Please help me find my relative [Archive] - Genealogists' Forum

Briercliffe

02-09-17, 13:33

Hello, I am hoping someone can help me please.
I am looking for a name removed according to my mums birth certificate he was a merchant seaman. He signed my mums birth certificate name removed.
Unfortunately everything else is a bit vague. We don't know his date of birth we were originally told that name removed was about 10 years my Nans senior, then we were told he was about the same age...
We were also told he was from County Cork Ireland and had a friend called name removed... however nothing to confirm this...
We know that he was living around Smithdown Road in Liverpool and then lived in Southdene Kirkby this was all in the time from around 1963-1968.
He was with a girl called Marie (who was born a Fivelsdal, her step dad was Hayes, then she Married a Smith-Hardie) Back to name removed - they were known as Marie and Mac.
He had two daughters with my Nan one was born in August 1964 (Rose M) and the other November 1965 (Christine) as well as twin boys that were born in January 1968

Any information at all no matter how bad would be appreciated
Or if anyone know how I can find out a date of birth that would help too
Thank you so very much.

I am not very technical if you can help and need anymore information please email me [email protected] or find me on Facebook Marie Briercliffe
There is a photo on my fb page and it's set to public it was taken approximately 1967

James18

02-09-17, 14:23

I am so confused by all these identical threads.

Merry

02-09-17, 14:50

Briercliffe - All your other threads have been deleted as we don't give details of potentially living people on this site without their permission (that is, people born since 1917).

If you want to give details of the births for the children of your grandmother and TM then you could post up the registration details without the names as we could find them from that information.

I am going to leave this thread up but with the living people's names removed.

Merry

02-09-17, 15:01

OK, so now I've done that I can concentrate on actual facts.

Firstly, could you let us know whether your grandmother is dec'd. If not, then do you have her permission to post info about her and do you have the permission of her children to post about them?

Can I confirm that your grandmother was born in 1942 in Liverpool and married in 1959?

Merry

02-09-17, 16:25

Mary Marie Smith-Hardie, died in 2006.
Why was TM "with a girl Marie" when surely that's your grandmother?? *goes for a lie down* ;(

Merry

02-09-17, 17:15

Merry

02-09-17, 17:36

In 1969 did your grandmother re-marry the man she originally married in 1959? Presumably she was divorced in between? If the man you are trying to find out about was named as the co-respondent in the divorce then have you checked that no one in the family has the divorce papers in case there is information about him there?

Briercliffe

02-09-17, 20:19

Hello sorry
Two toddlers husband at work all day
Long day to say the least

My nan is Mary Marie smith Hardie born 1942
She married my step grandfather David twice yes a divorce in between

Name removed is my mums real dad but we have no info on him
My nan died in Dec 2006

Everyone mentioned in my post is actively searching for Name removed and has consent I have also advised the admin of this now sorry I am new and have no idea what I am doing

My nan was called Mary but known as Marie
She was born a fivelsdal

I thank you so much for your help I will look at the link now
But as we have so little information I am unsure I will find anything...

Briercliffe

02-09-17, 20:26

Unfortunately it doesn't matter who I ask

NO ONE seems to know ANYTHING everything this side is VERY VERY vague!
There's no documents anywhere to be found and no one can tell us anything more than what we already know

It really is an enigma

Do you know if it's possible to see divorce papers? I really have no idea where to start

Thank you again for your help
It's really appreciated xx

Merry

02-09-17, 20:42

So your step-grandfather is still living? Have you spoken to him about this whole situation or is it difficult? He would presumably know whether TM was cited in his divorce from your grandmother. I have my divorce papers and my husband has his (two lots lol!). Most people would keep them, so do you know if your step-grandfather has his?

Surely it has to be worth at least investigating the Merchant Navy records at the National Archives?

Do you know when the relationship between TM and Mary Maria ended and why?

