View Full Version : Beautiful India Help needed please
Difficulty finding Ancestors in India/ Burma or even on the beautiful Andemon Islands, is there anybody who is familiar with these counties please?
kiterunner
26-01-17, 21:43
Hi Booboo and welcome to the forum.
Can you post up some details of who you are looking for, then it might be easier to try to help you.
Thank you for welcoming me.
Yes I seem to have hit a brick wall with the Anglo Indian/ Burmese side of my family tree!
Im finding it all totally fascinating but its all so sketchy and with no living relatives to ask i only have what info my mum told me about to go on.
My Grandfather was called Walter Burn b, 6/5/1884 in Rangoon he was an Engineer for a rubber company and later on they owned a Rubber plantation, the Japanese took over the plantation and he fell off a Bull cart and apparently broke his kneck and My Grandmother was called Ruby Van der beek b 10/7/1888 in Moosoorie, Bengal.
They had 4 children called Olive who was the eldest and had died but i cant find anything about her, Beryl, she had something to do with the Goverment in India but cant find anything about her time before she got married and came over here, Frederick b, 1914 in Moulmien, Bengal he was in the Gurkers and was an Interpreter for Colonel Whingate, dont know who he married or even if there is any family alive he apparently had a Motel on one of the Andemon Islands cant find anything on him,Then there was my mum!
My Grandmother had to leave India/Burma due to contracting Malaria whilst pregnant with my mum and ive found her name on a passenger list 1928 she left her husband and 3 children for better climates and im sure with great intentions to go back after the birth but then the war broke out and Walter had that accident and died so she never went back. I have managed to trace Backwards to quite away which is great considering the japanese apparently burned alot of documents. Its hard being so far away with so little knowledge to go on.
kiterunner
28-01-17, 15:32
Sorry, but I'm still not clear what information you already have, and what you're trying to find? I assume that you already have details of Walter and Ruby's birth or baptism records as you say you have traced quite far back? If not then let me know as I did find those. But the only one of their children whose births I could find was Frederick Walter Burn born 1916 Moulmein, Bengal, baptised 1916 or 1918, father's surname Burn, in the British India Office Births & Baptisms on FMP, but there is only a transcription, not the full record.
Is the 1928 passenger list the one where Ruby left India / Burma, or is it a later one? Where and when was your mother born? Do you know who Beryl married, and when you say she "came over here", is that the UK, or where, please? It might be easier for us to find more information when we know that much.
kiterunner
28-01-17, 15:38
Though here is one thing I managed to find, remembering that Ruby is Ruby Eileen on her birth record:
National Probate Calendar 1979:
BURN, Ruby Ileen of 39 The Ridings Surbiton Surrey died 9 September 1979 Probate London 21 November £40048.
The death registration entry for Ruby Ileen Burn has dob as 10 Jul 1888 so definitely the right person.
If you order a copy of her will, it might have information about her children / grandchildren. This is the site to order it from:
https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate
kiterunner
28-01-17, 16:07
And if you have access to the 1939 Register on Findmypast, Ruby is indexed as Ruby I Burew in Surbiton, with Olga Pocock born 1903 and Ileen H Poulter born 1929. (I haven't viewed the image, just the free transcription.)
Olga M Pocock died Oct-Dec 1961 Surrey North, age 58. National Probate Calendar 1962: POCOCK Olga Mercia of 39 The Ridings Surbiton Surrey spinster died 19 December 1961 Administration (with will) London 13 April to Ruby Ileen Burn widow. Effects £3939 9s.
I assume that the surname Poulter was added to the 1939 Register page after the 1950 marriage of Ileen Hilda Burn, and that Ileen was your mother? Her date of birth is 3 Jul 1929 on both the 1939 Register and her death registration. Her birth was registered Jul-Sep 1929 in Kingston district, Surrey, MMN Vander Beek, so that answers some of my questions!
Hi Kiterunner
Thank you so much for searching for me and im sorry to not have been very clear.
