Louisa Bertha Embell

[Maureen Hulbert]

My sisters' mother was called Louisa Bertha Embell; she married? circa1920,

It was her second marriage, and her new name was Plummer. She died in

Greenwich, London in 1926. We can find no information on this lady whose

maiden name was Jones. Are there any relatives out there? WE would be so

grateful for any information.

[ElizabethHerts]

The death registration is for 1927:

First name(s) LOUISA B
Last name PLUMMER
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1890
Age 37
Death quarter 3
Death year 1927
District Greenwich
County London
Volume 1D
Page 738
Country England
Record set England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007

[Merry]

I can see a Bertha Louisa Jones marrying a Henry John Enbel in 1907, Wandsworth.

This Bertha may have been born in 1889 in Wandsworth. Does that sould like the right person? I can't see her in 1911, do you have that?

Welcome to the forum btw!!

[ElizabethHerts]

Ancestry have some details about the burial of a Louisa Plummer at Greenwich but with the age of 32:

Name: Louisa Plummer
Record Type: Death
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1895
Death Date: 14 Aug 1927
Death Place: Greenwich, England
Parish or Poor Law Union: Greenwich
Borough: Greenwich
Register Type: Parish Register

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1559/31363_A109355-00026?pid=11868900&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26db%3DLMAdeaths%26h%3D11868900% 26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3Dgmj16 14%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26 rhSource%3D7579&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=gmj1614&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

[Merry]

There are two entries in the death register for Louisa:

Deaths Sep 1927

Eubell Louisa B 37 Greenwich 1d 738

This most likely means she wasn't legally married to Mr Plummer, but was using his name. Explains why I couldn't find her second marriage!

[Merry]

Birth of a dau:

EUBEL, BERTHA GERTRUDE mmn JONES
GRO Reference: 1907 S Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 577

[Merry]

I see there are two children born in Greenwich in 1923 and 1924 surname Pummer and mmn Jones. Is the girl (1923) your (half/step?) sister who you mentioned in your opening post? Obviously almost any name combined with Jones may turn up some red herrings!

[Merry]

I'm still struggling with the 1911 census.

[ElizabethHerts]

It looks as though Henry Eubel/Enbel remarried:

First name(s) HENRY J
Last name EUBEL
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1943
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ HENRY J EUBEL married
Dorothy E Battelly
Spouse's last name Battelby
District Brentford
District number -
County Middlesex
Country England
Volume 3A
Page 882
Record set England & Wales Marriages 1837-200

He is on the 1939 register with Hilda:

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=tna%2fr39%2f0216%2f0216e%2f019&parentid=tna%2fr39%2f0216%2f0216e%2f019%2f25

[kiterunner]

There is a Henry John Eubel at 59 Sneinton Rd, Nottingham (Salvation Army Home), on the 1911 census, age 23, born Middlesex Pimlico, a sorter for the Salvation Army Waste Paper Depot. It says he is single but maybe he is the one who married Bertha Louisa and they separated?

[kiterunner]

I assume this is the 1891 census entry for the Bertha Louisa Jones who was born 1889 in Wandsworth district (just in case it helps with the 1911):
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/LNDRG12_431_433-0027/10393700?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dCzj4017%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1891%26so%3d 2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dberth*%2 6gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3djones%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy_x% 3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26msbdy%3d1890%26gs kw%3dlondon%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26ca tbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26MSV%3d1&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

4 Frere St, Battersea
Thos Jones Head M 22 Waterman Kent Woolwich
Martha Ann " Wife M 22 Middx Chelsea
Bertha Louisa " Daur 1 Surrey Battersea.

[kiterunner]

And the same family in 1901:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7814/LNDRG13_453_454-0565/21144127?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1901%26so%3d2%26pcat%3dROO T_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dberth*%2 6gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3djones%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy_x% 3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26msbdy%3d1890%26gs kw%3dlondon%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26ca tbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26MSV%3d1&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

10 Plough Rd, Battersea
Thomas is now a general labourer and there are more children as well as Bertha 12: Henry 7, Richard 5, Kathleen 2, Thomas 1 mth, all born Battersea.

[ElizabethHerts]

One of the boys, Richard Claude Jones, son of Thomas and Martha Ann, was baptised at St Peter, Battersea in 1897:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1558/31280_198353-00462?pid=4824682&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3Dgmj1638%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-g%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsfn%3DRichard%26gsfn_x%3 DNP_NN_NIC%26gsln%3DJones%26gsln_x%3DNP_NS%26msypn __ftp%3DBattersea,%2520Surrey,%2520England%26msypn %3D85379%26msypn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5286%257C85379%257C0%257C0%257C%26msbdy%3D1896% 26msfng%3DThomas%26msmng%3DMartha%26cp%3D0%26catbu cket%3Drstp%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3D9p3%26pcat%3DROOT_ CATEGORY%26h%3D4824682%26recoff%3D8%252010%252028% 252030%252041%252042%26dbid%3D1558%26indiv%3D1%26m l_rpos%3D6&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=gmj1638&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

From this I have found the 1911 Census. They are at Battersea Rise and Louisa is with them:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_02234_0581_03?pid=3631221&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26db%3D1911England%26h%3D3631221 %26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3Dgmj1 639%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%2 6rhSource%3D1938&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=gmj1639&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

So is this the Louisa who married Henry John Eubel/Enbel?

