View Full Version : Albert Baker & Reginald Hawker
I'm trying to tie up a few census-based loose ends on my trees, and I'm a bit stumped with these two chaps:
Albert Baker
b. 1884 in Hittisleigh, Devon
d. 1954 in Leeds, Yorkshire
BAKER, ALBERT mmn HARRIS
GRO Reference: 1885 J Quarter in TIVERTON Volume 05B Page 425
1891 ???
1901 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/SOMRG13_2339_2340-0376/12620584?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/91052939/person/83022270968/facts/citation/920227523888/edit/record)
1911 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_03004_0485_03/41506811?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/91052939/person/83022270968/facts/citation/343919539330/edit/record)
Reginald Hawker
b. 1885 in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
d. 1926 in Wallingford, Berkshire
HAWKER, REGINALD mmn not recorded
GRO Reference: 1885 M Quarter in CHELTENHAM Volume 06A Page 462
1891 ???
1901 ???
1911 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_02994_0141_03/41508811?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/91052939/person/83022271996/facts/citation/343919571752/edit/record)
There are obviously other Albert Bakers and Reginald Hawkers, but I think I've managed to disqualify them by comparing with other census records.
I have the marriage certificate images for both men on Ancestry; Albert Baker's father is given as William, and Reginald Hawker's as Richard. I've tried to use this information to work backwards and find them, but no luck so far. Also, Reginald is not living with Arthur John Jeenes (a fellow boarder from Cheltenham) on earlier census dates.
Any ideas? I'd really appreciate some help here.
I've only read about Albert so far. Have you tried looking for other Baker/Harris births around 1884 in Tiverton district in the hope of a sibling being easier to find? I realise it's a common name combo.
Might Reg be in the house of a step-father and so hiding under a different surname until he left home? I wonder who Richard Hawker is, if Reg was illegitimate!
Also, Reginald is not living with Arthur John Jeenes (a fellow boarder from Cheltenham) on earlier census dates.
Funny you should say that, because he actually is!!! lolol :d see 1891 here\;
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=RAw6328&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=uki1891&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsfn=reg*&gsfn_x=1&msbdy=1885&msbdy_x=1&msbdp=2&gskw=cheltenham&gskw_x=1&cp=0&catbucket=rstp&MSAV=2&uidh=672&pcat=35&fh=8&h=24862108&recoff=&ml_rpos=9
Elizabeth Annie Hawker m John James Jeenes in 1886 in Cheltenham RD.
Haha, good spot Merry!
EDIT: Any luck with Reginald in 1901?
kiterunner
30-01-17, 21:54
Albert Baker
b. 1884 in Hittisleigh, Devon
d. 1954 in Leeds, Yorkshire
BAKER, ALBERT mmn HARRIS
GRO Reference: 1885 J Quarter in TIVERTON Volume 05B Page 425
If that's his birth registration, then it's unlikely that he was born in 1884.
kiterunner
30-01-17, 21:56
Possible William Baker / Eliza Harris marriage Jul-Sep 1879 Tiverton district, the other two spouses in the set being Elizabeth Richards and Frederick Southcott.
kiterunner
30-01-17, 22:10
Don't know whether you already have Elizabeth and Ethel from the 1901 census (for Albert) in 1891 - he isn't with them:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/SOMRG12_1936_1938-0158/14263677?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
Elizabeth is down as Elizabeth Ann Becker / Gregory on her marriage to William Lidyard 1895 on Bath BMD.
kiterunner
30-01-17, 22:24
Possible William Baker / Eliza Harris marriage Jul-Sep 1879 Tiverton district, the other two spouses in the set being Elizabeth Richards and Frederick Southcott.
Oh, there is a Frederick Southcott with wife Eliza in Tiverton in 1881, so maybe that's not the right marriage for Albert's parents.
kiterunner
30-01-17, 22:27
Ooer, just spotted Albert's wife's maiden name.
kiterunner
30-01-17, 22:34
Hmm, FMP has the baptism of an Albert Baker 27 May 1855 at Tiverton, son of Albert and Mary Ann, and there is an Albert Baker / Mary Ann Harris marriage Apr-Jun 1883 in Bridgwater district. So maybe that 1885 birth reg isn't your Albert?
I was just going by the 1911 census info, Kate. It could well be a different record.
Some info that may help:
Marriage (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/4779/40815_1831109333_1353-00020/2558655?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/91052939/person/83022270968/facts/citation/343919539332/edit/record)
Adoption (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1219/miuk1914e_124225-00274/39441?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/91052939/person/83022270968/facts/citation/343919540853/edit/record) (him as parent, not child)
Ooer, just spotted Albert's wife's maiden name.
Is your Ooer because you saw it was Montgomery from the marriage cert or because you saw it was Baker according to his army record?!!
