Who was Clarke Davies of Manchester?

[ElizabethHerts]

This person was dead by 1788.

He was mentioned in the will of John Moult, Surgeon, of Rochdale, who died in 1788. John Moult bequeathed 1/7th of his estate to the children of Clarke Davies: Meriel or Miriam Davies and John Davies.

So far I haven't discovered anything about them.

All the other bequests were to cousins.
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=22307&highlight=John+Moult

[kiterunner]

I can't find anything so far, either.

[Merry]

A relation of this lady?

Meriell Davis Baptism 6 Sep 1708 Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George, father Edward Davis

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks, Kate and Merry, for looking.
Merry, perhaps a relation. An unusual name for the time (OH's mother's name).

[ElizabethHerts]

There is some confusion over then name of the daughter:

"... also to pay or cause to be paid yearly and every
year to John Davies and Meriel Davis Son and Daughter of the late
Clarke Davies of Manchester, during their or either of their Natural
Lives, One seventh part of the rents, Issues and Profits aris-
ing yearly from & out of the said real and personal Estates above mention’d
then at the Deaths of the said Jno Davies and Miriam Davies ..."

I have checked the original again and it definitely says that.

[Merry]

I don't know if this could be too early? I had imagined his two children being young adults in 1788, but they could have been any (majority) age, I suppose.

Anyway, it's the only thing I've found so far in the right name and place and approx. the right century! (from FMP)

First name(s) Clark
Last name Davis
Occupier's title Mdm
Occupier's first name(s) Clark
Occupier's last name Davis
Date May 1716
Year 1716
Address Collyhurst
Location Manchester Township
Title of record Poor Rate Assessments
Archive reference M 9/40/2/10
Record set Manchester Rate Books 1706-1900

When I looked at the image I noted there is an entry for Edward Davis right alongside this one - so that could potentially be the father of Meriell Davis Baptism 6 Sep 1708.

EDIT I think both names relate to the same entry - the original entry was for Edward and then Clark's name squeezed in with "is to pay 30s per annum for the future"

This is the only other entry I could find for Clarke Davies in the Manchester Rate Books (feels better for date, but I suppose is probably the same men as above!)

First name(s) Clerk
Last name Davis
Occupier's first name(s) Clerk
Occupier's last name Davis
Date 1737
Year 1737
Address Churchyard Side
Location Manchester Township
Title of record Poor Rate Assessments
Archive reference M 9/40/2/12
Record set Manchester Rate Books 1706-1900

[Merry]

There were probably over a dozen entries for Edward Davi(e)s, but I didn't examine them to see if they might conceivably be the same person.

[Merry]

The Edward Davis who was father to Meriell Davis was said to be one of the parish clerks at her baptism.

There is a burial 22 Feb 1737 for Edward Davis, parish clerk at Manchester Cathedral.

Likely children for him:

John 1706 b at Hulme Hall
Meriell 1708 father one of the parish clerks
Jenin 1709 ditto
Alice 1712 ditto

Alice died 1830 (dau of Edward Davis parish clark (sic)).

I've noted this in case you can find a will for Edward miraculously mentioning Clark and his relationship to him! lol

[ElizabethHerts]

Merry, thanks for that. It certainly looks interesting from the names.
It seems odd that we can't find any entries in the later years.

[Merry]

Edward's wife was also Alice Davis. She was buried in July 1729 (wife of parish clerk)

I was thinking if they married somewhere other than Manchester then perhaps that could give a clue re Clark.

[ElizabethHerts]

Merry, which records are you looking at?

[Merry]

Other than the rate books which were on FMP all the rest are from Ancestry Manchester Cathedral PRs.

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks, I was looking at Ancestry's Manchester collection but must check the Cathedral PRs.

[Merry]

There's a marriage bond on FMP for Edward Davis of Hulme Manchester yeoman and Alice Grantham of the same spinster. Marriage date 18 Jul 1705

[Merry]

It's in the Cheshire Marriage licence bonds and allegations 1606-1905

[ElizabethHerts]

Ooh, Grantham! Merry, that might be the link!

