View Full Version : Martha Derwent
Can someone please find her on the 1841 or 1851 census?
She was born 1787 in Cheshire (nee Binns) and married James in 1812.
James was dead by 1852 but don't know if he lived to see a census.
I expect her to be in either Cheshire or Lancashire, she was in Staleybridge, Lancs in 1852.
She might also be in Dukinfield or Mottram in Longdendale.
She has a son James b 1819 but she isn't with him in 1851, she also has children Thomas b 1816 (married to Mary in 1835) and Ann b 1818. I have no idea where they are on either census either. She may have other children but I haven't confirmed it, in particular one called Wright but his baptism has the mother as Mally and I don't know if that would be her or not.
I only have FMP so if you find her on ancestry could you please post page, fiche numbers etc so I can find her on fmp. Thanks
I've seen alternate spellings as Darwent and Durrant.
You said James was dead by 1852 (what's your source for that?)
You said Martha was alive and in Stalybridge, also in 1852, so I wondered if the source for that is the same as for James being dec'd? Does this source give her surname? Could she have remarried?
I wondered if your source was the will of Thomas Derwent of Stalybridge that gave the 1852 info (probate 1853)? His death reg is on FreeBMD but I couldn't find it on the GRO index to get his age - I was thinking he might be Martha's son, but the only person I could find in Stalybridge in 1851 to fit the death was much older.
I have looked at deaths for Martha D*nt 1837-1915, ignoring all those not in Lancs or Cheshire and ignoring all the entries for surname Dent. Of the others I couldn't find any close to the year of birth you gave (using the new GRO index for age for the earlier deaths) though I suppose I could have missed one! Are you sure she didn't emigrate with her son James?
You said she was born in Cheshire but didn't say where. What's your source for that?
kiterunner
11-09-17, 09:10
There is a Martha Derwent (Derment on ancestry) in Burslem, Stoke upon Trent, in 1841:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8978/STSHO107_987_988-0062/13857496?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
HO107/987/8 (i.e. piece 987, book 8), folio 10, page 12.
Martha Derwent 50 Green Grocer No
Charles Ladd 15 Labourer No
Mary Ball 15 Patten Yes
John Dowing(?) Swindells 30 Bailiff Yes
I was put off that one because in 1861 she says she was born in Much Wenlock, Shropshire.
kiterunner
11-09-17, 09:19
You said James was dead by 1852 (what's your source for that?)
You said Martha was alive and in Stalybridge, also in 1852, so I wondered if the source for that is the same as for James being dec'd? Does this source give her surname? Could she have remarried?
I wondered if your source was the will of Thomas Derwent of Stalybridge that gave the 1852 info (probate 1853)? His death reg is on FreeBMD but I couldn't find it on the GRO index to get his age - I was thinking he might be Martha's son, but the only person I could find in Stalybridge in 1851 to fit the death was much older.
Cheshire BMD has a Thomas Derwent death in 1853, sub-district Hartshead, age 70. FreeBMD shows Hartshead as being in Ashton district, same as Stalybridge.
Cheshire BMD has a Thomas Derwent death in 1853, sub-district Hartshead, age 70. FreeBMD shows Hartshead as being in Ashton district, same as Stalybridge.
So that's probably the man I saw on the 1851 census.
Martha's son James immigrated in 1852 and on the arrival papers he had to list his parents names and where they lived. He said James was dead and Martha lived in Stalybridge.
I guess she could have remarried. I hadn't thought of that.
If she emigrated she did not do it at the same time as her son. The family all live/lived near me and I have not seen a grave for her, nor any mention of her out here.
My source for Martha's birth is familysearch.
Her maiden name is Binns, which is used as a middle name down through the generations.
She was born 17/1/1787 and baptised 19/8/1789 in Mottram in Longdale, Cheshire.
I can't find details on the other children, although I have seen the will for Thomas but I don't think he is Martha's son. He may be related but I have no details on James the husband.
Somewhere I have a death certificate for James Jr. I am thinking that is where I got the maiden name from but I don't have it with me at the moment.
There is a Martha Darwent marrying in Mottram at the end of 1819 but her condition is not given. The groom is Samuel Hopford (or Stopford) and I think I can see him with the children he had with Martha on the 1841/1851 census, but he has a new wife, Mary, so that would suggest the Martha he married had died and so she can't be alive in 1853. It was also a long shot because Samuel and Martha had a son, James (in 1826?), but your Martha already had a son James!
The above is from memory, sorry! I hope I've remembered correctly.
kiterunner
11-09-17, 12:18
What about the Martha Darwen who marries John Houlden in 1829, also at Mottram, Merry? Have you been able to rule her out?
(Edit - oh dear, Houlden seems awfully close to Holden!)
No, only had time to look at the one marriage.
Are there any burials we could look at for James?
I'm off out again in a minute though!