Hittisleigh is in Crediton district not Tiverton. That's not helping as I don't see a birth reg there.
There's an Albert Gregory aged 7 probably the illegitimate son of Mary Jane Gregory on the 1891 census. He was born in Exeter district and the 1891 census says he was born in Exeter (as does the 1901 for Albert Baker), but they were living with Mary's father at Hittisleigh. Trouble is, Mary doesn't seem to have gone on to marry Wm Baker. (not that she had to of course, but for proof.....)
EDIT: I can't see Alfred Gregory born Exeter after the 1891 census and he didn't die with that name between 1891 and 1901 (there were two Albert Gregorys of approx. the right age who did die, but eliminated those) so that's promising. Mary Gregory was still single and with her father in Hittisleigh in 1901. In Q2 1901 she married the lodger, John Cooling. I really wanted John Cooling to be a lodging house keeper in 1911 but he's an army pensioner!
There is a William Baker living at Hittisleigh in 1881. I think I found him in 1891 too, when he was still single, and at the time dismissed him because I didn't realise we were looking at the wrong birth reg. So that's another one you could look harder at. I don't know when he died. <<<<<<< EDIT Ignore this man, I think! See below...
I've just realised Mrs Elizabeth Lidyard was born in Hittisleigh. Albert is a lodger in her house in 1891 and she was late Baker going by the name of her husband's step dau, Bath BMD says Wm Robert Lidyard m Elizabeth Becker (not Baker) formerly Gregory in 1895. Elizabeth Ann Gregory m Franz Becker in 1886 in Exeter District, so after Albert Gregory's birth. So, is Elizabeth the mother or her sister Mary Jane or another Gregory family member? Much depends on what Wm Lidyard was thinking when he said Step-dau for Ethel F Baker (reg Ethel Frances Becker Weymouth 1887), but Lodger for Albert. Maybe you can find Albert's bap (no more time for me now), otherwise you would have to get the Gregory birth cert.
Baker/Becker may biologically be nothing to do with Albert and Wm, lodging house keeper, is probably fiction. If Eliz turns out to be his mother then that may all be part fact! Find Franz in 1891 perhaps? (if he's alive then!)
kiterunner
31-01-17, 07:57
Is your Ooer because you saw it was Montgomery from the marriage cert or because you saw it was Baker according to his army record?!!
The former.
kiterunner
31-01-17, 08:22
This might be Reginald in 1901:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/GLSRG13_2465_2466-0017/13328002?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dNKb13639%26_phstart%3dsuc cessSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1901%26gss% 3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dreg*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1886%26msbdy_x% 3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26gskw%3dchelt*%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSA V%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh %3d10%26fsk%3dBEFTMzMIgAAehgCfhYc-61-&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Franz Becker died in 1888 (Bath) and I can't see him on earlier censuses (b 1845ish).
In 1891 Elizabeth Becker and her daughter are living in Walcot, Bath and Elizabeth's occ is hotel linen keeper, so I suppose it's possible her late husband was a lodging house keeper or similar.
Here is the full birth reg index entry for Albert:
GREGORY, ALBERT JAMES ACKLAND mmn -
GRO Reference: 1884 D Quarter in EXETER Volume 05B Page 103
What's the betting his biological father was named James Ackland or similar? :)
I was a bit slow to consider looking at the baptism for Ethel Frances Becker to see her father's occ which turns out to be musician (it's written 'mucian' so I'm making an assumption!).
I don't remember if I already said I can't find a bap for Albert.
The marriage entry image of Franz Becker and Elizabeth Ann Gregory is on FMP, 20 June 1886. He was a 42 year old widower and musician of St Mary's Weymouth, the son of Florenz Becker dec'd (musician). She was a 27 year old spinster of St David's Exeter (the marriage was at St David's), the dau of John Gregory, carpenter. The witnesses were her sister, Mary Jane Gregory and W B Rawdon.
I'm not sure about this next bit, but in 1881 there is Frank Becker, musician, a little older than expected with wife Susanna and some children here:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/SOMRG11_2434_2438-0668/18790149?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1881%26so%3d2%26pcat%3dROO T_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsln%3dbecker%26gsln_x%3d1%26gskw%3dmusician%26gsk w_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp%26 MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
They are in Bath so would seem very possible for Frank/z to be the man who later married Elizabeth Gregory and knocked off a few years for her.
However, if that's right, he wasn't a widower as here is Susanna and her children (following page) in 1891:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/DEVRG12_1776_1778-0367/2758644?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1891%26so%3d2%26pcat%3dROO T_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsln%3dbec ker%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1875%26msbdy_x%3d1%26ms bdp%3d5%26gskw%3ddevon%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26c p%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=DEVRG12_177 6_1778-0366
She says she is a widow, which would be correct as Franz died in 1888. Her youngest child was reg in Q3 1886, so after Franz married Miss Gregory. Interestingly, she was a lodging house keeper!
