Who was Derek? [Archive] - Genealogists' Forum - We have branches everywhere!

Muggins in Sussex

27-12-09, 09:37

brenmac

27-12-09, 09:47

i was listening to a telly program on people who changed there names by deed poll.you can still find out who they were but sadly i didnt get the address try googling brenda xxx

Muggins in Sussex

27-12-09, 09:50

Thanks Brenda

I managed to find the address for Derek's surving son, and wrote to him, but never had any reply ;(

MargaretMarch

27-12-09, 10:02

Derek Malcolm Wicks (died 1959) was adopted by Henry William Wicks and his wife, Caroline Ruth.

This is what I have so far.

26.3.26 Derek was born in London, I believe (I don't have a cert!)

21.06.26 he was issued with an emergency travel document by the British Embassy (Consular Section) in Paris

September 1927 he is on a passenger list with Caroline Ruth - so presumably he was living with the Wicks's by then.

31.08.28 there is an entry for him on the Adopted Children's Register.

Is there any more I can do to find out who he was ? - presumably he was not born with the surname Wicks :confused:

The only way to find his birth name would have been for him to apply for his birth certificate. I don't think anyone else can do that now.

If you had information about where exactly he was born you could perhaps try to look for all the males born that day in the register concerned and then try to narrow it down, but given it was London I don't hold out much hope.

I suppose the other line of enquiry would be to see if he was born to Caroline before her marriage and then adopted by Wicks to simply regularise the situation after their marriage especially since they travelled abroad. Any record may or may not give his father's name presuming it wasn't Wicks.

Margaret

samesizedfeet

27-12-09, 10:03

Are you sure he wasn't a Wicks?? I'd find it very strange that he'd be issued with a travel document in the Wicks name in 1926 if that didn't officially become his name until he was adopted in 1928.

Muggins in Sussex

27-12-09, 10:19

The only way to find his birth name would have been for him to apply for his birth certificate. I don't think anyone else can do that now.

If you had information about where exactly he was born you could perhaps try to look for all the males born that day in the register concerned and then try to narrow it down, but given it was London I don't hold out much hope.

I suppose the other line of enquiry would be to see if he was born to Caroline before her marriage and then adopted by Wicks to simply regularise the situation after their marriage especially since they travelled abroad. Any record may or may not give his father's name presuming it wasn't Wicks.

Margaret

Thanks Margaret - he doesn't appear to have been registered in his mother's maiden - also he wasn't the only child that the Wick's adopted :confused:

Are you sure he wasn't a Wicks?? I'd find it very strange that he'd be issued with a travel document in the Wicks name in 1926 if that didn't officially become his name until he was adopted in 1928.

Sorry Zoe - I didn't explain it fully! - probably because it's a bit complicated- LOL! I have't seen the travel document issued in 1926 and don't know what name it was in.

I have a copy of another travel document issued in 1946 (when Derek waas returning to London from Germany to attend his father's trial at the Old Bailey). This 1946 document was completed by Derek and in answer to the question "Are you in possession of a passport?" he has answered "Emergency Certificate No 781 issued Paris 21.6.26 British Embassy (Consular Section) adopted son birth certificate ACR8402/6 copy London 19.9.46"

maggie_4_7

27-12-09, 10:22

Are you sure he wasn't a Wicks?? I'd find it very strange that he'd be issued with a travel document in the Wicks name in 1926 if that didn't officially become his name until he was adopted in 1928.

You are thinking the same as me.

But adoption laws didn't come into force in England and Wales until 1926 it probably wouldn't have mattered it depends which month they became law and when the Wicks family travelled perhaps there was a very small window of opportunity there for them and the name on the travel documents wouldn't matter in any case I don't think :confused:

Ahh I now see that they travelled in June 1926...

Edit to say: I just had another thought perhaps thats exactly why they did travel abroad at that particular time, perhaps they were trying to avoid something...

Muggins in Sussex

27-12-09, 10:43

You are thinking the same as me.