By the way, the wife/mother Martha has died and Thomas Jones has been married to Lily for 5 years. There is a daughter Gertrude Maud.

[kiterunner]

This is the baptism of that Bertha Louisa Jones:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1558/31280_197975-00263/4166836?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dCzj4044%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3dlmabirths%26so% 3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dberth*%2 6gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3djones%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy_x% 3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26msbdy%3d1890%26gs kw%3dlondon%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26ca tbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26MSV%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

9 Jun 1892 at St John, Battersea: Bertha Louise, daughter of Thomas James & Martha Ann Jones, father's occupation painter, abode 20 Benham Street, date of birth 5 Sep 1890. Also baptised the same day: Thomas James, date of birth 10 Dec 1891.

The 1889 birth reg has MMN Bailey, which matches with Thomas James whose birth was registered first quarter of 1892, and with the other children listed on the 1901 census entry, so it looks as though her year of birth has just been written down incorrectly on the baptism entry.

[kiterunner]

One of the boys, Richard Claude Jones, son of Thomas and Martha Ann, was baptised at St Peter, Battersea in 1897:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1558/31280_198353-00462?pid=4824682&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3Dgmj1638%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-g%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsfn%3DRichard%26gsfn_x%3 DNP_NN_NIC%26gsln%3DJones%26gsln_x%3DNP_NS%26msypn __ftp%3DBattersea,%2520Surrey,%2520England%26msypn %3D85379%26msypn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5286%257C85379%257C0%257C0%257C%26msbdy%3D1896% 26msfng%3DThomas%26msmng%3DMartha%26cp%3D0%26catbu cket%3Drstp%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3D9p3%26pcat%3DROOT_ CATEGORY%26h%3D4824682%26recoff%3D8%252010%252028% 252030%252041%252042%26dbid%3D1558%26indiv%3D1%26m l_rpos%3D6&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=gmj1638&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

From this I have found the 1911 Census. They are at Battersea Rise and Louisa is with them:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_02234_0581_03?pid=3631221&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26db%3D1911England%26h%3D3631221 %26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3Dgmj1 639%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%2 6rhSource%3D1938&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=gmj1639&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

So is this the Louisa who married Henry John Eubel/Enbel?

By the way, the wife/mother Martha has died and Thomas Jones has been married to Lily for 5 years. There is a daughter Gertrude Maud.

It's tempting to think that Gertrude Maud is Bertha Louisa's daughter Bertha Gertrude, since I can't find a birth reg for Gertrude Maud at the moment, but I haven't found Thomas and Lily's marriage yet to check when it was and what Lily's maiden name was.

[ElizabethHerts]

Exactly my thoughts, Kate.

[Merry]

1918 Electoral Rolls

High Street Battersea SW 11

114 Louisa Eubel

1919 Electoral Rolls

High Street Battersea SW 11

24 Louisa Eubel

[ElizabethHerts]

The 1911 Census is giving the births as Godalming, but this word has been added later. It originally just said Surrey.

[kiterunner]

By the way, the wife/mother Martha has died and Thomas Jones has been married to Lily for 5 years. There is a daughter Gertrude Maud.

Hmm, it actually says that Thomas has been married for 22 years! 5 children born alive, 5 living, 0 died - but it says that for Thomas, not for Lily. I would have thought that Thomas had at least 1 child who had died - the first Thomas jr, since they had another Thomas jr born later. Also it looks as though Harry or Henry is not included in the total as he is not with them in 1911 and there are 5 children actually named on the form. So the information on the 1911 census doesn't look very accurate!

[ElizabethHerts]

Hmm, it actually says that Thomas has been married for 22 years! 5 children born alive, 5 living, 0 died - but it says that for Thomas, not for Lily. I would have thought that Thomas had at least 1 child who had died - the first Thomas jr, since they had another Thomas jr born later. Also it looks as though Harry or Henry is not included in the total as he is not with them in 1911 and there are 5 children actually named on the form. So the information on the 1911 census doesn't look very accurate!

Woops, sorry! I was reading the wrong column.

[ElizabethHerts]

First name(s) MARTHA ANN
Last name JONES
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1869
Age 33
Death quarter 1
Death year 1902
District Wandsworth
County London
Volume 1D
Page 387
Country England
Record set England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007

[ElizabethHerts]

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=gmj1646&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Martha%20Ann&gsfn_x=NP_NN_NIC&gsln=Jones&gsln_x=NP_NS&msypn__ftp=Wandsworth,%20Surrey,%20England&msypn=87798&msypn_PInfo=8-%7C0%7C0%7C3257%7C3251%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C5286%7C87798% 7C0%7C0%7C&msbdy=1869&msddy=1902&cp=0&catbucket=rstp&MSAV=1&uidh=9p3&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=7230670&dbid=9840&indiv=1&ml_rpos=2

Buried at Morden, but no image.