Briercliffe

02-09-17, 21:15

I have requested a page check on the link that you sent me thank you very much they are going to check and email me back by 15/9

My step grandad David says he doesn't know anything... as he was away in London I think the divorce was done in his absence...

Briercliffe

02-09-17, 21:16

Do you know if there is ways to check out tenant records as my mum has the address where they lived in south Liverpool when she was born

Briercliffe

02-09-17, 21:20

From what I was told they lived in southdene Kirkby after south Liverpool and they had the twins in 1968 January name removed was named on their birth certificate
Then David was back on the scene and the twins where given up for adoption at age 2 years then my nan moved again to Wingate road Kirkby

Merry

02-09-17, 21:49

I expect the Liverpool Electoral Rolls will be held at the main library in Liverpool. Or if they are not, the library will know where they are. I'm not sure how much they will tell you, but you might discover what the middle initial A stood for.

Interesting that the twins were adopted. I wonder what information would be in their adoption records? I presume you are in touch with them as you said everyone in your opening post is actively searching for TM.

Merry

02-09-17, 21:56

You mentioned you have seen your mum's birth cert. Have you see all the birth certs for her siblings who are TM's children, just in case there are any further clues about him.

kiterunner

02-09-17, 21:57

Thanks for confirming that the people named in your initial post have consented to have their details posted. I have edited the post to put their names back in (though I assumed the friend mentioned has not been contacted, so did not put his name back).

However, the person you are searching for may still be alive and obviously has not consented for his details to be posted, so I have edited his name out of various posts, and please don't post his name again.

If people want to know the name of the person we are looking for, so they can help, please PM me or Briercliffe and we will send you the name. Thanks.

kiterunner

02-09-17, 22:01

You mentioned you have seen your mum's birth cert. Have you see all the birth certs for her siblings who are TM's children, just in case there are any further clues about him.

If you haven't seen them, you should make sure to, because there could be more information about him, as Merry says, e.g. full middle name, more details of his occupation etc.

Briercliffe

02-09-17, 22:18

Divorced June 1969
Remarried July 1969

Apparently nan divorced David as abandoned her for 3 years or more

Briercliffe

02-09-17, 22:22

Briercliffe

02-09-17, 22:23

On my mums sisters birth certificate
TM name is not listed as father it's just a line...

Briercliffe

02-09-17, 22:24

We were told the middle initial was Anthony but again not sure how true ...

Briercliffe

02-09-17, 22:24

All the occupation states is merchant seaman

kiterunner

02-09-17, 22:55

Okay, I think it would be worth you having a look at the electoral registers for that time to see how his name was listed - it might possibly confirm his middle name. (Though please don't post his name up on here when you have done that, but you can PM it to those who want to help.) There is information on this link about where the electoral registers are held - Liverpool Record Office.

http://liverpool.gov.uk/libraries/archives-family-history/family-history/

Briercliffe

02-09-17, 22:56

I have just msg one of the twins to see if their parents got given the birth certificate with the adoption certificate or not awaiting a reply ...

Briercliffe

02-09-17, 23:10

Thank you

I have just emailed them to see about the street search too see if they can offer any help and advice of where to start too

Merry

03-09-17, 06:48

I spoken to the twins and they checked with there parents they advised social services also tried to search for TM to no avail.
His name only appears on the document and he didn't sign ...
they don't have there birth certificate as it was pasted through adoption and they were given new surnames Hughes And the twin called Thomas had his name changed to Tony

I have just msg one of the twins to see if their parents got given the birth certificate with the adoption certificate or not awaiting a reply ...

They could buy copies of their original birth certificates if they don't have copies already.

Merry

03-09-17, 07:07

On my mums sisters birth certificate
TM name is not listed as father it's just a line...

That's Christine's isn't it?

The most likely reason for that is that TM wasn't available to go to the register office (at sea perhaps?) as he would have to do in order to be named on the certificate as he wasn't Marie's husband (a husband can be listed as father without him attending).

