View Full Version : Scottish relatives
Hi , I have done some research in the past regarding , a Ellen Callen born in Wigan around 1823 . I was told her father William Callen was born in Ashton . But I still believe he was born in Glasgow In early 1800s as I did have a aunt there my memory is vague as I was very small at the time but I thought my mum mentioned what sounded like Ella Keller but she could have also could have been Ellen Callen So I am still pursuing the fact that her father was Scottish . Because I visited Glasgow quite a few times when I was small , staying at different houses there . My father also worked up in Scotland for quite a few years . Any help to find out more info would be great happy new year to you all Qwackers
Likely bap for Ellen:
Ellen Callen born 1 Feb 1824 bap 17 Apr 1824 at Wigan, All Saints parents William (a miner) and Ciceley
1841 census:
William Calland 40 coal miner
Ciceley Calland 35
Ellen Calland 15
Mary Calland 15
Elizabeth Calland 15
Richard Calland 10
Thomas Calland 6
Margret Calland 2
All say Yes for born in County (so born in Lancashire)
I don't have time to type out the 1851 census now, but William (surname Colland on Ancestry) aged 53 says he was born at Ashton Lancashire. The other people with him confirm it's the same family as above. Did whoever tell you this get it from this census or somewhere else?
There are several places called Ashton in Lancs. I can think of Ashton under Lyne and Ashton in Makerfield, but there may well be more.
I know you said Scotland, but having an aunt there in the 20thC seems a long way from someone born there (or not born there!!) in the 18thC!
Ashton in Makerfield is 3 miles from Wigan so I wondered if this is your William:
Baptism: 24 Jan 1796 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
William Calland - second Son of William Calland & Ann (formerly Lea)
Born: 31 Dec
Abode: Haigh
Occupation: Weaver
Mother's Parents: Thomas & Betty Lea
Register: Baptisms 1779 - 1799, Page 395
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives
Hi , thanks merry , yes I went down that route before , and saw William born in Ashton near Wigan . Could be the one , but still looking for the Scottish link . Ellen Callen had her sons in Glasgow in 1854 and 1855 in Milton and later had another child in another area before coming back to Lancashire . I know people went looking for work wherever but it's a long way from Wigan at that time I don't understand why the names have changed from Callen to collard . If that William is the right one . I know they could have not been able to read or write , so that could be a reason . But there are quite a few Callen s in glasgow .will keep searching thanks for your help
Cisely Calland married William Calland in 1823 in Warrington if these or the right people , I've tried to obtain this marriage certificate but been unable to find where I can get it front as this may help any ideas ? Thanks
kiterunner
03-01-18, 10:22
There is at least one old thread about these people, maybe more than one. I will find them and post the links.
kiterunner
03-01-18, 10:25
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=21594
and
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=20749&highlight=calland
Could you please let me know if either of these accounts belongs to you so I can merge it with the one you are currently using?
kiterunner
03-01-18, 10:29
Cisely Calland married William Calland in 1823 in Warrington if these or the right people , I've tried to obtain this marriage certificate but been unable to find where I can get it front as this may help any ideas ? Thanks
As they married before 1837, there is no GRO marriage certificate to order, but this is the church record:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2576/4423497_00409/49484751?backurl=https%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co. uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
William Calland and Cicely Walker, both of the parish of Warrington, by banns 31 Aug 1823, witnesses Edward Fell and William Webster. William Webster is witness on quite a few marriages so probably not related.
kiterunner
03-01-18, 13:31
Qwackers, is one of those other accounts yours, please? (Bearkins or Anglosaxon.)
Yes bearkins was mine , I think the other one was my daughters account thanks
kiterunner
04-01-18, 08:56
Thanks. I have merged the Bearkins account into yours, Qwackers.
Hi , I have been pondering about the Scottish connection , could it not be that the connection is not Ellen Callen , but William Grimshaw born in 1854 in Glasgow could is grand father have been Scottish , as there are quite a few Grimshaws in Glasgow can we look into that . Thanks
Sorry I mean great grand father as I think William Grimshaw father was born in Blackrod . In Lancashire . I was speaking to a relative of mine who I haven't seen for a long time , and they agreed that there was a auntie in Glasgow , as my mum and dad would visit her when in Scotland . Thanks
I have been looking for a reason why people would move to Scotland in the 1830s , a lot of Irish people were encouraged to move there to have a better quality of life and there was a shortage of workers . It was a big pull factor . The same reason may have applied to people moving from England . The living in the court houses was probably horrendous , and I suppose if you thought it would be better you would take a chance .
Hi , I have been pondering about the Scottish connection , could it not be that the connection is not Ellen Callen , but William Grimshaw born in 1854 in Glasgow could is grand father have been Scottish , as there are quite a few Grimshaws in Glasgow can we look into that . Thanks
Have you looked back on this thread yet?
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?t=15271&highlight=william+grimshaw+1854
I think you would do better to find out exactly who this aunt or great aunt was who you used to visit in Scotland/Glasgow. If she is a descendant of family in Scotland from much further back I don't see how she can be your aunt or great aunt, but it might be simpler to work out if we knew who she was.
So you are thinking about the paternal great-grandfather of William Grimshaw b 1854 in Glasgow?
From that other thread we know his father was b about 1825-9ish in Wigan/Blackrod (various census records). When that William Grimshaw married Ellen Callard in 1844 he didn't give a father's name at the marriage, but you have his father as William Grimshaw b Backrod?
Please could you post up everything you know about William sr from Blackrod, so we don't repeat the same lookups. Thanks.
I see two years ago we spent time unsuccessfully trying to sort out the baptism for illegitimate William X b about 1825-9.
