View Full Version : Joseph Standfast Smith
According to ancestry, he married
Sarah Smith 2nd January 1832 in Bristol, Gloucester
and
Caroline Barry 16th February 1833 in Holy Trinity, Bristol, Gloucester.
I had hoped with the new records in find my past for Bristol, Gloucester to be able to see more about these marriages but I cannot see anything about them.
Can anyone else see more than I can, please?
Burial of first wife Sarah Smith, 26 Feb 1832 at Bristol, Holy Trinity, St Philip, Gloucestershire aged 23
Caroline Barry 16th February 1833 in Holy Trinity, Bristol, Gloucester.
I think Caroline must have been a widow at this marriage as her maiden name comes up as Sadd for the births of her children with Joseph.
Oh, there's a tree on Ancestry that says there were two Carolines! I will have a look to see if Caroline Berry died, as they have not found a marriage to Caroline Sadd.
kiterunner
22-09-17, 18:52
They're on my CD. First one (Sarah Smith) was at St Augustine the Less, by banns, both OTP.
The second one (Caroline Barry) was by licence, he was a widower, sack manufacturer, OTP, and she was a spinster, of Walcot, Somerset. Unfortunately the CD doesn't show the witnesses' names. The disk has it as St Philip and St Jacob, not Holy Trinity, unless they're both the same place?
It does look like Caroline (Sadd) would probably have been too young to have married in 1833.
She was bap in 1817.
Wow, you have both been very busy. Thank you very much.
I had been trying to establish whether he really is the same Joseph Smith that had children with my relative Caroline Sadd (born 1816 in Suffolk) - but I am not totally sure that he is the same person.
Thank you very much for the information about Sarah and about Caroline, very helpful of you.
They are together in 1881 with the right birthplaces.
I forgot I was supposed to be looking for the burial of Caroline Barry.
He was made bankrupt in 1863. Have you got the notices for that? (FMP newspapers). His occ of stone carver on the 1881 census matches the bankruptcy notice occ where he is listed with his full name.
Thank you, Merry. Yes, I had read about the bankruptcy but am still not certain that Joseph Standfast Smith is my Caroline's Joseph Smith: her Joseph was a stone carver, yet the marriage record for the former (given above by Kite) stated he was a sack manufacturer, and this makes me think even more that the one married to Sarah and to Caroline Barry is not my Caroline's Joseph Smith.
Oops, just looked at the newspapers again and Joseph Standfast Smith is a carver / stonemason there!
Oh, I see what you mean. I think the man with your Caroline is definitely JSS b Brompton Kent 1808, but as you say, is the man with two wives in Bristol the same person?
There are other Standfast Smiths around Bristol.
Standfast Smith PCC will 1774 Bristol
Thomas Standfast Smith m 1805 Bristol
Thomas Standfast Smith Index To Death Duty entry 1807 Bristol
In 1804 a Thomas Smith married Catherine Standfast in Bristol
Turns out that marriage was 1704, not 1804 :o
Joy, I agree with you, that the Bristol Joseph's occupation doesn't sit comfortably with Caroline's partner being a stone carver. If the Bristol Joseph isn't the same man then what happened to him and Caroline Berry? I have done quite a lot of searching but not found anything. If there were two John Standfast Smith of very roughly the same age then not finding a death for either of them including their middle name seems surprising!
I know Caroline Sadd's first child was Mary b in Lambeth so we know she was in London at that date and that she and Joseph were still in that area in 1841.
I did see this birth reg:
SMITH, JOHN mmn BARRY
GRO Reference: 1838 M Quarter in THE WHITECHAPEL UNION Volume 02 Page 408
I looked over the following eight or so years looking for other Smith/Barry registrations but found none. I looked for other Smith/Barry marriages - there were not many and those where the sexes were the right way round were not near London (but nor was the marriage of JSS and CB!). Of course it's very likely this birth is a complete red-herring for numerous reasons. I haven't been able to establish anything on this John Smith on any other records yet.
wondered if this marriage could be connected in some way? (ok, so 99% not likely to be!!)
Name: Sarah Smith
Gender: Female
Marriage Date: 6 Sep 1829
Marriage Place: St. James Parish, Bristol, Gloucester, England
Spouse: John Barry
I don't have time to check the GRO indexes/census etc now, but if you do and you see Barry/Smith births in Frome Somerset they might be the children of James Barry and Susan Smith who married there in 1837!
Imagine if that Sarah Smith above came from Brompton Kent!! lol
I wonder if Kate's CD would tell us John Barry's occ as that might help find him later. :D
Joy, have you any baptisms for the children of Joseph and Caroline? I couldn't see any and wondered if they were non-conformist, or just didn't have their children baptised, possibly because they were not married! Are there any clues in the following generation?
I saw there's a John Barry b 1808/10 with wife Eliza in 1841 and 1851 and a widower in 1861. Died in 1864. Census and probate entry has him as a merchant/fruiterer.
In 1841 there are two children with him. Emma aged 13 and John Aged 11 (Emma is 21 on the next census, but I'm going for the 1841 being more accurate). I looked for baptisms for the children but couldn't find anything for the children of John and Eliza. I did however find a bap for John Barry on 26 Dec 1830 at Bristol, St Mary Redcliffe, parents John and Sarah. Annoyingly I couldn't see a bap for Emma. Of course, if she was 13 she should have been born before the 1829 marriage (if these people are connected!).
