View Full Version : Sarah Bridges ...
late Brown formerly Williams.
This is the mother's details on a birth certificate.
I'm just clarifying she was born Sarah Williams, married Mr Brown and then married John Bridges?
John and Sarah are the parents of my Joseph Bridges born 1843 in Whitechapel.
I've posted about them before but was wondering if someone could look (again) for a marriage for John and Sarah for me. New records come online all the time and I might have missed something.
This is the 1841 census details Class: HO107; Piece 691; Book: 8; Civil Parish: Bethnal Green; County: Middlesex; Enumeration District: 15; Folio: 9; Page: 9.
John died in 1847 at Tower Hamlets. I have Sarah on census' until 1871, she possibly died Sarah Brydges in 1874 in Poplar London (from freeBMD).
Thanks for looking again
kiterunner
01-12-17, 09:00
Yes, it means she was born Williams and then married a Brown. I can't find a marriage to John Bridges at the moment. Have you already worked out who the parents are for each of the other children on the 1841 census?
Sarah b 1831, Frederick b 1834, Francis b 1837, Elizabeth b 1840 are all children of John and Sarah as I either have a baptism or they are on the 1851 census. Richard b abt 1827 disappears after 1841. I assume he is their child but have no evidence.
Child Sarah marries a Mr Watts but I can not find a marriage or first name and he died between the 1861-1871 census and she then married Charles Bower.
If I disappear I've gone to bed. I'm exhausted. I'm not ignoring you
kiterunner
01-12-17, 10:55
Sarah b 1831, Frederick b 1834, Francis b 1837, Elizabeth b 1840 are all children of John and Sarah as I either have a baptism or they are on the 1851 census. Richard b abt 1827 disappears after 1841. I assume he is their child but have no evidence.
Child Sarah marries a Mr Watts but I can not find a marriage or first name and he died between the 1861-1871 census and she then married Charles Bower.
When you say "I either have a baptism or they are on the 1851 census", which ones do you have baptisms for, please?
Francis and Elizabeth have baptisms, the others say son or daughter on the 1851 census.
Elizabeth was baptised with her younger brother Joseph, in 1845. The baptism says abode Charlotte St which matches Joseph's birth certificate.
In 1851 Sarah Snr is living in Colchester St, which is the same street husband died in in 1847.
kiterunner
01-12-17, 12:42
So Sarah jr and Frederick might not be John's children?
On another thread we have a Richard Brown marrying Sarah Williams in Feb 1827 .....erm.....somewhere in London. But we couldn't find baps for Richard jr or Sarah to fit with that.
I don't know whether Toni knows what happened to Richard (the one aged 14 in 1841)?
kiterunner
01-12-17, 15:11
In post #3 above she says he disappeared after 1841, so I suppose not.
He might have called himself Brown (as he doesn't seem to have been bap as a Bridges) after he left home, making him pretty invisible! lol
kiterunner
01-12-17, 15:35
There is a Richard Brown burial 16 Jun 1844 at St John, Hoxton, age 17. Abode Old Street Road. I think the other name on this record might be who paid for the burial, but I'm not sure what it says. Lyns?
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1559/31280_195080-00098/8817383?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dCtf5604%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3dlmadeaths%26so% 3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dric*%26g sfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dbrown*%26gsln_x%3d1%26MS_AdvCB% 3d1%26msddy%3d1844%26msddy_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3 d11%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26M SV%3d1&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
That's what it looks like to me.
There is a Richard Brown burial 16 Jun 1844 at St John, Hoxton, age 17. Abode Old Street Road. I think the other name on this record might be who paid for the burial, but I'm not sure what it says. Lyns?
Could it be the doctor who certified? The names crop up on other pages.
So Sarah jr and Frederick might not be John's children?
It's possible. I'll look for baptisms for surname Brown.
On another thread we have a Richard Brown marrying Sarah Williams in Feb 1827 .....erm.....somewhere in London. But we couldn't find baps for Richard jr or Sarah to fit with that.
I've not noted that on my tree. Not sure why but it would fit with Richard being born in 1827.
There is a Richard Brown burial 16 Jun 1844 at St John, Hoxton, age 17. Abode Old Street Road. I think the other name on this record might be who paid for the burial, but I'm not sure what it says. Lyns?
It could be Lyus. OH has some Lyus in his tree and it is often mistranscribed as Lyns or looks like Lyns when written.