But adoption laws didn't come into force in England and Wales until 1926 it probably wouldn't have mattered it depends which month they became law and when the Wicks family travelled perhaps there was a very small window of opportunity there for them and the name on the travel documents wouldn't matter in any case I don't think :confused:

Ahh I now see that they travelled in June 1926...

Edit to say: I just had another thought perhaps thats exactly why they did travel abroad at that particular time, perhaps they were trying to avoid something...

Thanks Maggie - I think Wicks spent a very large part of his life trying to avoid things! LOL

maggie_4_7

27-12-09, 11:01

Thanks Margaret - he doesn't appear to have been registered in his mother's maiden - also he wasn't the only child that the Wick's adopted :confused:

Sorry Zoe - I didn't explain it fully! - probably because it's a bit complicated- LOL! I have't seen the travel document issued in 1926 and don't know what name it was in.

I have a copy of another travel document issued in 1946 (when Derek waas returning to London from Germany to attend his father's trial at the Old Bailey). This 1946 document was completed by Derek and in answer to the question "Are you in possession of a passport?" he has answered "Emergency Certificate No 781 issued Paris 21.6.26 British Embassy (Consular Section) adopted son birth certificate ACR8402/6 copy London 19.9.46"

Joan

Sorry I am confused :) but that last bit "adopted son birth certificate ACR8402/6 copy London 19.9.46" does that mean it was issued to Derek in 1946 for him to travel and as you said before he was adopted 1928?

The thing I meant about avoiding was that if Derek was born March 1926 and they asked for a travel permit in June he was still only a very small baby and perhaps they were trying to avoid the adoption issue at that time for some reason.

You are right though when this gentleman is involved it does make you think there is something strange going on but it could be totally innocent of course and there was no ulterior motive and the explanation is quite simple :)

Muggins in Sussex

27-12-09, 11:15

Joan

Sorry I am confused :) but that last bit "adopted son birth certificate ACR8402/6 copy London 19.9.46" does that mean it was issued to Derek in 1946 for him to travel and as you said before he was adopted 1928?

The thing I meant about avoiding was that if Derek was born March 1926 and they asked for a travel permit in June he was still only a very small baby and perhaps they were trying to avoid the adoption issue at that time for some reason.

You are right though when this gentleman is involved it does make you think there is something strange going on but it could be totally innocent of course and there was no ulterior motive and the explanation is quite simple :)

LOL Maggie - I'm confused too!! The way the form has been filled in, it's a bit difficult to tell whether the words "copy London 19.07.46" (it's 07, I think not not 09 like I said before!) go with the bit about the birth cert, or the bit about the emergency cert! - but I think it's the birth cert.

The entry in the adopted chidren's register is dated 31/08/28

The number in the register is 5228, Vol 11 - although the ACR number quoted on the form looks like 8402/6

This is making me dizzy LOL!!!

Thanks for your help

maggie_4_7

27-12-09, 11:29

Yeah I think it must have been a copy of the 'Adopted' birth certificate of 1928, everytime the GRO or RO issue certs they have a unique reference number for legal reasons obviously.

Its going to be difficult Joan I'm not sure you're going to find out where he came from unless like someone else pointed out, which I think is very possible, that he came from within the extended family and with him being so young it is very possible.

Its a shame his son hasn't responded.

But I expect the clues are there.

Edit to say: I don't know anything about adoption issues, but have you got that birth cert (the 1928 one) sorry if its obvious with the information you've given but I do get in a muddle sometimes.

Also was Henry Wicks married before Caroline or am I getting him confused with his father?

Muggins in Sussex

27-12-09, 13:33

Thanks again, Maggie

Yes it is confusing! :confused:

As I understand it, I would not be allowed to see the 1928 certicate, because it is an adoption certificate.

H W did have an earlier marriage -he married Mary Symes in 1915, but she died in 1918.

