Ten children found, one still missing

[Michael]

My 2g-grandmother Selina Norman (nee Protheroe), living at 6 Pleasant Street, Swansea, was a widow at the time of the 1911 census (James Norman died in 1900) and therefore not required to fill in the columns on the census form giving the details of her marriage, but did so anyway; the enumerator had crossed out the figures, but they were still legible. She wrote that she had had 11 children, of whom 7 were living and 4 had died. I already knew the names of the seven surviving children, six of whom were living in the same household:

Ethelbert (aged 37 in 1911)
Mabel (34)
James (25)
"A Ed" (Archibald Edward, known by his middle name - 23)
Reginald Cedric (21)
Audrey (18)

The other surviving child, Robert James (30), was married with three kids and living at 3 Clifton Row nearby.

Until finding her entry on the census form I was unaware that there had been four who had died. Searching the baptism records at Glamorgan Archives identified two of them, and when the GRO released its index searchable by MMN I found a third:

Catherine Araminta (b and d 1875)
Archibald Edward (1879-1880; later child given the same name)
Thomas Edward (1884-1885)

I have searched the GRO index for the period of James and Selina's marriage; the above ten are the only ones with surname Norman and MMN Protheroe. The researcher at Glamorgan assured me that she had searched all the churches in the area, and not found any records of an eleventh child. I presume Selina must have known how many children she'd had - does anyone have any bright ideas where else I could look for the missing one please?

[James18]

Is it possible that Selina had a child that was miscarried late-term, or stillborn, and she is counting it as having been one of her children who have died?

One of my grandfather's elder brothers died as a toddler and doesn't appear to have ever had his birth registered; he appears on his only census entry as 'not yet named' and his death was registered shortly thereafter. I know it's the right family due to the fact he just so happens to have appeared on a census, but had I only been searching births I'd never have found him.

Perhaps, similarly, Selina had a child who died as an infant prior to the birth being registered?

Alternatively, I have at least one example of a child's death being registered by their surname only, and a dash where the forename would be. I don't know how common this was, but as they apparently had no name and died as an infant, I haven't put them on the family tree. Just something to bear in mind, Michael.

Best of luck in your quest. If I find anything of interest re Norman/Protheroe I'll let you know.

[James18]

Have you found any other baptisms, aside from this (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=whH1599&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&gsln=Norman&gsln_x=0&msfng=James&msmng=Selina&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=BMD_BIRTH&h=599972&dbid=60217&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1)?

[Michael]

Thank you, James. I hadn't considered the possibility of a stillbirth, but that might fit. Were they required to be registered?

The Glamorgan Archives researcher found five baptisms:

Ethelbert James Norman, baptised 20 September 1874, Swansea St Mary
Mabel Norman, baptised 31 July 1876, Swansea Holy Trinity
Archibald Edward Norman, baptised 12 March 1879 (of 6 Pleasant street), Swansea St Mary
Robert James Norman, baptised 12 February 1881, Swansea Holy Trinity
Thomas Edward Norman, baptised 15 June 1884, Swansea Holy Trinity

That was the first trace I found of the older Archibald Edward and Thomas; Catherine I only pinned down thanks to the GRO index with the MMN. Before that became available, I'd tried making educated guesses of which Normans dying in infancy in Swansea might have been from the family; the speculatively ordered certificates turned up one niece and one nephew of James and Selina, but no further children.

[Merry]

There was no requirement to register stillbirths until the 1920s and even then it was optional (I think).

[Mary from Italy]

Council cemeteries sometimes record burials of stillborn children.

[Michael]

Thanks for the suggestion, Mary. Swansea council does offer a search of cemetery records, so it looks like that will be my next try.

[Michael]

Search results back from Swansea - Danygraig Cemetery has the following:

9/10/1875, Norman, Cath. 3 months
27/2/1880, Norman, Archibald, 14 months

with both their parents, Selina's mother Sarah and a few other family members in the same grave. The entry was originally marked "grave full" with the burial of Selina in 1922, but they clearly found room for one more - Ethelbert, their oldest child, died in 1948, and is buried in the same grave with a new "grave full" date. Curiously, Thomas Edward Norman is in a different grave.

That establishes the resting places of the three whom I already knew about, but doesn't help with the one I didn't!

[JBee]

Why don't you use the GRO and trawl the births. You will need to log in though.

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

You presumably know the mother's maiden name and time scale so that should narrow it down. Don't forget you can only check dates +2 years and by sex too.

[kiterunner]

He already said in post #1 that he had done that, Julie.

[Michael]

Yes, searching the indexes found me the tenth name but not the eleventh. I did try ordering certificates for some of the infant deaths in Swansea in the period - or, where I could match the two, the corresponding births - in the hope of finding him/her. Doing so yielded some unexpected bonus information - two of them were daughters of two of James Norman's brothers (first cousins of the above ten), and a third was the illegitimate son of another first cousin. Five were no relation at all, though, and I stopped there as it was getting too expensive to keep ordering them on the off-chance that one might be right!

[Merry]

My grandmother had thirteen registered children, but she was never clear about how many children she had produced. The number she would come up with was generally 12, 13, 14 or 15. Of the thirteen, eleven grew to adulthood and two died, one at about three months and one at about a year, so no reason to say you had only produced 12. As far as we know (from her directly, or her husband) there were no stillbirths, but may have been miscarriages to bring the number up to 15, but I think it as likely she just guessed!