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?p=315396&highlight=william+grimshaw+blackrod#post315396
We seem to have given up before coming to a conclusion. Did you find anything more? I'm a but confused as to how his paternal grandfather is a Grimshaw when his father seems to be unknown (ie the great-grandfather and grandfather of William b 1854).
No we didn't find anything else out from that . So the matter was unconcluded And the trail went cold as we couldn't find the right person .
No we didn't find anything else out from that . So the matter was unconcluded And the trail went cold as we couldn't find the right person .
I'm not sure which post you are referring to.
kiterunner
09-07-18, 19:14
Presumably post #17.
Hi , I am trying to carry on with looking for the birth of William callen in Lancashire around 1801 I'm going by that date as rough idea of age from 1841 census . As his name may have not changed until later . As I have seen his daughters baptism Ellen on paper and it does say fathers name William callen . So when I see that the birth that was found in Ashton of a William calland may not be him ,or the one in Haigh . Can I have your thoughts on that .
kiterunner
12-11-19, 08:38
Surname spellings didn't tend to be fixed at that time, so Callen and Calland could easily be the same person.
So do you think he was born callen or calland as is name on her birth certificate is Callen . And would he have been given the document ? Thanks
kiterunner
12-11-19, 11:41
If he is the one who married Cicely Walker (in 1823) then he "made his mark" in the marriage register, i.e. wrote an X instead of signing his name, as did she, so it looks likely that they couldn't read or write, and would not have known how their surname should be spelt, regardless of whether they were given certificates.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2576/4423497_00409/49484751?backurl=https%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co. uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Yes I understand , but I am going off Ellen's birth certificate where it says her father is William Callen . But I understand that could have not been how their name was written later . It's only a odd persons certificates I've seen where they have done a signiture . But if I am searching for a person named calland and they are a callen ,surely I am not going to find the correct person. And that's what I want to try and avoid
kiterunner
12-11-19, 15:38
They are both just different versions of the same name. The same person could have been written down as either version at different times.
But if I am searching for a person named calland and they are a callen ,surely I am not going to find the correct person. And that's what I want to try and avoid
That's why many sites have an option for variable spellings. Having said that, you may need quite a lot of experience with a site to learn how their spelling options work - some sites will give a lot more variations than others. On Ancestry I don't use any of the spelling variant options, preferring to control the results myself. Searching for this person I might try Cal*n*, to cover the chances of there being one of two Ls in the middle and a N somewhere towards then end of the name!
Names might easily be spelled more than one way within the course of a single document, so don't think of it as a name change - just phonetic spelling.
Yes I understand Its up to who is doing th transcript ,and theresagoodchqncethey may mispell them . Thanks
Hi ,Merry in the earlier post you found a birth of a William calland in Haigh , if this is my relative is there any way of proving that it's him ? And I am now going to try and trace William and cicelys children going forwards in Wigan , perhaps a few didn't survive but it's worth trying to see where they went etc . Thanks
The All Saints, Wigan baptism record is more helpful than most in that it tells you the baby was a second son and also the maiden name of the mother and the names of her parents.
Absolute proof is difficult, but you would need to look and see what happened to the parents and siblings of this William, plus look for an alternative future for the child baptised in 1796. Discovering whether the family stayed in the same place or not, plus whether there were any later connections between members of the family should help you to determine if it's likely this William is your William or not.
EDIT: remember Haigh is the other side of Wigan from Ashton in Makerfield and we also don't know which Ashton William was referring to on the 1851 census.
Hi ,yes I understand , it is difficult , but it's interesting , places like Ashton in makerfield near Wigan had mines surrounding the area ,and lots of miners moved around for work in the area , so seeing William living in Ashton wouldn't have been unusual .and is marriage in Warrington again not unusual . Because that is certainly him marrying cicely Walker . Who was from Upholland .these places are all in reach with one another . So I will try and find link as you have suggested . Thanks
HI I think the census mentioning Ashton is him as cicely is there . But like you said we don't know what Ashton it was Ashton under lyne is in Cheshire and Ashton is approx four miles from Wigan . and he has put county Lancashire . But whether he would have known county or not I wouldn't know . I have looked on st Thomas online in Ashton in makerfield which used to come under Winwick . There are plenty of Callands on them but I couldn't find a matching date for Williams birth I will see if I can check the Ashton under lyne . Just has a matter of course . Thanks
I don't think Ashton-under-Lyne has ever been in Cheshire. It's currently part of Greater Manchester and was historically in Lancashire. Ashton upon Mersey, on the other hand, did used to be in Cheshire.
Hi ,Merry , your right , so it is in Lancashire . So really he still could have been born there . So I am no wiser lol I checked the Ashton under lyne records and a lot of the church records only start late 1800 s . But I'll do another search .
I note that, for what it's worth, William and Cicely were living in Ashton in Makerfield in 1834.
I checked the Ashton under lyne records and a lot of the church records only start late 1800 s .
Which church were you looking at? St Michael's start in the 1650s!
Hi ,I'm having no luck finding Williams birth even on the online parish clerks . So am stuck for now .
So have you eliminated the one in 1796?
I think , the date of births don't tally , the census says he was born in Ashton whichever Ashton , born around 1798 the other with mother Ann lea was born in Haigh which is at least five miles away . I don't have a clue your probably the best one to say which is correct or not . Then I can at least eliminate one . Thanks
I think 1796 is around 1798! As I've said before, you need to trace the family of Wm and Ann forward to try and identify if there is a reason the 1796 baptism can't be your William. For instance if he died at a different time or married someone else etc.
Also look at the names of his siblings and see if any of those names are repeated in his family and/or the families of his siblings.
Hi , I will do as you suggest see what I come up with thanks
Here's a good example of how these things can be tricky to work out!
