Looking for help to find the right ancestors

[Qwackers]

Hi , I did with some help find my great great grandmother on my fathers side of the family . We found Jane Hale who was born in Ormskirk In 1825. /26 Mother Esther father William Hale . Now I think that her mothers maiden name was chamberlain , how do I make sure that this is the right person before I continue my search . As I can't find the marriage in Ormskirk ,although if she is a chamberlain I can find a birth around 1798 in scarisbrick which isn't far from Ormskirk parents Thomas and Jane . So any help in finding the right mothers maiden name would be gratefully received thanks qwackers

[Merry]

I found Esther in 1851 and her youngest child was John b abt 1837. This is presumably his birth reg:

HALE, JOHN mmn ESTHER CHAMBERLANE

GRO Reference: 1837 S Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 21 Page 371

So, mother's whole name rather than maiden name!!

What is your source for Esther's maiden name? Presumably not just that you "thought it"!!! :D

[Merry]

Where did you look for the marriage? Here it is on Lancs OPC!

Marriage: 17 May 1821 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
William Hale - (X), This Parish
Esther Chamberlane - (X), This Parish
Witness: Henry Stephenson; George Wignall
Married by Banns by: Charles Forshaw, Curate
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1827, Page 136, Entry 408
Source: LDS Film 1849664

[kiterunner]

On that 1851 census, Esther is age 50, born Ormskirk, just so we have that info to hand.

[kiterunner]

And in 1861 she is age 58, born Ormskirk.

Hmm, then Lancashire OPC has the marriage dated 30 Jul 1866 at St Peter & St Paul, Ormskirk, of Richard Pye, 40, labourer, widower, of Ormskirk, and Esther Hale, 50, widow, of Ormskirk, her father being Thomas Chamberlain, deceased. If it's her (and I would think so, given MMN Chamberlain), she had knocked quite a few years off her age! Father's name fits with that Scarisbrick baptism.

[Qwackers]

Hi , that's the problem , I looked for a marriage for William hale hopefully finding whom he married . I looked on the parish records of Ormskirk , trying to cross ref the name etc .. I just wanted to be sure that I am following the right person in Esther chamberlane . Wouldn't want to get it wrong also I m still trying to trace Williams tree , don't know if he was born in the area or not ? Have you any idea ? Thanks

[kiterunner]

Is this them in 1871? Richard a lot older than on that transcription; Esther back to approx her right age:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/LANRG10_3879_3880-0283/16328249?backurl=https%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co. uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Mill Street, Ormskirk
Richard Pye Head Mar 67 Labourer Lancs Lathom
Esther Pye Wife Mar 71 Ormskirk
John Pye Son Unm 26 Butcher Do Do.

[Qwackers]

I have got the 1841 census , with children William age 6 john age 3 Jane age 15 and Sam age 16 .thanks

[kiterunner]

As for checking whether Esther Chamberlain is the right person, can you give us info on where Jane Hale fits in to your tree so we can check that bit? If you have the right Jane, then it looks as though Esther Chamberlain is right.

Edit - found the old thread which mentions Jane Hale:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=20749&highlight=hale

According to that thread, James Robinson married Jane Hale in 1850 at Our Lady & St Nicholas & St Anne, Liverpool, and Jane was born about 1824 Ormskirk. We just need to check her details on that marriage record to make sure it's the same Jane as the one you found.

[kiterunner]

The image for the Richard Pye / Esther Hale marriage is on ancestry and the ages are indeed given as 40 and 50, but I think both ages may have been way out.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2576/40437_280528__0001-00039/10422943?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlacanshireparishmarriage%26so %3d2%26pcat%3d34%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dric*%26g sfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dpye%26gsln_x%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1 %26msgdy%3d1867%26msgdy_x%3d1%26msgdp%3d5%26cpxt%3 d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh% 3dvm5%26MSV%3d1&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[Merry]

Hi , that's the problem , I looked for a marriage for William hale hopefully finding whom he married . I looked on the parish records of Ormskirk , trying to cross ref the name etc .. I just wanted to be sure that I am following the right person in Esther chamberlane . Wouldn't want to get it wrong also I m still trying to trace Williams tree , don't know if he was born in the area or not ? Have you any idea ? Thanks

Did you read my posts?

Kate, here is a post of yours from another thread:

www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showpost.php?p=282097&postcount=5

The Robinsons are with Esther on either 1851 or 1861 (forgotten now!)

[kiterunner]

Here is the image of the James Robinson / Jane Hale marriage on ancestry:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2197/englb5617_283-nic-3-41_m_00091/4751255?backurl=https%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

11 Nov 1850. Jane's residence Rose Hill, father William Hale, weaver. Witnesses Samuel Hale and Mary Hale.

William Hale was a weaver on the 1841 census, so it all fits.

D'oh - of course it is the right family, since James and Jane are with Esther on the 1851 census!!!
(edit - thanks, Merry, I know all that now!)

[kiterunner]

So, Esther Chamberlain was baptised 21 Oct 1798 at Ormskirk, daughter of Thomas and Jane of Scarisbrick. There are also Edward 15 Mar 1801, and John 9 Jun 1805, sons of Thomas and Jane Chamberlain, but abode is Ormskirk on those two, which might explain why Esther's birthplace is Ormskirk on the censuses, if her family moved there when she was very young.

Thomas Chamberlain married Jane Bailey 22 Aug 1798 at Ormskirk.

[Qwackers]

Yes scarisbrick is part of ormskirk and is a rural area . Rural area not too far away so that would fit . Can we now find the parents of William Hale was he also born in Ormskirk or surrounding areas it would be interesting to find that out .thanks for all your help

[kiterunner]

All we have about William Hale's birthplace is from the 1841 census, which is just "Yes" for born in Lancashire. I assume his death is the one which was registered Jul-Sep 1849 Ormskirk, age 54. Which would mean he was born about 1795.

There are a few William Hale baptisms in Lancashire around 1795, but not sure which one is him.

[Qwackers]

Hi , thanks I'll see which one seems to fit around the date in the area . If not look further afield . Thanks

[Qwackers]

Hi , Kiterunner , when you said the residence of Jane Hale dips Rose hill in 1850 . IS it in the district of Ormskirk or does it not say ? Thanks

[kiterunner]

I don't know what you mean about "dips"? But as they got married at St Nicholas, Liverpool, Rose Hill should be in that parish. My Liverpool A-Z shows Rose Hill in central Liverpool, close to St Anne Street and just north of John Moores University. Close to Lime Street railway station.

[Merry]

It doesn't say, but normally at least one party to the marriage would have to give an address in the parish the church represented, so in this case both bride and groom say Rose Hill for their address, so Rose Hill should be in the parish of St Nicholas in Liverpool.

EDIT - snap Kate!

