View Full Version : Florence Lena Eighteen
Hi all,
I am trying to work out what became of Florence Lena Eighteen, daughter of Flora (otherwise Florence Matilda) Eighteen.
Florence Lena was born Q1 1898 in Reading; her mother never married - as far as I know - and I have no idea who Florence or her younger sister Elsie's father was. Both births were registered as Eighteen mmn Eighteen.
I have discovered that Elsie married in 1940 and died in 1994, but I can find no trace of Florence after the 1911 census. What complicates matters is that her mother and several other relatives were named Florence and used different variants of the name, which has - no surprises here - led to some confusion on public trees.
I wondered if anyone could perhaps find a marriage or death for Florence, as I keep ending up with the wrong leads, such as:
Florence Emily Eighteen (b. 1898, Hackney)
Emma Lena Fanny Eighteen (b. 1906, Reading)
The two Lena E Eighteen marriages (1927 and 1932) look promising, but I can't find a corresponding death for either, and of course the name's something of a long shot.
Mary from Italy
29-08-17, 00:33
Those marriages aren't for the right person, I don't think.
Lena E Eighteen married Thomas Rushton in 1927, then Lena E Rushton/Eighteen married George H Martin in 1932.
In 1939, Lena E Martin is living with George H Martin in Reading, and gives her dob as 10 Jan 1906. The words "Emma L F" are written above her name.
This is probably that Lena's birth registration:
Births Mar 1906
Eighteen Emma Lena F / Reading 2c 369
Looks like she's the daughter of Albert and Fanny in 1911.
Mary from Italy
29-08-17, 00:40
I haven't found Elsie in 1939 yet (I was hoping to find her with Lena). I see there's a 1994 death in Cheshire in one of the online trees, but the death index gives her dob as 14/4/1903, whereas she actually seems to have born born in q3 1904.
Have you been able to confirm whether the 1940 marriage is correct?
With regard to Elsie and her dob first......
1939 Register:
51 Souldern Street , Watford M.B., Hertfordshire
Elsie M Webb (Simpson, Eighleen), 4 Jun 1904, Female, Domestic Help Daily, Single
with a couple called Newell and one closed record.
There is a marriage in Q1 1954 for Elsie M Simpson to Henry W Webb in Watford District 4b 658.
There's no death with the correct dob, and earlier ones seem a long way away when there is this one which seems v possible:
Elsie May Webb
dob 1905
death reg Sep 1972
District Watford 4b 722
Well, as usual I've gone round in circles not writing anything down! I think I've eliminated all the likely Flo* Eighteen entries and got very bogged down because everywhere I turned different possible people (who looked like either FLE or her mother) were linked to people called Gibbons yet I realise the one Eighteen/Gibbons marriage isn't either of them.
You said the mum never married. Which death do you think is hers? The 1871/1935 one in Newbury? Was she Flora at birth and Flora Matilda in 1881 dau of John and Sarah?
Was she Flora at birth and Flora Matilda in 1881 dau of John and Sarah?
Oops, you already told me that!
kiterunner
29-08-17, 08:38
There's a tree on ancestry which has her marrying a Thomas Whittaker in 1920 in Lancashire. The marriage is on Lancs BMD as Florence Selina Eighteen, Old Fylde Register Office or Registrar Attended. Can we rule this out (or in)?
kiterunner
29-08-17, 08:45
There is a Florence Selina birth in Reading in 1890, but also a Florence Selina marriage in Reading in 1910 (Berkshire BMD has it as 1909, to Edward W Lock, and going back to FreeBMD he is down as Edward William Lock.) Could be Florence S Lock who died Apr-Jun 1963 Wokingham.
I told you this would be confusing! :D
And yes, there are one or two Florence Selinas who are cousins or one sort or another; they're not (yet) on my Eighteen tree and so I don't have their details, but as far as I can see they're a bit older.
Mary, looks like the two marriages I saw are indeed for Emma Lena Fanny Eighteen, so thanks for ruling those out. That's two less to worry about.
Merry, the mother was registered as Flora but baptized as Florence Matilda, and indeed I would suggest the 1935 Newbury death is for her. My initial assumption was that the 1994 Cheshire death was for Elsie as I couldn't find a reference to another woman of the same name (either born or married) and her DOB being a year out didn't really worry me. I hadn't found the 1972 Warford death, though, or the Webb name, so you've thrown me a bit now.
I ruled out the Whittaker marriage as being the 1890 Florence Selina's, but of course I could be wrong.
So far I've been unable to find anything that I think is her.
Kate - Oh, I didn't look hard enough for that one then!
One tree has FLE as the mother of Gregory George Eighteen b 2 Jan 1915, but I don't think he is on the 1939 Register to help.
Did you check out the Locks in 1911?
I would check the Whittakers in 1939 and Locks in 1911 and then in 1939, but I have to go out now
kiterunner
29-08-17, 09:14
I haven't got an FMP sub so not got very far with looking for them (the Whittakers) in 1939, plus we don't know Florence Lena's exact birth date.