From the London Gazette (I think - must check):

Whereas by a Decree of the High Court of Chancery,
hearing Date the 17th Day of July 1978, made in a
Cause Hollingworth against Moult, it was, among other
Things, referred to John Ord, Esq., one of the Masters of
the said Court, to inquire who were the nearest Relations
of James Grantham, of Manchester, the Grandfather of
John Moult, late of Rochdale, in the County Palatine of
Lancaster, Surgeon, deceased, (who died in the Month of
February 1788,) the Testator named in the Pleadings of the
said Cause, and of his the said John Moult’s late Grand-
mother, the second Wife of the said James Grantham, and
whose maiden Name was Pearson; the nearest Relations of
the said John Moults said Grandfather and Grandmother
are therefore to come in before the said Master, at his Chamb’
bers, in Southampon Buildings, Chancery-Lane, London,
on or before the 4th Day of May 1808, and make out
their Kindred, or in Default thereof they will be permpto-
rily excluded the Benefit of the said Decree. – It is believed
that the said James grantham was formerly a Merchant
or Manufacturer at Manchester aforesaid, but had -ed from
Business, and died there in or about the Year – and his
Widow, - Grantham, (formerly Pearson) – survived
her said Husband, died at Manchester aforesaid in about
the Year 1769.

[ElizabethHerts]

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/16128/page/394/data.pdf

I got a lot of information from this!

[Merry]

Does that mean we don't care so much about Clarke any more? *crosses fingers*

[ElizabethHerts]

It's in the Cheshire Marriage licence bonds and allegations 1606-1905

Thanks, found it!

First name(s) Thomas
Last name Moult
Marriage year 1715
Marriage date 23 Dec 1715
Marriage place Bowdon
Spouse's first name(s) Elizabeth
Spouse's last name Grantham
City or town Bowdon
County Cheshire
Country England
Record set Cheshire Diocese of Chester parish marriages 1538-1910
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain

First name(s) THOMAS
Last name MOULT
Marriage year 1715
Marriage date 22 Dec 1715
Spouse's first name ELIZABETH
Spouse's last name GRANTHAM
Bride's residence Manchester, Lancaster
Bride's marital status Spinster
Groom's residence Beswick, Manchester, Lancastrie
Groom's occupation Chapman
County Cheshire
Country England
Record set Cheshire Marriage licence bonds and allegations 1606-1905
FMP

Perhaps Elizabeth and Alice were sisters?

[ElizabethHerts]

Does that mean we don't care so much about Clarke any more? *crosses fingers*

Well, I don't like loose ends! :o

So the scenario is that James Grantham and his wife Elizabeth Pearson (2nd wife) had a daughter Elizabeth and he and the 2nd wife Elizabeth or his first wife had a daughter Alice, who married Edward Davies. Edward Davies had a son Clarke, who in turn had John and Meriel/Miriam.

All I need now is the proof!!

[Merry]

If they were would their father be James then? *feels not entirely up to speed*

[Merry]

Sorry, just saw post #20

[Merry]

Can we make these fit? :D

Elizabeth Grantham
30 Jan 1697
Cathedral,Manchester,Lancashire,England
James

and

Alice Grantham
christening
10 Feb 1683
Cheadle, Cheshire, England
James

[ElizabethHerts]

I just found both those, Merry!

About the correct gap between them. I think that Alice must have been from the first wife.

First name(s) James
Last name Grantham
Marriage year 1696
Marriage date 10 Feb 1696
Marriage place Bowdon
Spouse's first name(s) Elizabeth
Spouse's last name Pearson
City or town Bowdon
County Cheshire
Country England
Record set Cheshire Diocese of Chester parish marriages 1538-1910

[kiterunner]

Is it possible that Edward was known as Clark Davies because of being the parish clerk?

[Merry]

Is it possible that Edward was known as Clark Davies because of being the parish clerk?

What a great idea! His dau would have been over 80 when she got her inheritance from..... erm.... whoever-it-was Moult. If she was presumably unmarried then if we could find a burial after 1788 that would be good.

[Merry]

..and John would be even older! It's possible but is it that likely?

[ElizabethHerts]

That is a question I have been mulling over in my mind, Kate. Perhaps that's how he was always addressed.

