View Full Version : Trying to find Granfather s family
Hi , I have come up with a puzzler . My grandfather James Moss was born in Pemberton in approx 1887 , but so was another James moss . I know he married Jane Whalley in approx 1906 at Wigan register office . But I would like to find out which family tree I should follow . It is a puzzler for me as I haven't got a lot of info on him . Any help would be gratefully received. Thanks
Welcome to the forum Qwackers!
The obvious route would be to purchase a copy of his marriage cert as this should supply you with his father's name, so unless both father's have the same name and occupation you should easily be able to get on the right track.
Having said that, I'll have a look to see if there's anything else that might help....
In 1911 there are two (as you said)
James Moss b 1885 Pemberton married to Elizabeth Ann for 5 years
and James Moss b 1887 Pemberton married to Jane for 3 years
So, the second one is yours (the marriage for him and Jane was in 1908)
The first James has a boarder named Jane Moss b 1844 Winstaley, Lancashire. I wondered if she is actually a relation which might be a clue. Of course she could easily be a relation of both James's! lol
On to look at something else....
Things are worse in 1901 as there are three James Moss entries b Pemberton around the same date:
James parents George and Margaret b 1885
James parents Thomas and Elizabeth b 1888
James parents James and Margaret b 1888
Do you know when your James died? Was it after 1939? I could see if he is on the 1939 register with his date of birth?
He's here (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_23061_0173_03?pid=24002422&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH1806%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-g%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3DJames%26 gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3DMoss%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D18 87%26msbpn__ftp%3DPemberton,%2520Lancashire,%2520E ngland%26msbpn%3D84949%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5271%257C84949%257C0%257C0%257C%26cpxt%3D1%26cp %3D11%26catbucket%3Dr%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pc at%3DROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3D24002422%26dbid%3D2352%26 indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH1806&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) in 1911; curiously, both James Moss' are hewers at the local colliery.
The other James Moss is here (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_23068_0427_03?pid=19538223&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH1806%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-g%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3DJames%26 gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3DMoss%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D18 87%26msbpn__ftp%3DPemberton,%2520Lancashire,%2520E ngland%26msbpn%3D84949%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5271%257C84949%257C0%257C0%257C%26cpxt%3D1%26cp %3D11%26catbucket%3Dr%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pc at%3DROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3D19538223%26dbid%3D2352%26 indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D7&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH1806&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) in 1911, with wife Elizabeth.
Going back, I'd suggest - with no evidence, so take this with a pinch of salt - that your grandfather is here (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/LANRG12_3064_3065-0369?pid=25853160&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH1806%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-g%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3DJames%26 gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3DMoss%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D18 87%26msbpn__ftp%3DPemberton,%2520Lancashire,%2520E ngland%26msbpn%3D84949%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5271%257C84949%257C0%257C0%257C%26cpxt%3D1%26cp %3D11%26catbucket%3Dr%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pc at%3DROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3D25853160%26dbid%3D6598%26 indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D4&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH1806&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) in 1891 and here (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7814/LANRG13_3568_3571-0046?pid=22200635&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH1806%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-g%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3DJames%26 gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3DMoss%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D18 87%26msbpn__ftp%3DPemberton,%2520Lancashire,%2520E ngland%26msbpn%3D84949%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5271%257C84949%257C0%257C0%257C%26cpxt%3D1%26cp %3D11%26catbucket%3Dr%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pc at%3DROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3D22200635%26dbid%3D7814%26 indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D6&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH1806&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) in 1901; I say this because his mother is called Margaret and he has sisters named Mary Jane and Margaret, and your grandfather later had children of the same names.
Gosh, I hadn't realised just how common his name would be in Wigan district!!
There are loads of them! The sub-district is called Pemberton. I don't know if I can separate off the birth entries in that sub-district using Lancs BMD?
He's here (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_23061_0173_03?pid=24002422&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH1806%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-g%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3DJames%26 gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3DMoss%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D18 87%26msbpn__ftp%3DPemberton,%2520Lancashire,%2520E ngland%26msbpn%3D84949%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5271%257C84949%257C0%257C0%257C%26cpxt%3D1%26cp %3D11%26catbucket%3Dr%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pc at%3DROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3D24002422%26dbid%3D2352%26 indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH1806&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) in 1911; curiously, both James Moss' are hewers at the local colliery.
The other James Moss is here (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_23068_0427_03?pid=19538223&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH1806%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-g%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3DJames%26 gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3DMoss%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D18 87%26msbpn__ftp%3DPemberton,%2520Lancashire,%2520E ngland%26msbpn%3D84949%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5271%257C84949%257C0%257C0%257C%26cpxt%3D1%26cp %3D11%26catbucket%3Dr%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pc at%3DROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3D19538223%26dbid%3D2352%26 indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D7&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH1806&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) in 1911, with wife Elizabeth.
Going back, I'd suggest - with no evidence, so take this with a pinch of salt - that your grandfather is here (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/LANRG12_3064_3065-0369?pid=25853160&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH1806%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-g%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3DJames%26 gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3DMoss%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D18 87%26msbpn__ftp%3DPemberton,%2520Lancashire,%2520E ngland%26msbpn%3D84949%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5271%257C84949%257C0%257C0%257C%26cpxt%3D1%26cp %3D11%26catbucket%3Dr%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pc at%3DROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3D25853160%26dbid%3D6598%26 indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D4&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH1806&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) in 1891 and here (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7814/LANRG13_3568_3571-0046?pid=22200635&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH1806%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-g%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3DJames%26 gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3DMoss%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D18 87%26msbpn__ftp%3DPemberton,%2520Lancashire,%2520E ngland%26msbpn%3D84949%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5271%257C84949%257C0%257C0%257C%26cpxt%3D1%26cp %3D11%26catbucket%3Dr%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pc at%3DROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3D22200635%26dbid%3D7814%26 indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D6&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH1806&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) in 1901; I say this because his mother is called Margaret and he has sisters named Mary Jane and Margaret, and your grandfather later had children of the same names.
You're brave James! We don't want the wrong one at this level of the tree! (Well, we don't want the wrong person at any point obviously, but you know what I mean!)
James, in 1901 there are two James Moss entries with mother Margaret!
Maybe more than a pinch, then. ;)
(I do like naming patterns, though -- if the OP knows of a history of using the same names for children through the family tree then odds are that Margaret Ann and Mary Jane are a useful clue).
- James I'm not saying what your saying is wrong, just that no one wants the wrong grandfather (or great-grandparents) on their tree, so we need to be close to 100% sure!
What else can we do? Buying the marriage cert is the easiest way.....:D
Can we find a church marriage for the James who married Elizabeth Ann and eliminate one father/family?
I have to go and look at cooking something now. Back later.
You're quite right, Merry, of course. You're always right. :p
I was just going with gut instinct... for now.
And would these (1904 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2576/32883_276405-00470?pid=20407933&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss%3Dangs-g%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsfn%3DJames%26gsfn_x%3D0 %26gsln%3DMoss%26gsln_x%3D0%26msgdy%3D1908%26msgpn __ftp%3DPemberton%252c%2BLancashire%252c%2BEngland %26msgpn%3D84949%26msgpn_PInfo%3D8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5271%257c84949%257c0%257c0%257c%26mssng%3DJane% 26mssns%3DWhalley%26cpxt%3D1%26cp%3D11%26catbucket %3Dr%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pcat%3DROOT_CATEGOR Y%26h%3D20407933%26recoff%3D8%2B28%2B29%2B41%26dbi d%3D2576%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D1%26hovR%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true) / 1906 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2576/32883_276405-00467?pid=20407889&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH1808%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-g%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsfn%3DJames%26gsfn_x%3D0 %26gsln%3DMoss%26gsln_x%3D0%26msgdy%3D1908%26msgpn __ftp%3DPemberton,%2520Lancashire,%2520England%26m sgpn%3D84949%26msgpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5271%257C84949%257C0%257C0%257C%26mssng%3DJane% 26mssns%3DWhalley%26cpxt%3D1%26cp%3D11%26catbucket %3Dr%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pcat%3DROOT_CATEGOR Y%26h%3D20407889%26recoff%3D8%252028%252029%252041 %26dbid%3D2576%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D2&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH1808&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true)) be from the same families?
kiterunner
21-08-17, 16:05
Hi , I have come up with a puzzler . My grandfather James Moss was born in Pemberton in approx 1887 , but so was another James moss . I know he married Jane Whalley in approx 1906 at Wigan register office . But I would like to find out which family tree I should follow . It is a puzzler for me as I haven't got a lot of info on him . Any help would be gratefully received. Thanks
The marriage was 1908, not 1906. I reckon you will need to order a copy of the marriage certificate to see his father's name and occupation etc to make sure you follow the right family.
kiterunner
21-08-17, 16:12
Can we find a church marriage for the James who married Elizabeth Ann and eliminate one father/family?
Even if we did that, it wouldn't necessarily follow that the James who is left is definitely the right one! Best to get the marriage cert.
Yes, James and I know YOU are the one who is always right (not me! lol James :D)
I did wonder if the right James Moss was on the 1939 register that might help, but I couldn't see an obvious match.
Just to further prove that Kite is right ......
The James Moss who was married to Elizabeth Ann on the 1911 census was the son of John Moss, collier, according to the 1906 entry in the Wigan C of E marriages on Ancestry. So he isn't any of the three men I mentioned earlier from the 1901 census who were apparently born in Pemberton around 1887.
He's none of these.....
James parents George and Margaret b 1885
James parents Thomas and Elizabeth b 1888
James parents James and Margaret b 1888
:o:o:o
Hi , thanks , you seem to be getting some answers , to my question I don't know when my grandfather died , but I presume , it was before 1839 has I think my mother was young when he died . Apparently after he came back from the First World War he was never the same again like so many other soldiers . Maybe I can get the marriage certificate from Wigan and see if it mentions fathers name . I never met him . So the information is difficult , my gran remarried . Later thanks
kiterunner
22-08-17, 10:08
There is a James Moss death registered Jul-Sep 1932 Wigan, age 45, which could be him.
