124 I found six children for Robert Hunter and Elizabeth Inglis:

John b 1734

Anne Gordon b 1735

Jane b 1736, d 1823

Robert b 1738

Alexander b 1739, d 1782

Charles b 1740, d bfr 1787

So, we know that Jane, Alexander and Charles lived to adulthood. I've now just found this burial record, but unfortunately there's no first name, so it could be for John, Robert or Anne, but could also be for another child:

Record set Scotland, Parish Deaths & Burials 1564-2017
Subcategory Parish Burials
Burial date 18 May 1747
First name(s) -
Last name Hunter
Archive reference OPR 685_1/94
Birth year -
Next of kin relationship Child of
Next of kin name Mr Hunter
Occupation Professor of greek
Place Edinburgh

Merry

02-06-22, 20:30

there are scanned documents in his Ancestry gallery

Sorry, which tree is that on?

Blaquiere Talbot

03-06-22, 02:44

Sorry: "Talbot of Stone Castle"

Merry

03-06-22, 08:19

Thanks.

I looked at the gallery and read the doc from the Colombo Diocesan Office which reported on the baptism of Julia in 1808 and stated that the mother's name was not given. I couldn't find any document regarding the first marriage or the birth of Emma in 1804.

I presume you had them look for these records, so I would think if the Diocesan Office couldn't find them, you may be out of luck.

Also:

Ancestry also has a new post re Julia Sr: "Born in Holland on ABT 1780. Julia NA married Thomas Ajax Anderson and had 2 children. She passed away on 1807 in Ceylon." But I can't find the source! Maybe Dutch or, more likely, "Dutch Burgher"?

I don't know what you mean by, "Ancestry also has a new post" - Please can you give a link to it?

Blaquiere Talbot

03-06-22, 19:47

SERAPHINA DONCLERE: The mysterious Seraphina Donclere was my 3rd great grandmother. She had a relationship with my 3rd great grandfather Lt-Col Dunbar James Hunter of the 19th Regiment of Foot aka “The Green Howards” in Ceylon from about 1800 to his death in 1803. They had one child my 2nd great grandmother Charlotte Hunter who was born in Trincomalee in 1802. However I have never found in my brief research another “Donclere” anywhere in the world! This cannot be a unique surname. One possible clue is that in Ceylon (first colonized by the Portuguese, then the Dutch then the British) the Portuguese honorific title prefix "Dom", originally applied to nobles and churchmen, caught on in Ceylon by undergoing a slight change to "Don" to precede the proper names of local men including Singhalese (aka “Indiacatos”) mixed race (aka "Mestiços") or pure Portuguese (aka "Castiços”). Many of these families were known as “Burghers” (as in Holland). So could my “Donclere” really be “Don Clere”? If so the “Clere” name could come from anywhere in the world as Ceylon in 1800 was a huge “melting pot” of nationalities. Can anyone else find another “Donclere”?
Richard Talbot
[email protected]

Blaquiere Talbot

05-06-22, 02:44

Born in Holland on ABT 1780. Julia NA married Thomas Ajax Anderson and had 2 children. She passed away on 1807 in Ceylon.

Merry

05-06-22, 08:09

Born in Holland on ABT 1780. Julia NA married Thomas Ajax Anderson and had 2 children. She passed away on 1807 in Ceylon.

Yes, that's what you said before, but I've found it now, here's the link:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/8727079/person/370071816657/facts

So, are you referring to the 'Suggested Biography' under 'Facts' on the left?

I have never created a tree on Ancestry, so don't know anything about the workings of trees or how they are created. I expect other people on GF will know though.

However, doesn't the Suggested Biography just come from the Facts information, which in this case are not facts at all, just ideas? e.g. no one is saying there is proof she was born in Holland in 1780, just that that is a possible scenario.

kiterunner

05-06-22, 11:45

Yes, it sounds like something which Ancestry has just put together based on members' trees.

