Sanders or Saunders, Monmouthshire

[Anstey Nomad]

We’re trying to find Thomas (known also as Tom) Sanders (or Saunders) born April 5th 1886 who married Lily (or Lilly) Fish, born in Pontypool district on 1st March 1890.

They married in the JQ 1905 in the reg district of Newport. Lily was only 15 when she married.

By 1911, they had three children:

Thomas John Saunders born SQ 1906 Newport, Monmouthshire
Elizabeth Clara Saunders (also known as Dolly) born MQ 1908 Newport, Monmouthshire and
Emma Sanders born MQ 1910 also in Newport, Monmouthshire.

I cannot find them on the 1911 census at all.

Would anyone else like to have a go?

Thanks

[Merry]

I haven't found them, but just wondered if it might be important that in 1939 Lily Sanders gave her dob as 5 Aug 1889.

[kiterunner]

Do you know Tom's occupation, please?

[Merry]

It was collier on the 1908 bap of Elizabeth Clara. Their address was 4 Forge Hamsner(?) Row, Cwmbran, Monmouthshire. I can't find a bap for the 1910 daughter.

[Anstey Nomad]

Possible reason for fudging the birth date - the age of consent was 16 in 1905 ...

[Anstey Nomad]

The birth in the MQ of 1890 in Pontypool District looks good.

[Merry]

Possible reason for fudging the birth date - the age of consent was 16 in 1905 ...

Um, I thought it was 1929 that the minimum age at marriage (with consent) was raised to 16 for both sexes, from 12 for a girl and 14 for a boy?

[Anstey Nomad]

"In England and Wales, the age of sexual consent for women has been set at 16 since 1885, when campaigners fought to raise it from 13 to prevent child prostitution." www.bbc.co.uk

[Merry]

Perhaps the consent bit was what made the difference?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Marriage_Act_1929

You could definitely marry younger until 1929.

[kiterunner]

I can't find them, sorry. Maybe an address from the 1910 birth (or the 1912 one) would help, or if we knew where Tom sr was born.

[Anstey Nomad]

There are only six Thomas or Tom Sanders or Saunders registered in JQ 1886. The birth date comes from the family Bible, so is thought to be good. None of them were born anywhere near South Wales - Middlesbrough, West Derby, Newport Parnell, Reading, Romford, or Devon.

Now if I could only find one of them in Monmouthshire on that census.

[kiterunner]

His date of birth is 5th April 1886 on the 1939 Register too.

[kiterunner]

There are only six Thomas or Tom Sanders or Saunders registered in JQ 1886. The birth date comes from the family Bible, so is thought to be good. None of them were born anywhere near South Wales - Middlesbrough, West Derby, Newport Parnell, Reading, Romford, or Devon.

Now if I could only find one of them in Monmouthshire on that census.

The Middlesbrough one is son of Frederick and May and with them in Durham in 1911, single.

[kiterunner]

And the Devon one was born at Cadbury, Devon, son of James and Sarah, and is with them in Devon in 1911, single.

[Merry]

Ha!!! Found them! Different surname and unexpected area - Royston, West Riding of Yorkshire.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_27549_0549_03/38685887?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dACO102%26_phstart%3dsucce ssSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3d1911england%26so %3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3demm a%26gsfn_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1910%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msmn g%3dlil*%26msmng_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catb ucket%3dr%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV%3d1%26uidh%3d672&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[Merry]

??

Births Jun 1886
MORRISS Thomas Wakefield 9c 543 (mmn Taylor)

[Merry]

Saunders connection (1891 census)?

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/WRYRG12_3743_3745-0521/3896773?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dACO119%26_phstart%3dsucce ssSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1891%26so%3d2 %26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dtom %26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dmorriss%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbd y%3d1886%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26cpxt%3d1%26cp %3d11%26catbucket%3dr%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV%3d1%26uidh% 3d672&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[Anstey Nomad]

Oh wow! My friend is now beside herself and full of admiration for your research skills. A brick wall is about to come down. Thank you so much.