I saw this baptism:
Baptism: 23 Mar 1817 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
William Calland - 1st. Son of William Calland & Esther
Born: 7 Feb
Abode: Haigh
Occupation: Miner
...and thought the father might be the man bap in 1796, so he wouldn't be your William as yours was a bachelor when he married Cicely.
However, it turns out the father at the above baptism is probably actually named Richard! There is a marriage in 1816 for Richard and Esther and the first of their subsequent male children is recorded as second son. William (b 1817) is with his parents Richard and Esther and the correct siblings in 1841.
HI , I have looked to see if William and Ann lea had other children , these could be they born in Wigan Ann Calland born1793 Rachel Calland born 1790 Hamlet Calland born 1791 and Robert Calland born 1800 and of course William Calland born 1796 , may be
I think we established the marriage of William and Ann in 1785 in Wigan .
If Hamlet is one of there children , I found him , he married a Lydia Caron in Walton on the hill in 1821 , they had these children William 1821 ,Elizabeth 1822 Edward 1825 Mary 1829 ,born around west Derby Liverpool and Walton on the hill . I find the name hamlet unusual ,but it may have been common then .
Checked the marriage and her name was Eaton ,not Caron .
HI , I have looked to see if William and Ann lea had other children , these could be they born in Wigan Ann Calland born1793 Rachel Calland born 1790 Hamlet Calland born 1791 and Robert Calland born 1800 and of course William Calland born 1796 , may be
You missed out the first and second daughters - Rachel, the earliest you listed above says third daughter on the baptism. There's also these two:
Ellen 28 May 1786, says first daughter
Betty 24 Feb 1788, says second daughter
Hi , did you see my post with regards to hamlet calland ?thanks
ElizabethHerts
17-11-19, 17:04
I don't know if you have seen this, but perhaps it has more information:
https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/M4Z5-937/hamlet-calland-1791
Hi , did you see my post with regards to hamlet calland ?thanks
Yes, I did.
Olde Crone
17-11-19, 19:00
This may be completely irrelevant but the abode jumped out - yes, I know it's Aberdeen and not Glasgow, but....
Baptism All Saints Wigan 18 Mar 1867
Robert Calland born 17 Feb, son of Robert Calland and Dorothy, Collier. Abode Aberdeen.
Robert Calland m Dorothy Baldwin 1862.
OC
Edited to say - 8th child born in Ashton in Makerfield.
Do you think it a line to pursue ? Thanks
HI old crone it may be worth a shot ,I'll look into it ,yes and Aberdeen inpsnt Glasgow but it's Scotland . Thanks
IM Not on ancestry I only use family search and parish clerks , if you can see anything with regards to this I would be grateful .as I'm stuck with the Scottish connection . I do remember staying with a relatives s in Scotland , and my mum often talked about an aunt or relative when I was growing up ,but I can't find any links only that my great great grandfather was born in Glasgow . He moved back down in the 1860s . So I can't find any other connection . Thanks
It's weird as the baby was born in Feb in Wigan district and baptised in the same area almost exactly a month later, yet with the abode Aberdeen. I wonder if it was actually just the father who was away for a short time?
I'm not sure how a short time living in Aberdeen makes a difference to anything? On Robert's marriage certificate his father is Wlliam Calland, collier.
You should be able to find all this information below from FS and Lancs OPC.
Robert's age on the census returns is all over the place (1828-1837!), possibly because Dorothy may have been older than him. Having said that, this seems to be his baptism:
Baptism: 22 Feb 1835 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Robert Calland - 3 Son of William Calland & Elizabeth
Born: 1 Apr 1834
Abode: Scholes
Occupation: Miner
Robert is with his parents in 1851 and 1861. There is good 'proof' this is the correct Robert as in 1861 he has four year old Sarah Baldwin in the same house (granddaughter to the householder, William) and she is Sarah Callard, daughter to Robert, in 1871. Robert's father, William, was born about 1805/7 in Haigh according to those two census records.
Of course, I can't see a clear-cut baptism for this William, but I'm sure he will be related to your line in some way, so his children and grandchildren will presumably be cousins of some sort to your line.
Olde Crone
18-11-19, 13:24
Merry
I was thinking that Robert may have been away working in Aberdeen and staying with relatives. He obviously returned home, but maybe the relatives stayed in Scotland and moved sideways to Glasgow. There are millions of Callen/Callands in Scotland unfortunately.
OC
I don't think Qwackers has ever told us who her aunt was who lived in Scotland.
Hi ,I don't know what the aunts name was all I remember that the children we played with in Scotland were called cherry and bimbo now they are unusual first names and that's all I know the house was on the side of a lake , my dad worked for a Scottish firm around Aberdeen which may be coincidental then maybe not thanks maybe you have found a connection it's how to piece it all together thanks
Olde Crone
19-11-19, 16:32
I doubt if Bimbo was a proper name, sounds like a pet name. No one called Bimbo anything registered on Scotland's People. Lots of females called Cherry, none called Callen or Calland.
OC
so we seem to be stuck now , I realise that people travelled in the 1850 , but it makes me wonder why a couple would move from Wigan where there were lots of mines etc to move to Glasgow to work . Like William Grimshaw and Ellen Callen . Unless one of them had relatives , that's my thoughts . Maybe it was common to move up there at that time . Let me know your thoughts ,as there are lots of Callens callands even Grimshaws in Glasgow .
In Jan 2015 you said:
I have got ellen callen's child's record from Glasgow
and also:
ellen callen and William grimshaws sons James and William were born in Glasgow in 1854 and 1856 . I think they may have had another child in Scotland . They seem to move back to live in skelmersdale as they appear on the 1861 census .