Blaquiere Talbot

06-06-22, 20:27

Agreed but intriguing given the Dutch Burgher history in Ceylon? Her eldest daughter Emma Anderson was born in Ceylon in 1804. I must say I find Lahore a strange place of birth for Julia Anderson. Especially when she is christened back in Ceylon in 1808. However her death certificate is very clear and her daughter must have known her history. However Lahore is a long way from Ceylon especially for a pregnant woman in those days! And why on earth would Julia Sr go there? Anderson does not seem to be posted there. Also 1807 seems a very busy year for Thomas Ajax Anderson. He gains a daughter (Julia), loses a wife (Julia Sr), finds a new wife (Sarah Hollowell), gets thrown out of the 19th Foot, goes on long leave to England, transfers to the 60th Rifles (who are not even in India at this date) and then seems to return to Ceylon where he continues in the British Army with his new wife and family! My wild guess is Julia Sr is like Seraphina a Dutch Burger and not married to Anderson. Strange times. But don't forget he was a poet! As for Julia Anderson she did marry my 2nd great-grandfather Capt. Henry Christian Talbot in Calcutta in 1825. They lived in India and had many children. After her husband died in Mussoorie she lived with her daughter Emily Frances Talbot who married Colonel Wemyss Smith and, when they retired, returned to Oxford with them where she died in 1888 on the same day as Wemyss Smith. Being Scottish they saved money by having a 2 for 1 funeral!

Merry

06-06-22, 21:44

I must say I find Lahore a strange place of birth for Julia Anderson. Especially when she is christened back in Ceylon in 1808. However her death certificate is very clear and her daughter must have known her history.

I don't understand what you mean about Julia's death certificate - her place of birth was not something that the informant would have to provide in 1888. Having said that, the 1881 census does say Lahore, India for her place of birth. :)

Have you actually seen a copy of the Colombo baptism register Ref Vol 22/60?

kiterunner

06-06-22, 21:48

Also 1807 seems a very busy year for Thomas Ajax Anderson. He gains a daughter (Julia), loses a wife (Julia Sr), finds a new wife (Sarah Hollowell), gets thrown out of the 19th Foot, goes on long leave to England, transfers to the 60th Rifles (who are not even in India at this date) and then seems to return to Ceylon where he continues in the British Army with his new wife and family!

It was not unusual for a man to remarry pretty soon after a wife's death, perhaps especially if there was a baby and / or young children who needed looking after.

Blaquiere Talbot

10-06-22, 02:25

Two of his poems mention Julia. One I suspect is after her death when he writes a poem to possibly her sister Camilla saying how much she reminds him of his beloved Julia. The issue of Julia Jr's birth in Lahore in 1807 still bothers me. Anderson never seems to be posted to Lahore and its a hell of a long way from Ceylon by bullock cart! Just to get there, have a baby and get back to Ceylon for her christening in 1808 just seems so unlikely. And yet it is clearly stated on her death certificate! Another mystery!

Merry

10-06-22, 16:15

You said that before about her death certificate, but as I said the last time, place of birth wasn't a requirement for death registrations in England/Wales until the 1960s, so I don't understand how that information came to be included? Which column is it in?

It does say Lahore on the UK census though. Of course many people didn't know their place of birth or were mistaken.

Blaquiere Talbot

10-06-22, 20:28

1: I found the Julia Jr Holland birth reference: "Julia was born in Holland "according to another tree holder who has mislaid the research"! See Thomas Dunn of Glaven tree!
2: The 1881 Census has her as: " Name: Julia Talbot Age74. Estimated Birth Year 1807. Relationship to Head Lodger. Gender Female. Where born Lahore, India. Civil parish Paddington County/Island London Country England Street Address 61 Hereford Rd Marital Status Widow Occupation Independant Registration district Kensington Sub registration district St Mary Paddington
2: Julia Jr's death notices (together with those of her son-in-law Colonel Wemyss Smith who was buried the same day): Births, Deaths, Marriages and Obituaries
... 30, Norhbam-road, Oxford, Colonel Wemyss Smith, of the Bengal Staff Corps, Retired List, aged 60. Julia, wife of the late Henry Christian Talbot, late Major of 61st Regiment, East India Army, fell asleep on 3 July 22nd, at 30, Norham-road, ...

