Dates of birth

[albert73]

How can I find a date of birth of a relative long dead?

[kiterunner]

It will be easier to help if you can post up the details that you have about them so far, Albert.

[albert73]

It will be easier to help if you can post up the details that you have about them so far, Albert.

I only have a date of death as 3rd January 1994 and his name is George Henry Sadler. He lived in Walthamstowe, London.

[kiterunner]

His entry in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007 on ancestry shows his date of birth as 3 Feb 1910. Searching for a George Sadler with that date of birth in the 1939 Register search on Findmypast comes up with George H Sadler in Walthamstow, and FreeBMD shows that there is a George Henry Sadler birth registered Jan-Mar 1910 in West Ham district, which was the district for Walthamstow. So 3 Feb 1910 looks to be correct.

[albert73]

His entry in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007 on ancestry shows his date of birth as 3 Feb 1910. Searching for a George Sadler with that date of birth in the 1939 Register search on Findmypast comes up with George H Sadler in Walthamstow, and FreeBMD shows that there is a George Henry Sadler birth registered Jan-Mar 1910 in West Ham district, which was the district for Walthamstow. So 3 Feb 1910 looks to be correct.

Thank you kindly. So, if I buy his birth certificate I will then get to know who his parents had been?

[kiterunner]

Thank you kindly. So, if I buy his birth certificate I will then get to know who his parents had been?

It will at least tell you who his mother was, but we may be able to figure it out another way, so don't order it just yet, though of course it may end up that you need to order it to be certain that any info we find is correct.

The new online GRO Birth Index shows mother's maiden name even for pre-1911 births:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
And it has George Henry Sadler's mother's maiden name as Seward.

Back in a minute to see if I can find out more.

[ElizabethHerts]

Yes it would be a good idea.

Also, looking at the 1911 Census, there is a George Henry Sadler living in Walthamstow with his parents George Joseph Sadler and Edith Emily Dew SDler. He is a only childhttp://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/search.php?do=getnew

[albert73]

Yes it would be a good idea.

Also, looking at the 1911 Census, there is a George Henry Sadler living in Walthamstow with his parents George Joseph Sadler and Edith Emily Dew SDler. He is a only childhttp://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/search.php?do=getnew

Would there be any record of George producing any children?

[kiterunner]

Let's just try to confirm George's parents first and then see if we can find out about any children who he had, although if they could be / are still alive, we wouldn't post details on the message boards.

FreeBMD has a likely marriage for George Joseph Sadler and Edith Emily D Seward, Oct-Dec 1904 Hackney, and ancestry has the actual marriage record confirming that they married each other 24 Dec 1904 at St Peter, West Hackney:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_197599-00139/3121001?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return

[kiterunner]

The National Probate Calendar has this entry:
1958
SADLER George Joseph of 116 Warner Road Walthamstow Essex died 30 January 1947 Administration London 12 September to George Henry Sadler porter. Effects £561 7s 10d.

You can search it for free on here and it will have info on how to order copies of wills / letters of administration (the above would only be letters of administration, no will, so might not tell you much):
https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate

[kiterunner]

It doesn't look as though George Henry Sadler left a will, which is a shame as it would have been a good way to find out whether he had children.

Ah, he is listed in the "unclaimed estates":
http://bona-vacantia.com/unclaimed-estate/sadler-george-henry/date-of-death/03011994

[kiterunner]

The 1965 London electoral register (on ancestry) has George H Sadler listed at 115 Warner Road, Walthamstow, but nobody else listed with him. And as far as I can tell from the free search of the 1939 Register, George J Sadler, Edith E Sadler and George H Sadler were all together in Walthamstow in 1939 with nobody else.

I don't suppose George Henry Sadler's death was registered by a relative if his estate is unclaimed.

[albert73]

I recall my mother talking of Eddie or Eaddie, perhaps being a reference to his wife. I had another uncle George Sadler but he was far away in Norfolk and died around 1956-7. am trying to establish if he was a cousin of my mother who was Madeline Beatrice Sadler until she married. She had lived at Edmonton, just a mile or so from George. It seems that his father or grandfather may be the connections.