Having said the above, I don't see a burial for Sarah Barry, though there is a marriage in the first half of 1837 (!) for a John Barry to Eliza Keer which could be the census couple.
In any case, I feel like there's a massive number of red herrings surrounding all these people. Have to go and do other things now, but will have a think at the same time.............
kiterunner
23-09-17, 09:23
I wonder if Kate's CD would tell us John Barry's occ as that might help find him later. :D
Sorry, no. It just has John Burry / Sarah Smith, by banns, both OTP.
Burry lol!! Thanks for looking Kate :)
If that 1838 birth for John Smith mmn Barry was supposed to be Berry then there are loads of matches!
There are other Standfast Smiths around Bristol.
Standfast Smith PCC will 1774 Bristol
Thomas Standfast Smith m 1805 Bristol
Thomas Standfast Smith Index To Death Duty entry 1807 Bristol
I did speed-read the will of Standfast Smith but didn't notice a legacy to this TSS. However in this book:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8bFOAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA540&lpg=PA540&dq=%22thomas+standfast+smith%22&source=bl&ots=I7i9NjEjPV&sig=mIxW52gFlRP87y5w5QjwzL0FLPE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj5mcyojbvWAhXFA8AKHbeSDWUQ6AEIMDAC#v=on epage&q=%22thomas%20standfast%20smith%22&f=false
it says TSS committed suicide by slitting his throat at Berwick (upon Tweed) in 1807 (so presumably the same man as the one with the death duty entry) having inherited a lot of money in the past from an uncle.
This (Bristol) family do seem to get about.
1775-1768 Thomas Standfast Smith was apprenticed to John Laws of Berwick, carpenter. That's from FMP and here:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KfXgWNqD890C&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=%22thomas+standfast+smith%22&source=bl&ots=QOELBtipEq&sig=oR2GvblBYyY7Wiacho5V0QoyOV4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj5mcyojbvWAhXFA8AKHbeSDWUQ6AEILTAB#v=on epage&q=%22thomas%20standfast%20smith%22&f=false
TSS's widow married Luke Haynes at Bristol in 1808.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=RiHPJfgGGeUC&pg=PA471&lpg=PA471&dq=%22thomas+standfast+smith%22&source=bl&ots=3dG8rn7WJl&sig=itf2TtwzOcR-v1AJGY7AKCib3e4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj5mcyojbvWAhXFA8AKHbeSDWUQ6AEINDAE#v=on epage&q=%22thomas%20standfast%20smith%22&f=false
I realise all this has probably nothing to do with your original Q, but it's easier to copy and paste stuff at the time than to think "what was that I saw yesterday?" should something actually useful appear!
Though the Death Duty entry for TSS said Bristol, I saw this in the Durham University Library Special Collections Catalogue
Administration bonds 1807
DPRI/3/1807/A108 2 December 1807
administration bond, penal sum £390; Thomas Standfast SMITH, gentleman, of Berwick-upon-Tweed in the county of Northumberland
If the father of Joseph Standfast Smith was connected to the earlier Standfast Smiths of Bristol etc and were therefore connected with Thomas SS who slit his throat, you would think they might not want to give their new son his name just a few months afterwards. :eek:
Intriguing, isn't it?!
I haven't yet looked for baptisms for the children of Joseph and Caroline; I shall search for them later today.
I did wonder if my Caroline Sadd just took the surname Barry in a marriage to Joseph, for some unknown reason but, no, that cannot be so because there is a baptism for an actual Caroline Barry in 1814 in Walcot, Somerset.
PS I hadn't seen all your new replies before posting this. Shall read carefully and get back later. Thank you so much!
I did speed-read the will of Standfast Smith but didn't notice a legacy to this TSS. However in this book:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8bFOAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA540&lpg=PA540&dq=%22thomas+standfast+smith%22&source=bl&ots=I7i9NjEjPV&sig=mIxW52gFlRP87y5w5QjwzL0FLPE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj5mcyojbvWAhXFA8AKHbeSDWUQ6AEIMDAC#v=on epage&q=%22thomas%20standfast%20smith%22&f=false
it says TSS committed suicide by slitting his throat at Berwick (upon Tweed) in 1807 (so presumably the same man as the one with the death duty entry) having inherited a lot of money in the past from an uncle.
This (Bristol) family do seem to get about.
I think that was a Bristol thing. :(
I cannot find any baptisms for the children of Joseph and Caroline nee Sadd, neither have I found a death registration for his wife Caroline nee Barry.
The marriage (hopefully) for Caroline's son Reuben - and presumably Joseph's son - states his father was a sculptor, so that could be the same as carver / stonemason?
Marriage Date: 6 Oct 1878
Marriage Place: St Mary, Lewisham, Lewisham
Yes, I agree, sculptor = stone mason, esp as he says stone carver in a few places.
kiterunner
23-09-17, 15:51
I cannot find any baptisms for the children of Joseph and Caroline nee Sadd, neither have I found a death registration for his wife Caroline nee Barry.