Published: Saturday 28 July 1888
Newspaper: Oxford Journal
County: Oxfordshire, England
Type: FamilyNotice | Words: 4587 | Page: 5 | Tags: Births, Deaths, Marriages and Obituaries

Merry

10-06-22, 22:19

So, nothing on the death certificate then?

1) Irrelevent if no proof available.

2) Information probably supplied by Julia herself, but did she know her birthplace?

3) The Oxford Journal 28 July 1888 doesn't mention where Julia was born.

Blaquiere Talbot

13-06-22, 19:32

1: Lahore? Very strange! She was baptised and brought up in Colombo and all her half siblings lived with her there. She must have known she was from Ceylon. Was she hiding her mother's background?
2: I think you are too nice about Thomas Ajax! Julia's daughter Julia Anderson and Sarah's daughter Caroline Anderson were baptised together!
3: Merry I have been entering all your Hunter data for which manty thanks but cannot find the marriage between Charles Hunter and Elizabeth Mclellan in c 1767?

Merry

13-06-22, 21:34

2: I think you are too nice about Thomas Ajax!

I don't know what you mean?

cannot find the marriage between Charles Hunter and Elizabeth Mclellan in c 1767?

No, I couldn't find it either. Not all records survive though.

Blaquiere Talbot

14-06-22, 02:33

"Poems, written chiefly in India" By Thomas Ajax Anderson shows him as "late paymaster and Adjutant to a Corps of Pioneers on Ceylon" "
"I envy still thy spicy shores, In fancy view the form my soul adores, And muse upon my Julia's last farewell !"

Blaquiere Talbot

18-06-22, 02:37

Rather shocked to see that Thomas Ajax departed to UK on long "Home Leave" for three years! on 1st October 1807 leaving his new wife Sarah Hollowell (married in May 1807) pregnant with their 1st daughter Caroline to also look after his two infant children Emma & Julia from his recently deceaesed 1st wife Julia ?? who died in the spring thus missing the christening of both Julia and Caroline in April 1808. Not a father role model! However he was a poet!

kiterunner

18-06-22, 09:31

I don't think fathers had much to do with bringing up young children in those days.

Blaquiere Talbot

18-06-22, 18:07

Even more shocking: "Sarah Hollowell married Thomas Ajax Anderson in Colombo, Western Sri Lanka, Sri Lanka, on May 4, 1807, when she was 13 years old". Poor kid!

kiterunner

18-06-22, 21:36

Again, not uncommon in that area at that time.

Blaquiere Talbot

19-06-22, 18:04

He married the babysitter!

Olde Crone

19-06-22, 19:00

I have two females in my tree married at 13, one in India to a man 35 years her senior, the other a farmer's daughter in Cheshire married a 14 year old and she was already pregnant. They stayed together for more than 50 years and had 12 children.

OC

Blaquiere Talbot

26-06-22, 19:55

I am still on the trail of my mysterious and exotic 3rd great grandmother Seraphina Donclere. Sadly the name “Donclere” does not appear anywhere else in the world. It appears to be a unique “one off” so my preference is to agree with those suggesting the name is really “Clere” with the honorific “Don” tacked on the front as practiced by Portuguese Burghers in Ceylon. Now the name “Clere” although originally Norman French had, by the time of Seraphina, been spread throughout Europe and, with the Napoleonic Wars, spread even further by regular and mercenary soldiers, sailors and traders throughout the known world. For example when Seraphina first met her “spouse” Lt-Col Dunbar James Hunter he was out of Ceylon and in India at the capture of Seringapatam in 1799. Amongst the captives would have been many mercenaries from all over Europe (including 500 French) in Tipu Sahib’s multi-racial army with their wives/widows and daughters. On the British side there were also Portuguese regiments with their families. Could Seraphina be from one of these? There is however one tantalizing later clue which might support the Portuguese origin theory. In the difficult to read codicil to the will of Seraphina’s youngest daughter Harriot Elizabeth Slessor, dated 1832, it states - I think - “£50 must be given to my daughter Louisa de Soza towards procuring a pension in a convent in Portugal”. (Note: Yet another mystery I can find no other reference to a “Louisa de Soza”!

