View Full Version : John Marshall and Elizabeth Salmon
John Marshall, son of Rev. Edward Marshall and Elizabeth Horn, was born in Jamaica in 1797, and was christened there on 17 Jan 1798.
He is not to be confused with his cousin, Captain John Marshall, who married Jane Campbell in Calcutta in 1808, and later became the President of a bank in Cape Town, before retiring in about 1842.
There is a record that the one born in Jamaica married Elizabeth Salmon and had 5 daughters: Clara, Mary, Caroline, Emily and Dora, and that Clara married Col. H.A. Brett, who seems to have been a 'Deputy Judge Advocate' in Dublin in the 1860's.
There was a J. Marshall - probably the one I am trying to trace - who attend a family reunion in Devon in 1822. Captain John Marshall, his wife Jane, and their children were also there, on furlough from Cape Town.
Later another cousin, Clementina, writing her diary at Calcutta in around 1845, mentioned that 'cousin John Marshall' passed through that city then.
I am trying to connect the dots, and find some corroborating evidence to support my inference that the 1822 and 1845 references were to the man who was baptized in Jamaica in 1798.
kiterunner
11-02-17, 10:52
Can you give some details of what the record is which shows that the John Marshall who married Elizabeth Salmon is the one who was born in Jamaica, please? I can't find their marriage certificate online, only a mention in the banns register of Shustoke, Warwickshire: Licence John Marshall - Eliz Salmon (daughter of vicar) 2 Nov 1843.
MARSHALL, CLARA ELIZABETH
mmn SALMON
GRO Reference: 1844 S Quarter in THE CITY OF COVENTRY Volume 16 Page 372
Elizabeth and Clara and other daughters in 1861:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/SOMRG9_1682_1687-0583?pid=19184469&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db%3Duki1861%26indiv%3Dtry%26h%3D19184469&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=SOMRG9_1682_1687-0583
kiterunner
11-02-17, 11:31
Yes, I saw those but we can't tell from that whether it is the John Marshall from Jamaica.
This doesn't help straight away either, but the occupation of John (the one married to Eliz Salmon) was 'Surgeon in HM 84th Regiment of Foot' in 1846 (birth of dau Mary Emma in Madras which was her specified birthplace in 1871, staying with her mother in Hungerford Berks).
....before that he was in 65th Foot:
.......... Apr 1846 Daniel Armstrong retired upon half-pay. The vacancy in 84th Foot was filled by Surgeon John Marshall 65th Foot.
Have to go out shopping now.
kiterunner
11-02-17, 13:17
PCC will of John Marshall now residing at Bath Hampton in the County of Somerset Surgeon of Her Majesty's 31 Regiment ... unto my son John William Marshall my property in Jamaica which I may be entitled to as Heir at Law of my mother or otherwise... my wife Elizabeth Marshall... signed 2 Jul 1853, proved 6 Jul 1855.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/5111/40611_311570-00600/227020?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return#?imageId=40611_311570-00600
There seem to be quite a few John Marshalls who were surgeons so I'm not sure whether this is the right one! Shame he doesn't mention the names of his other children. The will suggests that John William Marshall was under 21 when it was written.
kiterunner
11-02-17, 13:33
There is a John William Marshall, son of John and Elizabeth, baptised 5 Apr 1848 at Madras, according to FamilySearch. If the image is on FMP it might say whether the father was a surgeon.
kiterunner
11-02-17, 13:51
9 Mar 1855 Morning Chronicle: At the hospital, Kulalee, on the Bosphorus, to which place he had been invalided from the Crimea, Staff-Surgeon (first class) JOHN MARSHALL, senior medical officer in charge of the second division of the British army before Sebastopol.
I don't know whether this is the same John Marshall as any of those mentioned above!
Thank you, all:
My original source for this information was 'Miscellanea Marescalliana' Vol. I' by George Marshall, published 1883 and a free eBook. On pp. 366 - 368 there are family trees of the Devonshire Marshalls, showing Rev. Edward Marshall marrying Elizabeth Horn in Jamaica and listing their children (including this John), John's wife and their children and grandchildren, whose names I listed.
That book only shows 5 daughters and no son, but the Will referencing property in Jamaica is impressive, and probably conclusive.
Slave history records indicate that the estate in Jamaica had been mortgaged or sold by 1838, but the family must have retained some residual claims or other property.
