My missing ancestor MIA Caroline Hannah Kendall

[maggie_4_7]

Well here she is any suggestions on what to do to find this elusive ancestor will be appreciated.

I have trawled passenger lists, census, deaths etc all the normal stuff.

Caroline Hannah Kendall
Father = John Kendall (Tailor), mother = Caroline Cook

Birth: 7 August 1841 • 3 Old North Street, Holborn, London, England

Baptism: 25 December 1842 • St Mark's Church, Goodmans Fields, Aldgate, London, England
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1558/31280_196338-00016/2678451?backurl=https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/1310698/person/-1806687624/facts/citation/6001227079/edit/record

1851 Census • 21 Minories, Aldgate, London, Middlesex, England
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/8860/MDXHO107_1524_1524-0202/2873077?backurl=https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/1310698/person/-1806687624/facts/citation/-1612798749/edit/record

1861 Census • Windmill, 18 Nicholas Lane, St Martin Orgar, London, England - Barmaid aged 19
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/8767/MDXRG9_223_228-1083/5480766?backurl=https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/1310698/person/-1806687624/facts/citation/-1612798448/edit/record

http://pubshistory.com/LondonPubs/StMartinOrgars/Windmill.shtml

Marriage: to George Daniel Duff (b1833 - d1865)
12 October 1862 • St John the Evangelist, Penge, Kent, England
Witnesses George Edward and Sophie Paris (name could be Parrs)
(I have the marriage cert)
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=9852&h=13423583&ssrc=pt&tid=1310698&pid=-1633142747&usePUB=true

George is a Notary Public like his father, the family seem to be ‘well off’ I don’t know how Caroline met George but I believe it could have been in the pub! Although I would think being a barmaid in those days wouldn’t be that reputable or am I wrong? Caroline's mother Caroline was running her own tobacco business out of 21 Minories in 1857 I have the original licence. As an aside George's uncle William Duff rented premises in Nicholson Lane he was also a Notary Public.

https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/2170/31364_611411_1204-00187/20078777?backurl=https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/1310698/person/694923980/facts/citation/6329426040/edit/record

1869 - Still Alive

Caroline is named as sponsor on baptism for John Edward Duff's (George’s brother) daughter Helen Louisa in Timaru, New Zealand would not necessary be resident in New Zealand. Although when I found this out I did search passenger lists but never really found anything.

… and that’s it never to be see again!

Her husband’s details:-

George Daniel Duff
Father = John Rutherford Duff (Notary), mother = Isabella Fisher Wright

Birth
abt 1833 • Brixton, Surrey, England

Baptism: 18 January 1833 • St Mark's Church, Kennington, London, England
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1558/31280_194573-00092/1407126?backurl=https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/1310698/person/-1633142747/facts/citation/3118933714/edit/record

1851 Census • Westminster St John The Evangelist, Middlesex, England
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/8860/MDXHO107_1478_1479-0299/13111?backurl=https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/1310698/person/-1633142747/facts/citation/3118786035/edit/record

1861 Census • Islington St Mary, Middlesex, England
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/8767/MDXRG9_129_131-0039/5053803?backurl=https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/1310698/person/-1633142747/facts/citation/3118788929/edit/record

Death
7 August 1865 • 2 Heath Terrace, Penge, Surrey, England

On George’s death certificate the informant is H Green (no idea if female or male) in attendance of 4 Heath Terrace. Cause of death phthisis 14 months. I have looked for H Green on census but nothing.

When I got this death certificate I thought that possibly Caroline had already died because I would expect her name to be informant but couldn’t find any death for her but then a contact in NZ a descendant of John Edward Duff (George’s older brother who emigated to NZ) said that Caroline is a sponsor on a baptism (see above).

I haven’t found a will nor probate for George which I find unusual considering his family all being Notaries.

Burial
12 August 1865 • Highgate Cemetary, London, England
https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/1559/31547_212658-00213/10084189?backurl=https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/1310698/person/-1633142747/facts/citation/6014547473/edit/record

[kiterunner]

There is a Caroline Duff who died Apr-Jun 1872 Pancras, age 29. Buried 31 May 1872 "Camden", according to Deceased Online, but doesn't come up in the Deceased Online database on ancestry, so I assume their copy hasn't been updated recently enough. But there is a matching Caroline Duff in Pancras on the 1871 census, age 28, born Douglas, IOM, so I guess we can rule that death out.