The 1861 census shows they had at least three children born in Scotland, all between 1851 and 1861:
Warrington Rd, Wigan, Lancashire
William Grimshaw Head Mar 32 Coal Miner Lancashire Wigan
Ellen Do Wife Mar 40 Do Do
Margaret Do Daur U 15 Cotton Factory Worker Do Do
William Do Son 6 Scholar Scotland
James Do Son 4 Scholar Do
Ellen Do Daur 2 Do
Sicily Do Daur 2 mo Do Ince.
You don't say (at least I can't find you saying!) which child you have the Scottish birth record for, but presumably it's one of these two?
GRIMSHAW JAMES M 1856 644/7 1048 Milton (ScotlandsPeople)
and from Family Search:
Name James Grimshaw
Gender Male
Birth Date 29 Sep 1856
Birthplace MILTON,GLASGOW,LANARK,SCOTLAND
Father's Name William Grimshaw
Mother's Name Ellen Callen
GRIMSHAW HELEN F 1858 671/ 69 Torphichen (ScotlandsPeople)
Family Search:
Name Helen Grimshaw
Gender Female
Birth Date 11 Dec 1858
Birthplace TORPHICHEN,WEST LOTHIAN,SCOTLAND
Father's Name William Grimshaw
Mother's Name Helen Cullen
William b 1854/5 may have been born before civil registration started in Scotland.
I don't know if there are addresses on the SP records, but if there are, have you looked at those addresses on the Scottish 1851 and 1861 censuses or the 1855 valuation roll to see if you can get any clues from those?
Note that Torphichen is closer to Edinburgh than Glasgow.
I see there are Grimshaws and Callans in Scotland, but born in England, on the Scottish 1861 census, so you could see if they come from the same part of the world as your family.
Thanks merry ,will check those mentioned
Hi , I've had a look at the grimshaws and Callen s in Scotland and there's a couple that have always stood out and that is Jonathan Grimshaw and Helen Cree . I've seen these quite a long time ago and was wandering if in some way they are a relation? Even a cousin or other . I can only get on family search , and online parish clerks so I can't explore these much more . Thanks
Can you give some dates and what records you have seen for them? EDIT Are they the couple who married in 1848 in Blantyre?
If you are referring to the married 1848 couple, on the Scottish 1871 census transcript on Ancestry Jonathan is recorded as having been born in Halifax, Yorkshire.
On the 1841 census Jonathan Grimshaw aged 21 is in Halifax:
Birk's Lane, Halifax
William Grimshaw 61 fustian cutter
Harriet Grimshaw 57
Jonathan Grimshaw 21 labourer
Martha Grimshaw 18 worsted spinner
Jane Grimshaw 15 ditto
Frances Grimshaw 12 ditto
All born in county except William!
1851 Census:
2 Hobb Houses, Halifax
William Grimshaw head m 71 Pauper b Manchester, Lancs
Harriet Grimshaw wife m 67 b Skircoat, Yorks
Jane Grimshaw dau unm 24 factory worker, worsted weaver b Halifax
Fanny Grimshaw dau unm 22 loom? setter, carpet works b Halifax
Ann Grimshaw granddaughter 9 b Halifax
Martha Grimshaw granddaughter 1m b Halifax
So, William was most likely from Manchester.
This may be his baptism:
William Grimshaw Baptism 30 Apr 1780 Manchester , St Mary, St Denys and St George, parents John and Mary
(the transcription says 25 April)
Hi ,I thought I had seen a census which shows them born in Scotland , I will look later am off out for a while thanks
Not sure who you mean by 'them', but on all the other censuses that include Jonathan Grimshaw his birthplace is 'England'. His wife Helen is recorded as born in Blantyre, Lanarkshire on all her census records and their children were born in various places in Lanarkshire.
Hi ,I'm sorry Merry , it was a shot in the dark with regards to Jonathan . I don't think now looking at where he was born. That he is a relative of ours . But thanks for your great work . X
Hi ,now I am going to try and follow the grimshaws children forward , James and Ellen Margeret and cicely . try and see if they lived and who they married and their children ,as I've never met anyone from that side of the family at all . My grandparents on my dads side were dead before I was born . So it would be good to find someone from the line of the grimshaws . Thanks
I don't remember seeing Margeret on the Scottish census , wondering if she stayed with Granparents in England . When they left for Scotland ? I think I remember you saying that she have been born before William and Ellen got married . But I will still check .
I don't remember seeing Margeret on the Scottish census , wondering if she stayed with Granparents in England . When they left for Scotland ? I think I remember you saying that she have been born before William and Ellen got married . But I will still check .
I don't remember any of them appearing on a Scottish census! Which one was that? Margaret is with her parents in 1851 and 1861. I've not looked after that for her.
William Grimshaw married Ellen Calland 11 Mar 1844 at All Saints Wigan.
As well as the three children born in Scotland mentioned earlier in this thread (William, James and Ellen) I came across this post from kiterunner dated 17 Sep 2012:
Lancs BMD has a birth for Margaret Grimshaw in 1845, sub-district Hindley, mother's maiden name Calland. Also an Elizabeth in 1847, James 1849, Elizabeth 1851, Cecily 1861 and Peter 1865.
So, none of them born before the marriage.
There's also - Mary Grimshaw b 1862 mmn Calland Wigan District in addition to the above. So:
Margaret 1845 Lancs
Elizabeth 1847 Lancs Buried: 4 Feb 1849 Wigan, All Saints, states age 18 months, abode Ince and father William Grimshaw
James 1849 Lancs Died: GRIMSHAW JAMES aged 6 mmn CALLAN 1855 662/ 55 District Bathgate
Elizabeth 1851 Lancs Died: GRIMSHAW, ELIZABETH aged 0 GRO Reference: 1851 S Quarter in WIGAN UNION Volume 21 Page 536
William abt 1854 Scotland
James 1856 Scotland
Ellen 1858 Scotland
Cecily 1861 Lancs Died: GRIMSHAW, CECILY aged 0 GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 42
Mary 1862 Lancs
Peter 1865 Lancs
Which one is your ancestor? William 1854? Which ones, other than him, have you already traced forward?