I think you are right that Derek came from within the extended family, because the other child that HW "adopted", my mother's sister did also.

Maybe one day things will all fall into place!

vallee

27-12-09, 14:13

hi Joan seems like you are getting closer ???? do hope so .
what area do you think this Derek was born?

MargaretMarch

27-12-09, 14:46

Is it worth having another try to get the son to respond? Maybe he lost your letter or was preoccupied with other issues when you contacted him before. If you think he doesn't know some of the fascinating things you have found out perhaps you could encourage him to reply by giving him a tid bit or two with the promise of more if he responds?
Margaret

maggie_4_7

27-12-09, 15:03

I think Margaret has a point I would give it another go. Its possible he doesn't actually know anything about his father's life and adopted family but perhaps he'd like to and you know more to tell him or perhaps he does know some things that he would be willing to share now.

Muggins in Sussex

27-12-09, 16:31

hi Joan seems like you are getting closer ???? do hope so .
what area do you think this Derek was born?

Thanks Val :) According to the form he filled in, Derek says he was born in London - (BTW, this is Derek, not my other mystery, Eric!! LOL) :)

Is it worth having another try to get the son to respond? Maybe he lost your letter or was preoccupied with other issues when you contacted him before. If you think he doesn't know some of the fascinating things you have found out perhaps you could encourage him to reply by giving him a tid bit or two with the promise of more if he responds?
Margaret

I think Margaret has a point I would give it another go. Its possible he doesn't actually know anything about his father's life and adopted family but perhaps he'd like to and you know more to tell him or perhaps he does know some things that he would be willing to share now.

Thank you M & M :d - I think I will try the son again - it may be that he finds it difficult because he doesn't know that I know about his family background -and doesn't know how to respond (his father was in a Hitler Youth Camp, and his grandfather, who may also have been my grandfather, made pro-Nazi radio broadcasts from Berlin to Germany during WW2 and was convicted of having committed offences likely to assist the enemy).

Or maybe he has simply disowned his family.

Maybe I should say in the letter something like -"I have been researching my family history for some time, and understand that there are things in the past which we may find unpalatable. So I will not be shocked by anything you tell me"

How does that sound?

On the other hand, the other child that HW adopted, my late aunt, reamined a Nazi sympathiser and a holocaust denier :eek:

So without knowing where his sympathies lie, it's a little difficult to know what to say :confused:

MargaretMarch

27-12-09, 17:24

Thanks Val :)

Maybe I should say in the letter something like -"I have been researching my family history for some time, and understand that there are things in the past which we may find unpalatable. So I will not be shocked by anything you tell me"

How does that sound?

On the other hand, the other child that HW adopted, my late aunt, reamined a Nazi sympathiser and a holocaust denier :eek:

So without knowing where his sympathies lie, it's a little difficult to know what to say :confused:
Muggins,

I think I would say something about you have some knowledge about what happened in the past and what the various people did and said/believed may or may not be something you/he agrees with but that's in the past and all you are trying to do is compile an accurate account of the family tree and maybe even set the record straight in some way.

It seems to me that regardless of what your ancestors did (and some people's have done a awful lot worse!!) it seems to me that getting the family history down correctly is quite an important thing and doesn't need to be judgemental.

Good luck!
Margaret

Muggins in Sussex

27-12-09, 17:45

Muggins,

I think I would say something about you have some knowledge about what happened in the past and what the various people did and said/believed may or may not be something you/he agrees with but that's in the past and all you are trying to do is compile an accurate account of the family tree and maybe even set the record straight in some way.

It seems to me that regardless of what your ancestors did (and some people's have done a awful lot worse!!) it seems to me that getting the family history down correctly is quite an important thing and doesn't need to be judgemental.

