View Full Version : Missing in 1881/1891
Can anyone see Michael Gibbons in 1881/1891?
He'd probably be in the West Ham, Essex area - he married Elizabeth Montgomery there in 1885. I can't see any birth registrations for children of this couple so whether they stayed together I don't know. She died 1899 and I have Michael still in West Ham in 1901.
The most likely baptism I've found for him gives dob Oct 1850 in Finsbury, and I have this Michael Gibbons in 1851/1861/1871. However, his 2 marriages and 1901 census suggest a date of birth 1853-1861, and place of birth Bishopsgate.
Any ideas appreciated.
kiterunner
02-07-18, 15:28
What are his father's details from his marriage records, and was he a bachelor on the marriage to Elizabeth? And what are his occupation and his address on the marriage records?
According to his 2 marriages his father was Thomas Gibbons.
First marriage to Elizabeth Montgomery he was a bachelor, occupation waiter, address 27 Abbey Street
Second marriage Mary Ann Montgomery he was a widower, occupation labourer, address 17 Francis Street
His first wife Elizabeth was at 37 Martindale Road, West Ham when she died in 1899, and the informant was E Johnson, daughter.
kiterunner
02-07-18, 15:54
Thanks. So was Elizabeth a widow on her marriage to Michael?
kiterunner
02-07-18, 16:04
For reference, this is 37 Martindale Rd in 1901 but none of them look to be connected:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7814/ESSRG13_1578_1580-0869?pid=9010678&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx226&_phstart=successSource#?imageId=ESSRG13_1578_1580-0857
According to the marriage cert she was a spinster, age 30.
I haven't managed to find anything about her - her father was supposed to be Michael Montgomery, a hawker, but I can't find any trace of them. Unfortunately that's fairly typical of this branch.
kiterunner
02-07-18, 18:22
I'm getting nowhere with them, but I don't know whether it's because they aren't to be found or because ancestry's search is so bad at the moment.
I couldn't find them either and I used FMP as well as Ancestry.
I did find some of the children from the second marriage in 1939, but I can't find any of them in 1911.
Thanks for looking - this lot are elusive.
Quite possibly I'll never be able to pin them down, which is very frustrating!
His first wife Elizabeth was at 37 Martindale Road, West Ham when she died in 1899, and the informant was E Johnson, daughter.
https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=FS1EnglandEssexParishRegisters&h=1495053&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=9852
E Johnson, aka Elizabeth Gibbons. B.1878, father Michael Gibbons. Marr 25 Dec 1901 Canning-town Essex, spouse James Henry Pike.
Presumably both the Montgomery girls said their father was Michael? Did either say he was dec'd?
Perhaps you could give us the names of the witnesses at the marriages?
Do you know if Mary Ann is the Mary A Gibbons who died in 1935 in West Ham AGED 66 (a bit young)?
Do you think the mysterious E Johnson is a red herring (ie not a daughter of the dec'd)?
I haven't managed to find a birth reg for Nellie aged 1 in 1901. Have you?
maggie_4_7
03-07-18, 12:59
Presumably both the Montgomery girls said their father was Michael? Did either say he was dec'd?
Perhaps you could give us the names of the witnesses at the marriages?
Do you know if Mary Ann is the Mary A Gibbons who died in 1935 in West Ham AGED 66 (a bit young)?
Do you think the mysterious E Johnson is a red herring (ie not a daughter of the dec'd)?
I haven't managed to find a birth reg for Nellie aged 1 in 1901. Have you?
I have tried looking for this lot as well - can't find Nellie's birth but there is this birth
GIBBONS, CATHERINE MMN= MONTGOMERY
GRO Reference: 1901
S Quarter in WEST HAM
Volume 04A Page 185
Mary Ann Montgomery's (Michael's second wife) father is Joseph and she was born in Spitalfields I assumed she was Elizabeth's sister, tried to track her back but no Elizabeth with them, perhaps a cousin.
https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=FS1EnglandEssexParishRegisters&h=1495053&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=9852
E Johnson, aka Elizabeth Gibbons. B.1878, father Michael Gibbons. Marr 25 Dec 1901 Canning-town Essex, spouse James Henry Pike.