Im looking for Olive Burn? My mum told me that Olive was the eldest
Beryl Burn b, 28/5/1914 Moulmien. and please ignore what I said about her coming to the uk, i got mixed up with someone else.
Frederick Burn b, 1916 Moulmien.
Im trying to understand if at all possible about what happened with these three, Fred and Beryl would have beeen 12/13 when my Grandmother left them to travel to the uk in 1928.
Infact i might not be able to trace Frederick as I suppose he could still be alive, slim chance but a possibility.
I suppose at some stage im hoping to find relatives out there somewhere which might be able to fill gaps and stories of what might have happened during those years.
Everything that you did find is correct and the right people.
kiterunner
28-01-17, 21:46
Booboo, are you going to order a copy of Ruby's will to see whether it mentions Olive, Beryl, and / or Frederick?
kiterunner
28-01-17, 21:53
Right, now I see Beryl's birth / baptism record on FMP in the British India Office records, Beryl Jane Burn born 28 May 1914 Moulmein, Bengal, father's surname Burn, baptism 1914 or 1918. Still can't find Olive's birth record.
kiterunner
28-01-17, 22:09
The FIBIS website shows that Frederick Walter Burn was a 2nd Lieutenant in the Army of Burma Reserve of Officers (1940-1947), London Gazette date 19 Mar 1943.
kiterunner
28-01-17, 22:19
And from the London Gazette of 25 Jul 1947, Emergency Commissions - the undermentioned officers relinquish their commns: 1st May 1947: Capt. F W Burn (EC 8437) on being appt. to a T.A. Commn.
kiterunner
28-01-17, 22:30
You may have seen this already, but in case you haven't, Frederick (F W Burn) is in a photo on this website:
http://www.angloburmeselibrary.com/the-war-against-japan.html
There are 17 in the front row but it only lists 16. I guess Frederick is the one fifth from the right?
If you google for "F W Burn" Burma a few more similar items come up.
Hi, No need to order the will as the house was left in a trust for me and my brothers.
My nan when she came over here lived at 39 the ridings, which eventually was our family home.
My nan moved in with Trevor Irvin Pocock who i think might have been her brother in law's brother and his daughter who was Olgie.Ruby had my mum Ileen and she married my dad Robert Poulter. Trevor left the house to Olgie when he passed and then she left it to my nan (ruby) then my nan left it in a trust for her grandchildren who grew up in the house with her.
The bit of information that my mum gave me was that Olive was the eldest child but died at some point, Freddie lived on the Andemon islands and owned a motel and Beryl used to work in the Goverment either in India or Burma.
I dont know if Beryl and Fred died before she did but nothing was left for them.
Oh wow, that photo's amazing that is him as i have a later photo of him when he visited my nan and mum back in the 70's. your so clever at this!!
Thank you so much i will look at the other photos tomorrow.
And im going to google what a T A Commn is .
kiterunner
29-01-17, 09:09
And im going to google what a T A Commn is .
I think it means Territorial Army Commission.
kiterunner
29-01-17, 10:56
Booboo, do you have the date and place of Walter and Ruby's wedding, please? It might help with finding out when and where Olive was born.
Hi Kite runner, no never been able to find marriage.
Walters father was called Frederick Nicolls Burn
Ruby's father was called George Gerald Van der beek
kiterunner
29-01-17, 15:24
Thanks, Booboo. Can I just ask how you know that you have the right birth details for Walter Burn if you haven't found his marriage, though, please?
kiterunner
29-01-17, 18:27
There is a public tree on ancestry which has Ruby's sister, Winifred Millicent Vanderbeek, marrying Reginald Lovell Pocock on the 5th Jan 1899 at the American Baptist Mission Church, Bhamo, Upper Burma. So I wonder whether Ruby and Walter could have got married at the same church? But I can't find the records of that church online to check. :(
The marriage of Reginald Lovell Pocock in 1899 is on FMP, but I can't see anything for Ruby and Walter.
kiterunner
29-01-17, 18:49
Oh, ok, so if they got married at the same church it would have probably been on FMP too.
