Henry John Syred - pawnbroker

[tenterfieldjulie]

This is a brief summary of what I have found from original records -

Henry John Syred is baptised at Alverstoke,(Gosport) Hampshire, 19/10/1806, his parents John and Elizabeth.

Their first two children were born at Portsea: Elizabeth Jane 1828, Eliza 1829; then at Portsmouth: Henry 1831, Horatio 1834 and Emma Ruth (known as Ruth) in 1838.

In the 1851 Census, they are living in Tranmere, Cheshire, he says born Gosport, Hants and his wife Elizabeth is from Devonport, Devon. Occupation pawnbroker. Henry John 44; Elizabeth 45; Elizabeth J Dring (daughter) 23; Horatio 16; Ruth 12.

In the 1861 Census the family are living at West Derby, Lancashire.

In 1867 Elizabeth dies at West Derby aged 62.

In 1868 Henry marries Annie Maria Marnell in Liverpool. He states his father is John (deceased) I read occupation as a seedsman?

Henry dies 13/1/1876 and is buried at St Michaels, Garston on the 15th.

National probate states in his will that he is a gentleman of Waterloo near Liverpool.
His effects are originally stated to be 12,000 GBP and then 14,000.

Help please –
I would like to find the marriage of Henry John Syred and Elizabeth. Their first child is born at Portsea 1828.
An ancestry tree named her as Elizabeth Meddor, but there is no further information. From the Census we know she was born C1806 at Devonport in Devon.

I found at some stage an 1841 Census, which included Henry John and Ruth and some other people, but not Elizabeth or the two older girls, now I can’t find it. I did find Henry and Horatio at a school in Halton in Cheshire. It could be in Cheshire or Liverpool I think!!

I also thought I saw an 1871 Census which included Henry John and Annie Maria, but I dismissed it, not realising he had remarried, now I can’t find it either!!:o

An ancestry tree also names Henry John’s parents as John and Elizabeth Hayward, but I have not found this marriage, possibly in Hampshire C1805 or earlier.

Many thanks Julie.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Well I think I might have sort of found an answer on Family search:

On 4/9/1826 at Alverstoke, Southampton, Hants

Elizabeth Medder married Henry John Sears Film 1596261 p 103 No 308

or

married Henry John Liars (even better!) Film 918904.

Can anyone please view the image and see if it could be Syred?

[kiterunner]

The online GRO birth index has Emma Ruth Syred's MMN as Medder for that 1838 birth registration, Julie.

[kiterunner]

If only you'd posted before I went to our local Family History Centre this morning, Julie!

Anyway, there is an image on FMP but I haven't got a sub to view it at the moment. He is transcribed as Siars for that one. Hopefully someone can easily look at that image and see what it says.

[Merry]

Marriage at Alverstoke in the County of Southampton in the year 1826:

Henry John Siar (sic) of this Parish and Elizabeth Medder of this Parish were married in this Church by Banns with Consent of _________this fourth Day of September in the Year One thousand eight hundred and twenty-six.
By me William James Porter, Off. Minr.
This Marriage was solemnised between us Henry John Siars (sig) Elizabeth Medder (sig)
In the Presence of Benjamin Wheeler (sig) Ann Horly (?) (sig)

[Merry]

Just by chance I happened to accidentally shift the image slightly as I went in to close it down. This revealed the right margin which was hidden under FMP's customer satisfaction survey :mad:

The right margin had a little note:

Alias Syred vide b. 19 Oct 1806

That bit has a line ruled under it and then there's a bit more. I'm not sure what it says! Maybe the next person with a sub can do that part? :D

[Mary from Italy]

The right margin had a little note:

Alias Syred vide b. 19 Oct 1806

That bit has a line ruled under it and then there's a bit more. I'm not sure what it says! Maybe the next person with a sub can do that part? :D

Alias Syred vide bap 19 Oct 1806

There's just the curate's signature under the line. H A Beck?

The matching baptism is the one Julie's already found.

[Mary from Italy]

St Mary's, Portsea, Hants
7/1/1806:
John Syred, bachelor and Elizabeth Hayward, spinster, both OTP, married by banns.
John signed and Elizabeth made her mark.
Witnesses: Rich'd Gudge and Sarah Gudge

[Mary from Italy]

I also thought I saw an 1871 Census which included Henry John and Annie Maria, but I dismissed it, not realising he had remarried, now I can’t find it either!!:o



You'll find them in Garston, transcribed as Syrett on Ancestry.

[Mary from Italy]

I found at some stage an 1841 Census, which included Henry John and Ruth and some other people, but not Elizabeth or the two older girls, now I can’t find it.


They're in Liverpool, transcribed as Lynds by Ancestry.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Oh ladies you are wonderful.

I have a headache like you won't believe, I left the sunroom door ajar and the cats woke me after 5 hours sleep, however, I had to check in here and I am so delighted.