She could have died before the start of civil registration. But surely there are lots of possible death registrations since we don't know where or when she died, nor whether the two Josephs are the same person or not. One of the trees on ancestry has her buried at Faversham, Kent, on the 19th Sep 1834. Have you checked that one out?
Thank you, Merry.
Thank you, Kite, I shall check that one out. Some trees are nonsensical ie one gives my Sadd family as having half-siblings, but others make more sense :)
kiterunner
23-09-17, 16:42
Hmm, FMP has a Caroline Smith age 2 buried at Faversham in 1834, so it looks as though we can rule that one out.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=Alb7631&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&db=ukfreemasonregisters&so=2&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsfn=joseph%20sta*st&gsfn_x=1&gsln=smith&gsln_x=1&cp=11&catbucket=rstp&MSAV=2&MSV=1&uidh=672&cpxt=1
In 1804 a Thomas Smith married Catherine Standfast in Bristol
Turns out that marriage was 1704, not 1804 :o
One of the ancestry trees has this couple above as the 2xg-grandparents of JSS b 1808.
Thomas Smith m 1704 Catherine Standfast
son Henry Smith m 1738 Judith Mayo
son Bernard Smith m ??
son Joseph Smith m Mary Ann ?
son Joseph Standfast Smith
all the above in Bristol until Joseph and Mary Ann appear in Kent. I haven't looked for records to back up any of this; just letting you know.
Thomas Smith (apothecary) who married 1704 has a PCC will proved 15 Dec 1730.
Sadly he doesn't mention a son named Henry!! He says he has four living children with his wife, Katherine - Thomas, Standfast, Bernard and Charity.
He doesn't say those children are minors, but he does say he thinks they are "too young and unsteady to take upon themselves the managements of such parts and shares of my estate". I don't see how that can work with those basic ancestry tree details I mentioned above!
The above Thomas Smith said he had a son Thomas. There is a PCC will for a Thomas Smith proved 29 Feb 1780. He doesn't mention any children, but does mention a cousin named Thomas Standfast Smith (the one who slit his throat?) and several people who appear to be called Berry (I don't think it's Barry, but of course we don't know that 1833 marriage wasn't actually Berry, not Barry! - could of course be another red herring).
So, if the cousin is a 1st cousin (and we don't know that he is), he should be either the son of Bernard or the son of Standfast - the other two sons of the original Thomas.
Brother Standfast is probably the one whose will was proved 6 Dec 1774. I haven't read it all, but there doesn't seem to be any children mentioned in the first three pages. There was a cousin, George Berry of Taunton.
So, did Bernard Smith grow up and have children. As there is no mention of him being a minor in the will of his father (1730) then he was presumably born close to his parents marriage date (1704). It is therefore unlikely he is the grandfather of JSS b 1808. Maybe there is another generation to fit in, as we have already lost the Henry from the ancestry tree.
Can I find anything about the correct Bernard Smith???? Nope!
Charity Smith who I mentioned in post #38 died unmarried in 1760. I had hoped her will might reveal the names of any of her siblings children (Bernard's children?) but the only relative mentioned is her brother Standfast. :(
Thank you for all your research, you have put in a lot of work :)
Going backwards is pretty easy, but not coming forward! I don't think we are any further forward on whether the man who married twice in Bristol is the same man who was with Caroline Sadd. I think I would place a small bet that he was, but not my life savings!
Going backwards is pretty easy, but not coming forward! I don't think we are any further forward on whether the man who married twice in Bristol is the same man who was with Caroline Sadd. I think I would place a small bet that he was, but not my life savings!
I agree :)
I have been wondering if the Caroline that married Joseph in 1833 maybe became ill or / and went in an asylum or she just disappeared, and that could explain why he (if the same Joseph) did not marry my Caroline Sadd. However, if the same Joseph, he had quite a change in occupation.
It makes sense that there's probably a reason Joseph and Caroline appear never to have married, and Caroline Barry still being alive would seem quite possible.
Yes.
Joseph Abraham Sadd Smith, born 1839, may, or may not have been Joseph and my Caroline's first child, so I am looking for any possible other children born to them between 1833 and 1839. And then what shall I do? - Maybe carry on knocking my head against a wall :)
kiterunner
24-09-17, 15:25
I suppose you could get copies of the two Bristol marriage entries from Bristol Archives to see the witnesses' names.
Good idea, Kate.
Yes.
Joseph Abraham Sadd Smith, born 1839, may, or may not have been Joseph and my Caroline's first child, so I am looking for any possible other children born to them between 1833 and 1839. And then what shall I do? - Maybe carry on knocking my head against a wall :)
I knew there was something I'd forgotten about! Do you know what happened to JASS? I noticed he wasn't with his parents in 1841 and doesn't seem to have died before that date, in Lambeth at least.
As for other children, if they didn't have their children baptised (or at least not in churches that are online) then I don't know how you would trace them?
Oooh, here he is! And his father is a defence witness :eek:
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=t18570406-539
So, where was he in 1841?
I still can't see him in 1841, but sadly he may have died in prison.