[Merry]

There's a couple on the same 1891 page - Edwin and Elizabeth Morriss, but they don't seem to be Tom's parents as Elizabeth's maiden surname is Broadhead (not Taylor) for the registrations of her children.

[Merry]

I was trying to work out how Tom was a nephew to John and Emma Saunders. She might be nee Taylor or Morris(s).

I found them in 1911 in Monmouthshire, married 45 years and two dec'd children:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2353/rg14_32025_0763_06/3055827?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dACO140%26_phstart%3dsucce ssSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3d1911wales%26so%3 d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3demma%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dsa*nders%26gsln_ x%3d1%26gskw%3dgawber%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp %3d11%26catbucket%3dr%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV%3d1%26uidh% 3d672&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

The 45 year marriage hasn't helped!

[Anstey Nomad]

Thanks again. We’ve followed John and Emma down to Neath in 1901, still with Tom Morriss. Four years later he’s marrying in Newport, Mon as Tom Sanders.

It’s going to take a while to sort this lot out, but thanks again for giving us a start.

[Merry]

Still can't find the marriage but there are at least two Emma Taylor's born in Gawber around the right date and no one called Emma Morris(s). If Emma's sister was perhaps Tom's mother it might be difficult to pick out the right Taylor/Morris marriage if the Morris is spelled with just one S.

[Merry]

There's also a Jemima Morris b 1882 Q1 mmn Taylor who was adopted in 1891 and in 1911 when she is Jemima Hall (wife of Robert Henry Hall) she has a brother named John Morriss b Lofthouse Gate (same area as Tom's birth) aged 23 who was also not with parents in 1891. I can't see his birth reg though.

Ah, I just found the bap for Jemima at Outwood, West Riding:

born 28 Nov 1881 bap 24 Dec 1881 parents Isaac and Frances Morris address Lofthouse Gate occ of father, miner.

Marriages Dec 1878
MORRIS Isaac Wakefield 9c 87
TAYLOR Frances Wakefield 9c 87

I'm sure I saw a Frances in the house of one of the Emma Taylors b Gawler in the 1851 or 1861 census.

[Merry]

Tom's parents?

Deaths Dec 1889
Morris Isaac 37 Wakefield 9c 24


Deaths Jun 1890
Morris Frances 34 Wakefield 9c 21

[Merry]

Isaac Morris b Wales!

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/WRYRG11_4573_4575-0840/25164425?backurl=https%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co. uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dACO193%26_phstart%3dsucce ssSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1881%26so%3d2 %26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3disaac%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dmorris*%26gsln_ x%3d1%26gskw%3dwakefield%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%2 6cp%3d11%26catbucket%3dr%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV%3d1%26ui dh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[Merry]

Now I know where to look, here is Thomas's baptism along with his date of birth, 5 Apr 1886 :D:D:D

[Merry]

Whoops, forgot the link....

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=ACO198&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=wyorkcoebaptism&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsfn=thomas&gsfn_x=1&gsln=morris&gsln_x=1&msfng=isaac&msfng_x=1&msmng=fra*&msmng_x=1&cpxt=1&cp=11&catbucket=r&MSAV=2&MSV=1&uidh=672&pcat=34&fh=0&h=6204839&recoff=&ml_rpos=1

[Anstey Nomad]

Fantastic! Thank you again.

[Anstey Nomad]

Anyone fancy a go at Isaac Morriss? I’ve been looking today, but can’t get a lead.

[Merry]

To do what with him?!!

[Merry]

Your friend will need Isaac's marriage cert for his father's details.

[Anstey Nomad]

Really sorry. I completely forgot about this. You’re absolutely right of course. I was planning a speculative exercise to see if there was an obvious candidate as there are only about five of them, but yes, she will need the marriage certificate in the end.