Talk about confusing, her mother married Michael in 1885! She was born 1878 perhaps the marriage in 1885 isn't the right couple! Or she is using Michael because she doesn't know who her father is. Are we assuming Johnson was her other married name and she was married before James Pike. I have looked for a birth for on the GRO can't find anything yet.
kiterunner
03-07-18, 13:33
Pike / Gibbons births: James Henry Oct-Dec 1902 West Ham
Elizabeth Oct-Dec 1905 West Ham
Alfred John Apr-Jun 1908 West Ham
Louisa Apr-Jun 1911 West Ham.
Hoping we can find them on the 1911 census!
kiterunner
03-07-18, 13:40
Yes, here is Elizabeth in 1911:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_09479_0195_03/52482222?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdbid%3d2352%26gsfn%3dalf*%26gsln%3 dpike%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26cp%3d11%26msbdy% 3d1909%26msbpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d 2%26pcat%3d1911uki%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26redir%3d false&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
21 Tree Rd, Custom House, Canning Town
Elizabeth Pike Wife 33 Married 9 years, 3 children born alive, 0 died, though some other figures were originally written in
Nellie Pike Daughter 11 School
Elizabeth Pike Daughter 5
Alfred Pike Son 2.
All born Canning Town.
Census page is signed by an Albert Pike. :confused:
Is this the same Nellie who was Michael Gibbons's daughter in 1901, or are there two Nellies?!
kiterunner
03-07-18, 13:42
Nelly Johnson birth registered Oct-Dec 1899 West Ham, MMN Gibbons.
kiterunner
03-07-18, 13:45
There is also a Mary Ann Johnson birth Oct-Dec 1897 and a William John Johnson birth Oct-Dec 1898 both West Ham, MMN Gibbons. But of course Johnson is such a common name that they might be unconnected.
Edit - possible death for Mary Ann Jan-Mar 1898 and for William John Jan-Mar 1899, so no good looking for them in 1901!
Well, I was following the wrong hare with James Henry Pike in 1911:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_01738_0167_03/3017527?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fqh%3dRQH7O8flJv%252FVWVy%252FP0OF9 A%253D%253D%26db%3d1911England%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_ db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dja mes%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dpike%26gsln_x%3d1%26mssn g%3delizabeth%26mssng_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d9v h&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
He was married to an Alice Elizabeth
kiterunner
03-07-18, 13:58
This looks like James Henry Pike in 1901:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7814/ESSRG13_1581_1583-0608/9028834?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fqh%3dx8WJRHd6cMACGj5EoOV01A%253D%2 53D%26db%3duki1901%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db%26new%3d1 %26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dja*s%26gsfn_x% 3d1%26gsln%3dpike%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1877%26ms bdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26gskw%3dessex%26gskw_x%3d1% 26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
16 St Luke's Sq, Canning Town
James Pike Head Widr 47 General Labourer Devonshire Upottery
James H Do Son S 23 Do London Bromley
Arthur W Pike S 17 General Labourer London Bromley
John Do Son 15 West Ham Canning Town
Albert E Do Son 13 Do Do
Lilly E Do Daur 9 Do Do.