The Locks in 1911, and Florence is 21 so looks to be the one born 1890:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_06580_0383_03/44528177?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
kiterunner
29-08-17, 09:15
Florence Selina Lock is with Edward William Lock in 1939, birth year 1891.
So it doesn't look likely that the Florence Selina Eighteen who married Thomas Whittaker is the one born 1890.
Yeah, if she's on a census then it definitely isn't the right person, as both Florence Lena and Elsie May are with their mother in Reading on the 1911 census.
kiterunner
29-08-17, 09:21
Yes, so what I'm saying is that I still think Florence Lena could be the Florence Selina who married Thomas Whittaker, as that one can't be the Florence Selina who was born 1890.
True. Hopefully Merry can dig up some more info from the 1939 Register later.
Good detective work, Kate. :)
I had a five minute look at the 1939 Register before I went out. The Whittakers are not being helpful! No children that I could see to place them anywhere. No middle initial for Thomas on the marriage. No sign of them together on the 1930s erolls in Lancs etc etc.
Will have a better look now......
Merry, there is a Q4 1946 Nicol / Eighteen birth in Fylde. It seems quite out the way for the family in general, so I'm wondering if it might perhaps be a grandchild. It's very likely too late to be a child of Florence.
I won't post the names as they may well still be alive.
There's a marriage in Southend in Q1 1946!
kiterunner
29-08-17, 12:40
James, I think you might have to get Florence Lena's birth cert (to get exact date of birth) and / or the Thomas Whittaker / Florence Selina Eighteen marriage cert for more info to be able to trace her forward.
I did wonder if Florence married the Thomas Whittaker who was 20 years her senior and died in Fylde in 1921? If she did then getting the marriage cert may not help. There was another Thomas b 1891 who died much later in Fylde, but it's not him as he is on the 1939 Register with a different wife who he married before 1920.
There are a number of Florence Whittaker births, marriages and deaths in Fylde =/
I wonder if this is Elsie's second husband:
Deaths Jun 1971
WEBB Henry William 23Ap1908 Watford 4b 872
kiterunner
29-08-17, 15:01
Does the date of birth on that match his (Elsie's husband's) dob on the 1939 Register, James? There's only one Henry William Webb birth registered Apr-Jun 1908 on the GRO index.
Edit - never mind, reading back through, I see they weren't yet married in 1939!
I don't know, I don't have a FMP sub at the moment, either. Merry found Elsie on the Register but didn't (as I recall) mention her husband's details, so perhaps she'd be kind enough to check.
Presumably it'll either be the June/Islington or September/Orsett birth.
For the first husband there's this:
Deaths Sep 1953
SIMPSON William 60 Watford 4b 196
...but of course, it's always possible he died outside of Watford.
Hmm, this one has photos, too...
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/879654/person/-2034060500/facts
I'm a bit confused now, as there's also a William James Simpson Q4 1892 Watford birth that I can't find any marriage/death for and thought might be the same man, but apparently not?
Merry found Elsie on the Register but didn't (as I recall) mention her husband's details
No, because she wasn't married at that date! (as Kate said)
You said the mum never married. Which death do you think is hers? The 1871/1935 one in Newbury?
???
???
I replied to you in post #9:
Merry, the mother was registered as Flora but baptized as Florence Matilda, and indeed I would suggest the 1935 Newbury death is for her.
I replied to you in post #9:
Oooh, sorry, I hadn't read any of post #9 before :o A couple of other posts make more sense now I've read that one!
With regard to the Newbury death for Flora/Florence Matilda Eighteen. I found a tree on Ancestry with the following info about the death cert for Florence Eighteen in Newbury........ it says:
24-2-1935 • Newbury Berks.
Cert.Says, Florence Eighteen age 64, daughter of --- Eighteen a fishmonger. Died at 214 Newtown Rd. Newbury, usual address 55 St. George's Ave. Newbury. Informant H.W.Hillman Occupier of 214 Newtown Rd. Newbury. Cause of death. Brain haemorrhage. No P.M.
I see her father was a fish dealer in 1881 so I'm guessing the missing word is John and that it is the correct cert, though I would imagine the informant didn't know the first name rather than the owner of the cert not being able to read the entry, as they do have the right name for Flora's father on their tree.
So, that's one thing confirmed! :D
I did wonder if H W Hillman was a relation (preferably a new partner for Florence Lena!), but it doesn't look likely. I looked at 214 Newtown Road Newbury in 1939 and found the full address shows it was an institution:
214 Public Assistance Institution Newtown Road, Newbury
(at earlier dates it was named Newbury Union workhouse)
The first resident listed is:
Horace W Hillman 21 Dec 1892 Male Master Of Institution Married
So, I don't think he is going to help us any further.
At 55 St George's Ave in 1939 were Walter and Blanche Hopson (both b 1884) and their adult children, so they don't appear to help with anything either.
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