[Qwackers]

Thanks I will look up on maps to see if there is a place named rose hill .

[Qwackers]

Hi. There is a place named rosehill in Liverpool it isn't too far away from the docks .

[Merry]

Hi. There is a place named rosehill in Liverpool it isn't too far away from the docks .

Yes, the one Kite mentioned!

[kiterunner]

As I said, it is shown on my Liverpool A - Z as a street near to St Anne Street.

[Qwackers]

Hi , did you find any William hale' s born in Ormskirk in 1795 ? It's a shot in the dark , but I found a William Hale born in 1895 , in the Liverpool area parents isacc and Catherine in the parish our lady st Nicholas and st Anne . Jane hale got married to James robinson at that church . It is only a shot . As Maybe I will not be able to trace down his line . But you have a better idea than I . Thanks

[kiterunner]

I didn't, but I'm wondering whether there are some Ormskirk area baptisms from that time which aren't online yet? Because I have a few ancestors from there whose baptisms I haven't found.

[Qwackers]

Yes you may be right but there are lots of different areas of Ormskirk which could have church records I've looked at Halsall which is near Ormskirk . I'll see what other churches there are in the area thanks

[Qwackers]

There are parish records for Aughton ,if your looking at the Ormskirk area

[kiterunner]

Those are transcribed on Lancashire OPC already, though.

[Qwackers]

I should imagine that not all transcriptions are on line . As yet . Would the records not be held on micro fiche at the library ? In Ormskirk

[kiterunner]

I expect so.

[Qwackers]

I will e.mail the library and see what records they hold ., and will let you know .

[Qwackers]

Hi , was looking at the marriage of Samuel Hale in Ormskirk in 1851 , Grooms father William . We assume that is death was the one mentioned in 1849 . Could it be that William hale was still alive at that point ? Thanks

[Merry]

Samuel Hale b abt 1828 Ormskirk is with his wife Ellen and three sons (checked birth registrations and mmn is Harrison) in 1861 in St Helens. Tracing him back to 1851 he is with his widowed mother Esther Hale aged 50 b Ormskirk. So that's Esther Chamberlain isn't it?

[Qwackers]

Hi , yes that's correct , but Samuel got married in 1851 , and on parish records it' states grooms father William . So it looks like he attended the wedding as he is mentioned . Unless parish record is incorrect . But previously we have assumed he has died around 1849 .

[Merry]

So it looks like he attended the wedding as he is mentioned . Unless parish record is incorrect . But previously we have assumed he has died around 1849 .

Just because a father is named on a marriage cert doesn't mean he was at the wedding! It was a legal requirement that a father's details were taken and recorded. So his name being on the certificate doesn't mean he was there. Family members did not routinely attend weddings in those days as they do today.

It was very common for information to be taken about the father without asking if they were dead or alive too. So a marriage certificate that suggests the father is alive isn't exactly incorrect, it's just not complete information. There is no mention in the column headings of the requirement to state if the father is deceased.

It's more likely it's correct that Esther was a widow in 1851 (have you looked for her husband staying somewhere else and found any possible matches?).

[Merry]

Had you looked at the burial for William in 1849?

Burial: 5 Aug 1849 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
William Hale -
Age: 54 yrs
Abode: Ormskirk
Notes: Roman Catholic
Register: Burials 1846 - 1852, Page 266, Entry 2126
Source: LDS Film 1849664

He was Catholic. This might explain why you can't find a suitable baptism in the area. Transcripts of St Ann's Ormskirk RC church records are held at the Lancashire Archives, but don't seem to be on Lancs OPC.

[Qwackers]

Hi , yes I understand more clearly now , perhaps I will have to visit the records office in Preston . And have a look to see if I can find him Thanks for your help once again ??

[Qwackers]

Hi Merry , I'm still searching for the birth of William Hale around 1795 ormskirk area , last time I looked you had found a few William hales in the area ,but couldn't pin point which one was correct .Is there any other way to find more info ? Thanks

[Merry]

Have you eliminated the records for St Ann's Ormskirk RC church?

[Qwackers]

No , but they are not online ,on ancestry ,family search Etc . Looking at the records ,they may be held in Preston for St Annes Catholic Church . I have emailed them to see if they hold the records , will let you know . If so I may have to make a trip . Thanks

[Merry]

We already know they not online, but are at Preston! (posts of May last year)…

Here's the page from the Lancashire Archives collections:

https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/media/67389/O.pdf

[Qwackers]

Hi , I also was searching the Ormskirk online parish clerks , around 1800 s to see if maybe William Hale had siblings ,I found a few births from 1800s onwards a john James Elizabeth and Ann . Parents William and Mary hale ? What are your thoughts on that ? Or do you think because they were catholic they would have been baptised at st Annes Catholic Church ?

[Merry]

All we know from the paper trail so far is that your William said he was born in Lancashire (1841 census) and that he was buried as a Catholic. If he was raised as a Catholic he would still have married in the C of E because Catholic marriages were illegal from 1754 to 1837.

With regard to the children of William and Mary Hale - were all the baptisms you found after 1802? If so, then this is probably the marriage of that William and Mary (well after the birth of your William):

Marriage: 6 Dec 1802 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
William Hale - this parish
Mary Burrows - (X), this parish
Witness: Richard Woosey; John Hankin
Married by Banns by: Will Naylor Minister of Altcar
Register: Marriages 1784 - 1812, Page 190, Entry 762
Source: LDS Film 1849664

There's a bap for a Mary Burrows in Ormskirk in 1782 - if that's the same Mary Burrows, she is too young to be the mother of William Hale (b 1795).

I just think you need to look at the RC baptisms for St Anne's.

[Merry]

As your William was buried at St Peter and St Paul Ormskirk I thought it might be helpful to record other RC Hale burials at the same church. I covered 1794 to 1850:

Burial: 3 Oct 1824 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancs.
Mary Hale -
Age: 4
Abode: Ormskirk
Notes: R Catholic
Register: Burials 1813 - 1825, Page 270, Entry 2155
Source: LDS Film 1849664

Burial: 15 Oct 1824 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancs.
Samuel Hale -
Age: 33 yrs
Abode: Ormskirk
Notes: R Catholic
Register: Burials 1813 - 1825, Page 271, Entry 2162
Source: LDS Film 1849664

Burial: 25 Dec 1828 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancs.
Sarah Hale -
Age: 2
Abode: Ormskirk
Notes: Roman Catholic
Register: Burials 1825 - 1843, Page 87, Entry 628
Source: LDS Film 1849664

Burial: 3 Jun 1830 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancs.
William Hale -
Age: 2
Abode: Ormskirk
Notes: Roman Catholic
Register: Burials 1825 - 1843, Page 136, Entry 990
Source: LDS Film 1849664