I was hoping Elizabeth Johnson / Gibbons might be with him as it is only a few months before her marriage to James, but no. I suppose this Albert is the one who signed the 1911 census page.
kiterunner
03-07-18, 13:59
Well, I was following the wrong hare with James Henry Pike in 1911:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_01738_0167_03/3017527?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fqh%3dRQH7O8flJv%252FVWVy%252FP0OF9 A%253D%253D%26db%3d1911England%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_ db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dja mes%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dpike%26gsln_x%3d1%26mssn g%3delizabeth%26mssng_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d9v h&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
He was married to an Alice Elizabeth
Yes, I saw them, but there is a separate marriage entry for them on FreeBMD.
kiterunner
03-07-18, 14:37
Phew, finally realised we would be able to view a tiny version of James and Elizabeth's marriage cert on SEAX without paying:
http://seax.essexcc.gov.uk/Result_Details.aspx?ID=51000
if the image doesn't come up from that link, the parish is Canning Town, church Holy Trinity Barking Road, image number 48. Thankfully it's clear enough that we can see Elizabeth is a widow. Two of the witnesses are M Gibbons and M A Gibbons, presumably Michael and Mary Ann.
kiterunner
03-07-18, 14:41
Possible for Elizabeth's first marriage on FreeBMD:
Marriages Sep 1897
Gibbings Elizabeth W. Ham 4a 205
Green George West Ham 4a 205
Johnson John W.Ham 4a 205
Murray Elizabeth Jane W. Ham 4a 205
maggie_4_7
03-07-18, 15:32
Well done Kiterunner.
kiterunner
03-07-18, 15:44
More a case of well done Macbev!
We still haven't found Michael or either Elizabeth in 1881 or 1891, though...
maggie_4_7
03-07-18, 15:55
More a case of well done Macbev!
We still haven't found Michael or either Elizabeth in 1881 or 1891, though...
True, I can't find Elizabeth their daughter either but if she was born in 1878 we don't know the name she is using in 1881 if the marriage in 1885 is correct I assume Montgomery.
True, I can't find Elizabeth their daughter either but if she was born in 1878 we don't know the name she is using in 1881 if the marriage in 1885 is correct I assume Montgomery.
We can only assume that if we think Elizabeth Montgomery was her mother. ;( Perhaps Michael Gibbons was her father, but there may have been a third lady who preceded both Elizabeth and Mary Ann. Btw, why do the latter have the same surname 'Montgomery' - were they related in some way, apart from having the same husband?
https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=FS1EnglandEssexParishRegisters&h=1495053&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=9852
E Johnson, aka Elizabeth Gibbons. B.1878, father Michael Gibbons. Marr 25 Dec 1901 Canning-town Essex, spouse James Henry Pike.
Oh, well done! Quite a lot to take in here.
To answer some of the other questions - as far as I know Elizabeth Montgomery and Mary Ann Montgomery weren't sisters - Mary Anne's father was (possibly) Joseph Montgomery. Or not. (There's an old thread about them here: http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=23646&highlight=joseph+montgomery)
Mary Ann died West Ham 1935 age 66.
So far I hadn't tracked down Nellie Gibbons' birth in 1899, so the Nellie Johnson birth that Kiterunner found looks promising.
Thanks again for your help, everyone.
I've ordered the Elizabeth Gibbings/Johnson 1897 marriage cert, and Nellie Johnson's birth cert. I hope it confirms her parentage - it always bothered me that she seemed to disappear into thin air after 1901.
Now, if I can only find Michael in 1881/1891 and prove he's the same Michael that I have in 1851/1861/1871...
I found the image of the Johnson/Pike marriage in 1901 (The parish church of H.Trinity, West Ham), through familysearch.org site.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/film/004041220?cc=1465709
The relevant image in on one of the last thumbnails
It gives Michael Gibbons as the father of the bride, and as was pointed out in an earlier post, M and M.A Gibbons acted as witnesses (Michael & Mary Ann?) Michael was a dock labourer. Elizabeth (23) was a widow, James Henry Pike (24) was a bachelor, both resident at 45 Alice street
Thanks, Macbev, that's a lovely clear image. I really should work on my knowledge of FamilySearch as I very rarely find anything at all there these days. I didn't realise they had any Essex images.
I'm hoping Elizabeth's 1st marriage cert to Mr Johnson might shed a little more light (couldn't see it at Holy Trinity on FamilySearch).