Good luck!
Margaret

Thank you Margaret- that makes a lot of sense :)

vallee

27-12-09, 18:15

I did gather that Joan ,trust you to have a awkward family.
Maybe one day you will find your really royalty ??????but dont think I will curtsey :LOL

Mandy in Wiltshire

27-12-09, 20:50

Hi Joan

I'm afraid that there is no way at all that a birth name and a name on the Adopted Children's Register can be connected. For instance, my birth name appears in the birth registration indexes and my adoptive name appears in the Adopted Children's Register, but unless I choose to tell someone my birth name, there's no way that anyone can find it out.

The Certificate of Adoption is a sort of replacement birth certificate and contains only details of the 'new' name and the adoptive parents' details, there's no reference on there to the original birth name. It is accepted as a legal document in the same way as a birth certificate (until I applied for my original birth certificate in my late 30s, my COA was accepted for my passport application etc). The COA is issued once the legal adoption process goes through the courts.

Sorry this isn't good news but hopefully it might help a little!

Mandy in Wiltshire

27-12-09, 20:54

I've just checked on the GRO website and as long as you've got full details of the event, you can order a copy of the adoption certificate. However, as it only contains post-adoption information, it probably won't contain anything that you don't already know.

Olde Crone

27-12-09, 20:59

I don't know if this helps or hinders, or indeed is completely irrelevant, lol, but official adoption did not start until 1927, even though the law was passed in 1926. So, if you have a CofA dated 1928, then he must have been nearly two when he was adopted (in other words, not at birth).

As Mandy points out, the Law is designed to ensure that there is NO link between birth certificate and adoption. Only the Registrar General can access that information and that link is only ever available to the adopted person.

I THINK (but will bear correction!) that anyone can get a copy of the adoption cert because it will not tell you anything you do not already know.

OC

Kit

27-12-09, 23:33

In this case though the adoption cert will confirm exactly who adopted Derek and when.

I don't know how to help you Joan but do read your threads with interest.

If we suspect Derek was adopted within the family do we think his first name was changed? If so has anyone had a look at ancestry to see if any Derek Malcolm's were born in the right quarter?

What I don't understand is why Wicks wanted to adopt in the first place.

As for Derek's son write again and say you know little about the family but would like to find out what you can be it good, bad or indifferent. Could he please tell you what his father, and mother, may have said about his parents, grandparents etc. Even anecdotes will make the family feel more real.

Muggins in Sussex

28-12-09, 06:22

Thank you for all your advice :) I will apply for the Adoption Cert on the offchance it tells me something new, and will write to the son again.

I have looked on Ancestry for Derek Malcolms and nothing stands out - but as Kit says, his forename may have been changed, too.

I've no idea why Wicks wanted to adopt children - he doesn't strike me as the fatherly type-LOL! it caused my grandmother so much distress when he snatched her daughter.

I do have Derek Malcolm's death cert. There was an inquest and a verdict of accidental death was returned. He had been "struck by a private motor car in street".

HW subsequently alleged on several occassions that this was no accident and that his son had been murdered.

I have read newspaper reports of the incident and am sure it was simply an accident - HW fantasizing again!! LOL

JessBow

28-12-09, 07:36

I dont think the adoption cert will tell you anything you dont already know.
Who knows if his name was changed? ~You can look at Derek Malcome's until you are blue in the face. You still wont know because even if you send for a likely cert and it says

father Fred Bloggs mother Florence Bloggs nee Flippertyjibbert,

you still wont know its your man

Kit

28-12-09, 07:55

Jess if Derek was adopted from within the family the birth surname may stand out, assuming Derek was the birth name. If he wasn't adopted within the family or it is too distant a relative then it wont help.

Merry

28-12-09, 09:25

It's a pity the birth indexes for his year don't have middle names - I bet a lot of those Derek Ms were Derek Michael or Derek Matthew or whatever.

I wondered if he might have kept his forenames as he was older when adopted? You could try looking for deaths of other Derek M Wicks who were born a the right time to eliminate some of those birth records, but it would probably just be an exercise in making the list a bit shorter, whilst imagining his name may have been changed anyway!

What a pity he didn't say he was born in some obscure village!