Burial: 31 Dec 1831 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancs.
William Hale -
Age: 6 ms
Abode: Ormskirk
Notes: Roman Catholic
Register: Burials 1825 - 1843, Page 178, Entry 1330
Source: LDS Film 1849664

Burial: 10 Jun 1837 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancs.
Thomas Hale -
Age: 8 yrs
Abode: Ormskirk
Notes: Roman Catholic
Register: Burials 1825 - 1843, Page 361, Entry 1168
Source: LDS Film 1849664

Burial: 6 Feb 1838 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancs.
Samuel Hale -
Age: 14 ms
Abode: Ormskirk
Notes: Roman Catholic
Register: Burials 1825 - 1843, Page 383, Entry 1338
Source: LDS Film 1849664

Burial: 6 Jul 1840 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancs.
Mary Hale -
Age: 77 yrs
Abode: Ormskirk
Notes: Roman Catholic
Register: Burials 1825 - 1843, Page 462, Entry 1906
Source: LDS Film 1849664

Burial: 9 Jan 1841 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancs.
Charles Hale -
Age: Infant
Abode: Ormskirk
Notes: Roman Catholic
Register: Burials 1825 - 1843, Page 482, Entry 1063
Source: LDS Film 1849664

Burial: 19 Nov 1842 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancs.
Ellen Hale -
Age: 11 yrs
Abode: Ormskirk
Notes: Roman Catholic
Register: Burials 1825 - 1843, Page 547, Entry 1981
Source: LDS Film 1849664

Burial: 26 Aug 1850 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Ellen Hale -
Age: 1 yr
Abode: Ormskirk
Notes: Roman Catholic
Register: Burials 1846 - 1852, Page 308, Entry 2464
Source: LDS Film 1849664

After 1852 the burial register doesn't mention anyone being Catholic.

I wondered how much of a long shot it might be that Samuel Hale was a brother of your William (William and Esther seem to have named a son Samuel, aged 16 in 1841)? Also, this might be Samuel's marriage:

Marriage: 8 Jun 1824 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Samuel Hale - (X), This Parish
Mary Huyton - (X), This Parish
Witness: Elizabeth Pew, (X); George Wignall
Married by Banns by: George Whitehead Bower, Curate
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1827, Page 209, Entry 625
Source: LDS Film 1849664

In which case he only lived for a few months after the marriage.

Many of those child burials could be children of your William. Charles buried 1841 definitely is, as his birth reg has mmn Chamberlane.

So, now you might want to look for baptisms for William and Samuel at St Anne's plus baptisms for the children of your William and Esther.

Mary Hale, bur 1840, could be the mother of your William and possibly also Samuel! Should you find records that link these people, Mary's death certificate should give the name of her husband if that was known to the informant.

[Qwackers]

Hi , I am now going going to try and find a day when I can go to look at the records . I may beable to glean a lot more info . I was looking around at church records , not far away from Ormskirk .just to see if the name Hale was prevelent. And I found quite a few Hales in the church records of aughton , which is approx two miles away . Also saw a marriage of a Henry hale to Margeret Jennys in 1864 in Halsall which isn't far away . It could be that I'm clutching at straws to find the link , but at least , the name could be from around those areas .

[Qwackers]

Hi , just wondering if William Hale born in 1780 in aughton which is near Ormskirk could be Williams father ?

[Merry]

Have you found a likely baptism for your William now then? I didn't know we knew his father's name. Did you get to search the RC records?

If you know his father is William, I would doubt someone born in 1780 would be the father of a son born 1795. However this William born 1780 might well be the one who married in 1802 to Mary Burrows.

[Qwackers]

Hi , found the birth of mary burrows in 1872 .in Ormskirk . It is possible that she married William hale who was born in aughton .

[Qwackers]

There are two burials in 1840 Ann hale age 77 Ann hale age 49 Ormskirk online Parish clerks

[Qwackers]

Sorry that should have been Mary Hale who is 77 , who is a Roman Catholic . Could this be Williams mother as you said ?

[Merry]

Hi , found the birth of mary burrows in 1872 .in Ormskirk . It is possible that she married William hale who was born in aughton .

Possibly (assuming you mean 1782!), but the marriage in 1802 is a long time after the birth of your William, so I doubt they are the right couple for you. You need to be looking at those Catholic records for your William's baptism before you start guessing at the next generation.


Sorry that should have been Mary Hale who is 77 , who is a Roman Catholic . Could this be Williams mother as you said ?

She could be, but you need to find William's baptism to know his parents names and if you find his baptism, also record any siblings in order to establish the most likely marriage for his parents (I would suggest you make a list of all the Hale records you come across at St Anne's and make a note of what dates you covered).

If Mary who died in 1840 does turn out to be your William's mother, she isn't likely to be Mary Burrows born 1782 as her age at death would suggest a birth in the 1760s.

For the time being I would put the Hale to Burrows marriage on the back burner and see what info you can pick up in the Catholic registers. If it turns out William's baptism isn't there you will have to think again, but you need to
work your way through those records first.

[Qwackers]

Thanks .

[Qwackers]

Hi , Merry , I'm sorry I still haven't been able to get to the records office to look on the microfiche . But I did manage to find a marriage , between a Mary Wilson and and William Hale on the 1/Aug /1784 . At st Michaels in Aughton , I know it's a shot in the dark whilst I am looking for William Hales mother the other problem is st Michaels is a Anglican Church . The church is approx 3 miles from Ormskirk . And there seems to be a few families of Hales in that area . There is a Samuels marriage but it is in the 1850 s which is earlier than we wanted . Anyway you can give me your thoughts on that . Thanks

[Qwackers]

Lancashire records office told me that they don't have the original records , so I am wondering were they are actually held .? They could be held in Kew , like a lot of records , I don't know where they were stored etc when they were removed from the church ? Have you any ideas ? Thanks

[Merry]

Hi , Merry , I'm sorry I still haven't been able to get to the records office to look on the microfiche . But I did manage to find a marriage , between a Mary Wilson and and William Hale on the 1/Aug /1784 . At st Michaels in Aughton , I know it's a shot in the dark whilst I am looking for William Hales mother the other problem is st Michaels is a Anglican Church . The church is approx 3 miles from Ormskirk . And there seems to be a few families of Hales in that area . There is a Samuels marriage but it is in the 1850 s which is earlier than we wanted . Anyway you can give me your thoughts on that . Thanks

With regard to the marriage at St Michael's Aughton - as I said in post #43, Catholic marriages were illegal from 1754 to 1837, so it's not a 'problem' to find marriages of Catholic people in an Anglican church. What is a problem is that you don't know who you are looking for!

I don't understand your comment about Samuels.