Does that mean somebody else has a family tree on the same family?
im going to have to see where i got that infomation about Walter because off the top of my head i cant remember! i dont even remember which site it was on now it was years ago, oh dear.
i will look now!
ok so i cant remember where i got this info from but what i have written down is Walter burn b, 6/5/1884 St John's College Chapel, Rangoon, Burma
Father Frederick Nicolls Burn
Advocate Mah Shway co but on other sites she is down as his parent.
ok so i cant remember where i got this info from but what i have written down is Walter burn b, 6/5/1884 St John's College Chapel, Rangoon, Burma
Father Frederick Nicolls Burn
Advocate Mah Shway co but on other sites she is down as his parent.
This is my transcription of the record from the British India Office Ecclesiastical Returns on fmp:
born 6 May 1884
baptised 8 Nov 1886
Christian Name: Walter
Sex: Male
Father: Frederick Burn (no middle name)
Mother: Ma Shwe Oo Burn
Abode: Rangoon
Occupation of father: Advocate
Priest: John E Marks
I think what Kiterunner was asking was, if you don't have the marriage record for Walter and Ruby stating Walter's father to be Frederick Burn, how do you know this is the right birth record?
Is it your Walter who died in October 1944? He has a middle name, Alfred, and is said to be aged 67, so possibly born about 1877.
I dont know that i am following the right Walter Burn, but the one that you have found above is the one that i have been looking at. And i have also seen the Walter that died in 1944. but again im not sure if that is the right Walter as I dont know where they used to live! I only know that they owned a Rubber plantation some where and that the japanese took over it during the war, and walter died falling off a Bull and cart by breaking his kneck.
I have also seen some where because ive noted it down that walter was a engineer for a rubber company but again i didn't write down where i saw it.
kiterunner
30-01-17, 11:24
Booboo, it might help us to find out more about Walter Burn if you can tell us what it says for father's name and occupation on your mother's birth certificate and on her marriage certificate.
Hi Kiterunner, sorry in late reply my lap top screen broke so have been without one till now! i have messaged my brother who might have their birth and marriage certificates and am waiting a reply from him, although my mum told me that he was a Engineer for a Rubber company and before my nan (Ruby) left they lived on a Rubber plantation. I dont know if that will help until i see whats on the certs!
kiterunner
02-02-17, 07:18
Okay, let us know when you have the information. If your brother doesn't have the certificates, you could order copies from the GRO.
Hi Kiterunner, my brother has found the marriage certificate which states that Walter was deceased and his profession was an Engineer in Rubber company. He Has my dads birth certificate but doesn't have my mums! I dont know if its worth ordering it as will it have anything different on it?? im not so sure!
kiterunner
02-02-17, 22:43
I think it would be worth ordering it just to see what it says, but of course it is up to you.
Ok Will order it this weekend, thanks Kiterunner
Hiya should get the birth certificate this week, was just reading up on Naturalisation and Denization!! Do you think that my grandmother would have had to do this?
kiterunner
13-02-17, 19:02
On the passenger arrivals list from Apr 1925 she is listed under "Names and Descriptions of British Passengers", so I don't think so.
Thanks Kiterunner, but im confused, she was born out there so how does that make her a British passenger?
kiterunner
14-02-17, 22:34
If her husband was a British citizen, she would have become one when she married him. It was possible to be a British citizen even if you were born in India; it would depend on your parents' citizenship.
To be a British subject required only that a person be born in any territory under the sovereignty of the Crown, and the majority of India was part of the British Empire until 1949. You were automatically a British Subject unless born in one of the numerous princely states within the country.
Thank you both for explaining that, now i understand.
Ok, got the birth cert today and it says that the fathers name was Walter Burn, His Occupation was a Municipal Engineer of 9. Raeburn Avenue, Tolworth, UD.