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/person/view/12285
kiterunner
11-02-17, 14:39
Could you please post a link to the free eBook of vol I, please? I can only find vol 2.
Going back to post #1, it looks pretty likely that this John Marshall was the one in Calcutta in 1845 as we know he was in India around then, but not so sure whether he would be the J Marshall in Devon in 1822.
There is a John William Marshall, son of John and Elizabeth, baptised 5 Apr 1848 at Madras, according to FamilySearch. If the image is on FMP it might say whether the father was a surgeon.
The father's occ is 'Surgeon in HM 84th Regiment of Foot', the same as the bap for Mary Emma in 1846
kiterunner
11-02-17, 15:10
That's good - it seems to hang together, then.
When their third child, Mary Ann Caroline, was born in Madras in 1850 John's occ says Surgeon of HM 15th Hussars. This occ was repeated for the record of Emily Marshall b 1851 in Bangalore, Madras. No sign of Dora anywhere.....
............Ah, Dora was born in Wales!
MARSHALL, DORA SOPHIA
SALMON
GRO Reference: 1854 M Quarter in BRECKNOCK Volume 11B Page 101
In 1871 she is with her grandfather, George Salmon, and some of her sisters.
I already found Elizabeth and Mary Emma in 1871 as visitors in Hungerford, Berkshire (mentioned earlier)
Here's Dora etc :
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/SOMRG10_2476_2481-0250/14959622?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dRAw7060%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1871%26so%3d 2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3ddora%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dmarshall%26gsln_ x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1854%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26c pxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26 uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
I am trying to reduce the timeframe for JM's death as his age at death could prove useful. Kate said his will was signed 2 Jul 1853 and proved 6 July 1855. He doesn't seem to have died at Bathampton (at least, no reg in Bath district) It looks as if he was alive for Dora's birth:
Morning Post 16 January 1854
MARSHALL - On the 12th inst., at Brecon, the lady of John Marshall Esq., surgeon, 31st Regiment, of a daughter.
There's no death reg for him in Brecknock either....
I believe this link should get you to vol. I
https://books.google.com/books?id=M1kBAAAAQAAJ
When I referred to pp. 366 - 368, those are the pages in the downloaded PDF. In the printed material those pages are pp. 19 - 21 in an Appendix entitled 'Administrations in P.C.C'
Tim
kiterunner
11-02-17, 16:22
Tim, that link doesn't take me to an eBook or download - it says "No eBook available".
kiterunner
11-02-17, 16:23
I am trying to reduce the timeframe for JM's death as his age at death could prove useful. Kate said his will was signed 2 Jul 1853 and proved 6 July 1855. He doesn't seem to have died at Bathampton (at least, no reg in Bath district) It looks as if he was alive for Dora's birth:
Morning Post 16 January 1854
MARSHALL - On the 12th inst., at Brecon, the lady of John Marshall Esq., surgeon, 31st Regiment, of a daughter.
There's no death reg for him in Brecknock either....
He might be listed in the "Monthly Military Obituary" which appeared in various newspapers in those days, but I'm not sure how to search for that on either FMP or the British Newspaper Archive! If he is listed in one of those, I think it would say something like J Marshall, surgeon.
Further to Kiterunner's concern about identifying the J. Marshall in Devon, that comes from a document recording a remarkable event in August, 1822, where 40 members of the Marshall and Bentall families gathered to celebrate the 80th birthday of Dorothy Marshall (nee Chadder), whose descendants cover two pages in that book. All her 9 children, 6 spouses and 23 grandchildren then living were there and signed their names, including Captain John Marshall, her son, and Clementina Marshall, her granddaughter, who later married Edward Benthall, Dorothy's grandson.
In addition there were two other Marshall signatures, Wm Marshall and J. Marshall. Based on the family tree, it is fairly clear that Wm Marshall must have been Dorothy's nephew, married to Louisa Bentall; and the only realistic candidate for the 'J. Marshall' seems to be this other nephew, who was then referred to 30+ years later by Clementina as 'cousin John Marshall'.
The date of the death in the Bosphorus seems to tie to the Will proved in England. The only mystery now is what happened to the son.
Tim
He might be listed in the "Monthly Military Obituary" which appeared in various newspapers in those days, but I'm not sure how to search for that on either FMP or the British Newspaper Archive! If he is listed in one of those, I think it would say something like J Marshall, surgeon.