Lancashire records office told me that they don't have the original records , so I am wondering were they are actually held .? They could be held in Kew , like a lot of records , I don't know where they were stored etc when they were removed from the church ? Have you any ideas ? Thanks

So Lancashire Record office say they no longer have these microfilm numbers?

Copies of Original Registers for St Anne, Ormskirk, Roman Catholic

Baptisms
1736-1836 held by Lancashire Record Office DDX 241/26 - Microfilm
1862-1941 held by Lancashire Record Office MF 9/127 - Microfilm

Marriages
1784-1845 held by Lancashire Record Office DDX 241/26 - Microfilm < some of these marriages may be illegal!
1866-1941 held by Lancashire Record Office MF 9/127 - Microfilm

Burials
1750-1792 held by Lancashire Record Office DDX 241/26 - Microfilm

If you didn't approach them with the film numbers before, I would ask again.

[Qwackers]

Merry , You said in a earlier post that Mary Hale buried 1840 in Ormskirk , could be Williams mother , and that maybe Samual could be Williams brother . So that's why I was searching for those people . I didn't say that the record office didn't hold the microfiche . As they have the ones you have mentioned They don't have the original records , I was asking if you had any idea where they were kept . I did say I hadn't had the chance to go to Preston as it's out of the way for me . So I was trying another way to find the mother of William . As I can't go at present through also family illness .

[Qwackers]

Hi , Rang up the records office in Lancashire ,to see if I could get copies of death from prior 1837 and they have told me they haven't got the records to do the copies . So it looks like I can't go any further without going to the centre and search .

[Qwackers]

I am looking , for the birth of William Hale around 1895 , but if I can't him , I was searching for his parents . So I know who I am looking for . But as I Have said , if I can't get there to go through the films in Preston . I can't go any further .

[Merry]

Sorry, I misread your comment about the records at Lancs RO.

I don't know where the original records are kept, but the chances are you wouldn't be allowed to look at them when there is microfilm available.

Your only other option would be to pay someone to do the research for you at Lancs RO.

[Merry]

Hi , Rang up the records office in Lancashire ,to see if I could get copies of death from prior 1837 and they have told me they haven't got the records to do the copies . So it looks like I can't go any further without going to the centre and search .

They would have burial records from before 1837, not certificates.

[Qwackers]

Hi , yes I have asked someone about the price for a search and it is a ridiculous price not only do I have to pay them by the hour they want other incidentals , petrol etc . It is a business , so I can see why they charge . But I will try to make time , as I need to establish William 's Birth . But thanks anyway

[Qwackers]

Hi , I was wondering if you have any idea where either Jane Bailey or Thomas chamberlain were born . Esther's mother and father ? Thanks

[Merry]

To save reading back, these people.

So, Esther Chamberlain was baptised 21 Oct 1798 at Ormskirk, daughter of Thomas and Jane of Scarisbrick. There are also Edward 15 Mar 1801, and John 9 Jun 1805, sons of Thomas and Jane Chamberlain, but abode is Ormskirk on those two, which might explain why Esther's birthplace is Ormskirk on the censuses, if her family moved there when she was very young.

Thomas Chamberlain married Jane Bailey 22 Aug 1798 at Ormskirk.

Have you got their burials?

[Qwackers]

I'm sorry , no I haven't .

[Merry]

So did the three children stay in the same area or did any of them move to a different place? (might help with the parents burials)

[Qwackers]

Yes his daughter Esther stayed around the same area , I think is son Edward died age 15 . I have found a few deaths in Lancashire on family search . A few were around the Halsall area around 1841 which isn't too far away from Ormskirk and some in Wigan . He he was 65 , on the one at Halsall , with a Elizabeth age 45 ,and a john age fifteen . I don't know what other children Jane bailey and him had besides Edward and Esther . Thanks

[Qwackers]

Hi , don't know if there was anymore children or if john died ,I can't find a marriage for him or a death in Ormskirk .

[kiterunner]

There are these two burials at St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, on Lancs OPC:

Burial 2 Dec 1807 Isabel Chamberlain, daughter of Thos Chamberlain of Ormskirk
Burial same day - Jonathan Chamberlain, son of Thos Chamberlain of Ormskirk

[kiterunner]

And this is the image on ancestry
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2478/4199658_02355?pid=4421614&treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ctf15916&_phstart=successSource

It actually says "Jonathan & Isabel Sn & Dr of Thos Chamberlian from Orms."

I can't find baptisms for them to check whether their mother was Jane. Maybe they died before they could be baptised.

[Merry]

There's a bap for a Peter Chamberlain in Ormskirk in 1811, mother Jane, no father recorded. I wondered if Thomas had died/left between 1807 and 1811 but I can't find anything to help with that.

[Qwackers]

Hi , I found a death of a Thomas chamberlane on Ormskirk online clerks in 1820 age 77 abode scarisbrick . Just wondering if this could be Thomas s father its right area . .? Thanks

[Merry]

I didn't know we knew the name of Thomas's father.

It could be Thomas himself despite being older, or it could be an uncle or cousin or not a close relative at all!

[Qwackers]

No we don't know the name of his father it was just a guess that if Some of his children was born in scarisbrick the grandfather could be from around the area . As I say it's only guess work at this stage

[Qwackers]

I also found a marriage of a James chamberlain to a Sarah Rotherham in 1792 in aughton which isn't far away from Ormskirk , could it be a brother of Thomas ,once again a guess ?

[Qwackers]

Hi , Merry , how would I go about proving that Mary burrows was the mother of William ? I am still thinking that William Hales parents were from aughton or around that area ,and not too far away . Thanks

[Merry]

I haven't read back, but isn't William the one we thought was brought up as a Catholic, and you were going to try and access the microfilm of the records for St Anne's Ormskirk at the Lancashire Record Office, looking for his baptism?

[Qwackers]

Hi , I'm sorry I haven't been able to go over sorry

[Qwackers]

i have sent a email with the micro fiche numbers to ask about the record for william . as they say they can do a 10 mins search for free . it's worth a shot . let's see if they say they haven't got them again . They may only have a skeleton service ,so i may have to wait .

[Merry]

I hope you hear back soon.

[Qwackers]

thanks

[Qwackers]

Hi ,Ive just got this back from the lancashire archives .Thank you for your enquiry

I have checked the film for the years 1794, 1795 & 1796. I haven't found an entry for a William Hale but I found one for William Hall son of William and Martha (nee Harrison) on 28 Feb 1796. (DDX 241/26) Does this mean that is name was written as hall or is it not him .You may understand better than I . I didn't mention is burial as we had found the date and name . so that was correct . Let me know what you think Thanks

[Merry]

Is the email referring to St Anne's Ormskirk?

