Fanny Swerner and Rachel Cohen

[Phoenix]

This is the first mention of them together:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1795/40020_189918-00638/85859076?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dhQY9188%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3dlmaelectoralreg %26so%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsln%3dswerner%26gsln_x%3dNN%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d4%2 6catbucket%3dr%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV%3d1%26uidh%3d9vh&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Fanny was nee Cohen. Her husband Israel appears not to have been naturalised, so is on no voting lists.

I cannot find them on the 1939 register ( I assume they are a locked entry at 39 Morgan St)

I don't know whether Rachel - and Ray - Cohen were sisters of Fanny and I can't find Rachel's death to confirm her age (there are three possibles in Croydon)

According to the death entry, Fanny was 79 when she died in Croydon: https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=hQY9188&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&db=onsdeath93&so=2&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsln=swerner&gsln_x=NN&cpxt=1&cp=4&catbucket=r&MSAV=2&MSV=1&uidh=9vh

Rachel appears to have lived with Fanny from 1939 to 1964, when Fanny died.

I need to get Fanny's marriage certificate, but in the meanwhile, can anyone see Fanny and Ray or Rachel together in 1911? Fanny's husband was Russian/Polish.

[Phoenix]

nb Fanny Cohen married Israel Swerner in 1914 in Whitechapel. His brothers married in 1911/12 in Mile End Old Town.

[Sue from Southend]

Possible 1911 wth Rachael https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1911%2frg14%2f01605%2f0433%2f3

And with Roy in 1901 https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1901%2f0012966608

Rachael and Roy seem to be the same person though....

[Phoenix]

That looks good, Sue. I was told that Rachel and Fanny were seamstresses in the East End, no mention of Ray, or what the relationships were. It could be that Ray was a sister in law.

[kiterunner]

Wouldn't Ray be short for Rachel? Or have you found them both together on something?

[Phoenix]

I could have sworn I found them both on an electoral roll, pre war. But with Rebecca Cohen on one side and Rifka Cohen on another, I may have been getting confused :o

[kiterunner]

Oh, I didn't click on your 1939 electoral register link in post #1 before, and I see it does list both Rachel and Ray, but I have definitely seen the same person listed twice under variant names on the same electoral register before (when indexing the absent voters' lists for ancestry's World Archives Project), so that doesn't prove that they are two different people.

[Phoenix]

I hadn't thought of that.
It's a pity its 1939 as there's then that huge gap, but pre 1939 it's Ray and post war Rachel, so your suggestion makes sense.
Sue's family makes sense, and it looks like mmn Levy - if you accept Isaac as a variant of Israel.
Doing this for a friend, but I feel I have to get that marriage cert.
If Sue is correct, the family come from Kalisz in Poland.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1891%2f0282%2f0094&parentid=gbc%2f1891%2f0002477048&highlights=%22%22

[Phoenix]

Well, I have the marriage certificate, and Fanny says her father is Kalman Cohen, deceased.

Israel Cohen died Dec 1913, so I think Israel = Kalman as her address is 3 Eastbury Terrace, as in 1911 census.

To complicate the issue, Israel says he is a widower in 1911, but Jane is on the Electoral Roll for Eastbury Terrace up to 1915 - a Jane Cohen of the right age dies then.

But who is Fanny's mother?

If Israel was married for 26 years, then all his children born in the UK should have the same surname.

There is a possibility that the surname is Morris. This Morris family were lodging with the Cohens in 1891: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7814/LNDRG13_64_66-0689/516613?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/69638571/person/32202903592/facts/citation/680116746384/edit/record

only then they called themselves Klechevski and I have a Fanny mmn Shedolski.

Is it worth risking a cert? (I have just received a wrong cert)

[kiterunner]

It would be easier if I knew what it said on any of the FMP links! Am I right in thinking this is the 1901 census entry that Sue found?
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7814/ESSRG13_1599_1601-0772/9148714?backurl=https%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

59 Harecourt Avenue, East Ham, Essex
Israel Cohen Head M 36 Tailor Poland, Polish subject
Jane Do Wife M 38 Do Polish subject
Philip Do Son S 18 Tailor Do Polish subject
Fanny Do Daur 16 Tailor(ess) apprentice Aldgate England Lond
Israel Do Son 13 Do Do
Jack Do Son 10 Do Do
Roy Do Daur 6 Do Do.

And this must be the 1911 census entry because the address is 3 Eastbury Terrace:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_01605_0433_03?pid=329536&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DCzj12330%26_phstart%3DsuccessSour ce%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3D1911Englan d%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26gskw%3Deas tbury%2520ter*%26gskw_x%3D1%26_83004005-n%3Dwid*%26_83004005-n_x%3D1%26MSAV%3D2%26MSV%3D1%26uidh%3Dvm5%26pcat%3 D35%26fh%3D1%26h%3D329536%26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D 2&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Czj12330&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true
Israel Cohen Head 47 Widower Tailor Russia Poland (Resident)
Philip Cohen Son 27 Single Tailor Russia Poland (Resident)
Fanny Cohen Daughter 25 Single London Whitechapel
Israel Cohen Son 23 Single Tailor London Whitechapel
Jack Cohen Son 20 Single Jeweller (Chain making) London Whitechapel
Rachael Cohen Daughter 16 Single London Whitechapel.

[kiterunner]

And this is the 1891 census entry that you mentioned:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/LNDRG12_281_283-0243/26779896?backurl=https%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co. uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

72 Royal Mint St, Whitechapel
David Posock Head M 22 Tailor Poland, Karlish
Sarah Do Wife M 22 Do Do
Isaac Kletischy Lodger S 25 Glazier Do Do
---
Israel Cohen Head M 26 Tailor Do Do
Jane Do Wife M 28 Do Do
Philip Do Son 8 London Whitechapel
Israel Do Do 2 Do Do
Fanny Do Daur 5 Do Do
---
Morris Kletischy Head M 30 (? or 50?) Glazier Poland, Karlish
Leah Do Wife M 29 Do Do
Lazarus Do Son 8 London Whitechapel
Abraham Do Do 4 Do Do
Rose Do Daur 1 Do Do.
---
William Holden Head M 25 Compositor Do Hackney
Minnie Do Wife M 27 Poland, Karlish
Rebecca Friedman Lodger S 29 (or 19?) Tailoress Do Do

[kiterunner]

I can't find many possible birth regs for Israel jr; guessing his registered name was something different. Looking at possibles for Jack (presumably Jacob?), Fanny, and Rachel, there are births for all those names on the new GRO online index with MMN Cohen, or Fanny and Jacob with MMN Levy and Rachel with MMN Lewis. But of course there are loads of other possibles for each name.

[Phoenix]

Thanks, Kite.

Perhaps I'll take a stab at Cohen. I read somewhere that girls keep their birth names, so that seems a better bet.

[Phoenix]

Phew!

Fanny was the daughter of Israel and Jane Cohen, nee Cohen!
27 June 1885, 2 Ely Place, Chicksand Street.

[kiterunner]

Glad to hear that was the right one.