When Franz married the first time (to Susannah Sanders in Newton Abbot district in 1877) he was recorded as Frank William Becker and also as William Becker. This probably means he gave his name as one of those combinations, but signed the other. Anyway... a William! lol
This might be Reginald in 1901:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/GLSRG13_2465_2466-0017/13328002?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dNKb13639%26_phstart%3dsuc cessSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1901%26gss% 3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dreg*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1886%26msbdy_x% 3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26gskw%3dchelt*%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSA V%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh %3d10%26fsk%3dBEFTMzMIgAAehgCfhYc-61-&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Thanks, Kate. I found that entry a few days ago, but wasn't aware of the Jeenes connection at that time. Looking at the handwriting, it does seem to be Jeenes mistranscribed as James.
That's Reginald sorted, then!
Merry,
So the youngest son on your 1891 census would seem to be:
BECKER, ALBERT SAMUEL mmn. SANDERS
GRO Reference: 1886 S Quarter in BARNSTAPLE UNION Volume 05B Page 46
But we don't think this is Albert Baker?
EDIT: No, it isn't. Found a death, etc.
So do we think this (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/DEVRG12_1759_1761-0173?pid=2677219&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwnR6875%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsfn%3DAlbert%26gsfn_x%3D 0%26gsln%3DGregory%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D1884%26m sbpn__ftp%3DExeter,%2520Devon,%2520England%26msbpn %3D83072%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5261%257C83072%257C0%257C0%257C%26cpxt%3D1%26cp %3D11%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pcat%3D35%26h%3D26 77219%26dbid%3D6598%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D4&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=wnR6875&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) is Albert in 1891?
The Franz Becker thing is a different line of thought, though...?
Also, bear in mind that Mary Jane may not be his mother. They are at the same house in 1891, but she could be an aunt or an in-law or something. Doesn't help us, I know. :D
So do we think this (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/DEVRG12_1759_1761-0173?pid=2677219&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwnR6875%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsfn%3DAlbert%26gsfn_x%3D 0%26gsln%3DGregory%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D1884%26m sbpn__ftp%3DExeter,%2520Devon,%2520England%26msbpn %3D83072%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5261%257C83072%257C0%257C0%257C%26cpxt%3D1%26cp %3D11%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pcat%3D35%26h%3D26 77219%26dbid%3D6598%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D4&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=wnR6875&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) is Albert in 1891?
The Franz Becker thing is a different line of thought, though...?
Also, bear in mind that Mary Jane may not be his mother. They are at the same house in 1891, but she could be an aunt or an in-law or something. Doesn't help us, I know. :D
Yes, I'm sure that is Albert in 1891.
I don't understand what you mean about Franz Becker being a different line of thought? It's the same line of thought as far as I'm concerned!
We don't know Mary Jane is his mother, no. His mother might be Elizabeth Ann or another unknown sister, but if he is Elizabeth's it's slightly odd (only slightly!) that Elizabeth's husband has called Albert a lodger rather than a step-son in 1891. Albert may have adopted the name Baker (as a corruption of Becker) either because his mother, Elizabeth Ann had been married to a Becker or because he had lived in the same house as that family for a period, who knows?!!
So the Albert James Ackland Gregory birth is Albert Baker, and he's just dropped his middle names in later life, we think one of John Gregory's daughters was his mother, and at some point he's adopted Baker as a form of Becker?
But Franz Becker was probably his step-father?
But Franz Becker was probably his step-father?
Only if Elizabeth Ann was his mother.
Unless you can find a baptism for him I can't think of another way to work out who his mother was apart from the birth cert.
So the Albert James Ackland Gregory birth is Albert Baker, and he's just dropped his middle names in later life, we think one of John Gregory's daughters was his mother, and at some point he's adopted Baker as a form of Becker?
Yes to the first two points and a probable yes to the last part as I don't really understand why he would use Baker not Becker, unless it was to save people asking how to spell it? (obviously they hadn't heard of Boris!)
Have you got Albert's dob from 1939? I wondered if it matched the Dec Q 1884 birth reg? (if you remain unconvinced!)
Have to go and sort out dinner now... back later....
7th November, 1884. His wife's is 15th May, 1883 (it says 1884 on the Register, but her birth was registered in 1883).
Well that fits - just really annoying I can't trace a bap.
Is this Baker couple to do with your Horne tree?
Oh yes, I remember now I've read it!
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showpost.php?p=318246&postcount=30
Yep, that's right. Albert married May Montgomery, and they adopted May's niece Evelyn Horne (afterwards Baker), who was the daughter of George Percy/Percival George Horne. :)
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