I would imagine the archivist thinks the entry with mmn Harrison reads as surname Hall not Hale. Have you looked to see if there's a marriage to back this up?

I take it they only searched those three years.

I don't understand what you mean about the burial.

[Qwackers]

Hi yes they searched those dates only for his birth , as we found his burial at ormskirk , where it mentioned he was roman catholic yes that' st annes as that what the micro fiche referred to catholic births in ormskirk. I have done some searching and as yet I haven't found martha Harrison . but will have another look .

[Merry]

I appreciate they could only do ten minutes for free, but threee years is quite a tight time-frame to check for his baptism.

[Qwackers]

hi. i could ask for another time frame on the fiche if tryout think it will help . let me know i can ask ,they can only say no .

[Merry]

Yes, you could try, but I'd be surprised if they agreed. After all, why would anyone pay if you can keep getting 10 free minutes?!

[kiterunner]

That entry they already found could be him - you would want to look through for other children of the same couple and see what the surname is on those.

[Merry]

And you also need to look back at post #44 as that shows a lot of other stuff you needed to look for at that church!

[Qwackers]

Hi , I have sent another message to the archives asking if they could also have a look at the records around tha early 1800 s for samuel Hale . I'll let you know what they say. I will look to see if we can see the couple mentioned by them , With children .

[Qwackers]

I've tried to search for a marriage for martha harrison ,to either a hall or hale but at the moment can't find one . the only martha harrison i can find at the moment is one birth in Halsall in 1760 that may be too early ,father william . halsall is about half mile from ormskirk as i know it well .

[kiterunner]

FamilySearch has a marriage between a William Hall and a Martha Harrison 5 Feb 1788 at Carleton in Craven, Yorkshire. Just outside Skipton, and therefore very close to the Lancashire border. Of course I don't know whether it's the same couple as in the baptism.

[JayG]

FamilySearch has a marriage between a William Hall and a Martha Harrison 5 Feb 1788 at Carleton in Craven, Yorkshire. Just outside Skipton, and therefore very close to the Lancashire border. Of course I don't know whether it's the same couple as in the baptism.

This couple were married by licence.

William Hall aged 20 of Manchester
Martha Harrison aged 22 of Broughton
Intended place of marriage Broughton
Licence 4/2/1788

Archbishop of York marriage licence index 1613-1839

[JayG]

Broughton PR on FMP

William Hall of the parish of Manchester and Martha Harrison of this parish married by licence 5/2/1788.

Both William and Martha signed

Witnesses William Hopper and Atkinson Calvert

On the same page Martha witnessed the marriage of Robert Wellock and Esther Williamson 13/5/1785

[Qwackers]

It could be them , but they were in Ormskirk R.C births on the micro fiche they would have moved around as skipton is about 60 miles from Ormskirk , will keep looking maybe check the liverpool records as liverpool isn't far from ormskirk .

[Qwackers]

I don't think this william Hall is anything to do with william Hale . so will have to look at other options . There are lots of hales around the ormskirk liverpool area ,potentially the right years and could be father of our william . but will wait to see the archivist comes back with anything . I need to go and look for myself . but i don't think they are open yet to the public . I will definitely as soon as it's possible .

[Qwackers]

There's a birth of a william Hale 1795 Liverpool To a isacc hale and catherine youds . the right year for our william .

[Qwackers]

there's a few other william hale births around halsall and melling around 1797 . these places are not far from ormskirk .

[Merry]

Remember it's most likely he was a Catholic. If that is correct, then wherever he was from, he won't have been baptised in the C of E.

[Qwackers]

yes ,that must be a consideration .

[Olde Crone]

Um, he may well have been baptised C of E if born before 1791. (Catholic emancipation act).

OC

[Merry]

Good point, but he's supposed to have been born about 1795. I suppose his brother (if that is his brother in post #44), could have made the cut!

[Olde Crone]

Sorry, I fixed on the marriage date!

OC

[Qwackers]

Hi ,i'm sorry , lancashire archives are closed again and i don't know when i will get a answer now so we will have to wait to see if we can find william or maybe a brother of his .

[Qwackers]

Hi Merry hope your ok . I have just come across what could be a clue of a relative of william Hale . on the marriage of william eccleston and ann Grimshaw in Skelmersdale . I noticed the witnesses were james burrows williams brother and there was a louisa Hale . So I looked to see if I could find a marriage for Louisa and found a marriage in 1898 to a joseph simpkin it says her father was samuel Hale . just thought there could be a connection to the family .What do you think ?

[Merry]

I think I need a lie down after wasting all that time on Richard Robinson!

I have no idea who William Hale is. You don't know if the witness, Louisa Hale, was married or single either, so lots of work to do.

Edit : I've just realised this is a different thread to the one I thought I was on (Robinson). I really don't want to have to read 100 posts to work out what you think I know, so perhaps a quick summary?

[Merry]

So I looked to see if I could find a marriage for Louisa and found a marriage in 1898 to a joseph simpkin it says her father was samuel Hale .


You forgot to mention Samuel Hale was a carter and dec'd by 1898 and her age was 26, all of which which might help.

From the 1911 census, Louisa Simpkin married 13 years aged 38 b St Helens. Also in the house is Ellen Hale aged 80 b Ormskirk. She is described as Mother (of the head, Joseph), but she may well be Louisa's mother.

I won't look any more until you have confirmed if you now know who they are. This Louisa doesn't have to be the witness on the 1894? marriage, just the person wh married in 1898.

[Qwackers]

hi ,i was just seeing her name on the marriage at skelmersdale and wondering if she was a relative To the hales . from Jane Hale (robinson ) usually you may pick a relative as a witness . She may not have anything to do with them , but i always try to look out of the box . As she is a witness . on the marriage of william and ann grimshaw .

[Merry]

Actually, I should have compared the sigs on the marriages first! They are extremely similar, so very likely to be the same person.

HALE, LOUISA HARRISON
GRO Reference: 1872 S Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 08B Page 632

Samuel Hale
Marriage 11 Aug 1851 Ormskirk Ellen Harrison

Samuel's father William Hale weaver. Ellen's father James Harrison, may also say weaver?

[Merry]

So you do know who Samuel is as he is on this thread already. Post #33 and others just before.

[Qwackers]

Hi , I refer to post 15 William hale born approx 1795 lancashire . I never established his birth A tree owner of the simpkins from sam Hale who was one of william and esther chamberlains children Has sent me a screenshot of the ancestors from william Hale on it ,it is saying that william Hale was born in Maghull in 1797 father thomas mother cicely . I don't know if it is correct are not as yet as i'm still waiting for word back from the owner of the tree who lives in america . The tree is on ancestry and i'm not a member so i can't view it . I believe that the couple Thomas and cicely had a few children besides william Is there any way i can do my own investigation with regards to siblings etc . ? thanks

[Olde Crone]

If you look on lan-opc, there are several births to Thomas and Cicely, but William's birth is only listed with Thomas as father, so mother not proven. Also, Thomas and Cicely married in 1809 - although that may not be the correct marriage, I can't immediately find another.