Sarah Williams-Richard Brown marriage (https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1623/31547_213351-00224?pid=10243902&backurl=https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DIUd851%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource %26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1623%26gsf n%3Dsarah%26gsln%3Dwilliams%26gsfn_x%3DNN%26gsln_x %3DNN%26cp%3D4%26mssns%3Dbrown%26mssng_x%3D1%26new %3D1%26rank%3D1%26redir%3Dfalse%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D34%26fh%3D3%26h%3D10243902%26recoff%3D% 26ml_rpos%3D4&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=IUd851&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true)
This is the marriage Merry referred to above.
Marriage Date: 12 Feb 1827
Marriage Place: St Martin in the Fields, Westminster, Westminster, England
Pallots marriage index also has a marriage to Isaac Brown in 1833 at Stepney. But it's a bit late for Richard and Sarah.
Sarah Williams-Isaac Brown (https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5967/413_docu0160-14/1638992?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return)
Update: I bought Sarah Jnr's marriage certificate to Charles Bower, her second husband. It lists John Browning as her father. His occupation was Foreman in Docks. Sadly it does not say deceased to provide any sort of potential time line.
I have found a marriage for a Sarah Browning to Thomas John Watts in 1854 in Wandsworth. There are 2 deaths for a Thomas John in 1854 and 1855 which would make her a widow by 1861.
I've not really investigated this turn of events but I wanted to update a post and not start a new one.
I've found baptisms for Richard, Sarah and Frederick, all in 1835 all at St Botolph Aldgate. John was a butcher though.
They live at Sun Court which is where Sarah, snr, is living with John Bridges at the baptism of their first child.
Both those deaths are for babies:
WATTS, THOMAS JOHN 0
GRO Reference: 1854 D Quarter in EAST LONDON UNION Volume 01C Page 26
WATTS, THOMAS JOHN 0
GRO Reference: 1855 J Quarter in SAINT GEORGE THE MARTYR SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 96
Each was registered for birth in the same district as the death and the top one above was mmn Thomas and the second mmn Fairman.
I haven't found any baptisms for children of TJ and Sarah Watts nor any birth registrations for Watts/Browning, except for a few not in London (I only looked for five years after the marriage though!). I see her second marriage wasn't until 1875. What censuses do you have this Sarah on?
I found another thread suggesting TJ Watts may have died between 1861 and 1871. The only match for that is a fair bit older than Sarah:
WATTS, THOMAS JOHN 53
GRO Reference: 1865 D Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 316
but of course this might not be him! If he was registered without his middle name he would be lost in a crowd! Also, Sarah may have just said she was a widow in 1871 because she hadn't heard from her husband in years.
A lot of sites are reputed to have the images of marriages for All Saints Wandsworth where Sarah and TJ married in 1854, but I've not found anything. If we knew his occupation and father's details we might be able to confirm if this death is the right one. It would also be useful to see what Sarah said about her father this time.
If Sarah and TJ had children they did not make it to a census.
Sarah Jnr on the census':
1841 census (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8978/images/MDXHO107_690_691-0475?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&pId=7590102)
1851 census (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8860/images/MDXHO107_1545_1545-0685?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&pId=390053)
1861 census (https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=8767&h=5824385&indiv=try)
1871 census (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/12385300:7619)
1881 census (https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=7572&h=15433738&indiv=try)
1891 census (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/20426838:6598)
1901 census (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7814/images/LNDRG13_338_340-0790?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_gl=1*k2e0mg*_ga*NzE0MzE2NDI0LjE2Mzk2MTU1ODM.*_ga_ 4QT8FMEX30*MTY1Mjc3NTM2OS43Mi4xLjE2NTI3NzU1NTkuMA. .&pId=15364888)
Sarah Williams marriage to John Browning
Sarah Williams (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/2156841:1623)
I haven't been able to find a marriage for Sarah Browning to John Bridges.
If there was a Browning/Bridges marriage it would probably be before civil registration started in Jul 1837 as Francis Bridges was bap June 1837.
Those three Browning children bap together in 1835 - do you know how old the youngest was?
I don't know whether Toni knows what happened to Richard (the one aged 14 in 1841)?
He married Esther Sharp in 1853 and was a mariner. I can't find either of them after that.
He is not the Richard who married Martha Potter and is a sea captain, in the 1870's (I think). That Richard was born in Somerset.
Frederick may have married in 1859 but his father was a copper ___. I can't read it but it is not like a butcher so I'm not sure.
If there was a Browning/Bridges marriage it would probably be before civil registration started in Jul 1837 as Francis Bridges was bap June 1837.