I think you need to compile a list of the exact dates of all the documents you have access to, along with what name and occupation is given for TM on each of those and what address or addresses are recorded in each case, before you try accessing the electoral rolls. A pattern may appear that may save you looking at unnecessary addresses.

Merry

03-09-17, 07:25

I probably shouldn't post this yet, but I just wanted to get an idea of potential numbers IF (a very big if at the moment) it should turn out the information you already have is correct - that is correct middle initial and had that initial on his birth cert rather than it being added later, correct area of birth and born between say 1930 and 1945.

Searching with the above criteria there are entries as follows:

Birth reg Q3 1931 (Ancestry) - this child died aged 14 months at the end of Sept 1932 (Irish Genealogy.ie)
Birth reg Q3 1941 (Ancestry)
Birth reg Q1 1943 ditto
Birth reg Q3 1944 ditto
Birth reg Q4 1944 ditto
Birth reg Q2 1945 ditto

All the above are Cork registration district except the last one which is Bandon district which covers part of County Cork.

Briercliffe

03-09-17, 09:15

Yes that's Christine
Without the name
Apparently he was at sea ...

Briercliffe

03-09-17, 19:56

Sorry what does Q1/2/3/4 mean please?

Briercliffe

03-09-17, 19:58

kiterunner

03-09-17, 21:40

Q1 = 1st quarter, i.e. Jan - Mar, Q2 Apr-Jun, etc.

I have come across loads of people who added a middle name some time after their birth / baptism registration, and you can't tell from the fact that the middle initial was in his signature, whether he was originally registered with a middle name or not.

Merry

04-09-17, 07:06

It's fab by the way that there isnt that many
We are assuming it's not a confirmation name at he used the "A" in his signature
How would I access the above records please do they say if they came to Liverpool perhaps got married here etc? Xx

It won't be at all straightforward to find out what happened to those babies born in County Cork. And no, a birth certificate isn't going to tell you what happened to the child after the birth registration. I only listed the entries because I really had no idea what sort of numbers we might be dealing with - NOT because I thought one of those children MUST be him. If I'd included births with no middle initial then that would have added around another dozen candidates to the list. Of course you don't know for certain he was from Cork in any case!

You asked about marrying in Liverpool - I'm not sure who you mean, but surely it's most likely the reason TM didn't marry your grandmother was because she was already married and probably not because he was too?

The first thing you need to do is access all the documentation you can and record all the information in one place. If there are children of TM who don't have their birth certs (the originals for those adopted) then they need to get copies and you need to record the information from those too. It may turn out that none of this information helps, but if you haven't seen it you can't yet know that.

garstonite

04-09-17, 07:30

Interested because it is Liverpool - South Liverpool where I live - Briercliffe - have you any idea what area of South Liverpool ?? ie Garston/Allerton/Speke /Hunts Cross / Halewood /Mossley Hill / Aigburth ?? - did the kids go to school in South Liverpool before they moved to Kirkby ? if so what school - will give us an idea where they lived - the reason I ask is - if it was Speke - there is an online site for Speke - if it was Garston - there is an online site for Garston etc and we could ask on there as well

Merry

04-09-17, 17:39

British Phone Books 1880-1984 (Ancestry)

1972 and 1973:
Smith-Harvey D.J. 18 Wingate Road, Northwood 051-546-8602

1978:
Fivelsdal M. 18 Wingate Road, Kirkby 051-546-1606

I know the above are later than we are interested in, but still thought having a note of the address might be better than trying to find it again later.

Briercliffe

04-09-17, 18:23

How do I add a photo please?
It's on my camera roll on my phone

Merry

04-09-17, 18:33

You need to upload it to a photo hosting site such as Photobucket Dropbox or Onedrive etc. Then put a link to it here.