OC

[Merry]

I wouldn't bother until they have told you how they know this is the correct William Hale. They may have evidence of course, but it wouldn't be the first time a family with more unusual parents names has been selected because there's a better chance of finding them elsewhere rather than because they are the right people! Please note, I'm not saying they are incorrect, just that they need to tell you their evidence. All you have is that he was born in Lancashire around 1795, which may or may not be correct.

If it were me, whilst I was waiting, I would be looking on Lancs OPC to see if there was any indication that this child of Thomas and Cicely died in childhood.

You may not get much sense out of anyone on here today, given the one hundred year wait for the 1921 census was over last night at midnight!

[kiterunner]

Did your William have a daughter named Cicely? Obviously it wouldn't prove that it was his mother's name, but it could be an indication.

[Merry]

Did your William have a daughter named Cicely? Obviously it wouldn't prove that it was his mother's name, but it could be an indication.

I've made that mistake before!

[Olde Crone]

Ok, looks very unlikely that William's mother was Cicely, see as follows.

?(6 July 1794 St Andrew Maghull, John Bale s/o Thomas and Ann, husbandman of Maghull.)
12 Feb 1797 St Thomas Maghull, William s/o Thomas Hale, leabourer (sic)
1 Dec 1799, St T. Henery(sic)s/o Thomas Hale, of Maghull, labourer.
21 Nov 1802 St T, Thomas, s/o Thomas Hale of Maghull, labourer.

BURIAL - St Thomas Melling ,1 Aug 1807 Ann Hale wife of Thomas Hale labourer of Melling.

MARRIAGE - St James Toxteth 14 June 1812
Thomas Hale, widower, farmer
Cicily Guy, widow.

Then a whole raft of children ten in all, youngest called Cicely, all very easily found on Lan opc.,

But you do need to wait for your contact who may know something we don't know!


And final proof that Cicely wasn't William's mother -

Death 1871 Ormskirk, Cecily Hale aged 81.
OC

[Qwackers]

hi. yes i think your right , i need to know how they have connected thomas and cicely to william hale . i will let you know when i find out thanks

[Qwackers]

hi , i've noted that they have got cicely guy as mother , and as you have displayed it can't be her . thanks

[Olde Crone]

Oh dear, I should have read the whole thread before I jumped in! Then I would have known that William was Catholic and therefore Thomas and Cicely would be too, which they weren't.

Oh well, it passed a few rainy hours.

OC

[Qwackers]

Hi just found out that ann of thomas and ann died in 1807 according to another tree of the hales , this could explain a marriage to cicely guy later . so she could be the stepmother if the tree is correct but the catholic birth has thrown the tree into confusion . yes i forgot william was a catholic and as such was buried as a catholic . i will see what the tree owners say . thanks

[Olde Crone]

I put that burial on my post above.

OC

[Qwackers]

sorry Olde crone should go to specsavers lol

[Qwackers]

Hi merry I have just had word back from lancashire archives . regarding the birth of william hale as on post 36 . they say there is a catholic birth in ormskirk of a william Hale 1794 . father william mother mary . which is great ,thy mentioned god parents but didn't name them . so i feel this is a break through . But as yet the only marriage i can find is the one in aughton between a mary wilson and william hale . in 1784 . the only other is the one in 1802 , tomary burrows which is too late . what's your thoughts . obviously,they could have married outside that area . ?

[kiterunner]

You would need to find out if there are other births to the same parents before William's, and see when the first one was, to see whether the 1784 marriage is likely to be the right one or not.

[Qwackers]

hi , i will look now to see if there are any . thanks

[Qwackers]

i can't see any for them , but obviously they may once again be under th catholic births in ormskirk . and won't be on the parish clerks . so i won't be able to find them .

[Merry]

What kiterunner says and see post #44.

[Qwackers]

i tried to find births which i thought could link mary and william to other births from 1784 . but as yet not found any that would fit . perhaps it may help to get mary's death certificate . thanks

[Qwackers]

hi ,yes i did find quite a few potential childrens births for william and Mary between 1794/12 and up to 1820. But if this is th correct parents why would william be christened as a catholic and not these children ? how would i then prove a link for siblings of william ? thanks

[Merry]

hi ,yes i did find quite a few potential childrens births for william and Mary between 1794/12 and up to 1820. But if this is th correct parents why would william be christened as a catholic and not these children ? how would i then prove a link for siblings of william ? thanks

It sounds as if you were searching in C of E records for these children when you shoud have been asking Lancashire archives to look in the Catholic records, particularly for Samuel. The children you found are most likely for a different family.

[Qwackers]

lancs archives are looking into a few things at the moment. but they sometimes,they takeaweek to answer . so i will ask once they get back to me. you are saying that you don't think the children i found ,belong to william and Mary ?

[Merry]

lancs archives are looking into a few things at the moment. but they sometimes,they takeaweek to answer . so i will ask once they get back to me. you are saying that you don't think the children i found ,belong to william and Mary ?

I dont know, but it would seem unlikely. Was there a Samuel (re post #44)?

[Qwackers]

I will tread find out off the archives after the holidays have a nice easter

[Merry]

So, was there a Samuel?

[Qwackers]

I don't know yet , the archives willl probably shut until tuesday .I will let you know if they get back to me . Thanks

[Merry]

you are saying that you don't think the children i found ,belong to william and Mary ?

I wasn't referring to the Catholic entries. I was responding to this question (above). You said you had found some C of E entries, children of William and Mary (probably not the people you are looking for) and I asked you if there was a baptism for a Samuel within those C of E records.

[Qwackers]

sorry merry , i didn't understand i'll check .

[Qwackers]

i've checked and no there wasn't a samuel .

[Merry]

Good.

[Qwackers]

Hi merry , i've had a reply to my request for a search for a samuel hale .The archives have said that i have to go and search at the archives myself or hire a researcher as it would take over 10 mins to locate the files and search . So all i have gleaned is william catholic birth 1794 Mother mary father william . god parents thomas gradwell and molly boardman . I did find a marriage for a william Hale and mary wilson in 1784 aughton but i don't think that the church is a catholic one . so it looks like i may have to take a trip to the archives when i get the chance . I also asked the ormskirk church office to locate the grave plot of William Hale to see if the plot had a headstone or not . If i went to look i didn't want to be wondering around looking for a grave without a location . They have no grave location papers , the archives have got them . so therefore i can't find out about that either .without a researcher . so there it is . These people have got you over a barrel .