[kiterunner]

Hmm, googling came up with this, but I can't view the image to check as I'm not a member of the site:

Commercial Gazette Newspaper Archives, Feb 5, 1880, p. 14 ...
newspaperarchive.com/uk/middlesex/london/commercial-gazette/1880/02.../page-14
Cohnreich Paul, 59 Southwark-bridge-road, Scnthwark .. musical entertainer Duff Caroline Hannah, Agnes-villas, Somers-road,Brixton-hill.. widow .. .. Deane ...

https://newspaperarchive.com/commercial-gazette-feb-05-1880-p-14/

[kiterunner]

It's difficult to find a decent quality image similar to the page which she appears on (without paying newspaperarchive.com!) , but I think it may be a list of court judgements regarding debts.

[kiterunner]

On the 1871 census, Agnes Villas, Somers Road, has a William Oakes, 61, born Ossett, Yorkshire, with his family. It is listed between number 5 and number 6.

There is no address listed between numbers 5 and 6 in 1881 but there is an extra household (Samuel Martin, 69, born Sussex, Forest Row, and his family) which could be Agnes Villas, but no sign of Caroline. Maybe she was hiding out somewhere to avoid her creditors?

[maggie_4_7]

Hmm, googling came up with this, but I can't view the image to check as I'm not a member of the site:

Commercial Gazette Newspaper Archives, Feb 5, 1880, p. 14 ...
newspaperarchive.com/uk/middlesex/london/commercial-gazette/1880/02.../page-14
Cohnreich Paul, 59 Southwark-bridge-road, Scnthwark .. musical entertainer Duff Caroline Hannah, Agnes-villas, Somers-road,Brixton-hill.. widow .. .. Deane ...

Sorry Kiterunner been out and about.

Oooh this looks promising the Duffs were from around that area.

I will need to check it out, perhaps she just changed her name!

I assume musical entertainer goes with the person before her.

I think that is her. Thank you so much.

I have never found her on a census after 1861! Mistranscribed perhaps or different name.

[HarrysMum]

Thought I'd found Caroline's death here in Australia but I'm not confident. It's a death notice from 1942, saying she is 97. Nothing else really here or NZ.

[Merry]

Didn't she have any children?

[Chris in Sussex]

Just to say...

I was told (cannot remember when or in what circumstances) that legal people were the worst offenders for not making a will. The reasoning being that they knew the laws of inheritance and relied on the law to carry out without them having the expense of making a will. That, of course, assumes that they knew that the rules of law would carry out exactly what they intended.

I do have instances of this in my own tree but earlier than the 1800s.

Chris

[kiterunner]

I assume musical entertainer goes with the person before her.


Yes, I think so.

[kiterunner]

Thought I'd found Caroline's death here in Australia but I'm not confident. It's a death notice from 1942, saying she is 97. Nothing else really here or NZ.

That one is shown in the death notice as mother of Isabella, James, George, Mary, Robert, Amelia, Sabina, John, Martha, Lewis, Frank, Caroline, Eliza, Dave, Williamina and Herb. Her father's name on the NSW BDM index is John, and the children's names come up on the NSW birth index from 1865 to 1892 with parents Robert and Caroline. So it doesn't look to be the right Caroline.

[kiterunner]

Didn't she have any children?

The new online GRO birth index has some Duff / Kendall children in Thanet but there is a Duff / Kendall marriage in Thanet in 1865 who they belong to (coincidentally, another George and Caroline, but he has no middle name and hers is Jane.)

[Merry]

....But Maggie says Caroline Hannah was her ancestor. :confused:

[kiterunner]

I think she is the sister of Maggie's direct ancestor, Merry.

[maggie_4_7]

....But Maggie says Caroline Hannah was her ancestor. :confused:

Sorry Merry yes Kiterunner is right Caroline is the sister of my Great Grandfather, he had two siblings who survived infancy Eliza his older half sister and Caroline his full sister who was also older than him.

I tracked Eliza's two marriages and all her children and her death. But Caroline nothing.

Edit to say: I am at work today and at another office so I might not be able to respond, but I think that is such a good lead Kiterunner I am going to try to check it out today when I get a chance.

[maggie_4_7]

Hmm, googling came up with this, but I can't view the image to check as I'm not a member of the site:

Commercial Gazette Newspaper Archives, Feb 5, 1880, p. 14 ...
newspaperarchive.com/uk/middlesex/london/commercial-gazette/1880/02.../page-14
Cohnreich Paul, 59 Southwark-bridge-road, Scnthwark .. musical entertainer Duff Caroline Hannah, Agnes-villas, Somers-road,Brixton-hill.. widow .. .. Deane ...

https://newspaperarchive.com/commercial-gazette-feb-05-1880-p-14/

I was thinking of joining that site - is it reputable? No indication of subscription costs before you join.