Mother R.Burn, Residence 9. Raeburn Avenue, Tolworth.
Well one question is answered, I now know where she resided before moving to 39 The Ridings just a few roads away which is interesting. My mum always said she was born in the Ridings, funny how stories can change. But i dont know what to do with the other bit of information! Does that mean that Walter was over here with her?
kiterunner
15-02-17, 13:43
It might mean that, or it might just mean that she said he was. Who registered the birth?
kiterunner
15-02-17, 14:22
I've been having no luck trying to find Raeburn Avenue on the electoral register or in a directory around that time, but this shows who was living at the address a few years later, probably no help but just in case:
National Probate Calendar 1931
CLARKE Harry Hurst of 9 Raeburn-avenue Surbiton Surrey died 2 October 1931 at the Kingston and District Hospital Kingston-on-Thames Administration London 15 December to Mabel Florence Clarke widow. Effects £1463 12s 4d.
kiterunner
15-02-17, 14:47
I think I looked at this passenger list leaving the UK before but ruled it out as they don't have any children with them and they would have had Olive and Beryl by then, but since municipal engineer seems quite close to civil engineer, will just post it up in case we need to refer to it again:
http://interactive.ancestry.com/2997/40610_B000857-00273/34362300?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
2 Jan 1915 the "City of London", Liverpool to Bombay
Mr W A Burn, civil engineer, age 37
Mrs Burn, wife, 24
Country of last permanent residence - England
Country of intended future permanent residence - India.
I so want that to be the right couple, particularly with the difference in age between them, but I did find these records, below, and am adding them here not knowing if half way through I will find something to count these out.....
England, United Grand Lodge of England Freemason Membership Registers, 1751-1921 (ancestry)
Lodge of Unanimity and Sincerity (presuming this is in Taunton as most new members live there)
Walter A Burn 17 Dec 1913 age not listed (just about the only one that isn't!) address Taunton, occ Civil Engineer
I don't see him on the 1911 census in Taunton.
In 1914 Q3 there's a marriage in Taunton District for Walter A Burn to Lilian M Bateman.
I don't know if Lilian was a spinster, but if she was, there are no children showing in the GRO index. Perhaps they had gone to India? No Burn births in India with mother's first name Lilian either though.
I haven't found any more on the above Walter yet, but I know he isn't the same man as this one below (1939 register):
Walter Burn b 24 Mar 1876 Engineers & Surveyor Sutton U D C Widowed
This Walter was recorded as a civil engineer in his mother's will of 1914. He married Catherine Cameron in 1904 and she was the same age as him in 1911. He also has no middle name.
It's only a fluke they above two are both called Walter and not William or Wilfred etc.
R.Burn was the informant for the birth registration.
Harry Clarke doesn't ring a bell from Raeburn Ave. But i have seen Walter Alfred Burn before in my searches his death was in Buna, Jhelum 11/10/1944 age 67 which is the Walter that Merry had found previously.but I dont know if this was them or not! The children would have been very young and ruby could have been possibly pregnant with Frederick depending on which year he was actually born.
I also in my searches found a Margherita Wouters Born to a Vander Beek mother 1914 in Liverpool, my mum mentioned that Ruby's mum died in Edinburgh , Scotland her name was Jane Ada Eveline Mccay before she became a Vander Beek so if it was them in Liverpool then maybe they were here visiting. My brains working overtime now.
The Walter Burn that Kiterunner has found leaving liverpool for India would have been born in 1878 and the Walter Burn that I was originally following was born in 1884, so im not sure.
The Walter Burn that Kiterunner has found leaving liverpool for India would have been born in 1878 and the Walter Burn that I was originally following was born in 1884, so im not sure.
But the Walter Alfred Burn who died during the war was potentially older. If only they had recorded his cause of death, we could be more certain whether or not his was the entry you are looking for.
Yes i know Merry! Too many dead ends .I don't even know where the Rubber plantation was im thinking possibly Burma now. If i knew which area that was then it might make looking for his death a bit easier.
kiterunner
15-02-17, 21:44
No Burn births in India with mother's first name Lilian either though.
