Cyril Eric Pearce

[James18]

Hi all,

I'm trying to trace a man who married under the name Cyril Eric Pearce. He married Peggy Horn (a false name, as far as I know) in Bromley, Kent in Q3 1959. According to the marriage certificate he was 35 (the same as Peggy) and a coffin maker. His father's name is Charles Pearce and he's a railway guard.

Peggy died in 1959 and Cyril is mentioned as husband on her death certificate, so presumably he outlived her. Someone I'm in touch with does have Cyril on her family tree, but that section of it is very confused (as she admits!) and she seems to have some incorrect sources attached for Cyril.

Any help would be appreciated, as it would be nice to be able to add some sources before the free weekend is over. :)

[maggie_4_7]

Hi James

The marriage is 1953, probably just a typo

https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8753&h=28154378&ssrc=pt&tid=55750090&pid=30439334029&usePUB=true

[Merry]

Initially I couldn't find anything helpful by doing normal searches, but then I looked at an Ancestry tree that included Cyril and Peggy - I don't know if this is the one you referred to, as it doesn't seem confused!

EDIT: turns out this is just an elimination!:

The tree doesn't give the exact marriage date, but the tree owner still seems to know that Cyril's father was Charles and they have a suggested birth date for Charles of 1897 (which might be a guess!). They do have an exact birth date for Cyril and a month of death, so the dob would seem to come only from the death reg. Whilst they call him Cyril E Pearce, the birth and death reg they have linking up are for Walter Edwin F Pearce:


Births Jun 1917
Pearce Walter E F mmn Parsons Croydon 2a 448

Name: Walter Edwin F Pearce
Death Age: 78
Birth Date: 6 May 1917
Registration Date: Oct 1995
Registration district: Bromley
Inferred County: Greater London
Register Number: B26
District and Subdistrict: 2221B

The problem with this is that from checking other birth registrations and the 1939 register I see the parents of Walter were George Henry Pearce and Ethel Parsons who married in 1902. They are all together in 1939.

[James18]

@Maggie

Yes, sorry, that was a typo by me. The marriage was '53, and Peggy died in '59.

@Merry

Yeah, that's probably her tree. She has several different versions of Peggy on the same tree, and two versions of one of Peggy's sons because he was adopted by Peggy's parents and raised by them as their son, so he's down as being both a brother and son of Peggy in separate entries.

I've seen that entry before but dismissed it; it could be correct of course, and I assume she went with it because that guy is about the right age and died in the same area, but why the name discrepancy? I remember looking at it a while ago and I was able to find other marriage entries under that name, and like you say, the parents' names are different. I just assumed it was a case of grasping at straws and thought nothing more of it.

The issue is probably whether Cyril was being honest about his age on the marriage certificate, but if he was then it shouldn't be too hard to find him. We know his father's name, so perhaps the 1939 Register may help? Perhaps one or both of them had the same (or similar) occupations in 1939?

I know that Cyril and Peggy had several children and presumably they're all still alive so won't list them here (some are visible on that family tree you found, though) but Peggy also had at least three sons that I know of before she got married. That tree you found belongs to the granddaughter of one of those sons, and I've been trying to trace the other two sons -- one of whom on behalf of his half-sisters.

So, as far as I know we're looking for a Cyril Eric Pearce, but if Peggy's anything to go by then anything could be possible. Peggy's surname when she married Cyril Pearce was Horne, and she claimed to be a widow despite never having been married and the man whose name she took (the father of one of her elder sons -- no idea what happened to him!) being alive and well in 1953.

[kiterunner]

James, what's Cyril's address on the marriage certificate, please?

[James18]

30 Marlow Road, Anerley, S.E. 20 district of Bromley.

At the time of Peggy's death, one of her elder sons (the informant) lived at 30 Village Way, Beckenham.

[kiterunner]

Ancestry's London Electoral Registers don't seem to include Marlow Road around 1953, unfortunately.

[Merry]

Any clues from the 1953 marriage witnesses?

[Merry]

We know his father's name, so perhaps the 1939 Register may help? Perhaps one or both of them had the same (or similar) occupations in 1939?


Nothing to help in 1939 as far as I could see.

We know what he said his father's name was! We know what he said his own name was!


I have a man on my tree who married using his father's name (because the marriage was bigamous) and I think (memory giving out in this heat!) gave his grandfather's details as his father's details. He also registered the births of a couple of his children, lying about who their mother was, so anything seems possible!