It neatly fits in with John Moult's will.
His bequests would then all have been made to cousins on the Moult side and half-cousins on the Grantham side.

[ElizabethHerts]

Why would he say whose children Meriel and John were at that age? Is that usual?

[Merry]

I'm not sure that anything is 'usual' lol but it might help identify John Davis as there were probably dozens of them to choose from!

[Merry]

What about Edward and Clark apparently being two people in the Rate Books? Or is it that the two Clark entries are just the nick-name for Edward (explaining why there are a lot more Edward entries than Clark entries). The 1716 entry has both names!

[ElizabethHerts]

Yes, the ages make it tricky.

[Merry]

What date was the 1788 Moult will signed?

[Merry]

How old was Mr Moult when he died? Not many leave bequests to a previous generation unless they are very young.

[ElizabethHerts]

I haven't found a baptism for John Moult yet, but his parents married in 1715.

His bequests:
Sarah Goodman of Eccles, born 1722, cousin (don't know date of death)
Manuel (Emmanuel Moult) of the Ness in Chinley, born 1732, cousin, died 1817
William Moult of Mellor, born 1739, cousin, died 1808
Susan/Susie Moult or Fox, wife of Mr Fox of Edale, born 1734, cousin, died 1784
heirs of Alexander Hollinworth (who died in 1774) Alexander was John Moult's cousin
Sarah Hyde (maiden name Hollinworth), Alexander's sister, cousin, died 1790
John and Meriel Davis, children of late Clarke Davis of Manchester

[Merry]

....and when did he sign it?

[ElizabethHerts]

....and when did he sign it?

Sorry, Merry!

7th June 1787 and then 7th September 1787 with a note about interlineations

He was buried 2nd March 1788 at St Chad, Rochdale.

[ElizabethHerts]

As by 1808 most of the beneficiaries of the will were dead, I think they were scouting around for other relatives connected.

The full text from the Gazette:

Whereas by a Decree of the High Court of Chancery,
bearing date the 17th Day of July 1798, made in a
Cause Hollingworth against Moult, it was, among other
Things, declared that according to the Will of John Moult,
late of Rochdale, in the County Palatine of Lancaster, Sur-
geon, deceased, the Testator named in the Pleadings of the
said Cause, Sarah Goodman, one of the Defendants therein,
then residing at Eccles, in the Parish of Chapel-en-le-Frith,
in the County of Derby, Widow, was entitled to One-
Seventh Part of the Money which should arise from the
Sale of the said Testator’s Real Estates, and of the Rents
and Profits thereof, and also to One-Seventh Part of the
clear Residue of the said Testator’s Personal Estate; that
Emanuel Moult, and other Defendant in the said Cause, then
and now residing at Chinley, in the Parish of Glossop, in
the said County of Derby, Gentleman, was entitled to One
other Seventh Part thereof; that William Moult, another
Defendant therein, then and now residing at Mellor, in the
said Parish of Glossop, Gentleman, was entitled to One other
Seventh Part thereof; that Sarah Hide (otherwise Hyde)
who in her Lifetime resided at Tintwisle, in the Parish of
Mottram in Longdendale, in the County of Chester, and was
the Sister of Alexander Hollingworth, late of Old Holling-
worth Hall, in the County of Chester, Gentleman, and who
survived the said Testator, but was then deceased, was en-
titled to one other Seventh Part of the same; and whereas
it was by the said Decree referred to John Ord, Esq; one of
the Masters of the said Court, to inquire whether any and
which of the Persons whose Rights were thereinbefore de-
clared had disposed of their - -rests, and in whom
the same were then vested, s- -erefore who may be
interested in the said Inquiry are, on or before the 4th
Day of May 1808, to lay their Claims before the said Master,
at his Chambers, in Southampton-Buildings, Chancery-Lane,
London, and substantiate the same, or in Default thereof
they will be peremptorily excluded from the Benefit of the said
Decree