Those three Browning children bap together in 1835 - do you know how old the youngest was?
Richard was born 1827, Sarah 1830 and Frederick 1833.
I've searched the London marriages and Westminster marriages before 1837 but can't find anything. I really can't see Sarah fitting another marriage in between the 1835 baptism and the Jan 1837 birth of Francis.
He married Esther Sharp in 1853 and was a mariner. I can't find either of them after that.
Frederick may have married in 1859 but his father was a copper ___. I can't read it but it is not like a butcher so I'm not sure.
The copper thing is copper smith, so unlikely to be the butcher.
Re Richard Browning and Esther Sharp, I did find this birth reg. The only one with these surnames in the first 10 years after the 1853 marriage.
BROWNING, FREDERICK ARTHUR mmn SHARP
GRO Reference: 1859 M Quarter in POPLAR UNION Volume 01C Page 658
I spent ages looking for him anywhere else and got nowhere. That led me to look for Esther Sharp so I could get a better idea for search criteria.
This looks like the baptism of Esther:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1558/images/31280_194871-00406?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=d5e1717f853b83eed78fc40b8e866da3&pId=1846702
bap 25 Dec 1833 born 31 Jul 1830 bap St Matthew, Bethnal Green father James a weaver, mother Elizabeth.
In 1841 she is 11 living with her parents in Bethnal Green. In 1851 there are two Esther Sharp(e)s, born Shoreditch, one aged 21 and the other 19. Both servants away from home.
Having done that I then found:
BROWNING, ESTHER 25
GRO Reference: 1856 J Quarter in CLERKENWELL Volume 01B Page 338
So, the 1859 birth for Frederick A Browning looks like a red herring, unless Richard had a relationship with Esther's sister, or something!
Actually, re the son of the copper smith, if that isn't your Frederick he fits very well, other than his father's occupation.
1861 census:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8767/images/MDXRG9_287_291-0984?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=5879734
I can't find any evidence of there being two Frederick Brownings from this part of London b about 1833.
To prove it's the same couple as in the 1859 marriage:
BROWNING, RICHARD mmn MIDDLEYARD
GRO Reference: 1861 M Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 545
EDIT: having said all that, he muddies the waters by giving his birthplace as East Ham Essex in 1871 and Sussex in 1881, but I still can't find a Frederick Browning on the 1841 ot 1851 census who looks likely to have been born in either of those places. Of course naming his first son Richard (for his brother?) is hopeful because it wasn't a hugely common first name at that time. Susannah is a widow in 1891.
Part of the reason I sort of feel Frederick who married in 1859 could be mine is his place of address - Colchester St. It is an address the Bridges were living in 1851. Sarah (mum) is living elsewhere in 1861.
I wish I could read the name of the first witness, see if it helped.
John Browning had 2 occupations - butcher on his children's baptisms and Richard's wedding certificate and foreman in docks on Sarah Jrs marriage cert. So Frederick's father's occupation could feasibly be something different.
I'll see if I can find John's death
Before I look at that marriage cert again, I just been to say this before I forget...
The Richard sea captain who married Martha the widow and said his father was Joh dec'd, no occupation..... I wondered if his first marriage was the one in 1848 to Harriet Chidgey where Richard was a mariner and his father was John a blacksmith? I was just thinking blacksmith and copper smith are not the same, but I suppose we would need to check whether there are both the same groom and if they are, whether this twice married Richard didn't have a younger relative called Frederick who mght have named his son for the sea captain.
Anyway, I will look at that witness....
Having to get that out about the sea captain, I have now taken in what you said about Colchester Street. I think that makes everything slot together much better for your family and makes me lessworried about the copper smith!
Erm, I'm not sure who that witness is! I will have a few more looks and wait and see if anyone else has any suggestions!
kiterunner
18-05-22, 11:53
I've read back through the whole thread and I still don't know where to find the name of the witness who you are trying to identify!
I think it looks like John Strand, but that's not helping particularly!
kiterunner
18-05-22, 13:56
Could you post a link, or a clue as to what marriage record it is, though, please?
kiterunner
18-05-22, 14:45
Never mind, I've found it now. Yes, could well be John Strand. Or could be John Stroud.
Stroud or Strand mean nothing to me. If they are related I am yet to discover the link.
Richard who married Martha Potter was born in Somerset and his father was a mariner too. I found them on a census or 2, but haven't taken notes.
I even looked in India for Richard, as my Joseph Bridges was a merchant marine before he ended up in India, but I couldn't find anything helpful.
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