William Grimshaw. 1854 he is my great great grandfather , I have found a marriage for James , Williams Williams brother , he married a emma Wilson and am following there children at the moment , I have found a daughter named Lavinia who married in Wigan . Thanks
I have found a daughter named Lavinia who married in Wigan . Thanks
She and her husband and son emigrated to Canada in 1924.
Hi that's strange as my dad said he had been to Canada , and I wondered why he went ? They could be the reason . I'll have to double check if it's the right person . I don't think Lavinia was a common name so that may help . Thanks
hi can we find out anymore about them ? Thanks
Hi , I found Lavinia on family search as her birth , but it also said her death was in London Middlesex Ontario . This could be her .
Hi , can we access any immigration records for Canada . I saw some on family search but the were only to 1820 . Any ideas ? Thanks
I don't have any worldwide subs at the moment.
There are several trees on Ancestry with the same information that may or may not be correct:
Lavinia Sharples death 11 Feb 1959 London Middlesex Ontario Canada
John Sharples death 10 Mar 1976 London, Ontario, Canada
Henry Sharples death 31 Aug 1997 London, Middlesex, Ontario, Canada
They also have Henry Sharples marrying Jean Gertrude Brown in May 1940 (no place recorded) and her birth and death: 21 Jan 1917 Westminster Township, Ontario, Canada and 25 May 2008 London, Middlesex, Ontario, Canada
James (1856) had seven other surviving children in 1911 so plenty of people to follow forward. There may also be families for Margaret (1845), Ellen (1858), Mary (1862) and Peter (1865).
Thank , that a start , will try to find out more . I'm afraid I'm not on ancestry but can access it at my library ,so will check later in the week .
To save you a bit of time at the library:
There may also be families for Margaret (1845), Ellen (1858), Mary (1862) and Peter (1865).
Ellen Grimshaw married Alfred Hough in 1875 in Skelmersdale. Witnesses George and Margaret Woodcock. Later census records show Ellen Hough b Scotland.
Margaret Grimshaw married George Woodcock in 1867 in Wigan district.
Mary Grimshaw not yet positively identified after 1881. Looked at three marriages in Wigan district for Mary (no middle name) Grimshaw 1881 to 1891 and none of those seem to be the right one. This could be her (obviously she might have married/died somewhere else, but there are too many Mary's born Ince to cross-reference unless you are really determined!):
Deaths Dec 1883
Grimshaw Mary 20 Wigan 8c 58
Peter Grimshaw married Sarah Brown 1891 (confirmed that's the right marriage by checking mmn for their children against the 1901 census)
Your wonderful , thanks so much .??
The question marks were emojis ,lol
Yes Ellen's birth is recorded as Helen Grimshaw , born trophichen 1858 to Ellen and William Grimshaw . So that's correct .
John and Lavinia. Were living in orrell With Henry as a baby in 1911 , john and Henry were born in Orrell .
Hi , found births of , Alfred and Ellen ,in skelmersdale Henry born in 1875 ,William born in 1877 and Eliza born in 1879 .
I think Alfred's and Ellen's Henry married Jane E simm in Chorley 1901 , it seems to fit they later emigrated to Massachusetts in 1905 , where they had two children , in 1920 they were in Bristol Massachusetts.
I am trying to follow William born 1877 and Eliza 1879 ,marriages
William's death was registered the same Q as his birth.
Deaths Sep 1877
HOUGH William 0 Ormskirk 8b 459
Eliza married in 1902:
Eliza Hough Marriage 8 Nov 1902 Chorley, St James, spouse Joseph Jolly
In 1911 they are together with two children, Elizabeth Ellen, 7, and Eva, 4. They also have an adopted son called Henry Bentley aged 9. Henry's mmn was Hough, so you need to work out how he fits in.
Hi , found births of , Alfred and Ellen ,in skelmersdale Henry born in 1875 ,William born in 1877 and Eliza born in 1879 .
You realise Ellen and Alfred Hough did have more children after 1881?
Hi. Yes I have found quite a few births in Chorley ,with mothers maiden name Grimshaw ,I will have to look at them to make sure who the parents are , so far I've seen a Peter , George Joseph James Thomas and Jane . They may not be the correct parents but I'll check . I think the marriage of Eliza is good as I did see that .
Hi , just Been contacted by Lavinia' s great great granddaughter , who as said they moved to Canada , I don't know where she resides , but I think she has more info on another site , so it will be interesting to see them . So it's great stuff
I've checked a few of the names on family search for births for Alfred and Ellen , and so far have found Joseph 1886 James 1885 Thomas 1883 jane 1882 , just wondering if they had moved to Chorley from skelmersdale , will check the census .
I've checked the 1891 census , with the children of Alfred and Ellen hough , Jane Henry Eliza Thomas and George , the only problem ,Alfred says birthplace Chorley or so it says on the census on family search . So that's thrown me . Is it the correct person . And it says Ellen Grimshaw born Scotland . Have you any ideas ?
Hi. Yes I have found quite a few births in Chorley ,with mothers maiden name Grimshaw ,I will have to look at them to make sure who the parents are , so far I've seen a Peter , George Joseph James Thomas and Jane . They may not be the correct parents but I'll check . I think the marriage of Eliza is good as I did see that .
Peter's death was registered in Q1 1889.