Whereas by a Decree of the High Court of Chancery,
hearing Date the 17th Day of July 1978, made in a
Cause Hollingworth against Moult, it was, among other
Things, referred to John Ord, Esq., one of the Masters of
the said Court, to inquire who were the nearest Relations
of James Grantham, of Manchester, the Grandfather of
John Moult, late of Rochdale, in the County Palatine of
Lancaster, Surgeon, deceased, (who died in the Month of
February 1788,) the Testator named in the Pleadings of the
said Cause, and of his the said John Moult’s late Grand-
mother, the second Wife of the said James Grantham, and
whose maiden Name was Pearson; the nearest Relations of
the said John Moults said Grandfather and Grandmother
are therefore to come in before the said Master, at his Chamb’
bers, in Southampton Buildings, Chancery-Lane, London,
on or before the 4th Day of May 1808, and make out
their Kindred, or in Default thereof they will be perempto-
rily excluded the Benefit of the said Decree. – It is believed
that the said James Grantham was formerly a Merchant
or Manufacturer at Manchester aforesaid, but had -ed from
Business, and died there in or about the Year – and his
Widow, - Grantham, (formerly Pearson) – survived
her said Husband, died at Manchester aforesaid in about
the Year 1769.

Pursuant to a Decree and subsequent Orders of the High
Court of Chancery, made in the Causes Hollingworth
against Moult, Paul against Moult, and Goodman against
Bancroft, and a Decree in a Cause Goodman against Moult,
the Creditors of John Moult, late of Rochdale, in the Coun-
ty-Palatine of Lancaster, Surgeon, deceased, (who died in the
Month of February 1788,) are, on or before the 4th Day of
May 1808, to come in and prove their Debts before John
Ord, Esq., one of the Masters of the said Court, at his Cham-
bers, in Southampton-Buildings, Chancery-Lane, London, or
in Default thereof they will be peremptorily excluded the
Benefit of the said Decree.

The last paragraph throws up names I don't know:
Paul
Bancroft

[Merry]

Bother?

Miriam (Meriam) Davies Burial 20 Nov 1783 Manchester Cathedral

[ElizabethHerts]

There must be a later generation, I think.

[ElizabethHerts]

https://issuu.com/ianhandricks/docs/michael_wight_genealogy_volume_6_re

A genealogy of the Mellor branch of the Moult family. I haven't studied it in dept yet.

[ElizabethHerts]

I would assume that John Moult would hear of the death of his cousin?

[Merry]

I was thinking that could be the 1708 lady dying and the will beneficiary might therefore be someone younger?

[ElizabethHerts]

Shame I haven't found a will for Edward Davi(e)s, or any of the other people that might help.

[Merry]

Meriel Davis appears in the Manchester Rate Books 1765-1770

[ElizabethHerts]

I was thinking that could be the 1708 lady dying and the will beneficiary might therefore be someone younger?

I would hope so, Merry.

[kiterunner]

In post #8 Merry found a burial for Edward Davies in 1737. The "Lancashire Will Search" website has an entry for Edward Davies of Manchester, chapman, 1737. It says "Supra" which it says means "Wills and Administrations of Lancashire 1558-1857, Church of England.Diocese of Chester. Consistory Court". But I can't find it on FMP or Cheshire Archives catalogue at the moment. So maybe that means it is held by Lancashire Archives?

This is the link to the Lancashire Will Search page that I found it on:
https://user.xmission.com/~nelsonb/lws.htm

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks, I'll investigate.

[kiterunner]

Not sure whether you found this one already, Merry?
Baptism 4 Feb 1713/4 at Manchester Cathedral, John son to Edward Davis Parish Clark Nat Jan ye 22. Of course ancestry have messed up the transcription although it is written in lovely handwriting.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2964/40366_293998-00686/621151?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dCzj5686%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3dManchesterEarly BMDCathedral%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsln%3ddav *%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1714%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbd p%3d10%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26 hc%3d10%26fh%3d60%26fsk%3dBEE2jJMIgAALlAABfAE-61-&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[kiterunner]

So if the John born 1706 was in the same family, he probably died before the second one was christened.