Do you know when your grandmother remarried and/or to who?
You can order a copy of the marriage cert through this site:
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/marriagesearch.php
though I see the cost is now £15, so £5 more than through the GRO:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/#0
The main difference being that the GRO copy won't have original signatures on it.
Qwackers purchased the 1908 marriage cert for James Moss and Jane Whalley.
She has pm'd me some of the details, but I thought I'd post them here because I don't have time to look right now.
I have just received the marriage certificate for Jane Whalley and James moss . It states father as being deceased name James . Address given for him is Greenalls yard Chapel st Pemberton . So that address may be a clue , if we can try and find out whom he married and his mothers name.
There is a father ps name with occupation , he was a coal miner . And one of the witnesses is a Richard wright , who I think I have seen on a census earlier . With wife's name , Margeret , which is quite helpful
kiterunner
02-02-18, 18:35
I assume you mean that James Moss's father was deceased, name James Moss? The address on the marriage certificate will be James jr's address, not his father's. I don't understand what you mean by a "father ps name", sorry. And I don't quite understand what you mean about Richard Wright's wife? Do you mean you have seen Richard on a census with a wife named Margaret? Or that the witnesses were named Richard Wright and Margaret Wright, which wouldn't necessarily mean that they were husband and wife?
kiterunner
02-02-18, 18:43
Ah, this is the 1891 census entry which James18 suggested in post #5:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/LANRG12_3064_3065-0369?pid=25853160&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH1806%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-g%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3DJames%26 gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3DMoss%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D18 87%26msbpn__ftp%3DPemberton,%2520Lancashire,%2520E ngland%26msbpn%3D84949%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5271%257C84949%257C0%257C0%257C%26cpxt%3D1%26cp %3D11%26catbucket%3Dr%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pc at%3DROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3D25853160%26dbid%3D6598%26 indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D4&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH1806&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true
16 White St, Pemberton, Lancashire
James Moss Head M 49 Coal Miner Lanc Pemberton
Margaret Do Wife M 42 Pottery Labourer Do Do
Mary Jane Do Daur 14 Cotton Spinner Do Do
Margaret Ann Do Do 6 Scholar Do Do
James Do Son 3 Do Do
Richard Wright Lodger S 27 Coal Miner Do Do.
So that must be your James's family.
kiterunner
02-02-18, 18:47
And this is the 1901 census entry which James18 found:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7814/LANRG13_3568_3571-0046?pid=22200635&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH1806%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-g%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3DJames%26 gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3DMoss%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D18 87%26msbpn__ftp%3DPemberton,%2520Lancashire,%2520E ngland%26msbpn%3D84949%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5271%257C84949%257C0%257C0%257C%26cpxt%3D1%26cp %3D11%26catbucket%3Dr%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pc at%3DROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3D22200635%26dbid%3D7814%26 indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D6&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH1806&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true
16 off White St, Pemberton
James Moss Head M 59 Retired Soldier (? I think that's what it says) General Labourer Lancs Pemberton
Margaret Do Wife M 52 Colliery Surface Labourer Do Do
Margaret A Do Daur S 16 Cotton Spinner Do Do
James Do Son S 13 Labourer in Coal Mine Do Do
Richard Wright Boarder S 39 Coal Miner (Hewer) Do Do.
kiterunner
02-02-18, 18:53
And Richard Wright married Margaret Moss in Apr-Jun 1908 Wigan register office or registrar attended. They are on the same GRO page number as James Moss and Jane Whalley, so it looks to have been a double wedding!
kiterunner
02-02-18, 19:04
Lancashire BMD has these births at Pemberton:
1877 Mary Jane Moss, MMN Leicester (GRO index shows registered Apr-Jun quarter)
1885 Margaret Ann Moss, MMN Leicester (GRO index shows registered Apr-Jun quarter)
1887 James Moss, MMN Leicester (GRO index shows registered Oct-Dec quarter).
James Moss married Margaret Leicester in 1870 at St Thomas, Wigan. This is their marriage certificate, on ancestry:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60562/41177_334262-00132?pid=341672&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DCtf7962%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3Djames%26 gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln%3Dmoss%26gsln_x%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3 D1%26msgdy%3D1870%26msgdy_x%3D1%26mssng%3Dmarg*%26 mssng_x%3D1%26cpxt%3D1%26cp%3D11%26catbucket%3Drst p%26MSAV%3D2%26pcat%3DBMD_MARRIAGE%26h%3D341672%26 dbid%3D60562%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D4&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ctf7962&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true
24th Apr 1870, James Moss 27 bachelor, collier, residence Clayton St, father James Moss, deceased. Margaret Leicester 21 spinster, residence Miry Lane, father James Leicester, fireman. Witnesses James Leicester and Elizabeth Leicester.
kiterunner
02-02-18, 19:15
Other Moss / Leicester births at Pemberton:
William 1870, James and Mary Jane 1875, Ann 1879, Rachel 1881. There are possible deaths for this Mary Jane in 1870, age 0, for James in 1871, age 1, and for Ann in 1880, age 0. Also for Rachel in 1882, age 1.
This looks like the family in 1881, except that Margaret's husband James is missing:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7572/LANRG11_3779_3784-0322/9660317?backurl=https%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1881%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db %26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dmary %26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dmoss%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy%3 d1878%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26gskw%3dpemb*%26g skw_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV%3d1%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
528 Ormskirk Rd, Wigan
James Lester Head Mar 60 Furnessman in Coal Mine Lancashire Pemberton
Mary Lester Wife Do 64 Do Do
Margaret Moss Head Mar 32 Coal miner's wife Do Pemberton
William Do Son 10 Scholar Do Orrell
Mary Jane Do Daur 4 Do Do.
I have purchased the marriage certificate for my grandma and grandfather , father James deseased was a coal miner , there is witnesses Richard Wright who I have seen on a previous census . And pd a Margeret Moss which could potentially be is mother or sister. It's quite difficult has there are a lot of moss 's in the area . But a clue to this was my py mum was a Margeret , and had sisters Mary Jane and Elizabeth .so I understand about naming your siblings from family's previous . Any help gratefully received. Thanks
There is also a marriage in 1868 for a James Moss to Jane ainscough at St. John's Pemberton .
Could this potentially his wife , I'm unsure now who he married . The family in white st his him as the address on the census suggests it there . So I'm sure it's them . Now to establish the wife's name ? Thanks for all your help
I think my grandmother remarried after James moss died in 1932 , I believe that's him , he never recovered from the war and shell shock I think he died in Orrell . No Pemberton my grandma married a Tom Atherton but I don't know what year , I remember him from being a child , as I never met my grandfather James . If this is any help thanks
There is also a marriage in 1868 for a James Moss to Jane ainscough at St. John's Pemberton .
Could this potentially his wife , I'm unsure now who he married . The family in white st his him as the address on the census suggests it there . So I'm sure it's them . Now to establish the wife's name ? Thanks for all your help
I don't understand what you are saying above.
James Moss junior, (the one who married a Jane (Whalley) wasn't born until 1887 so he can't have married in 1868. His father was married to a Margaret (Leicester), so I don't see why you would think the Moss/Ainscough marriage would belong to that James either.
Going back the beginning - you seem unsure as to the identity of your Jane grandmother (was her surname Whalley or something else?) - you need to positively identify the birth certificate of your parent who was their child (sorry, I don't know if that's your mother or your father!) as the birth certificate will have your parent's mother's maiden name on it. Is that Whalley or something else? If it's something else then we have been looking at the wrong people from the start of this thread, as in post #1 you stated:
I know he married Jane Whalley in approx 1906 at Wigan register office .
:D:D:D
So, what is the mother's maiden name on your Moss parent's birth certificate?
If I've completely got the wrong end of the stick, maybe you could explain what you meant in post #29?
Hi , yes you suggested that James 's father James married into the Leicester family , but he could have also married a Jane Ainscough in 1868 , there marriage took place in st Johns Pemberton which is in that area . It's only a suggestion . As now I am trying to establish the mothers maiden name of James born 1887 . As there are quite a few options , as this name is very common to the area . The census of 1901 looks fine I think that is the right family . So I hope that clarifys what I'm saying . James moss could have died in 1932 so that may be a clue thanks
Hi , yes I do know what my grandmas name was , yes it is Jane Whalley , I've got the marriage certificate as I have stated so that isn't an issue . I'm trying to find out who was James mosses mother because there are potentially quite a few and in that area of Pemberton . I was born there and it isn't a big place .the names are quite common ones . I'm only also suggesting that James ' s father could have married a Jane Ainscough in 1868 at St. John's Pemberton her name could ne Margeret Jane . The church is quite close to what was a small village outside of Wigan hope this helps
I think my grandmother remarried after James moss died in 1932 , I believe that's him , he never recovered from the war and shell shock I think he died in Orrell . No Pemberton my grandma married a Tom Atherton but I don't know what year , I remember him from being a child , as I never met my grandfather James . If this is any help thanks
This could be the remarriage for your grandmother:
Marriages Dec 1943
Atherton Thomas Moss Ince 8c 165
Moss Jane Atherton Ince 8c 165
In which case she should be widow Jane Moss on the 1939 register.
Unfortunately, I've not been able to positively identify her as yet in 1939.
You said you remember her.....Might this be her death?
Deaths Jun 1953
ATHERTON Jane 67 Ince 10c 462
Hi , yes you suggested that James 's father James married into the Leicester family , but he could have also married a Jane Ainscough in 1868 , there marriage took place in st Johns Pemberton which is in that area . It's only a suggestion . As now I am trying to establish the mothers maiden name of James born 1887 . As there are quite a few options , as this name is very common to the area . The census of 1901 looks fine I think that is the right family . So I hope that clarifys what I'm saying . James moss could have died in 1932 so that may be a clue thanks
OK I understand what you mean now.