I found the marriage to Samuel Houlden but the witnesses mean nothing to me. Nor could I find anything on the census for that couple.
Here is Martha's baptism on FMP Martha Binns Bapt (http://search.findmypast.com/record?id=gbprs%2fchs%2f4019063%2f00594&parentid=gbprs%2fb%2f765961044%2f1&highlights=%22%22)
Here is Martha's marriage in 1812, it says his name is James Darron.
Marriage (http://search.findmypast.com/record?id=gbprs%2fchs%2f4011874%2f00027&parentid=gbprs%2fm%2f745102785%2f3)
kiterunner
11-09-17, 13:55
I found the marriage to Samuel Houlden but the witnesses mean nothing to me. Nor could I find anything on the census for that couple.
It says John on FamilySearch. Is it Samuel on the image?
No baptisms for James D?rr?n in Cheshire so I don't know if it is a spelling variation or a name change.
I'm off to bed. Thanks for looking at this
It says John on FamilySearch. Is it Samuel on the image?
No John on the image. Sorry, I'm tired.
No baptisms for James D?rr?n in Cheshire so I don't know if it is a spelling variation or a name change.
I'm off to bed. Thanks for looking at this
His sig on the 1812 marriage says James Derwent or Darwent though, so it's probably just the vicar making 'a mistake'!
What about the Martha Darwen who marries John Houlden in 1829, also at Mottram, Merry? Have you been able to rule her out?
(Edit - oh dear, Houlden seems awfully close to Holden!)
I think this is the right Martha and the name probably should be Holden.
The reason I think it's the right Martha is because of this from the 1841 census:
(as an aside - The entry begins on the same page as the entry for Thomas Derwent who died in 1853. On this census he is aged 60.)
Sycamore Street, Dukinfield, Lancs
Martha Holden 50 No
Isabella Holden 11 Yes
John Holden 9 Yes
Wright Derwent 28 Cotton Rower (or similar!) No
Ann Derwent 23 Cotton Weaver No
Matthew Derwent 13 Cotton peicer Yes
Henry Binns 17 ditto No
William Binns 9 No
You already mentioned Wright Derwent as a possible son and I've seen a likely bap for John Thomas Holden in 1832 at Ashton under Lyne, Lancashire, the son of John and Martha.
That 1841 census ref is:
Piece: 110
Book: 4
Folio: 15
Page Number: 24
lol In 1851 Martha and her son are at 2 Sycamore St, Dukinfield, but 19 year-old John is John William when he should be John Thomas (according to the bap!). I still think it's the right Martha though, and the right John.
Dukinfield is the parish but it's in the town of Stalybridge. Martha says she is born in Lancs which is wrong, but much of Cheshire and Lancs seem to cross the county boundary with ease from what I've seen so far!
Here's the ref for the 1851:
Piece: 2237
Folio: 293
Page: 24
kiterunner
11-09-17, 16:17
There is a Martha Holden death in 1855 on Cheshire BMD, sub-district Dukinfield, age 65. FreeBMD has it as Jul-Sep 1855, district Ashton.
kiterunner
11-09-17, 16:21
Possible burial on FMP - St John, Cheshire (Martha Holden, 1855, age 65). I haven't got a sub to view the image.
Yep, that looks like the right one Kate:
5 July 1855 at St John's Dukinfield, Cheshire aged 65. Address Robinson Street.
Duckinfield is in Lancs on Ancestry and Cheshire on FMP!
This could be James' burial. Mottram in Longdendale and Mossley are just under four miles apart:
Parish of Moseley, Lancs (I imagine this is Mossley?)
James Derwent buried 10 Apr 1819 abode Staley Bridge aged 31
Thank you so much.
I have never considered her remarrying. No idea why.
Now if you want to find James' baptism and parents I would be very grateful.
The Thomas Derwent who died in 1853 aged 70 and was living in Ashton under Lyne in 1841 and 1851 was born in Chesterfield in Derbyshire in about 1784 (1851 census). That's about 35 miles away.
If this is Thomas:
Thomas Darwent bap 3 Mar 1782 Chesterfield, Derbyshire, father,
Zacariah
then is this James?
James Derwent bap 25 Dec 1787 St. Mary and All Saints Church, Chesterfield, Derbyshire, father Zacariah
kiterunner
11-09-17, 22:03
There is a James Derwent or Darwent baptised 25 Dec 1787 at Chesterfield, Derbyshire, son of Zacariah Derwent. But it would help if your James had named a son Zacariah!
Edit - snap, Merry!
kiterunner
11-09-17, 22:06
Zachariah Darwent was buried 30 Jan 1798 Glossop, Derbyshire, age 45, residence "Upper House, Cheshire", according to FamilySearch. I wonder where that is.