[Merry]

Hi merry , i've had a reply to my request for a search for a samuel hale .The archives have said that i have to go and search at the archives myself or hire a researcher as it would take over 10 mins to locate the files and search .

I hope you told them you know his age from his burial (33 in Oct 1824)?

I expect if you had asked about Samuel at the same time as you requested they search for William, they would have looked for you, as they were both born within a similar time frame.

So all i have gleaned is william catholic birth 1794 Mother mary father william . god parents thomas gradwell and molly boardman .

You say 'all' but that's very good news. Now you have a reason to buy the death certificate for Mary Hale buried as a Catholic 6 Jul 1840 aged 77 at Ormskirk. Hopefully the certificate will give you the name of her husband (if she was, or had been, married) and also her marital status at the time of her death. If her husband was William, then there's a good chance this is your William's mother.


I did find a marriage for a william Hale and mary wilson in 1784 aughton but i don't think that the church is a catholic one .

As I said in posts #44 and #55, "With regard to the marriage at St Michael's Aughton - Catholic marriages were illegal from 1754 to 1837, so it's not a 'problem' to find marriages of Catholic people in an Anglican church."

Don't you think the fact there are no obvious C of E baptisms on Lancs OPC for the Aughton couple is a good thing for you? You reallly need to get access to the Catholic records to establish when the parents of William (1794) began having children and when they had their last child. At the moment you are doing a jigsaw with only some of the available pieces.

I also asked the ormskirk church office to locate the grave plot of William Hale to see if the plot had a headstone or not .

You should have asked them to look for Mary (d 1840) as well.

The biggest issue would seem to be, there is no obvious burial for William Hale, the father of Wm bap 1794. This is one of the reasons you need Mary's death cert. If her husband was not William then you might need to think again about what happened to both your William's parents. If her husband was William, I don't know how likely it is that he was buried without a record, possibly because he may have been Catholic (we don't know they both were) ) or just because the C of E minister forgot to write his name in the burial register.

[Qwackers]

Hi Merry. Yes you are right I should have asked about samuel at the same time . but like you have said we know his burial so we can give the year approx of his birth . so i have asked if they could check the year , lets see if they will . If not I will have to order the death certificate . and take it from there. the gentleman who gave me the details of william was very kind but a manager of searches was pontificating with me saying how long the process took and was quite rude . so i won't be contacting him again lol

[Qwackers]

hi merry ,with regards post 140 , finding if william his mary's husband on the death certificate , the register office have confirmed that william was her husband . so i think it's good news .

[Merry]

Oh that's good. Did it say Mary was the wife of or the widow of William? Also, who registered the death?

[Qwackers]

hi , no i cheated i asked the registrar a straight yes no answer i could ask , but they are quite strict with giving you info free lol

[Qwackers]

i did ask if the husband was william in my question,

[Qwackers]

william was her husband .

[Merry]

That's a pity. You should have asked if she was the widow of William as you wanted Yes to that question and not the question you asked which is more ambiguous! The registrar probably answered yes regardless of whether it said wife of or widow of.

[Qwackers]

i will try and ask , they only can say know .

[Qwackers]

I've just had word back from pm the registrar , and the answer was mary was a widow . she can't give me anymore info , but that's good isn't it ?

[Merry]

Now you know not to be looking for her husband on the 1841 census.

[Qwackers]

yes your right

[Qwackers]

Hi , do you think that william and mary are my ancestors of william hale , as the questions have been answered . the only thing that's bothering me now is william and mary's ages . she is a lot older than him . would it matter . ? And with regards to finding her birth if she is the right mother of william throws up the R.C records again ,if she was baptised at st anne's R.C the record won't be there to see they will be again held by the lancs archives Lol let me know your thoughts ?

[Merry]

Great, 150 posts for me to read!!

So...

Post #15 kiterunner:

All we have about William Hale's birthplace is from the 1841 census, which is just "Yes" for born in Lancashire. I assume his death is the one which was registered Jul-Sep 1849 Ormskirk, age 54. Which would mean he was born about 1795.

Post #56 Me:

Burial: 5 Aug 1849 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
William Hale -
Age: 54 yrs
Abode: Ormskirk
Notes: Roman Catholic
Register: Burials 1846 - 1852, Page 266, Entry 2126
Source: LDS Film 1849664

Post #44 Me:

Burial: 15 Oct 1824 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancs.
Samuel Hale -
Age: 33 yrs
Abode: Ormskirk
Notes: R Catholic
Register: Burials 1813 - 1825, Page 271, Entry 2162
Source: LDS Film 1849664

Burial: 6 Jul 1840 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancs.
Mary Hale -
Age: 77 yrs
Abode: Ormskirk
Notes: Roman Catholic
Register: Burials 1825 - 1843, Page 462, Entry 1906
Source: LDS Film 1849664

So, now you might want to look for baptisms for William and Samuel at St Anne's plus baptisms for the children of your William and Esther.

Mary Hale, bur 1840, could be the mother of your William and possibly also Samuel! Should you find records that link these people, Mary's death certificate should give the name of her husband if that was known to the informant.

Post #46 You:

Hi , just wondering if William Hale born in 1780 in aughton which is near Ormskirk could be Williams father ?

Post #47 Me:

Sensibly, he is to young to be the father of William born about 1795. William born 1780 might well be the one who married in 1802 to Mary Burrows.

Back to post #43 Me:

Marriage: 6 Dec 1802 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
William Hale - this parish
Mary Burrows - (X), this parish
Witness: Richard Woosey; John Hankin
Married by Banns by: Will Naylor Minister of Altcar
Register: Marriages 1784 - 1812, Page 190, Entry 762
Source: LDS Film 1849664

Post #122 You:

I have just had word back from lancashire archives. They say there is a catholic birth in ormskirk of a william Hale 1794 . father william mother mary .

Post #123 kiterunner:

You would need to find out if there are other births to the same parents before William's, and see when the first one was, to see whether the 1784 marriage is likely to be the right one or not.

Post #139 You:

i've had a reply to my request for a search for a samuel hale .The archives have said that i have to go and search at the archives myself

I did find a marriage for a william Hale and mary wilson in 1784 aughton but i don't think that the church is a catholic one

Post #140 Me:

Catholic marriages were illegal from 1754 to 1837, so it's not a 'problem' to find marriages of Catholic people in an Anglican church."

Don't you think the fact there are no obvious C of E baptisms on Lancs OPC for the Aughton couple is a good thing for you? You reallly need to get access to the Catholic records to establish when the parents of William (1794) began having children and when they had their last child. At the moment you are doing a jigsaw with only some of the available pieces.

The biggest issue would seem to be, there is no obvious burial for William Hale, the father of Wm bap 1794.

