My son ...... Retinger

[Phoenix]

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5111/40611_311504-00208/357911?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/46912381/person/6643370182/facts/citation/1120321027375/edit/record

The above PCC will mentions on line 8 of the second page "My son ..... Retinger"

The will is that of Mary Ann Hughes, nee Baggerley, and the introduction into her well-ordered existence of a son who bore the name neither of her husband or her father worried me.

I struggle with the round hand, and the nearest approximation I could find to the first name was Peter, but the first letter looked like an S.

It has taken me an hour to realise that the law-writer was NOT up to snuff. Mary Ann is describing her SISTER, Helen, otherwise Eleanor Retinger :rolleyes:

Thus far, I am pleased with myself, But can anyone find Eleanor, and her daughter, also Eleanor, in the Drury Lane area of London in 1841 and 1851? Eleanor is in rating records up to 1837, but she does not appear to have moved very far, if she did, from the address at Blackmoor Street, Clare Market.

Eleanor was bp in Sutton, Northamptonshire in 1795: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/9198/SUTTON-S-1788-1859_00017/9504129?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/46912381/person/410135223752/facts/citation/1120321029161/edit/record

[ElizabethHerts]

Yes, I saw Helen straight away, and then I noticed SON!!!

[kiterunner]

I assume you have already seen that Eleanor Retinger's death was registered Jul-Sep 1855 Strand district, age 59?

[kiterunner]

Also there was a Susannah Retinger baptised 29 Oct 1826 at St Clement Danes, daughter of John and Eleanor.
And Eleanor jr (I assume) married a Joseph Thomas 16 Jul 1854 at St Clement Danes. The transcription / index on ancestry shows her age as 21, so she would have been born about 1833, unless they have misunderstood and she was any age over 21, since it looks as though Eleanor's husband died in 1828!
This is John's will: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1704/31787_a002693-00506/253871?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dCzj3860%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3dlondwills%26so% 3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3djoh n%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dret*ng*r*%26gsln_x%3d1%26c pxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26 MSV%3d1%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[Phoenix]

Ooh, thanks, Kite. That will is brilliant, as it is witnessed by a Cooper and the mysterious Ann Llewellin, who only ever appears as a widow. (Mary Ann and Eleanor's mother was a Cooper and Ann was their aunt)

[kiterunner]

Susan(nah) married a Henry Markham 8 Oct 1850 at St Clement Danes. I assume the images for all these will be on FMP but I don't have a sub. Her marriage record and Eleanor jr's might give addresses though more likely will just say they lived in the parish.
There is another daughter Mary Ann baptised 27 Mar 1825 (mother's name down as Ellen).

There is a Susan Rattinger, age 16, convicted on the 12 Jun 1843 of stealing a shawl:
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=t18430612-1983
Wonder whether it's Susannah Retinger?

[Phoenix]

Oh the shame! It sounds very like her - certainly the right area and the right age.

[kiterunner]

Hmm, I would have thought this was Susannah in 1851 with Henry Markham, but her birthplace is given as Lambeth:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8860/SRYHO107_1568_1569-0540/821408?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=SRYHO107_15 68_1569-0540

But maybe her birthplace has been swapped with Henry's?


Still looking for the two Eleanors!

[kiterunner]

Here they are in 1841:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8978/MDXCHO107_731_731-0140/16471194?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1841%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_db%2 6new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsf n%3dsus*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dr*t*g*%26gsln_x%3d1 %26msbdy%3d1826%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26MSAV%3 d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

At Clare Court: Eleanor 45, Mary Ann 16, Susannah 14, Eleanor 9, Frederick 5, and Charles 2 months. Hmm, John didn't father all those children if he died in 1828. I think Eleanor's occupation is "Washer" but it's hard to make out.

[kiterunner]

1851 census - still at Clare Court:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8860/MDXHO107_1512_1512-0535/2707020?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Ellen Retinger Widow W 54 Notts Sutton
Frederick Retinger Son U 14 Middx St Clem

[Phoenix]

Ooh, well done!

Considering that Mary Ann left jewels to her own daughter, Eleanor had really come down in the world.

Just found her on FMP, still at 4 Clare Court in 1851. Frederick, aged 14, is the only child still with her.

[kiterunner]

Just found her on FMP, still at 4 Clare Court in 1851. Frederick, aged 14, is the only child still with her.

As in post #10.

[Phoenix]

Thank you, Kite.

Ellen in 1851 is servant to William Kelly, publisher of the Post Office Directory, at 8 Cooks Court.

[Phoenix]

Hmm Cahrles disappears without trace. Mary Ann is still single in 1854, but can't find her on censuses after 1841 and poor Fred dies aged 21.

Hope the girls had better times.

[Phoenix]

I should compile a database of witnesses. John Retinger is a witness, with Ann Llewellin, to a family marriage.