I couldn't find anything to fit in Cheshire of Lancashire.
kiterunner
11-09-17, 22:14
Oh, if you have an FMP sub, search for Zachariah Darwent on there, with the "use variants" boxes ticked, and then for Zachariah Derwent, again with the boxes ticked, because there are lots of interesting matches that come up, some in Mottram, some with surname as Darrand. (I can't view them as I don't have a sub.)
kiterunner
11-09-17, 22:18
I couldn't find anything to fit in Cheshire of Lancashire.
There is an "Upper House" at Kinder, near Hayfield, Derbyshire, pretty close to the border with Cheshire, but I don't think the border has changed. I would ask OH but he's not back yet!
Thanks Kate and Merry. I definitely have the FMP sub as I got my pioneer status back.
I'll look up Zachariah and see if I can also trace his son Thomas and family. I have to do the school run and homework first though :(
I couldn't find anything to fit James in Cheshire or Lancashire either.
I'll also see if I can find a will for James now we have a death for him (thank you if I failed to say that before).
Oh, if you have an FMP sub, search for Zachariah Darwent on there, with the "use variants" boxes ticked, and then for Zachariah Derwent, again with the boxes ticked, because there are lots of interesting matches that come up, some in Mottram, some with surname as Darrand. (I can't view them as I don't have a sub.)
I noticed that a brother of James and Thomas named Zachariah who was also bap in Chesterfield in 1783 has a memorial in Mottram-in-Longdendale dated 1830, but FMP say it is on the war memorial, which seems unlikely! I'm very curious about that. There's a grave number though (C69) so maybe it's a normal grave after all? EDIT All the memorial entries for M-in-L say they are on the war memorial, so presume an error.
Another sibling, Amy, bap 1792 Chesterfield (didn't know the name Amy was around then!) had an illegitimate child bap at Mottram-in-Longdendale in 1821 named Zachariah. The surname for this Zac is Durrand. The address on the bap is New York, Glossop! Amy was an engine feeder. Glossop and M-i-L are only a couple of miles apart though different counties.
Quickly comparing the names of Zachariah's children b Chesterfield with the marriage records at Mottram, it looks pretty much like the whole family relocated.
Lots of interesting stuff to get your teeth into!
Don't know if this could help too:
http://www.mottramparish.org.uk/heritage/familyhistory/
His sig on the 1812 marriage says James Derwent or Darwent though, so it's probably just the vicar making 'a mistake'!
Just paid better attention to this. Where did you see the signature?
Fmp.
Thank you. I'd found the BTs which didn't have signatures. Now have the original register with the signatures. :)
Are Zachary and Zachariah similar enough to be the same person?
I have an Ann Mason marrying a Zachary Derwent in 1775 in Derbyshire, which is the only thing that looks likely for Zachariah's marriage.
The Thomas on the 1841 census with Martha Holden is not the Thomas who dies and leaves a will. The first Thomas married a Hannah, the second a Lydia. Just putting notes here.
If you search for the baps of Zac's children and only use Zac* for his name I think you'll find his first name varies from one record to another, so yes, I'd say Zachary and Zachariah are close enough!
Thanks Merry. I know there are a few variations of the spelling, I'm still wondering if I've missed one as there is about a 5 year gap between marriage and children but I can't work out how you would pronounce Zachary to make it sound like Zacariah or vice versa. I know they are similiar but different to me.
kiterunner
15-09-17, 14:45
Maybe he was just known as Zach, and nobody was sure what it was short for!
I'm still wondering if I've missed one as there is about a 5 year gap between marriage and children
Did you see these two?
Mary Darwent bap 17 Mar 1776
Martha Darrent bap 10 Feb 1777
Then Hellen 1780, Thomas 1782, Zachariah 1783, James 1787 and Amy 1792.
I hadn't found Mary 1776 but have Charlotte in 1794 and Robert in 1798.
Zachariah died a few months before Robert was born.
Ooh yes, I was only looking at Chesterfield!
I may have discounted Glossop but Zach died there and Amy had her son there all around the same time.
I originally searched D*r*nt in the surname box and Zac* in the father's box. I also put Chesterfield in the Keywords box. That brought up 11 matches and Mary was the first on that list. Unfortunately, when I typed them here I accidentally switched the surname spellings for Mary and Martha. Mary's surname was spelled Darrent and Martha's Darwent. :o
Thanks Merry.
This family is hard to find. I've had to stop for a while but I was tracing anyone I could find and one of them married 3 times in 10 years. I have to say the third wife must have been rather brave.
I agree.
I have a man on my tree who married five times. The first four wives all died in childbirth. The first two died within a year of their marriages. My relative managed the longest out of the first four wives - she was the third wife and died at the birth of her fourth child. The fifth wife must have been brave! (or foolhardy, though she was many years younger than her husband and didn't have any children - maybe there was a reason for that?!)
I haven't found the deaths yet but the first 2 marriages were not very long based on the timing of the next marriage. I suspect childbirth deaths and the children did not live either, or someone else raised them as he has no children with him on any census.
The third wife was childless too and she outlived him.
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