Thanks. The frustrating thing is there's always a field marshal dying and fmp search doesn't care I'm asking for two Ls! I'm still looking at them though....
kiterunner
11-02-17, 18:21
The date of the death in the Bosphorus seems to tie to the Will proved in England.
Maybe, but there are a lot of John Marshalls around.
kiterunner
11-02-17, 18:34
The Bath Burial Index shows Elizabeth's grave, and two of her daughters were also buried there:
https://www.batharchives.co.uk/cemeteries/st-marys-churchyard-bathwick/elizabeth-marshall
London Gazette
War Office 3rd June 1853
31st Foot, Surgeon John Marshall, from 15th Light Dragoons to be Surgeon, vice Crosse, appointed to 11th Light Dragoons. Dated 3rd June 1853.
Ah, here we are, this is a potential link to the man on the Bosphorus.....
London Gazette
War Office 15th August 1854
HOSPITAL STAFF
To be Staff Surgeons of the First Class
Surgeon John Marshall, from the 31st Foot.
Dated 15th August 1854
Bolton Chronicle 14 July 1855
Officers' Widows' Pensions
The following is a return "of all pensions granted to the widows of officers who have lost their lives in any branch of Her Majesty's service during the present war in the East; stating the rank of the deceased officer and the amount granted".
..............John Marshall, Staff Surgeon, £50.........
kiterunner
11-02-17, 19:01
Right, so it looks as though the Bosphorus death is the right one then, doesn't it? Well done.
9 Mar 1855 Morning Chronicle: At the hospital, Kulalee, on the Bosphorus, to which place he had been invalided from the Crimea, Staff-Surgeon (first class) JOHN MARSHALL, senior medical officer in charge of the second division of the British army before Sebastopol.
I don't know whether this is the same John Marshall as any of those mentioned above!
Bell's Life in London and Sporting Chronicle 04 March 1855 reports his death as the first entry in a list of hundreds of men:
DEATHS AT THE HOSPITALS IN THE EAST, The following is the return of deaths at Scutari, Kukulee and on board the different transports on the way from Balaklava.
OFFICERS: First Class Staff Surgeon John Marshall Feb 10th fever.........at Kukulee.
Right, so it looks as though the Bosphorus death is the right one then, doesn't it? Well done.
Looks better now!
The problem is I was hoping his age at death would also tie in with the birth in Jamaica, but now we don't have that.
kiterunner
11-02-17, 19:14
Oh, wait a minute, I found this in an online book Roll of Commissioned Officers in the Medical Service of the British Army:
1833.
4339 John Marshall. A.S. Staff, 29 Mar 1833. S. Staff, 2nd Class, 30 Aug 1842: 65 F 2 Sept 1845: 84 F 3 Apl 1846: 15 Dns 2 Feb 1849: 31 F 3 Jun 1853: Staff, 1st Class, 15 Aug 1854. d on active service at Scutari, 10 Feb 1855. b 5 Feb 1809.
https://archive.org/stream/rollofcommission00ande#page/290/mode/2up
(page 290 of 638)
The "explanation of abbreviations" (page lxviii onwards) says that b = born, so this person doesn't seem to fit with the Jamaican John Marshall after all!
FMP has a transcription of the John Marshall marriage at Shustoke in 1843 but I don't have a sub to view it. It's just possible it might have his age and / or father's name on the transcription. I never managed to find an image anywhere apart from that mention of the licence.
b 5 Feb 1809.
lol!!
FMP has a transcription of the John Marshall marriage at Shustoke in 1843 but I don't have a sub to view it.
I'll have a look..........
Staffordshire, Dioceses of Lichfield & Coventry marriage allegations and bonds, 1636-1893
1st Nov 1843
John Marshall is described on the marriage bond as "of the parish of St John, Coventry in the county of Warwickshire, gentleman, bachelor of full age of twenty one years and upwards"
Elizabeth Salmon is of the parish of Shustoke in the County of Warwickshire, spinster of full age of twenty one years and upwards.
.
The transcription of the marriage entry has no helpful info at all, just their names, date (2nd Nov) and the parish name. Nothing else.
All is not lost. I looked again at the baptismal records in Jamaica. There was another John Marshall baptised at St. Andrew, Jamaica, on 14 July 1809, with parents Edward and Elizabeth Marshall.
The question now is whether these are the same Edward ad Elizabeth who owned the Mount Moses estate, or another couple with the same name.