Joseph's death was registered in Q3 1886
James' death was registered in Q3 1885
The others are on the 1891 census as you say in this next post below.
I've checked the 1891 census , with the children of Alfred and Ellen hough , Jane Henry Eliza Thomas and George , the only problem ,Alfred says birthplace Chorley or so it says on the census on family search . So that's thrown me . Is it the correct person . And it says Ellen Grimshaw born Scotland . Have you any ideas ?
Where did you think Alfred was born?
I thought skelmersdale but maybe he was from Chorley
What a shame ,they lost a lot of children in those days it's so sad .
I thought skelmersdale but maybe he was from Chorley
The 1881 census says Chorley, so both censuses say the same!
I agree it is so sad to see how many children some families lost. Alfred and Ellen had more children after 1891 and not all those survived either. (they had three more, but only two of those are on the 1901 census.)
Alfred died in 1903 and Ellen remarried to William Blackledge in 1906. No children from that marriage (1911 census). On the 1911 census after William and Ellen recorded the people in their household, there is a line which reads:
First married (and then in the children's births section) 11, 7, 4
It then looks like a second person was going to write something similar as they wrote "2 ditto" under the "First married" but no numbers for children.
I think maybe 11,7,4 relate to Ellen's first family as up to 1891 you have five living children and three dec'd children. If 1891 to 1901 brings two more living children and one more dec'd child, then the numbers tie up. Looking back very briefly at William Blackledge - he didn't have a large family before marrying Ellen.
Thanks merry your a genius
Hi ,Merry Lavinia 's great great granddaughter has given me lots of info on ancestry . She lives in Canada ,and is in contact with me which is very nice , thanks for your help .
Hi , I have been researching marriages for the surviving houghs , you found Eliza married to Joseph jolly , I found Jane , married Edward Stuart 1902 Chorley Thomas married Betsy foster 1906 George married Bertha brindle 1909 . The Henry Bentley , you mentioned who was adopted by Eliza is a mystery . I've looked for a birth for him and can't find any in the area , but are a few in Stafford and around that area .
Hi ,according to the 1911 census Henry Bentley was born in appley bridge , my daughter lives there now . Will see if I can find him .
Hi , have found Henry Bentley , mothers maiden name Hough born 1901 upholland district . Maybe Elia had him before she was married , ?
Hi , have found Henry Bentley , mothers maiden name Hough born 1901 upholland district . Maybe Elia had him before she was married , ?
Could easily be that, but there are a few Hough/Bentley marriages about and I couldn't see a baptism for Henry to help. The only way to know for sure may be to get a copy of the birth certificate.
Hi , maybe I will have to do that . I am now tracking William Grimshaw ,and Ellen callands other children .i looked at Peter and found him married to a Sarah from Rainford living in skelmersdale . Don't know what year they got married . Was checking their children William Age 17 in 1911 in particular , but finding it difficult to find who he married . It keeps coming up with an emigration to Quebec . So I'm trying to follow Peter age 6 in 1911 Ernest age 4 and James age 15 . Have you any ideas , as I can't find them at the moment
I suppose it's possible that if Alfred's and Ellen's son moved to America. That other relatives could have gone too at a later stage .
Im on a train at the moment, so not great for searching. Look for the birth registrations for their children to get the mmn if you are still looking for the parents marriage. Re William, when you are at the library check Ww1 records and also look for deaths for him, plus 1939 register. No doubt there will be several possibles so you might have to try and eliminate!
Re your post 106, Peter was 8 not 6 in 1911. His birth was reg Q2 1902. There is a Peter on the 1939 register birth May 1902. Wife is prob Hilda (I only looked at the transcript).
Sorry I'm going nuts ,William Grimshaw married Ann Robinson , my my great grandmother , I've been searching so many things it's haddled my brain lol . So I don't need to check him or her .
Hi , Merry , hope you have a good journey ,on the train , as I know too well it can be a bind , I am now tracking Mary William and Ellen's daughter , who I believe married George Flowers in 1876 , I think it's definely her as father , fits and witnesses were James and Emma Grimshaw . I think they had lots of children , I believe she was only sixteen when she married , the children I can see are cicely , Charles, William, Margeret Jane , Charles Sarah , there seems to be two williams so maybe one died . One was 8 in 1891 and the other 18 . Unless the census had a anomaly. So I can try and follow these children unless some of them died .
Sorry I'm going nuts ,William Grimshaw married Ann Robinson , my my great grandmother , I've been searching so many things it's haddled my brain lol . So I don't need to check him or her .
I thought you were talking about William, son of Peter and Sarah, not William your ancestor (in post #106).
Hi , Merry , hope you have a good journey ,on the train , as I know too well it can be a bind , I am now tracking Mary William and Ellen's daughter , who I believe married George Flowers in 1876 , I think it's definely her as father , fits and witnesses were James and Emma Grimshaw . I think they had lots of children , I believe she was only sixteen when she married , the children I can see are cicely , Charles, William, Margeret Jane , Charles Sarah , there seems to be two williams so maybe one died . One was 8 in 1891 and the other 18 . Unless the census had a anomaly. So I can try and follow these children unless some of them died .
Not sure what you mean about 8 and 18? There's only one William in the 1891 household - he is 8. There are none in the 1881 census.
it may be what i had written , as you know what your doing unlike me lol
the children I can see are cicely , Charles, William, Margeret Jane , Charles Sarah , there seems to be two williams so maybe one died . One was 8 in 1891 and the other 18 .
You have two Charles' listed above as well as mentioning two Williams!