There is a Michael Gibbons, 29 yrs, in the Highgate Infirmary (rheumatism) admitted 22 May 1891. If this is our chap, may explain why he cannot be found on the census for 1891. Nothing to confirm or disprove unfortunately.
https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=60391&h=4902049&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=CRL2396&_phstart=successSource
maggie_4_7
05-07-18, 08:28
Oh, well done! Quite a lot to take in here.
To answer some of the other questions - as far as I know Elizabeth Montgomery and Mary Ann Montgomery weren't sisters - Mary Anne's father was (possibly) Joseph Montgomery. Or not. (There's an old thread about them here: http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=23646&highlight=joseph+montgomery)
Mary Ann died West Ham 1935 age 66.
So far I hadn't tracked down Nellie Gibbons' birth in 1899, so the Nellie Johnson birth that Kiterunner found looks promising.
I did notice on this census
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/76...nSearchResultsMonto
an Isaac Montgomery above Joseph, I think he is a brother of Joseph. Both Isaac and Henry the father are Hawkers.
Isaac marriage to Eliza Kindred.
https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=bOv141&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=1623&gsfn=Isaac&gsln=Montgomery&catBucket=r&cp=4&msbdy=1831&new=1&rank=1&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=34&fh=2&h=2965816&recoff=&ml_rpos=3
He is a widow. I think this might be his first marriage but both Isaac and Henry are Box Makers rather than Hawkers on the 1870 marriage. Edit I see Henry is a boxmaker on Josephs marriage to Ellen Atkins.
https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=bOv141&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=1623&gsfn=Isaac&gsln=Montgomery&catBucket=r&cp=4&msbdy=1831&new=1&rank=1&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=34&fh=1&h=4342669&recoff=&ml_rpos=2
Sorry for going off on an tangent but it might help to unravel Elizabeth Montgomery and Michael Gibbons.
There is a Michael Gibbons, 29 yrs, in the Highgate Infirmary (rheumatism) admitted 22 May 1891. If this is our chap, may explain why he cannot be found on the census for 1891. Nothing to confirm or disprove unfortunately.
https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=60391&h=4902049&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=CRL2396&_phstart=successSource
Good spot - definitely one to bear in mind. He's a bit younger than I'd like him to be, but the man I'm looking for was all over the place with his age so I'm not sure that's significant.
Sorry for going off on an tangent but it might help to unravel Elizabeth Montgomery and Michael Gibbons.
I've found it's often the only way to move forward!
I have Joseph's family quite well pinned down (although I have my doubts that Mary Ann was actually Joseph's daughter) but I've never managed to find a Michael Montgomery connected with them. Possibly Elizabeth didn't know and gave the first name that came to mind when asked. Michael was not a common name so to have a father and husband both called Michael seems unusual to me.
Michael was not a common name so to have a father and husband both called Michael seems unusual to me.
That's what I thought, though Michael is much more common in Ireland.
That's what I thought, though Michael is much more common in Ireland.
Yes, I think Michael Gibbons's family came from Ireland. The Montgomerys seem to have been in London for several generations with no evidence of an Irish connection.
Just for completeness, I now have the certs I sent for.
Marriage of Elizabeth Gibbings and John Johnson at St Andrew Plaistow 8 Sept 1897 by banns - John Johnson, 20, bachelor, stevedore, address 37 Cleaver Road, father Andrew Johnson, stevedore, and Elizabeth Gibbings, 19, spinster, address 40 Emsworth Road, father Michael Gibbings, dock labourer. Both signed. Witnesses Sarah Ann Nichols, Michael Gibbings
Birth cert of Nellie Johnson - born 29 Oct 1899, 9 Pacific Road West Ham, father John Johnson a dock labourer, mother Elizabeth Johnson formerly Gibbons, informant E. Johnson, mother, of 9 Pacific Road Canning Town. Registered 9 Dec 1899.
No great surprises, except that Gibbons became Gibbings (and Michael signed as such)
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