kiterunner

26-06-22, 21:37

In another part of her will the name is spelt De Souza. By the way, it is my transcription that you are quoting when you say that you think it is what it says.

Merry

27-06-22, 08:12

In the difficult to read codicil to the will of Seraphina’s youngest daughter Harriot Elizabeth Slessor, dated 1832, it states - I think - “£50 must be given to my daughter Louisa de Soza towards procuring a pension in a convent in Portugal”.

The 1832 will is not that of Seraphina's daughter though, is it? Seraphina's daughter, Harriot, didn't die until 1887. The 1832 will is for Seraphina's partner's mother, Harriot Elizabeth Slessor, nee Bristow. So, on your Talbot tree you need to remove Louisa De Soza from the list of children for Harriot Elizabeth Slessor and consider whether Louisa Maria Slessor b 1775, dau of John Henry Slessor and Harriot Elizabeth Bristow, is the same person as Louisa de So(u)za.

EDIT: a couple of Ancestry tree owners have probably sourced material from here:

https://pt-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Pedro_Ant%C3%B3nio_Machado_Pinto_de_Sousa_Canavarr o?_x_tr_sl=pt&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

Merry

27-06-22, 08:47

There's an entry for the marriage of Sophia Matilda Slessor to James Walsh, 05 Nov 1803, in the Portugal Marriage Index 1670-1910 on FMP, but I don't see an entry for her sister Louisa.

Blaquiere Talbot

27-06-22, 17:50

Oh dear I am getting in a muddle.
1: Kiterunner: I was reading the original. I have misplaced the transcript please repost.
2: Merry: Thanks for the correction.

Blaquiere Talbot

27-06-22, 18:05

OK got it:

Pedro António Machado Pinto de Souza Canavarro 1º barão de Arcossó Marriage to Louisa Maria Slessor 23 February 1802

kiterunner

27-06-22, 18:07

Oh dear I am getting in a muddle.
1: Kiterunner: I was reading the original. I have misplaced the transcript please repost.

See post #21. Sorry, now I do see you were not using my transcription!

Blaquiere Talbot

28-06-22, 18:18

Kiterunner: I understand there is available on-line Seraphina's property inventory of several pages taken by the EIC executors after her death. There may be something there which will identify her origins. Where can I find it?

kiterunner

28-06-22, 18:36

Blaquiere Talbot

14-07-22, 02:07

Thanks but I do not have access to "Findmypast". Where else?
Richard

Merry

14-07-22, 05:46

FIBIS only seems to direct you to FMP:

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Wills,_Administrations,_Probate_and_Inventories

You can get a free trial on FMP if you haven't already had one.

kiterunner

14-07-22, 09:11

Findmypast does pay-as-you-go now, so it is meaningless not to "have access" to it. When you have clicked on the link from post #28, scroll down to where it says "Commitment shy? Buy the record on its own" and it will say you need to pay £1.50. The same for the second link. I think you will need to make a free account first if you haven't got one already.

Merry

14-07-22, 16:09

Oooh I wondered if that was the case!

Blaquiere Talbot

16-07-22, 21:03

Progress!