On the 1881 census they have two living children, Mary Ellen 3 and Cicely 2. You haven't mentioned either of them, so did you look at the 1881 or 1891 census as they are on both? Here are the birth registrations for those two:
FLEWERS, MARY ELLEN mmn GRIMSHAW
GRO Reference: 1877 D Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 64
FLEWERS, CICELY GRIMSHAW
GRO Reference: 1879 M Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 869
I looked for other birth registrations 1876-1881, but didn't find any.
On to 1891.... by the 1891 census they had another three living children, Charles 10, William 8 and Margaret Jane 2. Here are their registrations:
FLEWERS, CHARLES mmn GRIMSHAW
GRO Reference: 1882 M Quarter in WHITEHAVEN Volume 10B Page 559
FLOWERS, WILLIAM mmn GRIMSHAW
GRO Reference: 1884 J Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 151
FLOWERS, MARGARET JANE mmn GRIMSHAW
GRO Reference: 1889 S Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 10
There's also this birth:
FLEWERS, GEORGE mmn GRIMSHAW
GRO Reference: 1886 J Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 08B Page 803
George's death was registered in Q2 1888 in Wigan district.
By 1901 they have one more living child:
FLOWERS, SARAH mmn GRIMSHAW
GRO Reference: 1894 S Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 74
There's also Henry:
FLOWERS, HENRY mmn GRIMSHAW
GRO Reference: 1896 D Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 112
who died Q3 1897.
In 1911 Mary Grimshaw (Flowers) is a widow so she hasn't filled in the part about number of children born.
Here's her husband's death:
Deaths Jun 1901
Flowers George 53 Wigan 8c 68
and a likely death for Mary:
Deaths Jun 1925
FLOWERS Mary 65 Wigan 8c 21
So, I can only see one Charles and one William. If the 18 year-old William you mentioned was that age in 1891 (I don't know that it was, as I'm struggling to find whatever it was you did) then he would have been born when Mary was aged only about 11, so that seems extremely unlikely.
hi ,merry im sorry i am not as meticulous as you are probably spot on .Ive been using family search org a lot recently .Has i am not on ancestry which i think is the better site . so your research is definetly better than mine .
hi probably looked at the 1881 census .
hi sorry its the 1891 census i looked at ive checked what i have written have put the children down as i saw them on Family search , Ill double check as i did think it was strange when i saw the two williams . will look now
Here's the 1891 census copied and pasted from Family Search:
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
George Flowers Head M 41 London, England
Mary Flowers Wife F 33 Lancashire, England
Mary Ellen Flowers Daughter F 14 Lancashire, England
Cicely Flowers Daughter F 13 Lancashire, England
Charles Flowers Son M 10 Cumberland, England
William Flowers Son M 8 Lancashire, England
Margt Jane Flowers Daughter F 2 Lancashire, England
Only one William and only one Charles!
Here's the 1881 census, also from Family Search:
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
George Flowers Head M 32 London, Middlesex, England
Mary Flowers Wife F 20 Ince, Lancashire, England
Mary Ellen Flowers Daughter F 3 Wigan, Lancashire, England
Secilia Flowers Daughter F 2 Skelmersdale, Lancashire, England
hi ,Merry ,thanks , great work as usual .
hi merry , do you think these are accurate , as i thought George was born in skelmersdale ? and on his marriage in 1877 he was 27 and she was 16 ? you know more about these things than me ?
Tell me why you think George was born in Skelmersdale.
Was it the 1876 marriage certificate?
Hi ,is the census definetly correct as i thought george was born in skelmersdale ? thanks
hi , sorry merry , it just says the marriage is in skelmersdale ,maybe i assumed , but obviously wrongly as it states born London .
that is ,the censuses states ,london , so it is as you say .
hi . i want to search now for the flowers children's marriages .
So, for ref:
Mary Ellen Flowers b reg 1877 Q4 Wigan
Cicely Flowers b reg 1879 Q1 Skelmersdale
Charles Flowers b reg 1882 Q1 West Cumberland
William Flowers b reg 1884 Q2 Upholland
Margaret Jane Flowers b reg 1889 Q3 Ince
Sarah Flowers b reg 1894 Q3 Ince
Mary Ellen married 22 Dec 1894 in Skelmersdale to William Woodcock aged 25 bachelor miner, father George Woodcock miner. She was 19 spinster, both resided at Skelmersdale. Her father George Flowers miner. Both signed, witnesses William Brown (mark) and Sarah Grimshaw.
Cicely married Thomas Jackson 1898 Q2 Wigan
Charles not found after 1901.
William married 29 Dec 1906 at St James Wigan to Mary Jane Holden aged 26 spinster of 62 Poolstock Lane, father Alexander Holden reed maker. He was 23 bachelor labourer of 11 Oldfield St father George Flowers dec'd pit sinker. Both signed, witnesses John Holden and Sarah Ann Bithell, both signed.
Margaret Jane:
Marriage: 1 Jul 1914 Christ Church, Ince, Lancashire, England
Thomas Donaldson - 31, Miner, Bachelor, 7 Taylor's Yard, Bolton Street
Margaret Jane Flowers - 25, Spinster, 19 Bolton Street
Groom's Father: Alexander Donaldson, Striker
Bride's Father: George Flowers, (deceased), Striker
Witness: Frederick Sumner; Florence Sumner
Married by Banns by: James Neale Vicar
Sarah married 26 Jun 1909 at St Thomas' Wigan to Joseph Baxter aged 19 bachelor collier of 2 Herbert St. Father Peter Baxter overlooker. She was 19 spinster of 2 Herbert St father George Flowers dec'd collier. Both signed, witnesses Edward Ramsdale and Elizabeth Baxter, both signed.
your so wonderful .thanks so much
hi ,found lots of births for Margeret and John Donaldson , Mary Jane 1914,Sarah,1916,
Mary Ellen 1916, ****** 1921, *******1922, ****** 1924, and ******** 1925 , found a few marriages up to now , ******* married ******* ***** 1841 wigan ****** Married ******** ****** 1956 ******* ********* married ****** ***** 1956 , just have to double check these at the moment .