[albert73]

The National Probate Calendar has this entry:
1958
SADLER George Joseph of 116 Warner Road Walthamstow Essex died 30 January 1947 Administration London 12 September to George Henry Sadler porter. Effects £561 7s 10d.

You can search it for free on here and it will have info on how to order copies of wills / letters of administration (the above would only be letters of administration, no will, so might not tell you much):
https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate

There is no record of a Will for George Joseph Sadler.

[kiterunner]

That's what I said, Albert - George Joseph Sadler's estate went to administration and there was no will.

[albert73]

That's what I said, Albert - George Joseph Sadler's estate went to administration and there was no will.

Sorry. I didn't know the difference!!

[kiterunner]

I recall my mother talking of Eddie or Eaddie, perhaps being a reference to his wife. I had another uncle George Sadler but he was far away in Norfolk and died around 1956-7. am trying to establish if he was a cousin of my mother who was Madeline Beatrice Sadler until she married. She had lived at Edmonton, just a mile or so from George. It seems that his father or grandfather may be the connections.

George Joseph Sadler's marriage certificate says his father was Henry Sadler, an oilman. George Joseph was born about 1878 in Bow, London (according to the 1911 census). Who was your mother's father?

[albert73]

George Joseph Sadler's marriage certificate says his father was Henry Sadler, an oilman. George Joseph was born about 1878 in Bow, London (according to the 1911 census). Who was your mother's father?

I will have to find my mother's birth certificate.

[albert73]

My mother was born to Charles Frederick Sadler and Agnes Martha Sadler on 17th October 1906. Mother died in January 1987. They had lived in Edmonton but the family had originated from West Norfolk.

[kiterunner]

Okay, so on the 1901 census Charles is age 31, born Snettisham, Norfolk. There is a transcription of his marriage record on FreeREG (they married 11 Feb 1899 at Ingoldisthorpe) and it says his father was Charles Frederick Sadler, a labourer. I think we need to find George Joseph Sadler on a census to see where his father came from.

[kiterunner]

This looks to be George Joseph's family in 1881 in Bromley, London:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/LNDRG11_499_502-0010/15489962?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return

Henry Saddler Head Mar 31 Oilman Middx Hoxton
Emma " Wife Mar 31 " St Lukes
George Saddler Son 2 Middx Bromley
Fredk " " 8 Scholar " "
Eliza " Daur 8 mo " ".

[albert73]

Okay, so on the 1901 census Charles is age 31, born Snettisham, Norfolk. There is a transcription of his marriage record on FreeREG (they married 11 Feb 1899 at Ingoldisthorpe) and it says his father was Charles Frederick Sadler, a labourer. I think we need to find George Joseph Sadler on a census to see where his father came from.

I have walked around each of the cemeteries in Dersingham, Snettisham, Docking, Ingoldisthorpe and Hunstanton and found dozens of graves with the name of Sadler on the headstones. I think my ancestors around West Norfolk had been living and dying at least 500-years-ago.

[kiterunner]

If George Joseph's father was born in London around 1850, then any connection between the two families would have to be pretty far back, wouldn't it?

[albert73]

If George Joseph's father was born in London around 1850, then any connection between the two families would have to be pretty far back, wouldn't it?

The connection may be no further back than the 1850s. I learned as a child that the family had a few skeletons in their respective closets. On both sides, my parents had some form of skulduggery to hide. However, I am a lot wiser now that I had been 60-70-years ago. I can recall some conversations where names had been mentioned and I know that some kids had been born out of wedlock to members of my family. My mum claimed to have been born in Dersingham but in fact had started her life in Edmonton and went to the schools there until the age of fifteen. I spent most of my life living near uncles who I had never known existed.

[kiterunner]

Taking it back another generation, George Joseph Sadler's mother's maiden name is Foster, according to the online GRO birth index, with Henry Sadler marrying Emma Eliza Caroline Foster 27 Sep 1874 at St John, Hoxton (London):
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_195061-00363/2357500?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
Henry's father is John Sadler, traveller.