Briercliffe

04-09-17, 18:55

I have two address one when my mum was born and one when she was baptised Liverpool 8

Briercliffe

04-09-17, 18:59

http://https://www.dropbox.com/s/ilgxzq0o1ib1101/Photo%2004-09-2017%2C%2019%2022%2054.png?dl=0Aww ok thank you

Briercliffe

04-09-17, 19:01

And then she was baptised 3 months and 7 days later

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f0rrozy9wcehhqo/Photo%2004-09-2017%2C%2019%2053%2045.png?dl=0

Briercliffe

04-09-17, 19:02

Birth certificate address Aug 1964

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ilgxzq0o1ib1101/Photo%2004-09-2017%2C%2019%2022%2054.png?dl=0

Merry

04-09-17, 19:09

Is that 18 Hastington Road Liverpool?

Briercliffe

04-09-17, 19:10

I will post the full document now sorry one second xx

Merry

04-09-17, 19:17

Erm are you going to blank his name out? I can see it on that last image!

Perhaps you could just type out the addresses along with his occ for anything you have (and whether there is a middle name or not)

Merry

04-09-17, 19:34

We were told the middle initial was A****** but again not sure how true ...

I don't understand why you said this? Wasn't the 1964 birth registered by the father? (I think I can see the first letter of his signature in the box for who registered the birth). He declared his middle name in full in column 4!! Perhaps I am wrong and it wasn't him who made the registration?

Briercliffe

04-09-17, 19:43

https://www.dropbox.com/s/go8v6v32uutrfeg/Photo%2004-09-2017%2C%2019%2019%2052.jpg?dl=0

Briercliffe

04-09-17, 19:45

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sihmfbn90s0i9d6/Photo%2004-09-2017%2C%2019%2029%2019.jpg?dl=0

Briercliffe

04-09-17, 20:05

Lived at

18 Hastington Road L8
Born August 1964

And Baptised at

Our Lady and St Bernard
95A Kingsley Road L8 2TD (<<<< just to be clear, this is the address of the church)

November 1964

Briercliffe

04-09-17, 20:07

My mum was told it was A****** but we wasn't sure until she found her birth certificate
She always remembered a signature with an A in

Merry

04-09-17, 20:33

Lived at

18 Hastington Road L8
Born August 1964

Thanks for the correction. I will amend my posts.

Merry

04-09-17, 20:36

Oh it's not Hastington Road is it?? I think it's Hartington Road!!

Briercliffe

04-09-17, 21:12

I think that's what it says :/

Briercliffe

04-09-17, 21:13

I could be wrong ...

Briercliffe

04-09-17, 22:07

Is there a way to see who lived at that address in Aug 1964 and does it say more than just a name?

kiterunner

04-09-17, 22:47

Yes, if you go to Liverpool Record Office and look at the electoral register for that year (or contact them and ask them to look it up for you). See post #23 for details.

It will list the names of all registered voters at that address but no, it won't give much more information than the name, unless it has any of the following extra codes:

S before name = Service Voter
L before name = not entitled to vote in respect of that entry at Parliamentary Elections
LC before name = not entitled to vote in respect of that entry at Parliamentary Elections or at Elections of County Councillors
LCR before name = not entitled to vote in respect of that entry at Parliamentary Elections or at Elections of County Councillors or of Rural District Councillors
J after name = liable for service as a Juror
Y before name = coming up to eligible voting age.

If you look up the various addresses that you have, and check a range of years for each address, you should be able to find out what year he moved to each one - if he registered to vote at each one, of course. And you will get the names of any other adults living at the same addresses.

Merry

05-09-17, 06:15

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10990834

These CRS 10s give personal details of each seaman; the front page of the service entries includes:

name;
date of birth;
place of birth;
discharge A number;
rank or rating, with relevant certificate details;
details of any other qualifications;
date CRS 10 first page was created;

But how many with the same name might there be?