This is his birth reg:
MOSS, JAMES mmn LEICESTER
GRO Reference: 1887 D Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 137
If you look back at posts #22 #23 #25 and #26 you will see Kate has identified the correct census for your James junior and then cross referenced the info on those censuses with the birth registrations to be sure there are matches for all the siblings recorded on the census. That's how we know Leicester is the right mother's name and not anything else.
Also, there are no birth registrations for a James Moss with mmn Ainscough between 1885 and 1890 in Wigan district.
I have identified James Moss and Jane Ainscough in 1871 (from the birth reg of their dau Isabella who is with them on that census) and that James was around 8 years younger than your James senr plus of course, your James and Margaret can be seen with the Lester/Leicester family at that date.
Here is your family in 1871:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/LANRG10_3895_3897-0182/27616930?backurl=https%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co. uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dOuS4400%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1871%26so%3d 2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3djames%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dmoss%26gsln_x%3 d1%26msbdy%3d1840%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26gskw %3dpemberton%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26c atbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV%3d1%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
(Leicester's nextdoor)
Do you have a sub for Ancestry or fmp? If not I will need to type that out.
Sorry I don't but once again you have been truly helpful , Your a star ????????????
Hi , regarding my grandma Jane athertons death she died in the 1970s she was over 80 years old in Orrell that's where she was living near to where she was born in Upholland
Hi , regarding my grandma Jane athertons death she died in the 1970s she was over 80 years old in Orrell that's where she was living near to where she was born in Upholland
Ok, so ignore the death reg in post #34.
If she died at home (in Orrell) then that's in Ince district between 1936 and the end of Q1 1974 and Wigan district from Q2 1974. Did she die at home or in hospital?
If she died at home then there are these possible registrations, birth to within two years of 1888 and death to within five years of 1975;
Deaths Jun 1972
ATHERTON Jane 19Oc1888 Ince 10c 1051
Deaths Mar 1978
ATHERTON JANE 13OC1888 WIGAN 39 2811
Deaths Sep 1979
ATHERTON JANE 15MR1889 WIGAN 39 2189
None of those dates of birth have helped me to find Jane on the 1939 register, where she should be Jane Moss, so I can't tie down which is the right death. Maybe you would know if she died in 1972 aged 83, but the other two are probably going to be too difficult to separate from memory only!!
What were Jane's father's details on the 1908 marriage cert?
kiterunner
03-02-18, 12:28
The 1979 death is on the National Probate Calendar: ATHERTON Jane of Norley Hall Hostel Pemberton Wigan died 23 August 1979 Probate Liverpool 9 November £4038.
1871 Census
North Row Orrell, Lancashire
James Leicester head m 54 fireman at a colliery b Lancs St Helens
Mary Leicester wife m 52 domestic b Lancs Pemberton
Rachel Leicester dau unm 18 rover at a cotton mill b ditto
Jane Leicester dau 12 scholar b Lancs Orrell
next household:
James Moss head m 27 labourer at a colliery b Pemberton
Margaret Moss wife m 20 ditto b Pemberton
William Moss son 2mths b Orrell
kiterunner
03-02-18, 12:40
Oh, I just realised - censuses are free to view on FMP till the 8th of Feb (but not the 1939 Register), so we should post links to FMP for Qwackers to look at. I'll make a start.
Have to go out now but I have traced a couple of those people who died in the 1970s in 1939, so may be able to eliminate that way. Will post again when I get back!
kiterunner
03-02-18, 12:53
Qwackers, here are links to the census records on Findmypast, which are free to view until the 8th Feb. You will need to log into Findmypast to view them, and if you don't have an account on there already you will need to register, but you won't need to pay.
James and Jane Moss in 1911:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1911%2frg14%2f23061%2f0173&parentid=gbc%2f1911%2frg14%2f23061%2f0173%2f1&highlights=%22%22&fulfillmentTypeKey=1382
James with his parents in 1891:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1891%2f3065%2f0064&parentid=gbc%2f1891%2f0021037961&highlights=%22%22
and James with his parents in 1901:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1901%2f3567-3568%2f0449&parentid=gbc%2f1901%2f0023203188&highlights=%22%22
The Leicester and Moss families in 1881:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1881%2f4023531%2f00318&parentid=gbc%2f1881%2f0017383491&highlights=%22%22
and the Leicester and Moss families in 1871:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1871%2f3896%2f0154&parentid=gbc%2f1871%2f0011783582&highlights=%22%22
Thank you your all stars Have a good weekend ??????
I don't think that was my Grandma as she died at home
kiterunner
03-02-18, 15:03
This could be the remarriage for your grandmother:
Marriages Dec 1943
Atherton Thomas Moss Ince 8c 165
Moss Jane Atherton Ince 8c 165
In which case she should be widow Jane Moss on the 1939 register.
Unfortunately, I've not been able to positively identify her as yet in 1939.
She should be indexed as Jane Atherton (Moss) on the 1939 Register, but I can't find any likely entries.
kiterunner
03-02-18, 15:05
Also, as Merry said earlier, we could do with the information about Jane and her father from her marriage certificate (the one where she married James Moss), please.
These are the deaths from post #40:
Deaths Jun 1972
ATHERTON Jane 19Oc1888 Ince 10c 1051
Deaths Mar 1978
ATHERTON JANE 13OC1888 WIGAN 39 2811
Deaths Sep 1979
ATHERTON JANE 15MR1889 WIGAN 39 2189
Qwackers said the third one probably wasn't the correct death as the probate entry said she was of Norley Hall Hostel Pemberton Wigan, which is not the correct address.
Not only that, but I found this Jane Atherton in 1939 with the same date of birth and she is single:
24 Arthur Street , Wigan C.B., Lancashire
Jane Atherton 15 Mar 1889 Female Cotton Weaver Single
The Jane who died in 1972 seems to be Jane Atherton, late Banks, formerly Riley. Her Atherton husband was Alfred, so apparently also not the right death.
So, that potentially leaves the Jane b 13 Oct 1888 and died Q1 1978 aged 89. As expected I couldn't find anyone to fit this date and forename on the 1939 register!
Looking at the birth registrations, this birth reg MIGHT be the right one:
WHALLEY, JANE mmn HEYES
GRO Reference: 1888 D Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 156
Esther Heyes married George Whalley in 1887 in Wigan district. I remember when I looked at the censuses earlier on I thought the Jane who was the child of George and Esther looked like the most likely person to be James Moss's wife. What was Jane's father's name on the 1908 marriage cert?
Oooh, for a second I thought that was wrong (that Jane might be the dau of George and Esther Whalley) as that Jane appears to be still single and living with her parents, according to the 1911 census transcript on Ancestry.
However, when I look at the image I see George Whalley has gone to town when filling in his 1911 census form! He has included info on all his children including the two who did not survived until 1911 and also stated that his daughter Jane has been married three years with one living child (In fact Jane had two living children, so maybe George forgot one!), but has listed her as Jane Whalley rather than Jane Moss - presumably she was actually in her husband's house on census night as George has written Jane's address in the occupation column (29 Higher Lane, Upholland) which is where she is listed with James Moss. What a pity George didn't decide to include everyone's dates of birth on the census too!!
Yes all that's correct , my mum was born in school lane Upholland . I've just been searching for James Leicester who was born in St Helens I found a James Licester on St Helens online parish clerk st Helens church with parents John Licester &Mary born 1815 . Now I have a relative on My fathers side George Leicester who was baptised at the same church but named George Leicester parents john Leicester &Mary , I'm wondering if they are related and the name has been misspelled as the name Licester looks an unusual one . It may be a common thing I don't know . I'll check the other church records in St. Helens to see if it comes up with anything else . Thanks
Jane was the daughter of Esther and George Whalley . My mums grandparents .
Yes all that's correct , my mum was born in school lane Upholland . I've just been searching for James Leicester who was born in St Helens I found a James Licester on St Helens online parish clerk st Helens church with parents John Licester &Mary born 1815 . Now I have a relative on My fathers side George Leicester who was baptised at the same church but named George Leicester parents john Leicester &Mary , I'm wondering if they are related and the name has been misspelled as the name Licester looks an unusual one . It may be a common thing I don't know . I'll check the other church records in St. Helens to see if it comes up with anything else . Thanks
Names were generally spelled the way they sounded until the mid-1800s (and often after that too!), so Lester, Leicester, Licester, Leister and Lister (which we might now think of as a different name altogether) etc might easily be found relating to the same individual.
EDIT In any case, the spelling is Leicester on the parish register image for the James Leicester, bap 19 Feb 1815. Their abode is Windle.
EDIT again! There is a burial at St Helens for a James Leicester aged 11 months 17 Feb 1816 who might well be the son of John and Mary.
Regarding your James Leicester, before rushing back to look for his baptism you should be looking for his marriage in case it took place after 1837 and could provide you with his father's details. I looked at the birth registrations for his children listed on the 1871 census (Rachel and Jane) and their mother's maiden name was Lucas.
This looks like the marriage:
2 Jun 1839 Haigh Lancashire
James Leicester, full age, bachelor, collier, residence Haigh, father James Leicester dec'd
Mary Lucas, full age, spinster, (unsure of occ) residence Haigh, father John Lucas dec'd
Witnesses William Cartwright, James Cartwright.
Everyone made their mark.
So, James says his father was James not John. Looking at the census records 1851-81 and James's death in 1890, his age given suggests a birth date between about 1816 and 1820. Also, in 1851 and 1871 James says he was born in St Helens, but in 1861 he says Orrell and in 1881 he says Pemberton.
I do wonder if this is actually his baptism? Would require further investigation (the abode says Pemberton):
James Leicester bap 12 Jan 1817 Wigan parents James Leicester, Elizabeth Leicester
Hi , yes I agree with the different spellings of names , as George Leicester and is wife become Lester . So I think they did write the names as spoken . Yes there's another difficulty finding out if janes was born in Pemberton orrell or St. Helens . . I found the James Leicester in Haigh which is a few miles from Wigan . Now to establish were he was born , thank you ?? ????
kiterunner
04-02-18, 15:36
Not sure whether you have seen all these census entries for the Leicesters yet, Qwackers?