This looks like the family on the 1861 census:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/MDXRG9_200_202-0588/8753029?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
43 Baldwyn St, St Luke Finsbury, Middlesex
John Sadler Head Mar 41 Traveller Middlx Marylebone
Mary A Wife " 40 Widows Milliner " Bow
Mary A Daur Unm 18 " " " Shoreditch
Emma " " 16 Domestic " "
Henry Son 13 Errand Boy " "
Martha Daur 11 " ".

So Henry's father was born in London around 1820.

On the 1881 census, your great-grandfather Charles Sadler sr says he was born about 1838 at Ingoldisthorpe, and his wife's name is Charlot. The GRO birth index shows that Charles jr's mother's maiden name was Bush, so his parents' marriage is Charles Frederick Sadler / Charlotte Bush 5 May 1866 at Ingoldisthorpe, which is transcribed on FreeREG showing Charles sr's father to be Robert Sadler, labourer.

This is Robert's family on the 1851 census and Robert was born in Ingoldisthorpe about 1811 (as you say, the Sadlers go back a long way in that area):
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/NFKHO107_1827_1827-0324/5331355?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
Ingoldisthorpe
Robert Sadler Mar 39 Ag Lab Norfolk Ingoldisthorpe
Sarah Sadler Wife Married 37 Do Balnly(?)
Sarah Sadler Dau U 14 Sholer Do Ingoldisthorpe
Charels Sadler Son U 12 Sholer Do Ingoldisthorpe
Suasanna Sadler Dau U 9 Sholer Do Ingoldisthorpe
Hix Sadler Son U 7 Do Ingoldisthorpe
Margut Sadler Dau U 5 Do Ingoldisthorpe
George Sadler Son U 2 Do Ingoldisthorpe
Robert Sadler Father Widower 67 Ag Lab Do Ingoldisthorpe.

So we know that George Henry's great-grandfather (John) was born in London, and your mother's great-grandfather (Robert) was born in Norfolk, so even if it turns out that John and Robert were related, the closest that George Henry and your mother could be to each other would be fourth cousins - highly unlikely to know they were related even if they were.

[albert73]

I think that John Sadler had been an uncle of my mother. John died around 1960 so he will have been born around 1880 or before. John Sadler had lived in a cottage in Snettisham and he married Ethel. Did John have many brothers or sisters?

[Merry]

Here is your great-grandfather and his wife in 1881 with children including your Grandfather Charles Frederick Sadler aged 11 and his younger brother (your mother's uncle), John aged 3:

Ingoldisthorpe, Norfolk,

Charles Sadler Head married 42 labourer born Ingoldisthorpe
Charlot Sadler wife married 33 b Snettisham
Agnes Sadler dau 14 scholar b Ingoldisthorpe
Charles Sadler son 11 scholar b Snettisham
Annie Sadler dau 9 scholar b Ingoldisthorpe
Elizabeth Sadler dau 7 scholar b Ingoldisthorpe
John Sadler son 3 b Ingoldisthorpe
Sarah Sadler dau 1 b Ingoldisthorpe

I have looked at the 1871 and on that one the children were just Agnes and Charles (listed under his middle name, Frederick)

In 1891 there was an additional child, Florence aged 4.

As we know Charlot's maiden name was Bush I looked at the GRO indexes for birth registrations for this family, in case there were other children who had died or were not living with their parents:

SADLER, AGNES CHARLOTTE mmn BUSH
GRO Reference: 1866 D Quarter in DOCKING Volume 04B Page 300

SADLER, FREDERICK CHARLES mmn BUSH
GRO Reference: 1868 S Quarter in DOCKING Volume 04B Page 307

Frederick Charles died 1868 Q3 Docking aged 0 Vol 4b Page 233

SADLER, CHARLES FREDERICK mmn BUSH
GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in DOCKING Volume 04B Page 289 <<<<<<< your grandfather

SADLER, ANNIE MARIA mmn BUSH
GRO Reference: 1871 D Quarter in DOCKING Volume 04B Page 304

SADLER, ELIZABETH JANE mmn BUSH
GRO Reference: 1874 M Quarter in DOCKING Volume 04B Page 309

SADLER, SARAH mmn BUSH
GRO Reference: 1875 M Quarter in DOCKING Volume 04B Page 307

Sarah died 1875 Q2 Docking aged 0 Vol 4b Page 232

SADLER,JOHN WILLIAM mmn BUSH
GRO Reference: 1876 S Quarter in DOCKING Volume 04B Page 295