Have you googled to see what these CRS10 forms look like? As well as the front page mentioned above there's also continuation pages with, amongst other things, dates of all their sailings etc. See here for more details:

http://www.poheritage.com/our-archive/research-guides/crew/merchant-seamen-general/NextPage?pageIndex=2

If you have the four birth certificates and three of them show TM to have been in attendance and the other one doesn't then he must have been in Liverpool and not at sea at two (because of twins) specific dates (remember it's the registration dates, not the birth dates, so check the dates in column 8) and presumably at sea for the third date (though not necessarily).

Should there be several seamen with the right name etc then you would need to closely examine the dates on their continuation sheets to see if you could eliminate anyone at sea when your man was in Liverpool. Sounds simple enough, but no doubt not completely straightforward, but worth a shot, I would have thought.

I noted there is the potential for this info too (on the CRS10 continuation)

when ashore the sheet may bear the entry MNRP (Merchant Navy Reserve Pool) with date and place.

Though I couldn't see that on any of the images I looked at.

Here's a list of abbreviations used in MS records:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/abbreviations-merchant-seamens-records/

Merry

05-09-17, 06:36

You should read these as well (though some info is duplicated in some of my previous links)

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/records/ifa-merchant-navy-seamen-and-officers-1913-1972.pdf

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/paying-for-research/our-paid-search-service/

As you see, getting TNA to do the research for you is very expensive. If you can get to Kew you can do the research yourself, but there are also individuals who will do paid research work for you. Many of these people are very knowledgeable and may be able to suggest other avenues if you don't get the results you are after.

There's this list, for instance:

https://www.cyndislist.com/uk/military/professionals/ (EDIT - there are a lot of broken links on that page. Sorry, just have a google and you should find people to help.)

(I'm not recommending anyone, just showing you there are people out there who might be able to help)

garstonite

05-09-17, 08:21

OK - Hartington Road is Toxteth and it runs right alongside Toxteth Park Cemetery - huge house - most of which now are turned in to apartments within the big house - #I have asked in The Mariners pub in Garston - one customer is 75 and was the Captain of The Pilot boat on the Mersey for years - he has told me that there are 5 ex Merchant Seamen who meet every Wednesday afternoon in the Masonic in Garston aged 75 to 85 and he will ask about T M - he said he doesn/t recognise the name but remembers a Paddy M who worked for T J Harrison Shipping Line doing the Dakar deep sea trips - so - is Paddy M - T M ?? being Irish he would be called Paddy like a Welshman would be called Taffy or a Scottish man being called Jock - anyway - I am off to Jersey Thursday and am back Sat afternoon so I will probably be back online on Sunday if there is any info ....

garstonite

05-09-17, 08:24

a picture of the type of house in Hartington Road
https://www.nestoria.co.uk/hartington-road-l8/property/buy

and the baptism in Kingsley Rd is about a 10 minute walk away

Merry

05-09-17, 08:28

Allan, can you show them the photo?

garstonite

05-09-17, 09:01

Yes Merry - I will show them the photo - and it would be very ignorant not to have a few pints with them as well ...lol

Merry

05-09-17, 09:09

lol!!

James18

05-09-17, 11:32

@Merry

I don't have enough space to reply to your PM, but I just wanted to say thanks. :d

Merry

05-09-17, 11:35

lol OK!!

Briercliffe

05-09-17, 20:51

Thank you very much

My mum and I are going to Liverpool central library tomorrow to look at the addresses etc

I emailed Kew and I had to Pay £8.90 they will pull the record of name removed out of the seaman files that was shared on here apparently I will hear back if any are in the files by sept 15th then I can pay further for print outs or something...

Thank you very much for everything that you are all doing we are very grateful

garstonite

07-09-17, 06:56

None of the Seamen remember TM - sorry - they didn't recognise him ...There is a pub down Liverpool waterfront named The Liverpool - a lot of ex Seamen drink there - they said they will ask in there ...

Briercliffe

27-09-17, 13:48

Hello All so sorry I haven't been back I was awaiting info
I contacted Kew Gardens and they have completed a record search for me...
they searched the merchant seaman database and there is only ONE name removed in case still living
I now have a date of birth
Please can you advise how I can use this to track my grandad xx

kiterunner

27-09-17, 13:54

It won't have been Kew Gardens, Briercliffe, but the National Archives, which is also at Kew.