SMITH, JOSEPH ABRAHAM aged 18
GRO Reference: 1857 D Quarter in WESTMINSTER Volume 01A Page 197
JSS's mother must have been alive in 1857 as JSS said at that trial, "my wife and my mother were in the house". If only her name wasn't Mary Ann Smith! lol
JSS said he lived in Deptford High Street in April 1857 and in 1861 Caroline and her children were also in Deptford, but no Mary Ann Smith living with her. I wondered if Mary Ann lived with the family rather than happening to visit on the night of the housebreak then she might have died 1857-1861 in Greenwich district but all the Mary Ann Smiths who were registered for death were too young.
If only her name wasn't Mary Ann Smith! lol
Which of course it may not have been!
You're ahead of me again :)
Yes, just reading https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=t18570406-539
He must have dropped the Sadd from his name.
No pun intended, but it is very sad about Joseph Abraham Sadd Smith.
At least Joseph junior was with his mother Caroline in 1851:
Name Age
Caroline Smith 33
Joseph Smith 11
Elizabeth Smith 9
Annette Smith 1
Name: Joseph Smith
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: abt 1840
Relation: Son
Mother's name: Caroline Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: Southwark, London, England
Civil Parish: Grundisburgh.
I shall continue looking for Mary Ann Smith.
I really wanted this to be Mary Ann (because of her birthplace!),
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8860/SRYHO107_1561_1561-0560/691528?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1851%26so%3d2%26pcat%3dROO T_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dmar y%2bann*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dsmith%26gsln_x%3d1% 26msbdy%3d1782%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d10%26gskw%3 dbristol%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbu cket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV%3d1%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
but, having worked out her daughters were Mary, Elizabeth and Charlotte, I think her husband was more likely to be Thomas or William Smith and I couldn't see any Joseph SMiths to fit.
Joy, do you know whether the surname Dean turns up on the Sadd tree? (Annette's Smith's middle name, that she doesn't seem to use when she married in 1869 to Charles Patrick O'Connor - I can't find her death) EDIT Death 1937 Lewisham.
I just saw a photo of her here:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/23295365/person/1372830872/facts
They have her mother as Caroline Barry which we know is wrong!
It is, as I said, intriguing! No, I have no idea where my own (married) surname of Dean fits into the family. Why didn't she want to use it again?
Lovely photo, thank you, but the tree owner and others have not checked their facts fully, unlike us :) People do tend to just assume sometimes.
I suppose you could get copies of the two Bristol marriage entries from Bristol Archives to see the witnesses' names.
I have contacted Bristol Archives: fingers crossed for useful information.
At least Joseph junior was with his mother Caroline in 1851:
Name Age
Caroline Smith 33
Joseph Smith 11
Elizabeth Smith 9
Annette Smith 1
Name: Joseph Smith
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: abt 1840
Relation: Son
Mother's name: Caroline Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: Southwark, London, England
Civil Parish: Grundisburgh.
I shall continue looking for Mary Ann Smith.
Silly me. Who are the other people just above them? John and Lucy Smith:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=SHr1016&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=uki1851&sin=C0000006&siv=SFKHO107_1801_1801-0100&gss=angs-d&pcat=CEN_1850&fh=2&h=4907426&recoff=&ml_rpos=3
Joseph's parents?
And, if so, possibly John Smith's baptism?
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2972/40612_B0150393-00044?pid=2621230&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26db%3DUKNonConformistVitals%26h %3D2621230%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26use PUBJs%3Dtrue%26rhSource%3D8767&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true
- but I can't quite make out the name of the place: John son of Benjamin and Elizabeth Smith of ? Winstene?
Name: John Smith
Birth Date: 25 Nov 1777
Gender: Male
Event Type: Baptism
Father: Benjamin Smith
Mother: Elizabeth Smith
Baptism Date: 5 Jan 1778
Baptism Place: Debenham, Suffolk, England
Denomination: Independent
Piece Title: Piece 3093: Debenham (Independent), 1706-1837
kiterunner
25-09-17, 21:52
It does look like Winstene but I guess they mean Winston, which is close to Debenham.
I think that's a mis-spelling of Winston which is next to Debenham in Suffolk. (EDIT - sorry Kate. I missed your post!)
There is also a baptism at Grundisburgh for a John Smith on 01 Mar 1778 parents James and Mary.
But why would John and Lucy be Joseph's parents when the one thing we do know is that they were named Joseph and Mary Ann?
Thank you, both, about Winston.
I think I am getting confused, Merry. Just a coincidence, do you think, being next to some Smiths?
One of the online trees does have John with his first wife (Mary Seamman) as the parents of JSS, but they have ignored the 1808 baptism.
The 1808 bap is on FreeREG but it doesn't show occupation for the father which probably would have helped.
If John is Joseph's father it would have to be Lucy Smith (step-mum) who was visiting her son in 1857, which was the year before her death, so possible, but I'm not sure it's very likely.
The problem is, you need even more proof of things when the name is Smith, so having a bap with the wrong father's name and in an unlikely area doesn't help!!
Oooh we could look to see if there are other baps with parents John and Mary in Gillingham (rather than Joseph and Mary Ann). Would have to be after 1807 when John and Mary married in Grundisburgh and probably before there son John was b at Grundisburgh in about 1816 (John senr is living with him in 1861).