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1841%2f0522%2f0730&parentid=gbc%2f1841%2f0010982403&highlights=%22%22
1841 - Hardmans Buildings, Pemberton
James Leasitor 25 Coal Miner Y
Mary Do 20 Y
Ann Do 5 Y
Elizebeth Do 1 Y
-
William Cartwright 20 Coal Miner Y.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC/1851/4298992/00984&parentid=GBC/1851/0001660233
1851 - Fleet Street, Pemberton
James Leicester Head Mar 33 Collier Lancaster St Helens
Mary Do Wife Mar 33 Do Pemberton
Children: Ann 16, Elizabeth 11, James 6, Margaret 1, all born Pemberton.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbc%2f1861%2f2783%2f00441a&parentid=gbc%2f1861%2f0014742176&highlights=%22%22
1861 - North Row, Orrell
James Leister Head Mar 44 Coal Miner Lanc Orrell
Mary Do Wife Mar 44 " "
Children: James 16, Margaret 11, Rachel 8, Jane 2, all born Orrell.
William Cartwright was a witness at their wedding and with them in 1841, so could be related to one or other of them.
kiterunner
04-02-18, 15:45
Ann Lucas was born 3 Feb 1836 and baptised 21 Aug 1836 at St John the Divine, Pemberton, illegitimate daughter of Mary Lucas, spinster. (From Lancashire OPC transcription.)
William Cartwright born 16 Dec 1819, baptised All Saints, Wigan, 2 Jan 1820, son of Peter and Amy Cartwright, abode Orrell, father's occupation miner. And he had an older brother James baptised 26 Jun 1815.
Peter Cartwright was buried 18 Jul 1827 Upholland, age 35, abode Pemberton, and Amy Cartwright was buried 27 Feb 1831 same place, age 38, so I don't think William and James Cartwright were stepbrothers or half-brothers of either James Leicester or Mary Lucas, but maybe cousins (or of course maybe not related!).
kiterunner
04-02-18, 16:25
I do wonder if this is actually his baptism? Would require further investigation (the abode says Pemberton):
James Leicester bap 12 Jan 1817 Wigan parents James Leicester, Elizabeth Leicester
This is the BT image on ancestry:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2575/4006205_00668/13554182?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlancashireparishbirths%26so%3 d2%26pcat%3d34%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dja* s%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dle*st*r%26gsln_x%3d1%26msb dy%3d1817%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26msfng%3dja*s %26msfng_x%3d1%26gskw%3dlanc*%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt% 3d1%26cp%3d11%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV%3d1%26uidh%3dvm5&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
No occupation shown for the father, although it is filled in for the other entries on the page.
Thanks I have only just seen your post. Been busy it's interesting , that the James seems to have been born in different places , St Helens Is further away from Pemberton than orrell which is close by . It about 8 miles away . There was a lot of coal mining in all of these areas . How can we find out which is the correct place of birth ? As there are a lot of Leicesters in St. Helens also . There was a little row of cottages in fleet st , where perhaps James Lived , they were demolished in the 1960s .do you think that all these James are the same person ? I suppose, it's possible that if they could not write someone would do it for them and assume where they were born . It's very complicated . I did find a James Leicester born in st Helens around 1815. Could it be him ? Thanks
It is extremely common for people to declare different places of birth on various records over the years. In this case, you have a father's name given on James' marriage cert and the info that his father was dec'd. I have looked for burials that might fit James senr but with no luck at the moment. Also, I've not found any likely siblings for the James b abt 1817. This could be the marriage of his parents (I'm not saying any of this is correct for your tree, it's just stuff you need to evaluate to determine the likelihood of it being correct):
Marriage: 15 Apr 1816 St Mary The Virgin, Prescot, Lancashire, England
James Leicester - (X), Widow [sic], this Parish
Betty Parr - (X), Widow, Wigan
Witness: Thomas Burrows, (X); Mary Finch, (X)
Married by Banns by: C. G. T. Driffield, Vicar
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1830, Page 52, Entry 154
Source: LDS Film 1657584
There are numerous marriages for a Mr Parr to a Betty or Elizabeth in or around Wigan in the previous few years, so it might be difficult to work out Betty's birth surname.
EDIT There is this burial if James senr was an older father:
Burial: 23 Jan 1837 St Mary (now St Helen), St Helens, Lancashire, England
James Laceter -
Age: 80
Abode: Orrel
Buried by: W. Bawdwen
Register: Burials 1836 - 1845 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page [21], Entry 167
Source: LDS Film 1469036
Thanks , will look into the info
I think I should try and get James mosses birth certificate . In 1887 , but I prefer to get it from with volume and page number as shown on Free Bmd it's more expensive if you don't have page number volume etc . The only problem when searching free bmd .is there are three James moss and it doesn't mention maiden name of mother . So can I trace the right one if there is a easy way let me know then I will order it . Thanks
Hi , I metioned a earlier marriage in 1868 of James moss to a Jane Ainscough in Pemberton , could this be his first marriage , as he was a widower when he got married to Margeret Leicester ? In 1870 ?
I have searched the parish records at Pemberton , in 1868. And found the birth of James Moss to James and Jane Moss . . Could this be James mother from first marriage , and subsequently the other children from the second marriage . She could have died giving birth , ill see if I can find a death record
I think I should try and get James mosses birth certificate . In 1887 , but I prefer to get it from with volume and page number as shown on Free Bmd it's more expensive if you don't have page number volume etc . The only problem when searching free bmd .is there are three James moss and it doesn't mention maiden name of mother . So can I trace the right one if there is a easy way let me know then I will order it . Thanks
See post #35 for James's birth reg. The mmn details are from the GRO website:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/#0
Hi , I metioned a earlier marriage in 1868 of James moss to a Jane Ainscough in Pemberton , could this be his first marriage , as he was a widower when he got married to Margeret Leicester ? In 1870 ?
Two reasons why the above is not correct:
Firstly, James Moss and his wife, Jane Ainscough have been identified on the 1871 census (post '36) and they are a separate family to yours as Kate has posted a link to your James etc in 1871 in post #45.
Secondly, James who married Margaret Leicester was not a widower when he married Margaret. The marriage cert, dated 24 Apr 1870, states James was a bachelor. The transcription of this certificate is in post #25 of this thread.
I have searched the parish records at Pemberton , in 1868. And found the birth of James Moss to James and Jane Moss . . Could this be James mother from first marriage , and subsequently the other children from the second marriage . She could have died giving birth , ill see if I can find a death record
I have re-read the above several times, but don't know what you mean. Jame's mother was Margaret. Maybe I can ignore this post if its to do with Jane Ainscough?
I did look at the PRs for Pemberton and in 1868 I could only see two James Pemberton baptisms - one was illegitimate with mother's name Mary and the other was the son of Thomas and Jane, not James and Jane. So I'm not sure what baptism you are referring to.
Hi , yes James moss married Margere Leicester , but he was a widower has on his marriage certificate , so his first wife wife had died . She I believe was Jane Ainscough age 18 of Pemberton Do you understand now ?
But he wasn't a widower. Were did you see the 1870 marriage cert?
On the 1871 census there are two couples. James and Margaret (Leicester) and James and Jane (Ainscough). Jane is not dead at that date! She lived until at least 1876.
I found the marriage on the St. John's parish clerk . Which is the local church .
Do you mean online? Can you post a link please?
The marriage I'm looking at (the one posted #25) took place at St Thomas, Wigan, not St John's.
I've just looked at Lancs OPC for St John's Pemberton (assuming that's the St John's you meant) but can't see what you have seen.
So I believe that James moss married Jane Ainscough age 18 and she died as he is a widower when he married Margeret leicester. If he didn't marry her , who did he marry previously ?
There is a marriage of James moss to Jane Ainscough 1868 on the parish clerks st John's Pemberton
I'm sorry don't know how to do links ,but you can see the entry on the above as I have said .
So I believe that James moss married Jane Ainscough age 18 and she died as he is a widower when he married Margeret leicester. If he didn't marry her , who did he marry previously ?
He was not a widower when he married Margaret Leicester, he was a bachelor. He didn't marry anyone previously.
Jane Ainscough married a different James Moss and both couples appear separately on the 1871 census - all four people alive at the same time with their own children registered appropriately with correct mother's maiden names. Jane Moss nee Ainscough died in 1878 and her James Moss went on to remarry to an Elizabeth who he is with on at least the following two censuses. Your James is with his Margaret all this time.
I have now found what you are looking at for the marriage on Lancs OPC but at St Thomas's Wigan not St John's Pemberton:
Marriage: 24 Apr 1870 St Thomas, Wigan, Lancashire, England
James Moss - 27, Collier, Widower, Clayton St.
Margaret Leicester - (X), 21, Spinster, Miry Lane
Groom's Father: James Moss, deceased
Bride's Father: James Leicester, Fireman
Witness: James Leicester; Elizabeth Leicester, (X)
Married by Banns by: Thomas James, Curate
Register: Marriages 1870 - 1878, Page 1, Entry 2
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives
This TRANSCRIPTON says Widower, but I'm looking at the PR IMAGE on Ancestry and that says Bachelor. Kate was also looking at the image when she transcribed bachelor earlier in this thread - (post #25)
So, as you see, this is why transcriptions cannot always be relied upon.
Hi , yes you have seen the marriage of Margeret leicester and James Moss at st Thomas Haigh , which was in 1870 , it states for James widower . So he was previously married .
So , we are now saying that this James moss in Haigh isn't the right one , and he isn't a widower ?
I haven't looked at the census's yet but I would take the marriage certificate as read before the census's , has we have been having problem establishing if James Leicester was born in Pemberton , Orrell Or St. Helens .