[James18]

Any clues from the 1953 marriage witnesses?

"In the presence of us, A.L. Pearce and A.A. Martin"

Could possibly be A.R. Pearce, but I think it's an L.

I notice Peggy has given her father's name as John Breeze, but I don't know whether she actually ever knew her father's name, and it certainly wasn't Breeze, which was her mother's maiden name. I have a copy of Peggy's birth certificate and no father's name is given. She was born as Peggy Winifred Breeze, and as far as I know was only married once (to Cyril Pearce) but did so under the name Horne, and claimed to be a widow.

[James18]

I've been sent a scan of the Peggy / Cyril marriage certificate, and Cyril's father is given as Charles Pearce, railway carpenter. There's a 1911 census for a Charles Pearce born ~1862, occupation 'Carpenter L N R Railway' in Newport Pagnell.

It is possible that A.L. Pearce (witness) is A.J. Pearce, which could be Charles' wife from the 1911 census, Alice Jane Pearce. It doesn't really look like a J to me, but I've been wrong plenty of times before when it comes to handwriting on official certificates!

It does not say that Charles is deceased, though, so I don't know whether he'd still be alive and working as a railway worker, or he's dead and used to be a railway worker. If the former, then it can't be the man on the 1911 census.

I wonder if this could lead us to Cyril, or is perhaps simply a red herring?

[JayG]

A tree on Ancestry has Charles dying in 1936 and his wife Alice Jane nee Hill dying in 1935.

[James18]

A tree on Ancestry has Charles dying in 1936 and his wife Alice Jane nee Hill dying in 1935.
What are the children's names?

[JayG]

Only one child, Winifred Alice born 1905.

[kiterunner]

I didn't realise that you hadn't actually seen the marriage cert before, James. I remember I spent a while looking for a likely Charles Pearce who was a guard with no luck!

There are many Pearce / Hill births on FreeBMD; might take a while to figure out which ones belong to Charles and Alice but I don't see an obvious one for Cyril at the moment.

[Merry]

Where did the cert copy come from? If it's from the GRO then the initials for the witness will only be as accurate as the person(s) copying the information from one place to another!

[James18]

I didn't realise that you hadn't actually seen the marriage cert before, James. I remember I spent a while looking for a likely Charles Pearce who was a guard with no luck!
Cyril's occupation is given as railway guard on Peggy's death certificate (1959), and coffin maker on their marriage certificate (1953). However, on the latter his father's occupation is given as railway carpenter, which is why that 1911 census stood out to me. It's just a stab in the dark, though, and it would mean that Charles was quite old by the time Cyril was born.

I assume Cyril died after 1959 because Peggy is described as 'wife of Cyril Pearce', and not as a his widow, or that he is deceased.

They are both given as age 35 on the marriage certificate, which would put Cyril's birth at around 1916-1918 (Peggy's is 29/09/17) -- there are a couple of Cyril E Pearce births around that time, but assuming Eric was indeed his middle name then both can seemingly be ruled out by death records on Ancestry.

I have scans of Peggy's birth, marriage and death certificates, but so far no confirmed birth or death for Cyril.

[James18]

Where did the cert copy come from? If it's from the GRO then the initials for the witness will only be as accurate as the person(s) copying the information from one place to another!
It's a GRO copy from 2017. I have been e-mailed a very clear photograph of it.

[James18]

There's a Cyril E Pearce born 08/06/1923 on the 1939 Register, living in Maidenhead. I assume he's dead because his details come up. Looks to have older brothers named Reginald and John. The father's name is Charles T Pearce, so I just wondered whether someone could check the father's occupation for me. Is there a Cyril E Pearce death matching a 1923 DOB?

I am just working on the assumption that perhaps Cyril was younger than Peggy, and lied about his age on the marriage certificate -- not uncommon when the bride was a number of years older than the groom.

Thank you!

[kiterunner]

That Charles is a Public works constructor's heavy labourer:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61596/tna_r39_2050_2050g_023/903193?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fqh%3d8wvDU7L8ptRYqmj6rdsb6w%253D%2 53D%26db%3d1939UKRegister%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_db%26ne w%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3 dcyril%2520e%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dpearce%26gsln_x %3d1%26msbdy%3d1923%26msbdy_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uid h%3dvm5&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults