Still don't know!

[Nell]

Whether my gt grandmother married her 2nd "husband".

My gt grandmother, Emma Moore, married Thomas Matthews at St. Mary, Islington in 1865 and was widowed when Thomas died on their 14th wedding anniversary, 1st May 1879.

She turns up on 1881 census with 2nd husband, John Garvie and their two sons are registered as Garvie.

On 1911 census she states she's been married 29 years, though John died 2 years earlier.

I've just found the family Bible at my mother's house. The first entry is that of Thomas Matthews' birth. It gives Emma's birth and the births (and deaths) of their children. But it doesn't list their marriage.

I looked for Emma's marriage to John Garvie, thinking it might have been in the bible and overlooked all this time. Not finding it, I thought maybe it didn't happen as it isn't in the GRO indexes. But her first marriage isn't recorded either and I do have a copy of the certificate for that one.

It should be a narrow time frame between May 1879 and May 1881 but I can't find the marriage anywhere.

[James18]

I can't find anything, and I've tried various spellings.

Also, was it common to list things like marriage and birth dates in family bibles? I have my grandfather's bible but there's nothing like that in it.

[kiterunner]

Yes, it was a common thing but of course not in all Bibles.

I assume you have already looked into whether John Garvie was already married to someone else, Nell?

[James18]

In 1871 he's in Bootle as an unmarried lodger. He's from Gloucester and 24 years old, so it must be the same man. Going further back, his parents are John and Jane Garvie.

The only marriage I can find is this (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31280_197289-00257?pid=2939898&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH1768%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26gsfn%3DJoh n%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln%3DGarvie%26gsln_x%3D1%26msgd y%3D1868%26msgdy_x%3D1%26cpxt%3D1%26cp%3D11%26MSAV %3D2%26uidh%3Dyke%26pcat%3DBMD_MARRIAGE%26h%3D2939 898%26dbid%3D1623%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D5&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH1768&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) one, and it doesn't seem to be the same man. The others on Ancestry seem to be Scottish marriages... but John's father was Scottish.

Anyway, I don't know. I've just had a quick browse, and couldn't see any that look to be your John.

[Nell]

Kite and James

Thanks for looking. I don't think John was married before, it was one of the things I looked into when I couldn't find the marriage. Fortunately Garvie isn't too common a name here.

I also am wondering about pensions - would she not have to prove she was married to get John's pension? I think she would have married as there don't seem to be any impediments to marrying.

[Merry]

Did Emma register the death of her first husband?

[HarrysMum]

A few trees on Ancestry and all using the 1881 census for their marriage source.

[kiterunner]

Have you ruled out the John Garvie (Joannis) who married Ann Devitt (Devett) 1876 at St George East? It's in the Catholic records on FMP, so unlikely, but I haven't got a sub to view the image to check.

[Merry]

Have you ruled out the John Garvie (Joannis) who married Ann Devitt (Devett) 1876 at St George East? It's in the Catholic records on FMP, so unlikely, but I haven't got a sub to view the image to check.

This John Garvie is the son of George Garvie. His address at the time of the marriage was 2 Elm Row, Shadwell.

[kiterunner]

I suppose another possibility is that Emma married someone else after Thomas's death but before she met John Garvie, but there are a lot more Emma Mat(t)hews marriages to rule out than John Garvies!

[kiterunner]

I've looked through the Emma Mat(t)hews marriages in the London area Apr-Jun 1879 to Apr-Jun 1881 with no middle name and all those Emmas are spinsters on their marriage records.

[Nell]

Wow! Thank you KiteRunner, much appreciated.

Thomas Matthews' death cert gives informant as the coroner as there was an inquest.

[Merry]

Thanks Nell - I was just trying to establish they were still together when he died. However, was he the milkman who collapsed in the street because of a heart valve rupture? ....and his wife, Emma, was called to the scene from her home at 90 George's Road.....

[Nell]

Yes, that's them. My grandmother was born at 90 George's Road in 1876. The road Thomas collapsed in was the one parallel with and one block down from George's Road, it's changed its name twice since, which confused me to start with.