John William died 1877 Q1 Docking aged 0 Vol 4b Page 217

SADLER, JOHN WILLIAM mmn BUSH
GRO Reference: 1877 D Quarter in DOCKING Volume 04B Page 307 <<<<<< your mother's uncle John

SADLER, SARAH ANN mmn BUSH
GRO Reference: 1880 M Quarter in DOCKING Volume 04B Page 327

SADLER, HENRY GEORGE mmn BUSH
GRO Reference: 1881 J Quarter in DOCKING Volume 04B Page 321

Henry George died 1882 Q2 Docking aged 1 Vol 4b Page 203

SADLER, ELIZABETH mmn BUSH
GRO Reference: 1882 J Quarter in DOCKING Volume 04B Page 313

Elizabeth died 1882 Q2 Docking aged 0 Vol 4b Page 202

SADLER (mis-indexed as SADLEN), FLORENCE MAUD mmn BUSH
GRO Reference: 1884 S Quarter in DOCKING Volume 04B Page 327

Florence Maud died 1884 Q4 Docking aged 0 Vol 4b Page 229

SADLER, FLORENCE MAUD mmn BUSH
GRO Reference: 1886 S Quarter in DOCKING Volume 04B Page 321

So, you asked if John (John William b 1877) had many siblings. Yes he did, though several sadly died as babies. Also several named for deceased siblings which was very common at that time.

Next I'll see if I can confirm the other things you said about John.....

[Merry]

John William Sadler married Ethel Anker in Q4 1903 in Docking District.

On the 1911 census John says he is 31 a general labourer and born Ingoldisthorpe. His wife Ethel is aged 28 b Snettisham. They say they have been married 7 years and have two children (no dec'd children) - Georgie aged 7 and Jack aged 1 both born at Snittisham. They also have Ethel's mother in the house, Frances Anker aged 59. Their address is Pleasant Row, Snettisham.

On the 1939 register we have:

1 Pleasant Place , Docking R.D., Norfolk
John W Sadler dob 14 Oct 1877 Male Corn Porter Heavy Work Married
Ethel Sadler dob 12 Oct 1882 Female Housewife Married

John's dob fits with his birth registration in 1877.

This may be his death registration:

Deaths Dec 1959 SADLER John W 81 Fakenham 4b 422

and Ethel:

Deaths June 1962 SADLER Ethel 79 Downham 4b 398

[albert73]

Who had been the parents of Christine Sadler born on 1st November 1946 and died on 10th April 2010 please?

[kiterunner]

That one's more difficult, since she was born after the date of the 1939 Register, and doesn't come up on the probate search or on Deceased Online (burial and cremation records). And there are a few possible birth registrations. Was her surname definitely still Sadler when she died? (And was she born as a Sadler?) And do you have any more information about her, such as a middle name, or where she was born?

[albert73]

That one's more difficult, since she was born after the date of the 1939 Register, and doesn't come up on the probate search or on Deceased Online (burial and cremation records). And there are a few possible birth registrations. Was her surname definitely still Sadler when she died? (And was she born as a Sadler?) And do you have any more information about her, such as a middle name, or where she was born?

Middle name was Grace and she lived in Bedfordshire. She was not married.

[kiterunner]

The only trace I can find of her is on "unclaimed estates" websites, but there is no matching birth registration. (The unclaimed estates sites say she was born in Dunstable.)

[kiterunner]

Albert, I could be way off beam here, but I get the idea you are going through the Sadler entries in the "unclaimed estates" and trying to find out whether you are related to any of them? If so then I would advise you not to spend money on any certificates, wills, etc. unless you are already pretty certain you are related and you just need the documents to prove it (i.e. you knew them personally or we have managed to prove it on here.) Just worried you could be spending money on something which is not going to lead to an inheritance.

[albert73]

My daughter asked me to build a family tree months ago. My fathers side was easy but my mother had loads of relatives all named Sadler. I will leave my daughter to actually build her family tree but only supply names where I establish a relationship. As for claiming unclaimed Sadler estates, I see no prospect.

[kiterunner]

Phew.