Okay, off I go then :)
Do you ever wish you hadn't / I hadn't started something?
lol No not really - it's more interesting trying to work out something complicated! (of course it's better if you actually get a result and don't have to give up!)
lol No not really - it's more interesting trying to work out something complicated! (of course it's better if you actually get a result and don't have to give up!)
Indeed! - thinks to self, such as Joseph Barber Brooks and Mary Ann Dyball: I haven't given up yet! :) By the way, the latter is Caroline Sadd's sister.
I have had a reply from Bristol Archives:
"Holy Trinity, St Philips, is a sub-parish within the parish of St Philip and St Jacobs, created in the 19th century as the original parish was so large and densely populated.
I have checked both marriages and the witnesses for Sarah Smith's marriage are Mr Howard Dean and Mary Ann Dean
The witnesses for Caroline Barry's marriage are Eliza Darwin and W Naish.
It is worth noting that witnesses were not necessarily people known to the bride and groom, it was a common practice for the church to pay a pair of witnesses to be present at all the weddings that day."
kiterunner
26-09-17, 16:01
FamilySearch has the marriage of a John Howard Dean to a Mary Ann Smith 25 Mar 1822 at St Bride Fleet Street, London.
kiterunner
26-09-17, 16:03
Here is the image of John Howard Dean's marriage on ancestry, and his signature on there could easily be misread as Mr Howard Dean:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31281_a101398-00008/300461?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dCtf3249%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3dlmamarriages%26 so%3d2%26pcat%3d34%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3djohn%26g sfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3ddean*%26gsln_x%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3 d1%26msgdy%3d1822%26msgdy_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d 11%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26MS V%3d1&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
kiterunner
26-09-17, 16:05
John Howard Dean of the parish of St Paul Dartford, Kent, bachelor, and Mary Ann Smith of this parish, widow, married by licence 25 Mar 1822, witnesses Daniel Turner and Francis Smith? I'm not sure of either of the witnesses' names, though. Anyone else read them differently?
kiterunner
26-09-17, 16:07
I can't say I've followed everything on this thread, but were you looking for a Mary Ann Smith who was Joseph's mother? (Or was it Sarah's mother?) And if so, could she be the one who married John Howard Dean?
kiterunner
26-09-17, 16:18
John Howard Dean died 10 Nov 1841 and was buried 17 Nov 1841 at St Paul, Deptford, age 53 (in England Select Deaths and Burials on ancestry), so he should be on the 1841 census.
kiterunner
26-09-17, 16:22
Ooh, were you missing a Joseph Smith born about 1839?
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8978/KENHO107_458_459-0083/2861459?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dCtf3277%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1841%26gss%3 dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3djoh n%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3ddean*%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy %3d1786%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV %3d1%26uidh%3dvm5%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh% 3d80%26fsk%3dBEDmZmYIgAAjEgA3MpI-61-&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
1841 census Gravesend, Kent
John Deane 50 Ind Y
Mary Do 50 Y
Joseph Smith 2 N.
kiterunner
26-09-17, 17:47
Joy, do you know whether the surname Dean turns up on the Sadd tree? (Annette's Smith's middle name, that she doesn't seem to use when she married in 1869 to Charles Patrick O'Connor
It is, as I said, intriguing! No, I have no idea where my own (married) surname of Dean fits into the family.
I guess we know the answers to these questions now!
Yay! So we can forget John and Lucy Smith in Suffolk and welcome in Mary Dean the mother of Joseph S Smith!!
She should be on the 1851 census but harder to find her without her husband!
Time for me to eat now.
kiterunner
26-09-17, 18:13
This is a possible for Mary Ann in 1851:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8860/KENHO107_1584_1584-0846/1960728?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1851%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d185 1UKI%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dmary%2bann*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3ddean*%26g sln_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1791%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d1 0%26gskw%3dkent%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dv m5%26MSV%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Thank you, Kite, and Merry. I am not sure I am keeping up with it all, Kite :)
Yes, that is the 1851 I am looking at right now, Kite, and it seems logical being in the High Street, Deptford.
But who are John and Lucy Smith, Merry? - related or just another Mr and Mr Smith? :)
John and Lucy Smith are the people you introduced (post #60) because they were living next door to Caroline Smith in 1851 in Grundisburgh! You wondered if they were Joseph's parents.
Mary Ann's death:
DEAN, MARY ANN aged 78
GRO Reference: 1861 S Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 384
After 1857 like we needed!
So to summarise......
JSS b 1808 in Brompton to Joseph and Mary Ann Smith
Father Joseph dies between 1808 and 1822
Mother Mary Ann Smith remarries to John Howard Dean in 1822 in London
Mr and Mrs Dean are witnesses at her son (his stepson) Joseph Standfast Smith's first marriage to Sarah Smith in 1832.
Sarah dies and JSS married Caroline Barry in 1834.
We don't know what happened to Caroline Barry, but by 1841 JSS has had two children with Caroline Sadd, probably without marrying her.
Later they name a dau after Joseph's stepfather (Annette Dean Smith).
1857 - Trial of son Joseph Abraham Smith at the Old Bailey where Mary Ann Dean is mentioned, but not by name...
Mary Ann Dean dies in 1861.
I know that's not everything, but the important bits!
witnesses Daniel Turner and Francis Smith. I'm not sure of either of the witnesses' names, though. Anyone else read them differently?
