Help finding a couple of people on the 1939 Register

[James18]

Hi all,

Free access to the 1939 Register on Ancestry ends today, and although I've been able to find most relevant people across my trees (barring serving military or being outside the country), I'm stumped on a couple of people, so wondered if I could ask for some help.

One of these people has been the subject of discussion before, and the other not. Both are long dead.

1) Lucy Horne, also sometimes known as Lucy Louise Horne. Also possibly Lucy Davis (her father's surname). Born Chertsey March 1889 as Lucy Horne, died - I think - Wandsworth March 1959 as Lucy L Horne. I have no DOB for her.

There are some Chertsey electoral rolls for her in the early/mid 1930s, but so far no sign of her on the Register. She was an unmarried domestic servant/housekeeper and so presumably still in service in 1939. I'd imagine she should be somewhere in the Surrey area, but could be further afield. I can't think of a good reason for her not to be on the Register, and I don't think she had any surviving family (that she knew of) who she'd have been with.

2) Peggy Winifred Breeze, also later Horne, Bates and Pearce. Born 29/09/1917 Hampstead as Peggy W Breeze, died December 1959 Bromley as Peggy W Pearce.

Peggy is a very tricky one... she had numerous children by different fathers and had some complicated adoption matters. By 1939 she had at least three sons that I know of, but as all may still be alive (I know at least one is; we've never been able to track the other two) I won't name them. Her parents adopted the son we know about, another son appeared intermittently throughout her life and was the informant on her death certificate, and a third son's whereabouts are unknown after his birth.

She married Cyril E Pearce - as Peggy Horn - in September 1953 Bromley, despite never actually being known as Horn(e). This was the surname of a man she had a brief relationship and one of her sons with, but they never married and she never legally took that name AFAIK.

So, in theory she should be Peggy W Breeze in 1939, but with her anything is possible, and I haven't been able to find her. I do know that in May 1939 she gave birth to a son in Chertsey, Surrey, and was working at a bakery there. So, it is very possible she was still in the Chertsey area at the time of the Register, but of course it's also possible she'd moved elsewhere by then. Unfortunately I have no idea whether any or all of her children would have been with her at the time, but if so their records are likely redacted.

Any help finding these two ladies would be very much appreciated, as I suspect both must be out there somewhere.

[kiterunner]

James, when you say that Lucy was born in March 1889, do you mean that, or that her birth was registered Jan-Mar 1889?

[kiterunner]

There is a Peggy A Pearce (Braze,Horne) born 1917, living in Sunbury-on-Thames UD, Middlesex, on FMP, but I haven't found her on ancestry yet. It doesn't help that the labels of some of the search fields on ancestry seem to be disappearing! Anyway, the images that ancestry have are not as up-to-date as the ones on FMP, so it could be that she is still redacted on ancestry.

Edit - the preview on FMP says "Braze Household" and only lists her, so we can't find her via the name of someone else in the household, but if someone can view the image or full record on FMP it should be possible to get enough info about other people on the page to find the same image on ancestry.

[kiterunner]

Hmm, it seems that FMP is giving me less information on the "preview" than it used to - just the name of an individual person instead of including other people in the household. But when I searched for other name in household Peggy Braze, it came up with Emma and John both born 1872, so this must be the same household on ancestry, with Peggy's record still closed:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61596/tna_r39_0900_0900g_013/11106966?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1939UKRegister%26gss%3dsfs28_ ms_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d 1%26gsfn%3demma%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dbr*ze%26gsln _x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1872%26msbdy_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26u idh%3dvm5&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

So you would need to view it on FMP to see her entry.

[James18]

James, when you say that Lucy was born in March 1889, do you mean that, or that her birth was registered Jan-Mar 1889?
Registered.

Births Mar 1889 (>99%)
Horne Lucy Chertsey 2a 55


Also, Peggy's mother's name was Dorothy Emma Breeze, if that helps. Her address at the time of Peggy's birth (1917) was 1 Grove Villas, something Road (can't read it... Crescent Road maybe?), Shepperton, Middlesex.

Peggy's address at the time of the birth of one of her sons was 13 Pyrcroft Road, Chertsey. This was in May 1939 so only a few months before the Register was taken.

[James18]

Incidentally, is there a way to request redactions to be removed via Ancestry? I know this could be done on FMP and I did successfully get a record opened by submitting some relevant information proving the person had died during the war. There are several records that ought to be open, but I'm only going to contact Ancestry if I can use their own sources as evidence, such as death or probate records. I am not willing to purchase death certificates just to get a record opened.

[kiterunner]

I don't think so, because as I understand it, the images supplied to ancestry include the redactions. But I'll have a look at the info on ancestry to check. Edit - they don't say anything about applying via ancestry.

John and Emma Breeze are Peggy's grandparents, aren't they? So surely "Peggy A Braze" on FMP must be the right person.