I think it will be o.k. if you post the date of birth on here as long as you don't post up his name as well.

Briercliffe

27-09-17, 14:54

Brilliant thank you
His date of birth is 5/7/46
Thank you

kiterunner

27-09-17, 15:29

Doesn't that date of birth rule him out as being the person you're looking for? Isn't your relative supposed to be quite a lot older than that?

Briercliffe

27-09-17, 15:37

Well we were told so many lies

Briercliffe

27-09-17, 15:39

But going on the facts my nan was born in 1942
He was a seaman and had that middle name on my mums birth cert
Two other people told us he spoke with an Irish accent and my nan told my mum he was from cork
And although my nan told my mum he was about ten years older other people told us he was around the same age as my nan!!

Briercliffe

27-09-17, 15:40

This was the only seaman matching all the details that we had

We were missing the dob.
I hope it's him
I just need to know know if he's alive and if so where he is ...

Merry

27-09-17, 15:44

So you now think he was only 18 when he had his first child? Are you sure that is him in the photo on Facebook? Do you know from who the children are when that photo was taken? I find it very hard to believe he was only in his early 20s in that pic (if it's dated, say, 1968 or so)

Merry

27-09-17, 15:47

I thought the seamen's records were supposed to have lots of info about their voyages and dates and you were going to cross ref against the dates you know he was here (because he was available for the birth registrations in a couple of instances) to prove to yourself you have the right record.

Just because it's the only record doesn't make it the right record. For instance, did you ask them for all the men with the same name but no middle name?

kiterunner

27-09-17, 17:34

Briercliffe, did you ever go and look at the electoral registers? Did you find your grandfather listed, and if so, what was the first year that you found him listed? The voting age was 21 until 1970 when it went down to 18, so if he was born in 1946 he wouldn't have been able to vote until 1967. So if he is listed before that year (without a letter Y before his name), it would suggest he isn't the one born in 1946.

Merry

27-09-17, 17:44

Good idea Kite.

Briercliffe

27-09-17, 19:28

Can you get them online at all? We do have a few addresses trouble is we don't know how do do this stuff...

Merry

27-09-17, 20:00

Here's Kite's earlier post about doing eroll lookups:

Yes, if you go to Liverpool Record Office and look at the electoral register for that year (or contact them and ask them to look it up for you). See post #23 for details.

It will list the names of all registered voters at that address but no, it won't give much more information than the name, unless it has any of the following extra codes:

S before name = Service Voter
L before name = not entitled to vote in respect of that entry at Parliamentary Elections
LC before name = not entitled to vote in respect of that entry at Parliamentary Elections or at Elections of County Councillors
LCR before name = not entitled to vote in respect of that entry at Parliamentary Elections or at Elections of County Councillors or of Rural District Councillors
J after name = liable for service as a Juror
Y before name = coming up to eligible voting age.

If you look up the various addresses that you have, and check a range of years for each address, you should be able to find out what year he moved to each one - if he registered to vote at each one, of course. And you will get the names of any other adults living at the same addresses.

Briercliffe

27-09-17, 23:22

Thank you
I am graduating on Friday so I will either go with my mum or call next week xx

Merry

28-09-17, 05:50

Do you have all the addresses from the various birth certificates?

I know you have your mum's birth certificate and I looked back on this thread and saw that on 2 Sept you mentioned information from your mum's sister's birth cert, so presumably you have an address from that one too, but you also said the twins do not have their original birth certificates. Has anyone purchased a copy of one of those since? It might be best to do that before you go to Liverpool Record office, or you may miss out a crucial address! (I don't think an adoption certificate - ie a certificate with the adoptive parents details on it - would include the street of birth, just an area, but I could be wrong on that, never having seen one)