I agree with your interpretation :)
So if Mary Ann Dean died in Q3 1861 aged 78, is this her with the wrong age in 1861?
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=Alb8196&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=uki1861&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsfn=mary*&gsfn_x=1&gsln=dean*&gsln_x=1&gskw=deptford&gskw_x=1&cpxt=1&cp=11&catbucket=rstp&MSAV=2&MSV=1&uidh=672&pcat=35&fh=0&h=6574943&recoff=&ml_rpos=1
And if it is, what's a Government Pensioner? To do with the army/navy??
So if Mary Ann Dean died in Q3 1861 aged 78, is this her with the wrong age in 1861?
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=Alb8196&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=uki1861&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsfn=mary*&gsfn_x=1&gsln=dean*&gsln_x=1&gskw=deptford&gskw_x=1&cpxt=1&cp=11&catbucket=rstp&MSAV=2&MSV=1&uidh=672&pcat=35&fh=0&h=6574943&recoff=&ml_rpos=1
And if it is, what's a Government Pensioner? To do with the army/navy??
Must be the right Mary Ann as.....
First line of John Howard Dean's will..... "This is the Last Will and Testament of me John Howard Dean Lieutenant in the Royal Navy"
A very good summary, thank you.
Yes, I agree, Daniel Turner and Francis Smith.
That could be her in 1861 - a government pensioner? - no idea!
I am looking at the witnesses' names at the wedding of Caroline Barry ....
Must be the right Mary Ann as.....
First line of John Howard Dean's will..... "This is the Last Will and Testament of me John Howard Dean Lieutenant in the Royal Navy"
Oh well done, Merry.
Most of the beneficiaries of John H Dean's will are his blood relatives - couple of sisters, a brother and cousin (some in Toronto), plus his wife and his "son-in-law" (ie stepson) Joseph Standfast Smith.
I must look for that will, thank you.
I am getting forgetful, was that before JSS was bankrupt or not?
The only Eliza Darwin I have found so far might be too young to be a wedding witness: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1558/31281_a100918-00147?pid=496739&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DSHr1047%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-g%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3DEliza%26 gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3DDarwin%26gsln_x%3D0%26cpxt%3D1 %26cp%3D11%26catbucket%3Drstp%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3D pu7%26pcat%3DROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3D496739%26dbid%3D1 558%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D86&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=SHr1047&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true
Most of the beneficiaries of John H Dean's will are his blood relatives - couple of sisters, a brother and cousin (some in Toronto), plus his wife and his "son-in-law" (ie stepson) Joseph Standfast Smith.
I wonder what was crossed out at the stop of the second page.
So neat yet I shall have to get my magnifying glass! :)
kiterunner
26-09-17, 22:03
I wonder what was crossed out at the stop of the second page.
My other large picture to the said Samuel Howard who is to have his choice of them.
I must look for that will, thank you.
I am getting forgetful, was that before JSS was bankrupt or not?
The only Eliza Darwin I have found so far might be too young to be a wedding witness: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1558/31281_a100918-00147?pid=496739&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DSHr1047%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-g%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3DEliza%26 gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3DDarwin%26gsln_x%3D0%26cpxt%3D1 %26cp%3D11%26catbucket%3Drstp%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3D pu7%26pcat%3DROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3D496739%26dbid%3D1 558%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D86&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=SHr1047&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true
The witness may have been a married woman.
I have had a reply from Bristol Archives:
"Holy Trinity, St Philips, is a sub-parish within the parish of St Philip and St Jacobs, created in the 19th century as the original parish was so large and densely populated.
I have checked both marriages and the witnesses for Sarah Smith's marriage are Mr Howard Dean and Mary Ann Dean
The witnesses for Caroline Barry's marriage are Eliza Darwin and W Naish.
It is worth noting that witnesses were not necessarily people known to the bride and groom, it was a common practice for the church to pay a pair of witnesses to be present at all the weddings that day."
I'm quite jealous as I have had quite a few copies of marriage entries from Bristol Archives - mainly for witnesses and to discover the 'condition' of the parties, but not one has been any use to me!!
Thank you both again.
Both of you have been very helpful and imaginative in your searching.
Sorry, Merry - maybe next time for you, fingers crossed! :)
I had not contacted Bristol Archives before and was very pleased with the speed of their reply (by email). They said
"You can purchase a copy of these records for a £7.00 handling fee plus £0.80 per record as a hard copy by post, or £1.40 per record as a scanned PDF by email. Please let me know if you would like to order copies and I can write up an order form for you." and I shall request the records as a scanned PDF by email.
I am so very pleased that it has been established that there is the one Joseph Smith, but there are still conundrums (plural of conundrum?) to be solved :)
Yes, Bristol Archives do seem helpful.
Yes to conundrums! I suppose the most obvious one is what happened to Caroline Barry.
The Caroline Smith buried 19 Sep 1834 at Faversham was only aged 2, so the trees that have that for Caroline Barry are wrong. (FMP PR image)
You are right, Merry. It is good to be able to see the actual image. I have just loved that over the years at record offices.
Yes, the main conundrum - what happened to Joseph's first wife Caroline?
The next one - did he and Caroline Sadd marry?