I suspect that is the only mention of Caroline there.

I checked British Newspaper archives they don't seem to list this publication!

[kiterunner]

I was thinking of joining that site - is it reputable?

Well, I do remember reading this about them a while back.
http://www.cluewagon.com/2014/05/want-a-full-refund-on-your-newspaperarchive-com-subscription-just-ask-about-their-charity/

So no, not really.

Edit - and although their Wikipedia page has a warning at the top that it is too much like an advert, and written by people associated with the company, it does include this:
in June 2014, The Iowa Attorney General’s Office opened an investigation after complaints about deceptive and misleading practices that include charging subscribers for involuntary donations to a charity.[8] As of August 1, 2014, Newspaper Archive, Inc. had a rating of F from Better Business Bureau.

[kiterunner]

Newspapers.com, which is part of ancestry (but not included in a normal ancestry sub), does have some issues of the Commercial Gazette, but not as far back as 1880, unfortunately.

[maggie_4_7]

Well, I do remember reading this about them a while back.
http://www.cluewagon.com/2014/05/want-a-full-refund-on-your-newspaperarchive-com-subscription-just-ask-about-their-charity/

So no, not really.

Edit - and although their Wikipedia page has a warning at the top that it is too much like an advert, and written by people associated with the company, it does include this:
in June 2014, The Iowa Attorney General’s Office opened an investigation after complaints about deceptive and misleading practices that include charging subscribers for involuntary donations to a charity.[8] As of August 1, 2014, Newspaper Archive, Inc. had a rating of F from Better Business Bureau.

That's what I thought.

I found another entry for her, how I don't know.

Thursday, January 31, 1884
*Duff*Caroline*Hannah, 5 County-grove, Camberwell.,*

More dodgy dealings or what, now I know where my Grandfather got it from. His father was fine but the Carolines both mother and daughter what can I say.

Edit to say: it doesn't help that my laptop isn't working very well, since Mozilla Firefox updated a month ago I am having trouble loading most websites Ancestry being one of them and also Facebook. I find it difficult to capture information and data on the tablet, it's such hard work. Searching is fine, reading is fine but trying to copy and organise data is **** on a tablet.

I am going to buy a new laptop any suggestions?

[kiterunner]

Apart from don't get a Dell one, I don't really know, sorry. Maybe ask on the General board?
Well done on finding the 1884 entry! It's page 7 of that edition, so it looks to be "Bills of Sale", whereas the page 14 one in 1880 looks like "Bankruptcies, Arraignments, Liquidations," and some more words I can't make out. But in both cases I'm assuming the heading from one page applies until you get to another page with a bold heading.

Anyway, so she should be around somewhere in 1881, but as you said, maybe under a false name.

[kiterunner]

1881 census entry for 5 County Grove, Camberwell is "1 uninhabited". :rolleyes:

[maggie_4_7]

1881 census entry for 5 County Grove, Camberwell is "1 uninhabited". :rolleyes:

Yep just found that now Ancestry decided to load.


https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/7572/LNDRG11_670_673-0128?pid=21083012&backurl=http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DhMB16%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource% 26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3Duki1881%26gss %3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gskw%3DCounty%2520Grove,% 2520Camberwell%26_83004003-n_xcl%3Dm%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dek4%26ssrc%3Dpt_t131 0698_p-1806687624%26pcat%3D35%26fh%3D1%26h%3D21083012%26r ecoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D2&ssrc=pt_t1310698_p-1806687624&treeid=1310698&personid=-1806687624&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=hMB16&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=LNDRG11_670_673-0129

It's not me is it? She is being elusive the only documents she's turning up in are court documents where it is best you don't lie about your name it seems.

[maggie_4_7]

She is so frustrating, no census and we now know she was alive for both 1871 and 1881!

She is definitely hiding. I have tried everything - first name only with a few variables and other permutations. But if she never filled in a census I won't find her or if she put a false name even.

Thank you so much for your help Kiterunner. Biggest clue I have ever had for her!

I suppose I need to track these reports. I looked for a will and probate nothing yet.

[maggie_4_7]

Found her at last in 1867 in Penge at the address George died at 2 Heath Terrace, I wonder why she wasn't the informant! This result has never come up in searches before!

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=3145&h=21976475&tid=1310698&pid=-1806687624&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ehp12&_phstart=successSource

https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/3145/gb9002p-00397?pid=21976475&backurl=http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D3145%26h%3D21976475%26t id%3D1310698%26pid%3D-1806687624%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DEhp12%26_phs tart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=1310698&personid=-1806687624&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ehp12&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true