Thanks Kate, Merry and Mary, when I get it all together for my friends, they are going to be might chuffed. Telling them of all your endeavours will add to their delight and I know they will want to express their thanks to you for what you have found.

Off to bed again for a little while. Anzac Day here and my brother is marching, so I hope I wake in time to stroll down the hill. Many thanks again.

Cheers. Julie

[tenterfieldjulie]

I have been looking at the Syrad family in Hampshire, especially around Portsmouth.
I found the burial of John 8/4/1835 Alverstoke and it noted his abode as Forton.
I also noted Hannah dau of William 30/1/1834 Alverstoke aged 69 abode Forton.
I would presume that she is John's unmarried sister. I thought it unusual to note that someone was a daughter at 69.
I found two children baptised in 1787, parents William and Martha, Alverstoke and I found John baptised at Titchfield in Hants in 1780, parents William and Martha.
I then found another 6 children of the same age group, marrying and or having children in that area.
With a fairly unusual name like Syred from that area, would it be fairly likely they are from the same family?
There is a marriage 7/7/1768 of William Syried and Martha Winterton at Windlesham in Surrey. Would it be likely they are the parents. I normally wouldn't think this way, but seeing how Henry John went from Hampshire to Cheshire and then to Lancashire, I think they could be fairly itinerant.
Another thought is as Henry John was a pawnbroker, does anyone know whether they have to be licensed and would those records be accessible?
I also wondered about purchasing his will from Lancashire. I was wondering where they are available?
Thanks. Julie

[ElizabethHerts]

Julie, I think you have FMP?

It's worth looking at the newspapers:

Small entry about Henry John Syred's boots being stolen!
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000081%2f18680903%2f005

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000197%2f18560404%2f010
Appointment of Henry John Syred as a select vestryman.

A case tried before the Queen's Bench involving Henry John Syred (relevant to pawnbrokers):
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0001293%2f18580605%2f048

[ElizabethHerts]

Death notice for Elizabeth Syred in the Hampshire Telegraph:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000069%2f18671123%2f017

Death of Henry John Syred's grandson:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000069%2f18640917%2f015

Partnership dissolved (Henry John Syred and Henry Syred) 1856:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000082%2f18560809%2f037

There are quite a few others, Julie. Well worth having a look.

[kiterunner]

Another thought is as Henry John was a pawnbroker, does anyone know whether they have to be licensed and would those records be accessible?
I also wondered about purchasing his will from Lancashire. I was wondering where they are available?


As Henry John died in 1876, you would need to order his will via the national probate site:

https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Kate, I think his will could be interesting if he has an inventory as it was initially undervalued..

Thanks Liza. They looke really interesting. I let my FMP sub lapse as I didn't have the time or energy before I went OS in 2017. I will keep my eye out for getting a good deal. I see that they have they Devonport records too, which I will need to locate Elizabeth Medder/s.

[kiterunner]

You won't get an inventory with the will, Julie.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Oh that is a shame.

Originally the Probate says 3/5/1876. Effects under 12,000.

Resworn March 1877. 14,000.

What would you think that would mean Kate?

Maybe the new wife disputed the valuation?

[kiterunner]

I think it means that whoever calculated the original total missed something out which later came to light.

[ElizabethHerts]

Elizabeth Medder baptised 29 September 1805 at Stoke Damerel, Devonshire
Parents: John and Elizabeth Medder

The family moved to Portsea. There was a lot of coming and going between Devonport and Portsea.

Siblings:
John born 8 March 1807, baptised 22 Mar 1807 Stoke Damerel, probably burial 15 November 1835 aged 28, St Mary Portsea
Henry Lowery born 4 February 1809, baptised 5 March 1809 Stoke Damerel
Matilda baptised 3 February 1811 St John Portsea
Sarah baptised 19 November 1813 St John Portsea

Father John burial: 16 March 1825 St Mary Portsea

[ElizabethHerts]

Henry was in Liverpool by 1834 and married Mary Lund Roberts by Licence.

He was a pawnbroker!

He was in partnership with Henry John Syred but the partnership was dissolved in 1842.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000090%2f18421231%2f015

[ElizabethHerts]

Henry Lowery Medder died in 1848. Here is his probate:

First name(s) Henry Lowery
Last name Medder
Year 1848
Date 01 Jul 1848
Occupation Pawnbroker
Place Liverpool
Deanery -
Archdeaconry Chester
County Cheshire, Lancashire
Country England
Archive Lancashire Archives
Archive reference 1186B/55
Source Lancashire Archives Probate Index Archdeaconry of Chester (supra wills 1800-1858)
Document ordering link https://lccsecure.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/questionnaires/runQuestionnaire.asp?qid=576248

[ElizabethHerts]

Ooh, this one is interesting:

First name(s) John
Last name Medder
Year 1857
Date 15 Dec 1857
Occupation Shoemaker
Place Portsea Hampshire
Deanery -
Archdeaconry Chester
County Cheshire, Lancashire
Country England
Archive Lancashire Archives
Archive reference 1316B/63
Source Lancashire Archives Probate Index Archdeaconry of Chester (supra wills 1800-1858)
Document ordering link https://lccsecure.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/questionnaires/runQuestionnaire.asp?qid=576248

John Madder from Portsea, 1857.