This may seem totally irrelevant to Joseph Smith, but in trying to establish what happened to his second wife Caroline nee Barry, and trying to establish whether he married my Caroline Sadd, I have been looking at his and Caroline nee Sadd's descendants in case a clue appeared. Well, no clues yet but, being a Crystal Palace FC supporter, I was very excited to see that a grandson of theirs, Eric, played for Crystal Palace! :) https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/23295365/person/1376501777/story
Back to Caroline nee Barry, the only death registration that I have found so far for someone of her age is a Caroline Smith who died aged 19 in Leek, Staffordshire. Unfortunately for me, there is also a baptism for a Caroline Smith in 1814 in Leek, Staffordshire. Where did she go?
She may have lived with someone (if she didn't die between 1834 and say 1838) and whilst Caroline wasn't a particularly common name, without a place of birth or age it would be difficult (almost impossible?!) to track her down.
kiterunner
28-09-17, 12:39
Joy found a likely baptism for Caroline Barry in 1814 in Walcot (post #29).
Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that!
That's true; and thank you, both, I did - baptised 10 April 1814 Walcot, Somerset
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fsomerset%2fbap%2f003822064
I would love this Caroline Smith to be Caroline nee Barry - the correct age - but how to prove it?
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=SHr1148&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=CriminalRegisters&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=Caroline&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Smith&gsln_x=0&MSAV=1&uidh=pu7&pcat=36&fh=4&h=861707&recoff=8%209&ml_rpos=5
Can't help thinking "poor Sarah", she didn't last long (Joseph's first wife).
Reading back - there's a lot of interesting information here. Thank you.
I've looked at all the Carolines on the 1851 census b in either Bath or Walcot 1814 +/-2 years and eliminated all of them! (obviously this may not be ALL of them, I just mean all those that appeared on Ancestry results list).
kiterunner
28-09-17, 13:25
I would love this Caroline Smith to be Caroline nee Barry - the correct age - but how to prove it?
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=SHr1148&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=CriminalRegisters&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=Caroline&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Smith&gsln_x=0&MSAV=1&uidh=pu7&pcat=36&fh=4&h=861707&recoff=8%209&ml_rpos=5
If the "Community Contributions" information on this webpage is correct, it's not her.
https://convictrecords.com.au/convicts/smith/caroline/11300
If that info on that Caroline is correct and the Wikipedia stuff on Richard Martin is also correct then that Caroline must have been illegitimate as Richard Martin's second wife would have been too old to have a baby around 1814.
Thank you, both, for all the searching.
I am wary of anonymous contributors that do not state the origin of the stated "facts".
I am exploring as many facts that I can find about "Richard Martin, a member of Parliament for 20yrs, member for Galway". -
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1820-1832/member/martin-richard-1754-1834
An interesting biography.
There's a report on the March 1836 Warwick Assizes in the Birmingham Journal 26 March 1836, but I couldn't see a mention of Caroline Smith.
Thank you.
I think https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/38443549/person/20455721592/facts verifies the Wikipedia stuff and, having read a lot about the family of Richard Martin in his online biographies, too, I have serious doubts that he had a daughter who became Caroline Smith.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1981/31205_Vol12-01195?pid=35652&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1981%26h%3D35652%26ssrc %3Dpt%26tid%3D38443549%26pid%3D20455718847%26usePU B%3Dtrue&ssrc=pt&treeid=38443549&personid=20455718847&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true
There's a report on the March 1836 Warwick Assizes in the Birmingham Journal 26 March 1836, but I couldn't see a mention of Caroline Smith.
No. And I cannot see her in https://apps.warwickshire.gov.uk/prisonersdb/prisoners/indexes?order=year&show=150
Doh! Am getting sidetracked looking at other members of my family!! 14 years for stealing two lambs: https://convictrecords.com.au/convicts/sadd/william/2145
I did wonder if this is the right will for Joseph Smith (JSS's father)
Joseph Smith of Saint Paul Deptford, Kent, will proved PCC 25 Aug 1821
The will was written in 1820 and only names a wife, Mary Ann Smith, who is the executrix and sole legatee. No mention of a son, but if he's JSS's father, JSS was only a child. This Joseph was an inn keeper.
Unfortunately burial records for Deptford don't seem to be available online for 1820/21 as I was thinking knowing the age of this man could possibly be helpful (for instance, if he was only aged 25 then he would be too young to have a child born 1808 etc). Mary Ann Smith/Dean was born in about 1783/4ish).
kiterunner
29-09-17, 19:20
Ancestry does have the burials for St Nicholas, Deptford, for 1820 and 1821 (in the London Burials), though I haven't got time to check whether there are any pages missing just now. Joseph Smith doesn't seem to come up though, unless he is mistranscribed.
But we want St Paul, don't we?!
Thank you. I shall go and have a look at ancestry for Deptford.
I posted in Galway Genealogy in facebook:-
"Someone here: https://convictrecords.com.au/convicts/smith/caroline/11300
is claiming that Richard 'Humanity' Martin MP had a daughter called Caroline Martin. I have explored biographies online about him including http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/…/martin-richard-1… but cannot find any legitimate daughter of his called Caroline.