Of course there were two others as well in 1806 and 1807, but in the search I ran their parents' names were not mentioned.
kiterunner
11-02-17, 21:35
The 1809 John Marshall's baptism says son of the Revd Edward & Elizabeth Marshall, born 5th February 1809:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939F-DZDR-2?mode=g&i=6&cc=1827268
The 1809 John Marshall's baptism says son of the Revd Edward & Elizabeth Marshall, born 5th February 1809:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939F-DZDR-2?mode=g&i=6&cc=1827268
So a perfect fit for date! :D
Dear Kiterunner and Merry: you two are amazing, to have pulled all this together in 24 hours. Thank you so much.
I think it is clear now that the John Marshall who married Elizabeth Salmon was the one born in 1809 in Jamaica, the son of Rev. Edward (as shown in the family tree in George Marshall's book) and who was the Army Surgeon, most of whose children were born at Madras, and who died of fever in Turkey in 1855 after being wounded at Sebastopol. That is a story about the challenges of Empire that speaks for the ages.
Logically, this suggests that the first John Marshall, born in 1796 must have died before 1809, so that his parents re-used the name. I have looked for a death certificate, but have not found a site that has death records from that time.
George Marshall was a formidable genealogist, but the fact that he ordered the various children of Edward and Elizabeth to make it look as though John was born before 1801 may have been because he was also working from imperfect data. He also may have missed the existence of that John's son, John William, if he died before the 1861 census.
I think also that Clementina's diary reference of a visit of 'cousin John Marshall' to Calcutta in around 1845 must refer to this cousin. He was not that far away and there was no other cousin of that name of a plausible age.
But this all casts legitimate doubt on my inference that the 'J. Marshall' who was at Dorothy's big party in August 29, 1822 was this same John. He would have been just 13, and it is unlikely that he would have been there without a brother or sister.
George Marshall's family tree does include another John Marshall, younger brother of Rev. Edward - who was dead by then - and his brother William (who was there at the party although his wife and 6 children were still in Mauritius and she would die there 7 months later - that is another story). The sisters of these brothers, according to one account, may have been models for two of the sisters in Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice.
But I have searched for any information about this other John's birth or death without success, so I had assumed that he died very young. He must have been born and baptized in Exeter, sometime after 1780. You have helped so much that I don't want to press your patience, but if you can help close out the possibility that he was alive and well in 1822, I would appreciate it.
Tim
Exeter in Devon or Exeter in Jamaica?
Just before we leave the John b 1797.... there are two burials for a John Marshall in St James' Jamaica dated 16 Apr 1798 and 26 Oct 1800 (no further info on FS transcripts).
Also I noticed Edward and Elizabeth had a dau named Dora (not a name I'd associate with this time period!), so it was nice to see John and Elizabeth had presumably named their last child after her.
Assuming you meant Devon (as Exeter in Jamaica seems to be a field!), I'm unsure of who this John we are looking for is the child of? You said he was born after 1780, so.....
John the son of John and Mary bap 30 Aug 1783 at St John's Exeter.
I saw there was a PCC will for a Rev John Marshall in 1799 which mentions sons Edward (married to Elizabeth), William (under 21) and John (under 21) (plus several other children), and wondered if that 's the same family,
I'm going to wait for Kate to come along and tell me you have already told us who the parents should be for this John!
Back later........
kiterunner
12-02-17, 09:22
I'm going to wait for Kate to come along and tell me you have already told us who the parents should be for this John!
I don't think so. I assume it would be in the book, but I never did manage to find an online copy.
I assume it would be in the book, but I never did manage to find an online copy.
...and I never looked!
The will of Mary Marshall of Exeter, the widow of John, had probate granted in 1808. She mentions the following children:
Edward and Edward's wife Eliza
Charles
William
Eliza
Mary (wife of Richard Collins)
Anna Sophia (wife of Richard Buller)
granddaughter, Eliza Horne Marshall, dau of Edward <<< this confirms it's the right family as there is this bap:
Elizabeth Horn Marshall
Jamaica, Church of England Parish Register Transcripts, 1664-1880
christening: 8 December 1795 Kingston, Jamaica father: Edward Marshall mother: Elizabeth
Mary also mentioned granddaughter Mary Marshall, dau of Edward who was bap 4 July 1799 in Kingston, Jamaica. No mention of grandson John b 1797 as he presumably died around the turn of the century as I mentioned in an earlier post.