[ElizabethHerts]

I meant to say before, I wonder if this is the will of John Moult's father:

Supra Moult Thomas of Rochdale, chapman Admon. 1782

Burial: 20 Mar 1781 St Chad, Rochdale, Lancashire, England
Thos. Moult, Gent. -
Abode: Toad Lane
Buried by: Thos. Bellas, Curate
Source: LDS Film 2356442

[ElizabethHerts]

This mentions the White Lyon:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/7314c9aa-e2f4-4b99-b819-1eab644398e6

Will of Sarah Hollingworth, maiden name Moult, made in 1749, probated 1758:

"And it is my further Will and Mind that all my Interest
right and Title that I have of in and unto a Certaine
Messuage or Tenemt. called the White Lyon Situate
in the Deans Gate in Manchester in the County of
Lancaster I Give Devise and bequeath unto my
Brother Thomas Moult of Chimley in the County of
Derby Yeo’n his heirs and Assigns for Ever"

[kiterunner]

Burial 31 Mar 1710 at Manchester Cathedral:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2964/40366_293998-00065/595219?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

John son of Edward Davis one of parish clerks.

[Merry]

No Kate, I didn't see the second John baptism. Excellent transcription from Ancestry!! :rolleyes:

[ElizabethHerts]

Burial 31 Mar 1710 at Manchester Cathedral:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2964/40366_293998-00065/595219?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

John son of Edward Davis one of parish clerks.

Oh dear!

[Merry]

Yes, but he is replaced - see post #49.

[ElizabethHerts]

Yes, but he is replaced - see post #49.

Thanks! My brain is addled.

This little exercise is keeping my brain occupied whilst we are suffering from a nasty tummy bug that is doing the rounds in the family. It's now day 4 and I'm still feeling rough!

The year 1713/1714 is a better scenario for the family.

[ElizabethHerts]

I've just come across this:

Reference: C 13/66/6
Description:
[W1806 G7].
Goodman v Moult. Bill and six answers.
Plaintiffs: Thomas Goodman.
Defendants: Emanuel Moult, William Moult, John Paul Paul, Robert Clarke Paul, John Slatter, John Webber, Margaret Mercer, Anthony Bancroft and wife, Joshua Bruckshaw and wife, Thomas Dewhurst and Alexander Goodman.
Original Bill Hilary 1797 name Hollingworth.
SMP
Date: 1806
Held by: The National Archives, Kew

I wonder if the Clarke is a clue here. There are some other names I don't know: Slatter, Webber, Mercer, Dewhurst.

[ElizabethHerts]

Thomas Goodman was married to Sarah, one of the daughters of Alexander Hollinworth.
Joshua Bruckshaw was married to Frances, another daughter of Alexander Hollinworth.

[kiterunner]

FamilySearch says there is a Robert Clark Paul on the 1851 census at Tetbury, Glos, born Tetbury 1777. Off to check...

[kiterunner]

Yes, this is Robert Clark Paul of Tetbury in 1851:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8860/GLSHO107_1967_1968-0021/7760499?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dCzj5730%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1851%26so%3d 2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3drob*%2bc la*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dpaul%26gsln_x%3d1%26MS_A dvCB%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp%2 6MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26MSV%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
A retired solicitor.

Not found his baptism yet though.

[kiterunner]

There are some other Pauls baptised at Tetbury: John 1772, Josiah 1779, and Samuel 1781, parents' names Josiah and Mary.

[kiterunner]

There is a public tree on ancestry which has Robert Clarke Paul as one of Josiah and Mary's children, and the John baptised in 1772 as John Paul Paul:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/74993258/person/120044771815/facts

It has Josiah as Josiah Paul Paul, son of Richard Tippetts, and Mary as Mary Clark. I'm not sure how they are connected to the Moults though (if that tree is correct).

[ElizabethHerts]

Thanks for that. I had seen that they were at Tetbury and can't quite see how they would be connected.

The mother's will is interesting:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5111/40611_311075-00913/630435?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/74993258/person/120044770740/facts

but no connection with the north, as far as I can see.

[kiterunner]

There is some information about the Paul family in Wiltshire Notes and Queries (pages 128- 129):
https://archive.org/stream/wiltshirenotesqu07deviuoft#page/128/mode/2up
It confirms that John Paul Paul and Robert Clarke Paul were sons of Josiah Paul Tippetts, later Josiah Paul Paul.