It needs investigating as it's odd it is listed in Lancashire.

[ElizabethHerts]

There were cordwainers/shoemakers in the Medder family:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5111/40611_311447-00627?pid=526156&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3Dgmj3791%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3DCanturburyP rerogativeCourt%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsln%3DMedder%2 6gsln_x%3DNN_NS%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3D9p3%26pcat%3D3 6%26fh%3D1%26h%3D526156%26recoff%3D11%26ml_rpos%3D 2&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=gmj3791&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

I haven't investigated yet, but this might be Elizabeth's grandfather.

[ElizabethHerts]

I need to sort out the Johns:

First name(s) John Muspratt
Last name Medder
Birth year 1783
Birth date ? ? 1783
Baptism year 1783
Baptism date 23 Feb 1783
Denomination Anglican
Place Stoke Damerel
Father's first name(s) John
Mother's first name(s) Elizabeth
Mother's last name -
County Devon
Country England
Archive reference 166/7/a
Archive event Composite registers
Page 63
Archive Plymouth & West Devon Record Office

[ElizabethHerts]

Mary Lund Medder was buried 31 July 1836 at St George, Everton, Lancashire. She was just 22 years old.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=gmj3798&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=LiverpoolCoEBurials&gss=angs-d&new=1&msT=1&gsln=Medder&gsln_x=NN_NS&MSAV=1&uidh=9p3&rank=1&pcat=34&fh=0&h=2437286&recoff=&ml_rpos=1

[tenterfieldjulie]

Many thanks Liza. I had a look on Ancestry this afternoon and it gets very confusing as John Medder, father and son, were cordwainers/shoemakers and both married Elizabeth.

Actually John Medder married Elizabeth Thornton 1804 at East Stonehouse;
John Meader married Elizabeth Osman 1805 at Stoke Dameral.
I think it is the 2nd because that is where they seemed to be.

There are apprentice indentures from 1784 to 1793 Stoke Damerel which I think is the father and then 1805 Plymouth Dock shoemaker which I think is the son.

There is a baptism John Muspratt Medder 22/2/1783 and Mary Ann Medder 5/6/1791 at Stoke Damerel.

A Canterbury Will 1826-1828 Piece 1713 John Medder Stock Damerel cordwainer leaves his cordwainer utensils to his son Thomas and an amount to his daughter Mary Ann. He leaves his property in trust to his wife Elizabeth and after her death the residue to all his children, which I think would mean that there are more than the two named.
I think this is the senior John.

In 1851 wife Elizabeth (Osman) is living as a lodger in Portsea - an annuitant I think it reads from her son. She dies later in that year. This is wife of junior John.

I think the will you found is the 2nd John.

[ElizabethHerts]

I had found the marriages, Julie. If you look at the 1805 marriage John Meader is a drummer in the Royal Marines.

[tenterfieldjulie]

So the first marriage 1804 at East Stonehouse to Elizabeth Thornton is more likely.
I looked at my notes and it looks John Jnr died 6/3/1825 in Portsea, Hampshire and John Snr 19/5/1826 in Stoke Damerel.
I think I looked at Lancashire wills in Manchester. Wish I could have a look lol
I looked at some of the ancestry trees and they say that John Senior married an Elizabeth Moon, but the trees are private, so I couldn't view them.

[ElizabethHerts]

From the baptisms of Henry John Syred's children he was a poulterer on some and a shoemaker on others!

I wonder if he got an offer from Elizabeth's brother Henry Lowery Medder to join him in Liverpool?

[tenterfieldjulie]

I just had a look at Family Search and there is a marriage in 1780 John Medder to Elizabeth Moone the image is on FMP.
There are entries of births at Stoke Damerel of 8 children so they are "all" the children in his will .. including the two named in the will and Thomas is the youngest son. It is interesting that the second name of the sons include Muspratt, Courtis, Brown and Susanna Moon. I would imagine they are the names of ancestors.

[tenterfieldjulie]

I thought it was interesting looking at the pawnbrokers in the family - Elizabeth Syred nee Medder - her husband, Henry John Syred; her brother, Henry Lowrey Medder and her uncle, Samuel Courtis Medder, (father's brother,) were all pawnbrokers. They all went from Stoke Damerel to Liverpool, but kept their connections down south. They all left wills in Lancashire.