Can't find Horners on censuses

[kiterunner]

This is John Horner and his family in 1861:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8767/MDXRG9_156_159-0011/5195220?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/19209336/person/770727217/facts

7 Culford Road, Hackney, London
John Horner Head Mar 28 Commercial Traveller Midx Islington
Sarah Do Wife " 22 Do Hoxton
Ada M Do Daur 4 Do Islington
Willm D Do Son 1 Do Do.

John Horner was born 30 Sep 1832 Shoreditch and married Sarah Forrester 19 Mar 1856 St Pancras. Ada Maria was born 1856 and William Daniel 1859. There was another daughter Bertha born in Hackney later in 1861. And I think these are also children of John and Sarah's as MMN is For(r)ester on the GRO online birth index and they don't belong to John's brother Thomas and Sarah's sister Caroline who also married each other:
Sarah Sophia Jan-Mar 1864
Arthur John Jul-Sep 1865
John Albert Oct-Dec 1866
all Hackney.

There is a possible death for John sr Oct-Dec 1882 Hackney, age 50, with a burial 27 Oct 1882 at Newham, and for Sarah sr Jul-Sep 1892 West Ham age 54, with a burial 6 Sep 1892 Newham.

I know that John sr was at Tredegar Road, Bow, in 1877, working as a financial agent, as adminstration of his father's estate was granted to him on the 14th Nov 1877. But I can't find him or his family on the 1871 census, and I can't find most of them in 1881, nor Sarah in 1891. Can anyone spot them, please?

I have found Ada and Bertha in 1881:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/LNDRG11_383_387-0515/14894792?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/19209336/person/770727541/facts

Bertha married a Richard Mansfield later in 1881 and she died in 1888. Sarah Sophia married a Samuel Youngman in 1886 and she is down as Sophia on the 1891 census. She named a daughter Bertha, which would fit with this family. Arthur John married a Phoebe Smith in 1884 and I have found them on later censuses.

[Lindsay]

I'm not having any luck looking in 1871.

[kiterunner]

Thanks for looking, Lindsay.

There is a Henry / Henry Charles Horner listed at Culford Road on the 1863 and 1865 electoral registers but I don't know whether he is John under an alias or someone else. It doesn't give the house number.

[Lindsay]

I checked Tredegar Road and Culford Road in the 1871 on FMP but there's no trace of any Horners.

Very frustrating.

[ElizabethHerts]

I couldn't find anything for the 1871 Census either, Kate.

[kiterunner]

Thanks for looking. I guess they didn't want to be found!

[kiterunner]

John Albert Horner died in 1924 in Epping, age 58, so surely he should turn up on at least one census. Not found him yet though.

[kiterunner]

Hmm, having said that, this looks to be Arthur John Horner's son Arthur Albert (just plain Arthur on his birth reg!) in 1911 with uncle John Horner age 43, single, cab driver, born Hackney.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_09766_0601_03/52970278?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1911England%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_ r_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3d john%2520%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dho*er%26gsln_x%3d1 %26msbdy%3d1867%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26gskw%3 dhackn*%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

So uncle John Horner must be John Albert.

[HarrysMum]

Can't find any in 1871 even just with first names. Sorry.

[kiterunner]

Thanks for trying, Libby.

[Merry]

I've tried various things on Ancestry, FMP and UK Census Online, but no luck :(

I concentrated on the 1871 census for the whole family and mainly John and Sarah in 1881.

I couldn't find any likely candidates for the 1892 death for Sarah in the 1891 census.

[kiterunner]

Thanks, Merry.

[Phoenix]

Looking at London censuses in the old days, there were a distressing number of entries which said "lodger took census papers" for the 1871 census.

It's a pity he was a commercial traveller. Chances are, he went without the family. I found one commercial traveller, always away from home, and with "wives" in every town he visited. One poor woman even took his name and listed her natural children as step-children. He then found someone with a fortune, so he married her instead.

[Janet]

I too went hunting a couple times, unsurprisingly without a glimmer of success. Somewhat belatedly, however, it occurred to the typesetter in me that 'rn' can very easily be mistaken for 'm' and wondered whether they could be hiding as Homer. Haven't had time to go looking again. Probably you've already searched with Ho*er anyway.

[Janet]

Well, there is one Jno Homer the right age on the 1871, a lodger "Artist on Gold" born London at 20 John Street, St James Clerkenwell. The image could very well read Horner. He is with a Caroline born Broadwater, Suffolk, same age, same surname. On the line directly above them is another lodger, at 19 John Street, with first name Sophia, age 20, wrong age for Sarah Sophia though. Surname Campbell, born Herefordshire. Not sure what scenario to offer for this but the constellation of names is intriguing. Red herring?

Archive reference RG10
Piece number 389
Folio 51
Page 11

Ancestry
Jno Homer (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/LNDRG10_388_391-0242/11812517?backurl=https%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co. uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

FMP
John Homer (https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1871%2f0002148691)
This link is the transcription. I couldn't get the image to load, wound up having to download it, but it's there and same as Ancestry.

EDIT:
Same one on 1881? Birthplace “Not Known”; now a silversmith with wife Emma born Birmingham.
Registration district Birmingham
Archive reference RG11
Piece number 3002
Folio 81
Page 11
Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/WARRG11_2999_3003-1000?pid=22447137&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DZTq111%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource %26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26 gsfn%3DJohn%26gsfn_x%3DNN%26gsln%3DHomer%26gsln_x% 3D1%26msbdy%3D1832%26msbdy_x%3D1%26MSAV%3D2%26uidh %3D9uh%26pcat%3D1881UKI%26h%3D22447137%26dbid%3D75 72%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=ZTq111&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true)
FMP (https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1881%2f4315399%2f01000&parentid=gbc%2f1881%2f0013589461)

[Merry]

They should be Horner not Homer in 1871.

This is the same couple in 1881:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/LNDRG11_221_226-0124?pid=14106718&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DOuS4177%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3Duki1881%26g ss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26gsfn%3Djoh n%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln%3Dho*er%26gsln_x%3D1%26gskw% 3DcAROLINE%26gskw_x%3D1%26cpxt%3D1%26cp%3D4%26catb ucket%3Drstp%26MSAV%3D2%26MSV%3D1%26uidh%3D672%26p cat%3D35%26fh%3D33%26h%3D14106718%26recoff%3D%26ml _rpos%3D34&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=OuS4177&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

Marriage 1863:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31280_197883-00103/3358193?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dOuS4185%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3dlmamarriages%26 so%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3djohn%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dhorner%26gsln_x% 3d1%26mssng%3dcaroline%26mssng_x%3d1%26mssns%3dcol lier%26mssns_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d4%26catbucket %3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV%3d1%26uidh%3d672&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Caroline's 1861 and 1851 census entries show Caroline Collier b Broadwater Suffolk and about the same age as Caroline Horner/Homer.

John with his parents in 1851:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8860/MDXHO107_1519_1519-0202/2803108?backurl=https%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dOuS4188%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1851%26so%3d 2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3djoh n%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dho*er%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy %3d1832%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26msfng%3dfranci s%26msfng_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d4%26catbucket%3d rstp%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV%3d1%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Kate's John Horner was the son of William Horner (from marriage cert).

[kiterunner]

I did already look for them as Homer but thanks for trying, Janet.