The problem is, Mary doesn't seem to mention her son John (b 1783) who we wanted at that party in the 1820s. Had he died??
This is absolutely the correct family. I think this confirms that the John Marshall baptised in Exeter in 1783 and son of Rev. John and Mary Marshall (nee Hawtrey) must have been dead by 1808.
An article written about 30 years ago by Professor R.H. Coase about his brother William, (who was baptised in the same church in 1780) says William had two brothers, both of whom became clerics. Those were Edward and Charles, he also doesn't mention John.
So by elimination, I am concluding that it was the future surgeon who was at Totnes in August 1822, aged 13. The most likely explanation is he had been sent back to England to go to school.
Thank you both again.
Tim
Hi
I found these posts yesterday, and was so intrigued by them, that I joined the Forum.
I am currently transcribing letters by and about my gg grandfather, Charles Henry Marshall (1818-1874), son of Capt. William M. (1780-1828), son of Rev. John M. (1728-1799).
Over the years I have struggled with various Marshalls, including Rev. Edward Marshall (born 1769), so I was interested in seeing what Tim and others had to say about the family - including about Dr. John Marshall (1809-1855). As part of some previous research into William Henry Drake (1812-1882), the father-in-law of Charles Henry Marshall, I came across references to Dr. John M. in letters written from Balaklava by Drake to his wife when he was serving as a commissary in the Crimean war. I thought I would give these extracts here:
13 Nov 1854: Dr. J Marshall arrived here a few days ago, I have done all I could to assist him he said Mr. W. had refered [sic] him to me – The Doctor is attached to the 2nd Division
17 Nov 1854: Dr. Marshall lost some £30 or £40 worth of things, by the loss of the St: Prince – He has gone up to join the 2nd Division He does not like this work & will try & get back to England as soon as he can
7 Dec 1854: I saw Dr. Marshall well the day before yesterday
22 Jan 1855: Dr. Marshall came down Sick from Camp two or three days back & is living on board Ship he is much better he says today
29 Jan 1855: Dr. Marshall is very unwell on board the Bucephalus one of our Store Ships lying just off my house
16 Feb 1855: We have since my last had very fine warm weather & no rain – the place is drying up a little & things look better but there is Still very much Sickness in Camp. Dr. Marshall has gone Sick to Scutari & will I imagine manage to get home from there
19 Feb 1855: I have not heard anything about Dr. Marshall since he left this for Scutari sick
As we know Dr. John Marshall died on 10 Feb 1855.
I have been very pleased to be able to find out just who Dr. John Marshall was - considering Drake's daughter, Charlotte Augusta Dring Drake, married Dr. John's first cousin, Charles Henry Marshall, in 1857. It is clear from Drake's letters from Balaklava that he and his wife knew of Dr. John before they both went to the Crimea - otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned him - but I am not quite sure who the Mr. W would have been who had referred Dr. John to Drake. Does anyone have any ideas about that?
I am also intrigued by Tim mentioning the document about the family reunion in Devon in August 1822 for Dorothy Chadder's 80th birthday, with so many of the family attending. You mention the Wm. Marshall as possibly being Dorothy's nephew, William (1780-1828), who married Louisa Bentall (1783-1823). I am not sure that it could have been him. I think he was in Mauritius at the time. His son, Thornton, was born on 6 March 1822 (as far as I am aware, in Mauritius), and Louisa died in Port Louis, Mauritius on 25 March 1823. Is it possible that the Wm. Marshall could be William (1807-1885), son of Dr. Richard Marshall (1776-1859) and Jane Farwell (~1777-1815), who later married Mary Benthall (1823-1907)? I would be very interested to see a copy of this document, if you would be willing to share it with me.
You also mention Prof. Coase's biographies about the family of Alfred Marshall. I have found some errors in his work relating to statements he makes about Charles Henry Marshall and the wider Marshall family, and am currently also working on correcting these errors.
From what I've found about John Marshall (chr. 30 Aug 1783) - brother of Capt. William Marshall (1780-1828), son of Rev. John Marshall (1728-1799) and Mary Hawtrey (1743-1807) - it seems that John Marshall died about 1810 (not before 1808). His will was dated 7 Dec 1809, and probate dated 8 Nov 1810.
Looking forward to finding out more about the Marshalls.
All the best, Megan
Wow!
We have much to discuss. Thank you. I will reply in more detail by email, but you have answered probably almost all of my questions about these John Marshalls.
Tim
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