Convict Records: Caroline Smith
If Caroline Smith was the person you were looking for, you may be able to discover more about them by looking at our resources page.
CONVICTRECORDS.COM.AU"
The record states "Caroline Smith, one of 185 convicts transported on the Westmoreland, 09 August 1836".
Community Contributions"
Anonymous on 15th April, 2012 wrote:
Real name was Caroline "Martin". Father, Richard Martin, a member of Parliament for 20yrs, member for Galway. Single woman. Bad report on ship "excessively bad and dangerous woman". Arrived Van Diemens Land. Two reports of drunkenness. Sentence extended by 3yrs, but later recinded. Ordered to be kept at the Female Factory for 12mths. Died at the House of Correction 15 May 1838."
I am wary of any allegation that does not give the origin of it. Any thoughts?"
Someone called Adrian Martyn responded:
" I've researched the family concerned for many years, and this is the first I've heard of this."
I have checked him out and he is an authentic author of Irish history.
I have posted this on the convict site:
"The allegation by Anonymous on 15th April 2012 gives no source for the information. With respect, I would suggest it is inadvisable for the site to allow such an allegation without proof of it."
There is only one Joseph Smith that I can see buried at St Paul's, Deptford and that is in 1849, aged 71.
Ancestry does have the burials for St Nicholas, Deptford, for 1820 and 1821 (in the London Burials), though I haven't got time to check whether there are any pages missing just now. Joseph Smith doesn't seem to come up though, unless he is mistranscribed.
But we want St Paul, don't we?!
Oh, I didn't realise that. So, what about this one? His grandson was also Joseph Abraham.......
Name: Joseph Abraham Smith
Gender: Male
Age: 38
Birth Date: 1783
Death Place: St. Paul, Deptford, Kent Co., England
Burial Date: 29 Jul 1821
I realise there was no middle name on the will. Good for age as well as good for death date (between the will signing and probate date).
Oh, I didn't realise that. So, what about this one? His grandson was also Joseph Abraham.......
Name: Joseph Abraham Smith
Gender: Male
Age: 38
Birth Date: 1783
Death Place: St. Paul, Deptford, Kent Co., England
Burial Date: 29 Jul 1821
I realise there was no middle name on the will. Good for age as well as good for death date (between the will signing and probate date).
I was just about to ask how we would know they were in Deptford at the time of his death, and then I read Joseph Abraham Smith and thought, as you did, about Joseph Abraham Sadd Smith. I think you have found him, thank you.
No middle name, true, what a pity, but later on, going ahead, middle names are given, then not used ie Annette Dean Smith, Eric Heseltine O'Conor etc :)
The amazing thing about all of this, I have been sitting reading again about them here and saying to myself I have trodden in their footsteps! You didn't know this, maybe, but I have walked along the High Street in Deptford, and have been to St Paul's in Deptford :)
If you subscribe to find my past, you can see more about Joseph Abraham Sadd Smith:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=tna%2fccc%2fcrim9%2f003%2f00084&parentid=tna%2fccc%2fcrim9%2f003%2f4768%2f1
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=tna%2fccc%2fcrim9%2f003%2f00112&parentid=tna%2fccc%2fcrim9%2f003%2f5099%2f1
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=tna%2fccc%2fpcom5%2f024%2f00980&parentid=tna%2fccc%2f2f%2fpcom5%2f00000317
I think my memory is going! Did we work out why JSS had the Standfast name?
And I had been wondering why Joseph Abraham and Mary Ann had moved from Gillingham in Kent, where JSS was born, but I suppose being an inn keeper, then his work took him around the place, just as JSS's work took him around the country.
I would imagine he is connected with the other Standfast Smiths who were in Bristol and that's probably why he went there to get married.
I also saw this burial at Deptford:
County Kent
Place (link for place information) Deptford
Church name St Nicholas
Register type Parish Register
Burial date 18 Oct 1809
Burial person forename Elizth: ( Elizabeth)
Burial person surname SMITH
Burial person abode Stowage, Deptford
Relationship dau of Male relative forename Joseph
Relative surname SMITH
Register note Father's Occupation: Victualler
and wondered if this Joseph is the same one who died there in 1821? It would have been nice if there had been a bap at Gillingham for an Elizabeth! Or an occ on the bap of JSS what said victualler or inn keeper.
An occupation would be nice to see :)
So many Smiths :)
Rochester is not far from Gillingham:
Name: Elizabeth Mary Smith
Gender: Female
Christening Age: 0
Birth Date: 28 May 1801
Christening Date: 30 Aug 1801
Christening Place: Rochester, Kent
Father: Joseph Smith
Mother: Mary Smith
Just remembered - I wonder why JSS changed occupation.
A very good point that I had forgotten about.
It makes little sense as obviously he would have had an apprenticeship or specialist training to be a stone carver. I did wonder if 'sack' is a mis-transcription? But if it is, I can't imagine what for.
I have received, by email, PDF copies of the parish registers. Such a shame JSS's occupation is not given on the first marriage's details.
Lovely to see the names and signatures. Poor Sarah didn't last long.
On the 1833 parish register, I am pretty sure it is sack manufacturer. I shall ask my husband to check it. W Naish was a witness at the next marriage on the page, so perhaps he was the clerk.
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