And then just the last few posts that I remember where we discussed some of what was on Mary Hale's 1840 death certificate that you have not paid for. At her death she was the widow of a William Hale.

[Merry]

So, that's taken me well over an hour. Now on to your questions......

Hi , do you think that william and mary are my ancestors of william hale

Yes, I think the 1794 Catholic baptism is your William and I think the 1840 death/burial is your William's mother.

the only thing that's bothering me now is william and mary's ages . she is a lot older than him . would it matter . ?

Please can you tell me what the age difference is, because I have not found anything about Mary's husband's age in this thread, so I'm wondering if it's on a different thread, but don't have the energy to look.

And with regards to finding her birth if she is the right mother of william throws up the R.C records again ,if she was baptised at st anne's R.C the record won't be there to see they will be again held by the lancs archives

To find Mary's baptism you need to know her maiden surname. You can't say the marriage in 1784 of Mary Wilson and Wm Hale is the right marriage because you have not researched the St Anne's Catholic registers to see when your couple began having children and when their last child was born. Really you either have to do this research yourself or pay someone else to do it. It's now just over four years since you said you would go to the record office yourself (post #37) and we have barely moved forward (or backward!) since then.

[Qwackers]

Hi merry i'm sorry that you had to go through all the posts , i could have simplified it . I was under the assumption that you thought william who died in 1816 was mary's husband . so i've got that wrong . Yes i agree that mary is most likely williams mother . And to find her marriage to william i need to find her maiden name . Your right , it's four years , since i started the thread . I'm afraid i can't drive at the moment as i am waiting for surgery to my eye , and have to rely on other people to help me .Otherwise i would have gone to the archives , I would love to find all the answers to the questions , Mary's maiden name , was she born in Ormskirk , William Hale seniors death and birth . Your right it's a jigsaw with lots pieces that i can't put all together . But on the bright side we have got william jrs birth , and we know mary was a widow when she died and her husband was william . Somitbis at least something . I will try and sort out a day when someone can take me over and help me go through the fiche . maybe then will i find the answers to these questions . I have doubled checked for a possible death of william senior but as yet haven't come up with any .

[Qwackers]

on the opc search there's only the mary willson marriage that comes up ,marriage william hale / to a mary start 1780 .

[Qwackers]

i did find a baptism of a whilliam Hale in March 1765 to a samuel and Jane Hale . We do not know if william senior was a catholic . could this be his birth ? as the age is about right for Our Mary ?

[Merry]

I was under the assumption that you thought william who died in 1816 was mary's husband .

I think he is much more likely to be the husband of Mary Burrows who married in 1802.

And to find her marriage to william i need to find her maiden name .

You won't know her maiden name until you find the correct marriage and you need to know more about the Catholic children of Wm and Mary before you can go anywhere with that.

[Merry]

i did find a baptism of a whilliam Hale in March 1765 to a samuel and Jane Hale . We do not know if william senior was a catholic . could this be his birth ? as the age is about right for Our Mary ?

I saw that one too. Yet another reason you should try and establish whether Samuel Hale born about 1791 is a child of your Wm and Mary as he would be named for his grandfather if this is the correct baptism for your William. However, until you have looked at all those Catholic records you don't know what else is out there.

Back in 2019 you said:

But I did manage to find a marriage , between a Mary Wilson and and William Hale on the 1/Aug /1784 . At st Michaels in Aughton

but you neglected to say this William's occupation was recorded at the marriage. He was a staymaker. Unfortunately it's very unlikely the catholic records will give you an occupation in their records, but you should be aware of this in any case and that he might also be recorded as a tailor as many staymakers were.

[Qwackers]

Hi yes merry your right as usual i need to see the catholic records for the births etc , specially to see if there is a samuel . and other children . so going to the archives is a must . thanks

[Qwackers]

hi merry , I paid the archives to find copies of the births of samuel hale and william Hale to see if the parents were the same i received them this morning and they are both sons of william and mary Hale . so that's good news isn't it ? regards Chrissie x

[Merry]

What was the date of Samuel's baptism?

[Qwackers]

hi They have sent copies of what i asked for with birth years . on the back is the ddx ref with william Hale 1795 and Samuel 1791.

[Merry]

So, you still don't know the full range of children for Wm and Mary?

[Qwackers]

that,may be true but i have done what you suggested i should do to tie samuel hale with william Hale . as brothers so i have done that . there was no mention of other siblings .

[Qwackers]

in post 153 you suggest getting these records to tie samuel to william and parents william and mary . And i have done all of that now .

[Merry]

From post #153:

Post #123 kiterunner:

You would need to find out if there are other births to the same parents before William's, and see when the first one was, to see whether the 1784 marriage is likely to be the right one or not.


From post #154:

You can't say the marriage in 1784 of Mary Wilson and Wm Hale is the right marriage because you have not researched the St Anne's Catholic registers to see when your couple began having children and when their last child was born. Really you either have to do this research yourself or pay someone else to do it.

[garstonite]

You are probably not aware that Ormskirk Market is one of the oldest markets in England - Aughton and Little Aughton are mentioned in the Domesday Book - my father was evacuated to Little Aughton when WW2 started - he was 13 at the time - A LOT of Liverpool people travel by Merseyrail to Ormskirk Market on Thursdays - and Saturdays - so - if you think it is worth trying - contact them to see if anyone knows anything about Roman Catholic Records there - I would imagine someone would know - great pubs as well - The Eureka - springs to mind ...anyway - if you think it is worth a shot ?? let me know - I can get the Merseyrail from Garston to Ormskirk Free on my Travel Pass for aged 60 and over - - https://discoverormskirk.com/market/

ADDED
I could go next Thursday for Pigs Belly / Lambs Neck Ends and Ox Heart - oh - and a pint ...lol...
on a serious note is St Annes church still active ?
Yes - built 1732
https://www.stannes-ormskirk.org.uk/
let me know if you want me to visit - pretty local for me - about 20 miles ...and a nice train ride ...xxx could do with a day out doing something different -
Church administrator - Colette Adams-Duff - e mail address
[email protected]
Good Luck - she is quite fit as well ...ha ha

[Qwackers]

hi garstonite , i think i emailed st annes R.C church , to ask about theiir records ,I think you can by a cd rom for deaths and memorial for the church but not the births and marriages , But if you go to ormskirk and get the chance you could ask about the records if it isn't a problem . I have just got two copies of A1 sheets with a little info and it's cost me £17 . from lancs archives . so if you can glean anything i would be interested . Ormskirk is one of my favourite places ,i spent a lot of my teenage years there and in Old Skem before they recreated it lol .. thanks . chrissie

[garstonite]

I will check if anyone can be in the church next Thursday - if so - I will have a day out there xxxxx

[Merry]

Qwackers, please could you answer the pm I sent you on 14th June. Thanks.