Hi , yes you have seen the marriage of Margeret leicester and James Moss at st Thomas Haigh , which was in 1870 , it states for James widower . So he was previously married .
No, he was a bachelor, the transcription is incorrect.
So , we are now saying that this James moss in Haigh isn't the right one , and he isn't a widower ?
No, it's the right marriage and he wasn't a widower.
I will post part of the image later, but I don't have time to do it now.
I haven't looked at the census's yet but I would take the marriage certificate as read before the census's , has we have been having problem establishing if James Leicester was born in Pemberton , Orrell Or St. Helens .
I haven't taken the censuses at face value. There were children with mmn Leicester being born at the same time as those with mmn Ainscough and all appear on the censuses correctly with two sets of parents.
I'm sorry, but I have to stop this now and get on with my day!
Hi yes I even busy day ahead too
Hi , I've a spare hour today I will look at the census's to see if there is a better clue have a good weekend
Here is the marriage cert for James Moss and Margaret Leicester:
https://p7p7pg-db3pap001.files.1drv.com/y4m4OVhKfzxJU1ajHkkS2ustw7Mf5Lchiwy22qE9NHJpw7LPLQ W28ef5IjQDVH_jnUh8g3U2JXzjK9ll4S1ukoIlvw0Ga2sQdeZv 701rbBAK-ckUC4z3oRuGLXHAPP4NEC_Th32Yl1MjcDK5nl_k7QahqtvrLUR DN3hiMElZNCtR4jCdZpcLrX_rsYniQ1hAPqRqfkDg34f-S8pYv7dBItSVA?width=1024&height=336&cropmode=none
Hi , thanks did some research at the library and came up with the same copy . So you can't trust anything you see . Thanks
I have just noticed that the names of the curate are not the same on the marriage certificate and the transcribed church record . Strange
I hadn't noticed that, though I did attempt to check whether the records had come from different copies of the certificate and had initially come to the conclusion that they hadn't.
Ancestry says of the source for the images including the one I posted, (which I assume is identical to the one at the library that you saw): Wigan Anglican Parish Registers. Wigan Archives Services, Wigan, England.
The source on the Lancs OPC transcription says: Source: Original register at Wigan Archives, which I took to be the same thing.
Hi , yes . So that marriage certificate is the correct one as the church record isn't that accurate. I will try and inform the archivist at Wigan . As there is an anomaly in the record . Do you have any idea If James Leicester could have been a sibling of George Leicester who was born in St Helens in 1817 it appears the parents have the same names : john and Mary . It may be a shot in the dark as we still have to establish where James was born as there as been conflicting census's with different birth places . Thanks
Olde Crone
11-02-18, 07:56
As the handwriting is the same throughout Merry's copy I would suggest that it was from the BT rather than the church register which should have had signatures on it. I have found many errors on BTs in Lancashire!
OC
Hi Olde Crone the transcript is from the church record . In Wigan usually I have found them quite accurate . But obviously not on this occasion , although James moss could have stated he was single at the time And could also have been a widower whether they would have known or not without his confirmation of that .
Sadly St Thomas 's church in Wigan is no longer there it was demolished to make a ring road , was looking for it for a while and wondering why I couldn't find its location . it was in Caroline st Wigan . Quite close to where the couple lived .
Hi , I am going to Order James moss 's birth certificate. Hoping that this is him - : 1887 8c 137 oct Nov Dec It takes about five days .
Hi , yes . So that marriage certificate is the correct one as the church record isn't that accurate. I will try and inform the archivist at Wigan . As there is an anomaly in the record . Do you have any idea If James Leicester could have been a sibling of George Leicester who was born in St Helens in 1817 it appears the parents have the same names : john and Mary . It may be a shot in the dark as we still have to establish where James was born as there as been conflicting census's with different birth places . Thanks
No probably not, because baby James probably died aged about one year. You will have to look back through this thread to find where I said that already, because did enough of that yesterday. :D
As the handwriting is the same throughout Merry's copy I would suggest that it was from the BT rather than the church register which should have had signatures on it. I have found many errors on BTs in Lancashire!
OC
That's what I thought OC, but the preceding marriage in the register (the preceding entry is entry number one in the register!) and all the following ones have variable handwriting for the sigs.
Hi , I am going to Order James moss 's birth certificate. Hoping that this is him - : 1887 8c 137 oct Nov Dec It takes about five days .
We know it is because the mmn is correct:
MOSS, JAMES mmn LEICESTER
GRO Reference: 1887 D Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 137
I've been investigating James Moss who married Margaret Leicester in 1870, before his marriage, in part to show that he isn't the same person who married Jane Ainscough, and also to demonstrate who his parents are.
This is the birth reg for James Moss who married Jane Ainscough in 1868:
MOSS, JAMES mmn PARKINSON
GRO Reference: 1848 M Quarter in WIGAN UNION Volume 21 Page 800
Parents were James Moss and Ellen Parkinson who married in 1845. Ellen was widowed between 1851 and 1861. James is living with both his parents in 1851, with Ellen in 1861 and in 1871 he is living with Jane and their dau Isabella (mmn Ainscough on birth reg) at 9 Lock Street, Orrell. James is aged 23, b Orrell.
Also in 1871, your James Moss is living with his wife Margaret and son William (mmn Leicester on birth reg) at North Row, Orrell. He is aged 27 b Pemberton.
Having eliminated a few other James Moss' birth registrations because their fathers were not called James, I think your James was actually born in 1841.
I think he is the one b 6 Aug 1841 and bap 15 Dec 1841 at Pemberton, parents James Moss and Jane nee Bradshaw who married in 1830. I think this is his birth registration:
MOSS James mmn BRADSHAW
Wigan & Leigh
Volume: 21
Page: 782
He is with his parents in 1851, but not with his widowed mother in 1861.
Back in post #23 Kate found James and Margaret on the 1901 census. In it she transcribed James's occupation as retired soldier, though we had nothing to suggest he had been in the army.
1901 Census:
16 off White St, Pemberton
James Moss Head M 59 Retired Soldier General Labourer Lancs Pemberton
Margaret Do Wife M 52 Colliery Surface Labourer Do Do
Margaret A Do Daur S 16 Cotton Spinner Do Do
James Do Son S 13 Labourer in Coal Mine Do Do
Richard Wright Boarder S 39 Coal Miner (Hewer) Do Do.
I think this is your James in 1861 - a private in the army in the infantry barracks at Salford. He is aged 19 b Pemberton.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...nSearchResults
I then found James in the Chelsea Pensioners' deferred pensions 1838-1896 on FMP. Here's some bits I transcribed from his record:
Page 1
Discharged 10 Mar 1870
Private James Moss army number 959
Served abroad 4 years and 5 months
Malta 1 yr 11 mths
Jamaica 2 yrs 6 mths
Character and conduct
Conduct good
One good conduct badge no medals
His name appears 14 times in the regimental defaulters book including three trials by courts martial.
Never wounded.
Page 2
List of service and pay May 1860-March 1870 (84th Regiment)
Page 3 is crossed through because it is regarding discharge due to injury or disability.
Page 4
Personal details page:
Trade collier
b Pemberton near Wigan
Attested for the 84 Regiment at Warrington 30 May 1860 aged 18 years
Discharged at Chatham March 1870 aged 27 years 10 months
Height 5'6"
Complexion Sallow
Eyes Grey
Hair Light Brown
Trade Collier
Marks or Scars none
Intended place of residence Pemberton
Page 5
Original enlistment document. Doesn't add anything to what I've already typed except to specify he was single aged 18 at enlistment.
Page 6
Attestation of Recruit
Doesn't add anything except to show he signed up for ten years.
Page 7
Says he enlisted in the reserves in Jan 1860 and was released from that 29 May 1860 on condition he sign up for the regulars.
Page 8
Another list of service dates and pay.
Page 9
Cover document
Attested for the 84 Regiment at Warrington 30 May 1860 aged 18 years
Discharged at Chatham March 1870 aged 27 years 10 months
18 years in May 1860 is correct (born Aug 1841) so he was actually about 28½ when he was discharged and 29½ at the 1871 census. Seeing this 27 makes me feel more confident he is the same man who declared his age as 27 a few weeks later at the marriage to Margaret Leicester and of course, said he was a retired soldier in 1901!
Wow you have done a lot of work ! The only thing which made me think on a different line about which James was which , was when I told my sister who is a lot older than me about the Leicester , she said she had never heard the name Leicester . Now I know she remembers the name Parkinson , as my mum had what we knew as a friend named Eva Parkinson , but could have been a cousin as I was only small but I remember the name . That's why , I was a little unsure that Margeret Leicester was a relative .Lock st is loch st I know it well it is in Pemberton .and that's why I saw Jane Ainscough as a possibility ? As she was a Pemberton lass like James . James was living in Clayton st in Wigan when he got married it was a poor area of the town which was another puzzler for me why not live with his parents in Pemberton .or relatives . I have tried to piece this kind of info together . And perhaps I have got the wrong end of the stick . It's a gut instinct that makes believe that the leicesters are not my ancestors .
Well, the James Moss who married Jane Ainscough in 1868 and Elizabeth Brownlow in 1879 and was the son of James Moss and Ellen Parkinson didn't have a son called James b about 1887, so I think you might have to accept he is not your ancestor!
Also, Jane Ainscough was dead years before James Moss b 1887 was born. From memory she died in 1878.
James Moss (b 1841) died in Warrington:
Deaths Mar 1907
MOSS James 64 Warrington 8c 111
Burial (111th anniversary today!)
13 Feb 1907 St John the Devine, Pemberton, James Moss, Bounty (?) asylum, Winwick, Warrington, aged 64 years
I'm not sure what happened to Margaret at the moment.
Olde Crone
13-02-18, 21:48
County, not Bounty!