1: Seraphina Donclere:
I have found another Donclere. She is on Facebook name of living person removed. I have messaged her but doubt I’ll receive a reply - “weird old man claiming to be a relative!”. However in reviewing her connections on Facebook they all seem to come from the Flemish part of Belgium. Now in the early 1800s Belgium was part of Holland so I think we can assume that Seraphina was indeed of Dutch (but Flemish? Walloon?) heritage and that is where her name originated. Thus we can pretty confidently say she was a “Dutch Burgher” from Ceylon (probable Galle or Trincomalee where Lt-Col Hunter commanded). Next step? Dutch church records for both towns?

2: Bridget Watson.
I found a Ricketts family tree on-line (see: https://woodlloydfamilyhistory.com/fam3172.html). Fanny Ricketts, is listed as the eldest daughter of Mordaunt Ricketts & Maria Elizabeth Crommelin. She was born in Barrackpore in 1808. However a note at the bottom says her christening document states her mother was Bridget Watson! We all know that is Mordaunt’s mistress and Seraphina’s friend who was guardian to her 2nd daughter Harriet Slessor when she died in 1810. So that resolves the earlier Crommelin/Watson confusion in the earlier posts!

Again many thanks to the team! Richard

kiterunner

16-07-22, 21:45

Please don't post information about living people without their permission. Also I think you are making a lot of assumptions based on very little evidence there.

Blaquiere Talbot

21-07-22, 22:25

Agreed but I think I am on the right track as do the Dutch Burgher Association. See:
Netherlands, Dutch East India Company Crew Index, 1633-1795
Name: Jacobus Doncler
Departure Date: 13 mei 1685 (13 May 1685)
Departure Place: Sluis
Arrival Date: 4 Feb 1686
Relative: Cornelia De Janse

Merry

22-07-22, 07:59

There's a smattering of entries for people apparently named Doncler on Ancestry, but for the most part they only appear on one record, having a different spelling elsewhere and, where I am able to look at the original image, could very easily be mistranscriptions.

There's a Doncler couple from Czechoslovakia appearing on the US census. If you wanted Seraphina to have links to Czechoslovakia instead of Holland would you have chosen to add this couple to your tree instead of Jacobus?

Thus we can pretty confidently say she was a “Dutch Burgher” from Ceylon

That shouldn't say, 'we' - it's just you who is confident!!! :D

Blaquiere Talbot

22-07-22, 18:39

You are correct. The term "Dutch Burgher" does indeed include the descendants of traders, mercenaries etc. from all over Europe who worked for the Dutch East India Company, regarded themselves as "Dutch", settled in Ceylon and married/cohabited with the widows & daughters of the previous Portuguese settlers. So when the British took over from the Dutch they naturally also married/cohabited with these "Dutch Burgher" ladies including two of my 3rd great grandfathers Lt-Col Dunbar Hunter and Capt. Thomas Ajax Anderson. Which is hardly surprising since they were both in their 20s and their regiment the 19th Regiment of Foot (aka "The Green Howards") was stationed in Ceylon for an amazing 25 years!

Blaquiere Talbot

14-08-22, 02:04

The surname "Donclere" remains incredibly elusive. However in addition to the one on Facebook (above) I have now found two more mentions:
1: In the "Dutch East India Company Crew Index, 1633-1795" I found "Jacobus Donclere" departing Sluis, Zederik, Zuid-Holland for Batavia.
2: In "Recueil he?raldique avec des notices ge?ne?alogiques et historiques sur un grand nombre de familles nobles et patriciennes de la ville et du franconat de Bruges" a book on heraldic families in Bruges I found "Dame Ann-Thérése de Donclere".

Blaquiere Talbot

11-09-22, 18:40

The origins of my 3rd great-grandmother remains a mystery. In her John Company “probate” she is described as “Mrs. Seraphina Donclere” so it is possible that when she met Lt-Col Dunbar Hunter she was a young “widow” whose Dutch “Husband” had either died or left with the Dutch exodus for Batavia, The Cape or Holland when the British took over Ceylon in 1796. I have now retained a Singhalese genealogist who is going to start searching for “Donclere” (or variants) in Trincomalee. Fingers crossed! In any event I think we can conclude she was an absolute “stunner” to have seduced two very eligible senior British officers! Her looks and intelligence must have been continued by her two daughters who both made amazingly good marriages after being returned to their respective grand-mothers in UK!

kiterunner

11-09-22, 19:06

I think I have explained a few times already that in those days the word Mrs did not necessarily mean that a woman was married or widowed, just denoted her social status.