I was concentrating ,on ******** as his name was unusual , found a birth , couldn't find a death , but couldn't find a marriage , there are a few Donaldson emmigrating to america ,as he seems to have disappeared unless you can find him as i am not on ancestry . ? thanks
Please remember our forum rules say not to post details of living people without their consent, so I have removed the names of some people from your last two posts.
With regard to the man with the unusual first name, you don't need Ancestry to find him - his birth (1925) and marriage (1951) are on FreeBMD.
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
I think he and his wife are still living and are in the UK.
that would be fantastic if they are ,i'm so sorry ,i forgot that they may be living . oops .
yes i've seen the marriage on free bmd and they are in west bromwich . thanks merry .
I've just noticed it's the husband who is still living. His wife died in 2002.
hi ,I think the had a child born in 1959 ? can you make sure it's the right one please ,
I already answered your pm.
It's not possible to be 100% sure without buying the certificate, but it's a likely match.
It's very important to know whether the mother was a spinster at the marriage, if you are going to use her maiden name to look for births! Yes, she was (1939 Register).
do you know what the middle name was ,it would be quite helpful ? thanks . As i've found a possible marriage in staffordshire . but i could check if the middle name is used ? thanks
No, I don't know the middle name from the birth registration. I could only see one marriage with the correct middle initial though.
hi ,I found quite a few Charles marriages on free bmd from around early nineteen hundreds , some of them have middle names . and are not around the wigan area , it's possible he may have married outside of the area . can you help ?
I couldn't find him in 1911, 1939 or a death, so I wasn't really looking for a marriage.
If you are intent on finding a marriage, then you need to make a list of all Charles Flowers' born across a wide date spread and then see if you can eliminate any of the marriages by linking other Charles Flowers to those marriages and proving each one as best you can. Hopefully you will only be looking at a small list of unidentified marriages at the end - then you would most likely need to buy the certificates for the remaining men to see if any of them had the right detail to fit your man. You could do a similar thing with death registrations. You might need to include Flewer too and with or without the S on the end.
I think I did look briefly at army records for 1901 onwards plus WW1, but being a miner was a reserved occupation, so he may not have served. Having said that, lots of miners did have a role in WW1.
You could also try looking in Scotland. I'm afraid it's so long since I posted about him, I don't remember if I looked there or not! There's also emigration records to consider too. Perhaps he left the UK between 1901 and 1911?
As you have traced some of his siblings lines forward, maybe you should concentrate on them as it's possible someone will know what happened to him and save you loads of work!
hi ,yes it may be very difficult to find Charles ,as there are a few marriages all over the place ,and like you said he could have emigrated or something else . if he may have had a middle name it would have been helpful . i would like to say a Happy Christmas and NewYear ,and thanks for your great help will continue my search . x
Hi merry i found a charles flower on a immigration paper to quebec . how can i see if it his him . is there any canadian census ,which i could search ? thanks
is there any canadian census ,which i could search ?
On Family Search or FMP.
Hi I was wondering if you can look on the G.R.O register for me as i'm having problems logging on . I'm searching for births from 1892 to 1915 , for ellen and william brown ellen's mmn woodcock . around the lathom ormskirk or skelmersdale . I've checked the parish clerks . and lancs Bmd . but have only found one up to now and that was for florence ,in 1892 Thanks
The May 1892 marriage entry for William James Brown and Ellen Woodcock in Skelmersdale gives their ages as 23 and 19 respectively. He has signed Walter James Brown.
On the 1901 census William is Walter again, but confirming it's them Ellen's father, George Woodcock (same as recorded at the 1892 marriage) is also in the household.
Childen listed are:
Florence 8
Alfred 6
Walter J 4
Jessie 2
all born Skelmersdale
In 1911 additional children are
Cicely 10
Nellie 8
Arthur 6
Harry 2
Minnie 8 months
Ellen says she has delivered 9 children and 8 are still living.
I don't know how you managed to only find one birth on LancsBMD as they are all there! I didn't look at the GRO site because it's so much quicker to use LancsBMD:
BROWN Florence WOODCOCK 1892 Lathom Preston LAT/30/72
BROWN Alfred WOODCOCK 1895 Lathom Preston LAT/32/89
BROWN Walter James WOODCOCK 1897 Lathom Preston LAT/34/20
BROWN Jessie WOODCOCK 1899 Lathom Preston LAT/35/86
BROWN Cicely WOODCOCK 1901 Lathom Preston LAT/37/28
BROWN Nellie WOODCOCK 1903 Lathom Preston LAT/38/63
BROWN Arthur WOODCOCK 1905 Lathom Preston LAT/39/99
BROWN Harry WOODCOCK 1908 Lathom Preston LAT/42/57
BROWN Minnie WOODCOCK 1910 Lathom Preston LAT/44/36
The last seven children are on the 1911 census, so it's either Florence or Alfred who had probably died.
This is the only match I could see (FreeBMD):
Deaths Sep 1904 (>99%)
BROWN Alfred 9 Ormskirk 8b 706
I did have a look to see if William was Walter at birth. This is his registration:
Births Mar 1869 (>99%)
Brown Walter James Shrewsbury 6a 710
Despite Ellen being 38 in 1911 there don't seem to be any further children. In 1921 the children listed with Walter and Ellen are:
Nellie 18
Arthur 16
Harry 13
Minnie 11
They are still living in Skelmersdale.
thank you so much for that , have a good day x
vBulletin® v3.8.7 PL3, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.