OC
Hi Merry , I also was wondering if we also made Sure that the other mother maiden name breakell wasn't James's Mother . Has she had a James moss in pemberton in 1887 Have we definitely ruled her out from being a potential mother of James ? Thanks
Well you can do the same as Kate did for James, mother Margaret Leicester (see posts #22, #23, #25 and #35) - Look for the potential James on the census, look at the names of his siblings, look up their birth registrations to confirm they also have the same mmn to be sure the James on the census is the correct one. Then confirm the parents marriage.
If you do that for James Moss mmn Breakell you would discover his father's name was Thomas! We know your James had father James dec'd from his 1908 marriage cert. Here is the marriage of the parents of the other James:
Marriages Sep 1881
BREAKELL Elizabeth Wigan 8c 145
MOSS Thomas Wigan 8c 145
Also, that James was still single and living with his parents in 1911.
Thanks got you . Your always spot on lol thankdps ????
Hi , Merry , have we any idea of James moss's military service ? . I know he was in the army in the First World War , and came home shell shocked and never seem to recover until is death . I would like to find out his military service it would be nice maybe to obtain his service records . How do I go about checking you are a whizz at all these things ? Thanks
I can't see an obvious service record for him on FMP or Ancestry. It's very possible it has not survived as over 50% were destroyed during WW2.
If he'd had children born during his war service you might find his regiment details on the child's birth cert, but it looks like he had children registered Q2 1914 (too soon, unless he was a regular) and Q2 1919 which may be too late, though some were still serving for a few months after the war ended.
Have you checked that no one in the family has kept anything to do with his war service? Cap badges often seem to end up in a drawer, but of course it's not always straightforward knowing who they belonged to! If we knew which regiment he was in or, better still, his army number, it's possible we could find out more.
Sorry merry we do not have anything belonging to him which is a shame . I do know when he came home he was in a military hospital and never worked again due to ill health . That's it that's all I know thanks
Are you in touch with all his descendants?
Sorry no . Is last son has got dementia and is in a nursing home I tried to ask him quite a few things last year but didn't get any answers so it sad I don't know anyone to ask . Thanks
The Jane moss age 89 is the correct one , I remember roughly how old my daughter was when grandma died and she was nearly ninety so that is her . That's great I've been trying to find her plot number in st Thomas the martyr Upholland the church want me to pay £40 to find the grave which is terrible . As she as no grave stone . Is their any way I can find this out myself ? Thanks
Sorry no . Is last son has got dementia and is in a nursing home I tried to ask him quite a few things last year but didn't get any answers so it sad I don't know anyone to ask . Thanks
What about younger relations? Descendants of his children?
The Jane moss age 89 is the correct one , I remember roughly how old my daughter was when grandma died and she was nearly ninety so that is her . That's great I've been trying to find her plot number in st Thomas the martyr Upholland the church want me to pay £40 to find the grave which is terrible . As she as no grave stone . Is their any way I can find this out myself ? Thanks
I can't think of any other way. Sorry. If the grave was marked then there are sites that have gravestone transcriptions, but generally only the church would have records of the unmarked graves.
Thanks. I will try and locate the copy of the graveyard . As I had this problem trying to trace my grandfathers grave and eventually got a copy , and a kind lady at the church helped me to find it . So I will see who holds the records thanks
hi , i'm having problems with family search ,i'm trying to look at 1851 census to see if james moss post 23 born pemberton 1842 is on any . it is coming up with no moss without first name . Also on lancs Bmd . there are a few births around that time with different parents . i've also looked on st. john's pemberton online parish clerk and there are a couple with the same name . how do i determine who was who and the right parent ? Can you help please . I may have to get a subscription to ancestry . lol thanks
hi ,i tried to search census , 1851 by putting pemberton in for birth place it came up with nothing i took it out and it came up with james's straight away ,it's not a good search engine as it says births pemberton .
kiterunner
10-03-21, 14:11
So is there something you still need help with, or have you sorted it out for yourself?
him,Yes was wanting tim double check for the parents of James moss Born 1842 . pemberton ? i don't want to follow the wrong people . If you can double check for me when you have time . thanks Chrissie
I haven't read back, but do you have his marriage cert?
kiterunner
10-03-21, 16:33
This is James's marriage cert and his father was also James:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60562/images/41177_334262-00132?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&pId=341672
kiterunner
10-03-21, 16:47
In post #98 you (Merry) said He is with his parents in 1851 but no link. Also that he was born in 1841.
So this is the 1851 census:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8860/images/LANHO107_2200_2200-0947?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=dNx85712&_phstart=successSource&pId=13194198
(starts at the bottom of the page and continues onto the next one)
Ormskirk Road, Pemberton
James Moss Head Mar 42 Stone Mason Lancaster Pemberton
Jane Do Wife Mar 38 Hand Loom Weaver Lancaster Pemberton
Ellen Do Daur U 16 Do Do Do Do
Ann Moss Daur 14 Hand Loom Weaver Lancaster Pemberton
James Do Son 9 Do Do
Jane Do Daur 6 Do Do
Mary Do Daur 4 Do Do
William Do Son 2 Do Do
Rebekah Do Daur 7 months Do Do.
kiterunner
10-03-21, 16:53
And this should link to it on FamilySearch:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG5D-G4W
hi ,thanks for that , i think their marriage was in wigan .13th dec 1830 to jane bradshaw i found a birth In 1841 of james mmn Bradshaw . I will have to double check this as there is another birth of a james in pemberton i 1841 . thanks
kiterunner
10-03-21, 21:50
If you read back through this thread again, you will see we have been through all that already.
hi , Thanks your correct .
hi ,I am trying to trace back on the bradshaw side , I found a ellen bradshaw 21stmay 1814. 3 daughter to william and betty Bradshaw.abode Orrell which is amile from pemberton . have you any ideas ? thanks chrissie
Any ideas about what?
Is Ellen Bradshaw someone in your tree? Did she marry and have children? I did a quick search on your threads here but didn't turn up anyone of this name. Is she a sibling of Jane Bradshaw perhaps?
i'm sorry merry it is jane bradshaw. wife of james moss ,born around1813/14 i've been minding our grandson and haven't hardly slept last night .my minds fuddled this morning ?
Baptism: 26 Sep 1813 St Thomas, Upholland, Lancashire, England
Jane Bradshaw - Daughter of Richard Bradshaw & Jane
Abode: Orrell
Occupation: Collier
Baptised by: Revd. Jno. Bird A.B. Curate
Register: Baptism 1813 - 1825, Page 18, Entry 143
Source: LDS Film 1657546
Jane Moss said b Orrell on the 1861 census.
Hi have been searching for a marriage between richard and jane . have had a look at upholland . there are two a Phylis culshaw 1808 catherine whittle 1801, marriage billinge which isn't far from orrell or upholland ellen huyton 1801 ellen stopforth wigan all saints 1807 . have you any ideas ? thanks
also there is a marriage to jane barton in aughton near ormskirk 1812 .
I would usually look for siblings for Jane first as that might help with establishing a time frame for the marriage. Also, bit of a jump from corn dealer to collier!
will try to look for janes siblings if any like you said it may give a clue thanks
him,I have had a look on family search in upholland and found possible siblings for jane. unfortunately it only gives fathers name. they are :- Richard born 1802 Peter 1804 Margery 1806 John 1809 and ann 1810 there are lots of bradshaws on the parish clerks .
Hi found a richard Bradshaws marriage to a phillis culshaw in upholland 1808 it says he is a widower don't know if that could be him ?
Don't you need a marriage to a Jane?
I found perhaps a birth for richard Bradshaw in upholland 18782.father ralph .
hi ,yes we are trying to find there marriage , but i looked at the siblings in upholland as you suggested . but like i said it only gives fathers name not mothers . so can't glean much from that , i also thought to find is birth in upholland .
kiterunner
14-03-21, 15:56
The pre-1813 Upholland baptisms don't usually give mother's name, but there is some other information, such as on John's baptism 29 Jan 1809 - abode Upholland, labourer. On Jane's baptism in 1813 abode is Orrell and occupation collier.
Peter 25 Mar 1804 - Orrell, collier.
Ann 16 Dec 1810 - Orrell, collier.
do you think they are not the births of siblings like you found a different occupation and abode , ?
kiterunner
14-03-21, 18:53
I think the ones with the same abode and occupation are likely to be siblings or half-siblings and those where the abode and occupation don't match probably aren't.
yes i agree . i will keep searching , thanks
I found perhaps a birth for richard Bradshaw in upholland 18782.father ralph .
If that's supposed to say 1782, then I wondered if this is the same Ralph getting married?
Marriage: 18 Oct 1767 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Ralph Bradshaw - (X), Holland
Margery Charnock - (X), Holland
Witness: Gerd. Bancks; John Charnock
Married by Banns by: Thos. Edge
Register: Marriages 1754 - 1775, Page 270
Source: LDS Film 1885674
It would make sense that Richard called one of his daughters Margery if that was hs mother's name.
hi ,yes it makes sense , that could be his farther of holland is upholland , as my mum was born there and she used to say holland .
Hi ,i think ralph could be Richards father , how do i double check to make sure ? what do you suggest ? I agree about the name Margery . ?
You know a Ralph was the father of a Richard, but you don't know for sure they are 'your' Ralph and Richard.
You could look to see if this Richard died young, as if he did he's not yours.
You could look harder for a marriage to Jane and see if that gives any clues.
You could look to see if any of these people left a will.
The names Peter, Ralph and Margery are perhaps less common than the other names (though Ralph is not so uncommon in Lancs), so you could see where else hey occur in case that gives clues.