Name: Martha Ann Jones
Gender: Female
Age: 33
Birth Date: 1869
Burial Date: 29 Mar 1902
Burial Place: Morden, Surrey
FHL Film Number: 1785869
Reference ID: p270 rn2153

[Merry]

1925 Electoral Rolls

Stockwell Street, Greenwich
3a William Plummer
3a Louisa Plummer

1926 Electoral Rolls

Nevada Street, Greenwich
8 William Plummer
8 Louisa Plummer

In 1922 William was at the Stockwell St Address by himself.

[Merry]

Obviously it would be best if Gertrude Maud aged 3 in 1991 was Louisa's daughter. I did wonder though if she might be Lily's child, perhaps registered either in Lily's maiden name or in another surname. Having said that, I have eliminated all the Gertrude Maud* birth registrations in Surrey between 1907 and 1908, so if she was Lily's child it's likely she was either born somewhere else or didn't start off with the name Gertrude Maud.

I would feel happier if we knew if Thomas and Lily were actually married and when and her previous name(s). Can anyone read the place in the Channel Islands she was said to come from on the 1911 census (see post #13)?

[Janet]

Can anyone read the place in the Channel Islands she was said to come from on the 1911 census (see post #13)?

Looks to me like the word "resident"...?

[Merry]

Hmmm... well that's no help then! I am struggling to make it say resident, though I agree the second half of the word looks right.

[kiterunner]

Hmmm... well that's no help then! I am struggling to make it say resident, though I agree the second half of the word looks right.

The first letter is a lower-case "r" similar to the others on the page but in more fancy handwriting, but the upstroke is very faint. Yes, it is "resident".

[Merry]

lol so no help at all.

[linds1967]

My sisters' mother was called Louisa Bertha Embell; she married? circa1920,

It was her second marriage, and her new name was Plummer. She died in

Greenwich, London in 1926. We can find no information on this lady whose

maiden name was Jones. Are there any relatives out there? WE would be so

grateful for any information.

I found this thread while looking for information on Bertha Louise Jones. I am related to the Jones family mentioned on the census forms, etc & would be grateful to find out if anyone has any further info on her. She is the only person that I haven't been able to find anything about after the 1911 census. The marriage mentioned on this thread in 1907 wasn't her (she was a witness). I would love to find out what happened to her if you have any info.

[kiterunner]

Welcome to the forum, linds1967. I've re-read this thread a couple of times, but I'm confused by what you say about Bertha Louise Jones not being the bride in the 1907 marriage but a witness. Are you talking about the marriage of Bertha Louisa Jones to Henry John Enbel (or Eubel, or Embel) in 1907? If so, could you give us the full details of what it says on the marriage certificate, please?

[linds1967]

Welcome to the forum, linds1967. I've re-read this thread a couple of times, but I'm confused by what you say about Bertha Louise Jones not being the bride in the 1907 marriage but a witness. Are you talking about the marriage of Bertha Louisa Jones to Henry John Enbel (or Eubel, or Embel) in 1907? If so, could you give us the full details of what it says on the marriage certificate, please?

Hi, yes thats the marriage I am referring to - I didn't purchase the marriage certificate as it didn't seem right to me as she was still living at home on the 1911 census. After checking electoral rolls, census info, etc, I found Margaret Louisa Buckland married to Alfred James Thomas so do not think she married at that time and strangely they are all listed on the same reference number which I assume would mean only one marriage took place (I assume a double marriage would mean 2 reference numbers?). Bit confusing!

[Merry]

It is normal to have four names with the same marriage reference in the GRO index. This just reflects that two marriages appear on the same page of the parish register or registrar's register. (in earlier years you may find up to 8 names with the same reference).

[linds1967]

It is normal to have four names with the same marriage reference in the GRO index. This just reflects that two marriages appear on the same page of the parish register or registrar's register. (in earlier years you may find up to 8 names with the same reference).

I didn't realise that thank you :D

Strange that she was listed as living at home in 1911 under the name Jones if she had married ;(

Now that I know it was usual practice - I'm off to purchase the marriage certificate! :d

[kiterunner]

If it helps, my great-grandparents got married in 1899 but my great-grandmother is listed as unmarried, under her maiden name, at her father's house, on the 1901 census.

[linds1967]

If it helps, my great-grandparents got married in 1899 but my great-grandmother is listed as unmarried, under her maiden name, at her father's house, on the 1901 census.

They certainly haven't made it easy for us! :d

[Kit]

I wonder what happened to Maureen, the original poster? She didn't comment after her original post.

[linds1967]

So pleased I found this forum - I received Bertha's marriage certificate today and it does look like this Bertha mentioned was my Great Aunt Bertha. I have sent a message and email to the original poster, but not heard back from her which is a shame as I know a bit about the family.