Blaquiere Talbot

24-09-22, 19:09

Understood. However since her first child (Charlotte Hunter) was born in 1802 we can assume she was of marriageable age in 1796 when the British drove the Dutch out of Ceylon. If she was "married" to a Dutch or Dutch Burgher named Donclere he may have died or perhaps been killed in the British attack or perhaps he departed Ceylon with the exodus of Dutch officials, soldiers and settlers under the peace treaty with the British. So in 1801 she may have been a young widow or a "divorcee" when she met Lt-Col Hunter. As a result I have asked my Singhalese researcher to expand her search for Donclere from just births to births, marriages & deaths.

kiterunner

24-09-22, 19:10

Sorry, but if her first child was born in 1802 she might have been too young to marry 6 years before that.

Blaquiere Talbot

25-09-22, 02:36

One would hope but as I recall the legal age for girls in Scotland was 12 and also in Ceylon Sarah Hollowell married Thomas Ajax Anderson in Colombo when she was 13!

Merry

25-09-22, 10:47

I agree with kiterunner. For example, if she was 15 when she had her first child then she would only have been nine years old in 1796.

Blaquiere Talbot

15-10-22, 18:39

So probably born c 1786?

Blaquiere Talbot

29-12-23, 19:32

A good suggestion from Flanders Archives attached
Richard

Blaquiere Talbot

31-12-23, 18:38

P.S. I dipped my toe into the Donckere family trees. I note Seraphina was a popular family name in the 1700s.

Blaquiere Talbot

27-04-24, 19:12

Hi Merry et al.

We made contact last year without success (see below) but I now have a new suggestion. My 3rd great grandmother is the famous mystery woman, Seraphina Donclere. She was, I think, a mixed-race Dutch/Singhalese girl who had a relationship with my 3rd great grandfather Lt-Col Dunbar James Hunter who commanded the British troops in Trincomalee, Ceylon in the 1800s. They had a daughter Charlotte Hunter who was only two years old when Colonel Hunter died very suddenly. He left GBP50 to Seraphina and the rest of his estate to Charlotte and her Hunter grandmother brought her back to England where she married very well into the Bevan family. She is my 2nd great grandmother. After Colonel Hunter’s death Seraphina travelled to Calcutta and met Captain William Slessor. William & Seraphina moved to Kishanganj where they also had one daughter Harriet and, after Seraphina died in childbirth and William by suicide in 1810, her grandmother Slessor also brought Harriett back to UK where she too married very well. Harriett became the 3rd great grandmother of the famous British actress Olivia Coleman (The Crown etc.). As a result of Olivia’s connection there is a lot of on-line interest in Seraphina especially since she was mentioned on the BBC programme “Who do you think you are”. However, no one has managed to trace Seraphina’s father or family. I have made several inquiries to various “researchers” in Ceylon but no luck so far. I did find a Donclere as a member of the Dutch East India Company and one in Bruges but no link.

Both “Living DNA” and “Ancestry.com” report that As you report my own DNA shows no Asian DNA. Yesterday I was going through my grandfather’s travelling writing desk and in a secret drawer I found a lock of his mother’s hair. She was Theodosia Bevan and her mother was Charlotte Hunter (see above) so her grandmother was the elusive Seraphina Donclere. I have written to “Living DNA” and “Ancestry.com” asking if there any way to test the DNA in Theodosia’s hair which might help resolve this mystery. Any other suggestions?

Many thanks:
Richard Talbot
Vancouver Island