You could make a spreadsheet of all the Bradshaws in the area and work them into families to see what pans out from that.
kiterunner
15-03-21, 11:16
I just had the idea of searching on Lancs OPC for marriages of people giving the name of Richard Bradshaw as their father, and found this:
Marriage: 4 Apr 1841 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Thomas Gornar - (X), 33, Engineer, Widower, Orrell
Margery Bradshaw - (X), 35, Weaver, Spinster, Orrell
Groom's Father: John Gornar, Labourer
Bride's Father: Richard Bradshaw, Miner
Witness: James Hays; Ann Fyldes, (X)
Married by Banns by: Charles Bisset Curate
Register: Marriages 1840 - 1842, Page 80, Entry 159
Source: LDS Film 1885694
Also this one:
Marriage: 12 Oct 1845 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
John Tinsley - (X), 28, Collier, Bachelor, Wigan
Ann Cunliffe - (X), 35, Weaver, Widow, Pemberton
Groom's Father: Abel Tinsley, Weaver
Bride's Father: Richard Bradshaw, dead
Witness: Thomas Moss; Ann Ascroft, (X)
Married by Banns by: John T.Pigot Curate
Register: Marriages 1845 - 46, Page 48, Entry 95
Source: LDS Film 1885695
So it looks as though Margery was indeed a daughter of your Richard, also that your Richard was dead by 1845.
hi I looked at the 1841 census to see if i could find Ann as cunliffe. i think this is her with children .Children james 7 william 5 richard 3 ellen 0 and a peter berry 11. no father i thought i saw a marriage of bradshaw and Berryn in wigan in 1830 ,she may have been married before ? do you agree ?
ann married james cunliffe in 1834 in wigan . if she's been married twice before the tinsley marriage she's been unlucky .
To confirm that, you could have looked at the 1851 census where Peter Berry and the Cunliffe children are all listed as step children of John Tinsley. Then to confirm this is definitely still Ann who started off as Bradshaw, check the birth regs of the Tinsley children. Here's one of those:
TINSLEY, ELIJAH mmn BRADSHAW
GRO Reference: 1850 J Quarter in WIGAN UNION Volume 21 Page 952
thanks merry , will check out the births
hi ,i've found potential children in pemberton to ann and john tinsley Henry 1848. and mary ann 1852 .
Hi , i looked at the 1851 census and couldn't see elijah and henry. perhaps they died .
kiterunner
16-03-21, 11:26
This is them in 1851:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG5D-K1V
yes that's good , I don't know if it's my ipad or family search that's the problem i've looked at the 1861 1871 census for them but it comes up with no results ,even when i take a first name out and place of birth left blank . unless it's something i'm doing wrong .? as i thought i'd check them .
kiterunner
16-03-21, 13:11
You may find this hard to believe, but Ann has yet another new husband by 1861!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MWMQ-NCH
Their transcription is not very good. This is my version:
Peter Heyes Head Mar 56 Waver(? maybe supposed to be weaver?) Lancs Orrell
Ann Do Wife Mar 51 Do Do
Ellen Cunliff Step Daur Un 21 Cotton Spinner Do Do
John Tindsley Do Son 15 Coal Miner Do Do
Elijah Do Do Son 12 Do Do
(Elijah was originally written down as Elizabeth, stepdaur, and corrected to Elijah, stepson.)
kiterunner
16-03-21, 13:16
Elijah Tinsley died Jan-Mar 1869, Wigan, age 19.
wow , she certainly had a varied life lol thanks so much . so i wouldn't have found her if you hadn't seen this . what did she do to them all lol ????
poor elijah , died young , it's so sad when i see all the burials of young ones and babies and children . Even if it was a common thing it must have been heartbreaking .
i found anna marriage 1859 to peter at wigan register office . maybe she needed someone to look after her
hi , on post 58 , you found a birth of james leicester 12jan 1817 wigan , you said iit would be worth investigating , as james says he was born st. helens on one census and the following one pemberton . how can i find out for definite ? thanks
kiterunner
20-03-21, 15:22
Just to refresh our memories!
From searching back through the thread for Leicesters,
post #42 has 1871 census - James Leicester age 54 born St Helens
post #54 has James Leicester's marriage to Mary Lucas 1839 Haigh
post #56 has 1841 census - James Leasitor age 25
1851 census - James Leicester age 33 born St Helens
1861 census - James Leister age 44 born Orrell
also says "William Cartwright was a witness at their wedding and with them in 1841, so could be related to one or other of them. "
post #57 has some info about William Cartwright
post #60 possible marriage of the parents of the James baptised 1817.
You would want to see what else you can find out about the family of the James baptised 1817 to see if you can rule him out or if there is anything to prove he is the right one. Maybe build up a family tree for him to see what you find.
hi , I checked out william Cartwright , and found a tree , he married a elizabeth Lucas , her father being john lucas and elizabeth , perhaps ,mary lucas's family .What do you think . ? i will check it out more to see what i can discover ?
perhaps mary lucas and elizabeth were sisters . it would make william mary's brother in law if i've got it right . let me know your thoughts . ? may be that's why he was a witness and staying with the family on the census .
perhaps mary lucas and elizabeth were sisters .
So you need to check out their ages and birthplaces on the censuses and then look for baptisms to see if they have the same parents.
What a gorgeous Cat , lovely colour , I am checking The parish records in Wigan . hiefully will try and connect them . thanks
hi Have checked the parish records and found mary 7th april 1816 , number one daughter Born 26 th of Feb pemberton to John and elizabeth . then i found Elizabeth 27june 1821 , third daughter of john and elizabeth Pemberton . So there must be another daughter . .
Yes, there is. If you do the search on Lancs OPC you will see.
thanks , how old is the cat , i'd love one like him/her .?
Hi ,I found ann 2nd daughter of John And elizabeth pemberton 1819 born 30th May . think that makes the three Girls
hi i will have to look for the marriage of william cartwright to see what i can come up with ,i've looked on Family. it isn't coming up with anything .
kiterunner
21-03-21, 09:58
It's on Lancs OPC. (Link to site below, then you will need to search.)
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
thanks , how old is the cat , i'd love one like him/her .?
She's about 9 years old. We've had her 3+ years and she was a rescue from Cats Protection. She had already been rehomed on two previous occasions before we got her. She's called Tabitha which was the name she arrived with. She is definitely in charge of everything that happens in this house!
Love the name and she looks adorable , and Contented . I ve had another look at william cartwright tree . i'm wondering now if is wife was ann lucas , one of the sisters as he is with her on the 1871 census , and her age is 50 , which would nearly fit , the only thing that throws me is her birthplace it says sherrington , but it could be shevington which is part of wigan . i'll keep looking .
i found william cartwright and elizabeth lucas 's marriage 15 th Feb , 1846 wigan all saints . Both pemberton abode , Williams father peter dead and elizabeth's father john dead . so this could be them . Perhaps she reverted to a middle name of ann on the 1871 . but i'll check the other census 's prior
I looked at the 1861 ,census for william , his wife's name ann , it says she was born in Shevington which is about 2 and half miles from pemberton , with children peter 20, james 15 ,sam 11 john 2 and according to the tree there's another girl mary . what are your thoughts . ? thanks
Ann is William's wife in 1861 and 1871. She is older than Elizabeth and born in a different place, so William may have remarried. You need to examine the GRO birth indexes to see what the mmn is for each child as well as the marriage records for another marriage. I note there are children in the house older than William's first marriage!
There's a marriage of widower William Cartwright (father Peter) to Ann Twiner or Turner in 1854, so any children born after that should have Ann's surname as the mmn.
Elizabeth was buried 28 Jan 1853 at Wigan All Saints aged 31.
yes your right i'll check for births for ann twined turner on lancs bmd thanks
i found the marriage on lancs bmd to a ann turner , so you have found that he was remarried in1854 . so the mystery is solved of the name . he didn't waste much time after elizabeth died .
i'll check to see if they had any children .
peter and james are definetly elizabeth and williams children as they are with them on the 1851.
I know what you mean as there is a James dickinson in the household. i can't see the where it states relationship Can you see that ?
kiterunner
21-03-21, 15:07
James Dickinson is down as lodger on the 1861 census.
i've looked on the 1881 census on family search william is there age 60'a provision dealer , in ince in makerfield . it doesn't show any other person
So we can probably discount james dickinson . .
hi all ,hope you all have had a wonderful christmas ??????I am trying to find a army record for James Moss born pemberton 1887 father james mother margeret. married to Jane whalley post 3 I do know that after he came out of the war he never worked again as he never quite recovered from the trauma . We thought we found his death age 45 . The name is common to find a military record any thoughts ? thanks
kiterunner
30-12-21, 09:31
Were any of his children born while he was in the army? If so then their birth certificate(s) might give some information about his army rank, regiment etc.
Olde Crone
30-12-21, 10:33
Was he definitely a career soldier? That was his father James, I think.
WW1 service records are scarce for lower ranks, istr 70% of them were destroyed but of course it's always worth a look.
OC
yes his father was a career soldier , i will check to see if any of james and janes children were born within the period of the war . There was a lot of anger with regard to james . I remember my mother saying that her mother jane didn't get a pension when james passed away as he didn't die under the colours . I don't. know if that was correct or not ? as there was lots of things said and at the time i didn't take any of it on board .
James and jane had a child elizabeth in 1914 don't know the date ,but as yet can't see any other child born during the war .
kiterunner
30-12-21, 12:44
Do you know where he lived during the war? There might possibly be an absent voters' list entry for him if he was still in the army towards the end of the war. Edit - FMP comes up with several entries for James Moss in Wigan in Britain, Absent Voters Lists 1918-1921 which could be worth a look if he was living there?
Olde Crone
30-12-21, 13:43
You only got a widow's war pension if your husband died in combat or as a result of war injuries after the war.
OC
Thanks Kite runner and OC . I didn't realise that was the case . i'll check the absent voters list on family search . but i've no idea where he was whether he was abroad or not . I actually don't know much about him only what i've said previously. i'm sad about that . my brother passed away a few years ago he may have had some ideas . but i've got nothing to go on only his birth and death . he died when he was 45 , not a long life .
kiterunner
30-12-21, 14:30
I don't know whether the Wigan absent voter lists are on FamilySearch, but they are on Findmypast.
James and jane had a child elizabeth in 1914 don't know the date ,but as yet can't see any other child born during the war .