[kiterunner]

I haven't read back through the old thread(s) about Lucy yet, but the nearest I can find on the 1939 Register so far is a widow Louisa Horne dob 21 Jan 1887 unpaid household duties with a family called Ward in Merton and Morden UD, Surrey:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61596/tna_r39_1356_1356g_017/14041909?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1939UKRegister%26gss%3dsfs28_ ms_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d 1%26gsfn%3dlouis*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dhorn*%26gs ln_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1887%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2% 26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

I have a few on my tree who I would like to find on the 1939 Register to get their dates of birth, but I can't find them because I don't know their dates of birth!

[James18]

Okay, apparently Peggy's mother Dorothy married George Anderson, and they're on the Register in Hayes, Middlesex. I haven't found this yet; someone just e-mailed me about it.

And yes Kate, it sounds like Peggy A Pearce (Braze,Horne) must surely be her. Shame she is redacted on Ancestry!

[kiterunner]

Have you read my posts about "Peggy A Braze" yet, James?

[James18]

I haven't read back through the old thread(s) about Lucy yet, but the nearest I can find on the 1939 Register so far is a widow Louisa Horne dob 21 Jan 1887 unpaid household duties with a family called Ward in Merton and Morden UD, Surrey:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61596/tna_r39_1356_1356g_017/14041909?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1939UKRegister%26gss%3dsfs28_ ms_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d 1%26gsfn%3dlouis*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dhorn*%26gs ln_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1887%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2% 26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

I have a few on my tree who I would like to find on the 1939 Register to get their dates of birth, but I can't find them because I don't know their dates of birth!
Yeah, I've seen that one and a few other similar matches. I don't think it's her.

As for "Peggy A Braze", yes, I saw your post, but I'm not sure what you mean. Is this a separate entry to the "Peggy A Pearce (Braze,Horne)" you mentioned before? I have the image for that, but it is redacted as you say. If she appears on another record on her own somewhere then I am not sure where you mean, or how you got to see it.

I'll reply to the chap who e-mailed me, though; if he has FMP then it's possible he can look at the Breeze household you found and see some more info on Peggy. She was born in 1917 so presumably her entry should be open by default?

[kiterunner]

Sorry, yes, it's the same entry. And it must be open on FMP or it wouldn't appear in their index.

[James18]

Thanks, Kate. I've replied with the information you have found out regarding Peggy, and sent him a copy of the page from Ancestry for him to look for on FMP (where it won't be redacted).

It's interesting that there are two redacted records below John and Emma Breeze, so I am wondering if one of them is one of Peggy's sons. We've been trying to track them down as we're attempting to trace one on behalf of their half-sisters in America, but no luck so far. :(

[James18]

Kate, this is one I was looking at for Lucy Horne, as I couldn't find a corresponding birth entry for her, but I noticed that there has been some additional information written above her DOB, etc. Do you know what this is for? I've seen it on a few records now.

Ada L Horne, at the top.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61596/tna_r39_1309_1309h_010?pid=13693066&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3Dtry%26db%3D1939UKRegister%26h%3D13 693066&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true

[Merry]

I realise I may have read this thread, but haven't taken any of it in ! Did you need this?

1 Glebeland Gardens , Sunbury-on-Thames U.D., Middlesex

Braze, John 30 Nov 1872 married gardener
Braze, Emma 30 Nov 1872 (yes that's right!) married home duties
Braze (crossed through) Horne Parker, Peggy A 29 Sep 1917 single domestic service
One closed record.

There are some cryptic numbers and stuff in the margin alongside Peggy's entry: 'Ref Med LN N.R. 230 BSA 4.10.51' (the first bit isn't too clear, but from N.R. 230 it is).

[James18]

Thank you, Merry!

What do the numbers mean, then?

[Merry]

No idea! The 4.10.51 is presumably a date and from other records I think it's the date the register was amended rather than an event date.

The handwriting and ink used for this part:

N.R. 230 BSA 4.10.51

is the same as for the surname Horne which looks to be the first amendment of the surname from Braze. The second change would therefore be to Parker.

[James18]

That's certainly her, although I've no idea where Parker came from. First time I've heard that. Knowing what I do of her, though, I'm not surprised. She seemed to have gone through names like they were going out of fashion. AFAIK she only actually married once - to Cyril Pearce - so I wonder when and why she opted for Parker. One of her sons had the name Bates at one point, even though his father's name was supposedly John Barry.

AFAIK, none of her children's birth certificates gave the father's name.

[Merry]

I'm being chastised for not following the plot in Midsomer Murders, which must explain why I typed Parker, twice, when the entry says Pearce!! lolol

I've checked it three times now.

[kiterunner]

Kate, this is one I was looking at for Lucy Horne, as I couldn't find a corresponding birth entry for her, but I noticed that there has been some additional information written above her DOB, etc. Do you know what this is for? I've seen it on a few records now.

Ada L Horne, at the top.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61596/tna_r39_1309_1309h_010?pid=13693066&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3Dtry%26db%3D1939UKRegister%26h%3D13 693066&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true

Looks like a correction of her DOB and presumably the date it was corrected.

[kiterunner]

There is an Ada L A Horne death Apr-Jun 1958 Surrey age 79 which would fit with the corrected DOB.