You say you don't know the date of this entry, but clearly before WW1 started.
Births Jun 1914
MOSS Elizabeth Whalley Wigan 8c 265
kiterunner
30-12-21, 14:43
Also, do you know where his home address was during WW1? Ancestry is coming up with a James Moss born about 1888 living Upholland, army numbers 13013 Army Service Corps and T/386024 RASC, but most of the documents' images are on Fold3 which isn't included in a normal Ancestry sub.
There is a medal index card for the number T/386024 which shows enlistment date as 12 Oct 1914 and discharge date as 14 Dec 1918 (link below)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1262/images/30850_A001119-00804?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=19e4814e0a7707fb08297435acc1d5af&pId=341915
According to Findmypast, there is also a Silver War Badge roll entry, but I haven't managed to find that on Ancestry yet to look at it.
but i've got nothing to go on only his birth and death . he died when he was 45 , not a long life .
What about the birth certs of his children? If you knew where he lived you might find out more, from newspapers etc.
Where was he living when he died?
I looked at the absent voters lists for James Moss, Wigan. Most of the 9 matches were for men called Moss but with a different forename. The only one that was James Moss had the service number 212903. This is his Fold3 record.
Name: James Moss
Record Type: Card
Service Number: 81370, 212903, 82303
Corps, Regiment or Unit: Cheshire, Labour, R D C
Title: WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description: Other Ranks Survived
Reference Number: 3/Mm/13609, Z/Ches 11896
kiterunner
30-12-21, 14:45
Update - here is the Silver War Badge roll entry on Ancestry:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2456/images/wo329_3222-00174?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=b9d01cce97e8134bfc247fa339c2d8f2&pId=799573
Confirms the details from the medal index card and gives his rank as Driver. Cause of discharge given as sickness, and it says he did serve overseas. But of course we still don't know whether this is the right James Moss!
hi Kiterunner you are a gem , Yes he would have been living in upholland i think in school lane if that helps . My mum was born in upholland in 1911 so that could be him .
I will check the death records .
he died in orrell in 1932 age 45
I'm sorry to say i can't view the docs as i'm not a member on ancestry . but not to worry .
kiterunner
30-12-21, 15:51
Like I said, most of the documents are on Fold3, not Ancestry, so I can't access them either. Every so often, Fold3 have a free access weekend or similar, so you could wait for one of those.
I'll post the address from the absent voters list later. Just going out now. Don't think it was anywhere I'd seen before.
do you think the james moss on ancestry in upholland his him ? thanks
thank you for all your help x
kiterunner
30-12-21, 16:14
do you think the james moss on ancestry in upholland his him ? thanks
I don't think we have enough information yet to say.
kiterunner
30-12-21, 16:54
Oh, but having said that, I just remembered that it does show you a tiny version of the image on Fold3 for free. This is a link to a free search I did on there which brings up the records, or some of them (if you log into your Ancestry account it should work):
https://www.fold3.com/search?keywords=T/386024&full-name~=james+moss:%22james+moss%22&place=rel.62149:United+Kingdom&military.conflict=World+War+I
I clicked through to try to look at the first image and of course it says I would need a sub to Fold3, but behind that message I can see some of the document, and it says DEAD 1932, so it fits with the death you found, but I'm not sure whether you are certain that death is the right one?
kiterunner
30-12-21, 17:03
Also I can see it says "4 School Lane, Upholland". Does that mean anything to you? Edit - reading back through the thread, I see that it will! So this must be the right army record.
kiterunner
30-12-21, 17:09
I believe you can download the medal index card from the National Archives for free at the moment, though you will need to make a free account first:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4166360
Just passing through.
We couldn't find this before:
Name: Jane Moss
[Jane Atherton]
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Widow
Birth Date: 13 Oct 1892
Residence Date: 1939
Address: 4 Back School Lane
Residence Place: Upholland, Lancashire, England
Occupation: Farm Worker
Back at post #50 I had this death as the only remaining likely one, having eliminated two others:
Deaths Mar 1978
ATHERTON JANE 13OC1888 WIGAN 39 2811
So the year is out but the date is good otherwise.
I found that almost four years ago. Have you got the cert yet?
Thank you so much for your help i feel so happy as i said a lot of my relatives are a blank canvas to me . Of course i remember my nan jane ,but didn't see her that much . My sisters and brother will be happy too as they didn't know much like I. It's making up a puzzle with all the valuable pieces you have found . Back school lane fits with my mum and family That death is correct . My eldest daughter was nearly six at the time and i didn't want her to go to the funeral .so i can relate to the date . Once again thanks
Sorry I meant to also say that 684 ormskirk rd fits in also .
kiterunner
30-12-21, 18:00
I think that Ormskirk Road soldier was a different person, though.
I have Just contacted my eldest sister and she thinks the death date is correct .
I'm sorry I'm just over excited .that i've forgotten to check that . sorry , but the back school lane is good x I went onto the national archives to try and download but they seem to wanypt to charge me .
kiterunner
30-12-21, 18:08
It says if you make an account you can download it for free, though. Did you make an account and log in?
yes i did but then it's saying log in which i did and i'm logged in but it won't let me download it . i may be me as i'm hopeless at technology.
Hi , I have managed to download James's medal cards the downloads are free for 30 days . thanks to all for your sterling work .You are the best . I wish you all a wonderful new year and may all your dreams and aspirations come true . x chrissie
hi Could you check the GRO for any births please . ,I can't find any births on Free BND or lancashire BMd , i can't use the GRO because of issues with my browser . I am looking for births either paemberton or wigan for Winstanley mmn moss after 1793 . Thanks
kiterunner
02-02-22, 08:37
The GRO site starts at 1837, so the date range that you want is too early for that, also for FreeBMD and Lancashire BMD.
sorry. I did mean 1873 it's my fault . thanks
kiterunner
02-02-22, 12:31
1873 or 1893? There are loads of Winstanley / Moss births on Lancashire BMD from 1893 onwards.
1873 onwards pemberton or wigan
yes winstanley is a very common name in lancashire
Is this for the children of Peter and Rebecca?
Marriage: 19 Oct 1873 St Thomas, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Peter Winstanley - 20, Collier, Bachelor, Miry Lane
Rebecca Moss - (X), 23, Spinster, Miry Lane
Groom's Father: Thomas Winstanley, Collier
Bride's Father: James Moss, Stonemason
Witness: James Leicester; Elizabeth Leicester, (X)
Married by Certificate by: Jas. Cronshaw, Vicar
Register: Marriages 1870 - 1878, Page 104, Entry 208
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives
If not, can you please give the parents names.
rebecca moss and peter winstanley
kiterunner
02-02-22, 14:49
Okay, there are no Winstanley / Moss births in the right area on the GRO site between 1873 and 1892.
kiterunner
02-02-22, 14:52
On the 1881 census they only have one child, Rachel Moss age 12, and she would have been born before the marriage.
thanks for looking for me .
Have you found them on the census so can find names of children and place they were born
did you see there abode on the census ? thanks
kiterunner
02-02-22, 15:54
You can view the 1881 census transcription on FamilySearch for that kind of info:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q272-XR8W
i found a birth on lancs BMD for a rachel moss 1869 pemberton .
I found her birth on lancs. 1869 and got the census . thanks once again
hi I have been trying to find a marriage for mary Jane moss from the moss family post 21 . I found three around 1896 1897 and 1900 the first in 1896 to a alfred parkinson could be her as there isn't a fathers name mentioned . marriage pemberton st. john's . there's one in 1897 same church but not her wrong father . there is also a marriage in 1900 st thomas wigan . again wrong father ..How can i glean if the 1996 is her it's saying she's a servant in bell lane , which is just down the road from pemberton ? thanks
i've checked for her on the 1901 census and can't find her either married or not.
I expect this is the bride for Alfred Parkinson (Lancs OPC):
Baptism: 4 Jan 1874 St John the Divine, Pemberton, Lancashire, England
Mary Jane Moss - [Child] of Mary Moss
Born: 27 Aug 1873
Abode: Kitt Green Pemberton
Baptised by: W. Sparrow
Register: Baptisms 1860 - 1879, Page 322, Entry 2570
Source: LDS Film 1885635
The transcript of the marriage record on the same site gave her age as 22 in 1896.
From the 1901 and 1911 census records Mary Jane Parkinson says she was born about 1873/4 in Pemberton and in 1911 she says she has been married 15 years.
lancs bmd birth for mary jane mmn leicester 1875 so that could be her .
lancs bmd birth for mary jane mmn leicester 1875 so that could be her .
Unlikely:
Deaths Sep 1875
MOSS Mary Jane 0 Wigan 8c 68
Then they had another Mary Jane (all this is already on this thread around the post number you gave today):
MOSS, MARY JANE LEICESTER
GRO Reference: 1877 J Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 136
The marriage to Alfred Parkinson looks like it's to an illegitimate bride (no father on marriage record) and we have an illegitimate child born at the right date and place to fit perfectly (see my last post).
There's this marriage, which on the face of it looks wrong because the bride's father is William:
Marriage: 21 Aug 1897 St John the Divine, Pemberton, Lancashire, England
Richard Waite - 21, Collier, Bachelor, 11 City Road Orrell
Mary Jane Moss - 22, Mill Hand, Spinster, 16 Chapel St. Pemberton
Groom's Father: Thomas Waite, Horse Tenter
Bride's Father: William Moss, Collier
Witness: William Barlow; Mary Jane Ashcroft
Married by Banns by: E. F. Forrest Vicar
Register: Marriages 1895 - 1901, Page 71, Entry 141
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives
However, 16 Chapel St is the address for James and Margaret in 1901 (see post #5) and in 1901 Mary Jane Waite matches for age and birthplace. I can't see a baptism around the right time and place for a Mary Jane Moss with father William.
1901
10 City Rd Orrell
Richard 25
Mary J 25 b Pemberton
children Ann and Margaret
Sorry, no more time for details. Mary J died in 1905.
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