I don't think FMP gives the mother's name for births as recent as this would be though, do they?
The Walter Burn that Kiterunner has found leaving liverpool for India would have been born in 1878 and the Walter Burn that I was originally following was born in 1884, so im not sure.
We don't know whether the person travelling from Liverpool to India was a Walter as it only had his initials.
kiterunner
15-02-17, 21:46
R.Burn was the informant for the birth registration.
Harry Clarke doesn't ring a bell from Raeburn Ave. But i have seen Walter Alfred Burn before in my searches his death was in Buna, Jhelum 11/10/1944 age 67 which is the Walter that Merry had found previously.but I dont know if this was them or not! The children would have been very young and ruby could have been possibly pregnant with Frederick depending on which year he was actually born.
Frederick was born in 1916 according to the transcription on FMP.
kiterunner
15-02-17, 22:03
R.Burn was the informant for the birth registration.
Harry Clarke doesn't ring a bell from Raeburn Ave. But i have seen Walter Alfred Burn before in my searches his death was in Buna, Jhelum 11/10/1944 age 67 which is the Walter that Merry had found previously.but I dont know if this was them or not! The children would have been very young and ruby could have been possibly pregnant with Frederick depending on which year he was actually born.
I also in my searches found a Margherita Wouters Born to a Vander Beek mother 1914 in Liverpool, my mum mentioned that Ruby's mum died in Edinburgh , Scotland her name was Jane Ada Eveline Mccay before she became a Vander Beek so if it was them in Liverpool then maybe they were here visiting. My brains working overtime now.
Beryl was born in May 1914 in India, so Ruby couldn't have had a child in England that year. Or do you mean she had a sister who could be Margherita's mother?
FamilySearch has Jane Ada Eveline Grace Mccay married George Gerard Vanderbeek 20 Jun 1878 Poona, Bombay. I can't find her death on Scotland'sPeople. George Gerard died in India in 1924.
kiterunner
15-02-17, 22:26
In 1914 Q3 there's a marriage in Taunton District for Walter A Burn to Lilian M Bateman.
Here is the image for that marriage:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60858/42886_1831109331_1047-00172/3224986?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
29 Aug 1914 Trull, Somerset
Walter Alfred Burn 37 bachelor, Civil Engineer, residence 9 Belvedere West, Taunton, father Henry Joekim de Cruz, engineer (deceased)
Lilian Mai Bateman, 24, spinster, residence Trull, father William Edward Bateman, clerk.
Hmm, this is confusing, as Beryl Jane Burn had been born in India earlier that year, but this Walter Burn definitely came from India (we know from his father's name as there are births in India to the father) and was a civil engineer (though we haven't seen him described as a municipal engineer). Also this must be the couple who travelled from Liverpool to India. Need to look at this again tomorrow!
kiterunner
15-02-17, 22:30
Ooh, but although it's not tomorrow yet, I did find this:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&_phsrc=iNh5088&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&db=fs1indiamarriages&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsfn=lil*+mai&gsfn_x=1&gsln=burn&gsln_x=1&cp=0&catbucket=rstp&MSAV=2&uidh=vm5&pcat=34&fh=0&h=554001&recoff=&ml_rpos=1
Lilian Mai Burn married Charles Campbell Canney 1 Aug 1919 Delhi, Bengal, age 29, divorced, father William Bateman.
kiterunner
16-02-17, 13:32
I think it would help with your family research if you could get copies of Beryl and Frederick's birth / baptism records. Unfortunately, Findmypast only has minimal transcriptions because they were less than 100 years old at the time when FMP launched its database:
Beryl Jane Burn born 28 May 1914 Moulmein, Bengal, father's surname Burn, baptism 1914 or 1918
Frederick Walter Burn born 1916 Moulmein, Bengal, baptised 1916 or 1918, father's surname Burn.
The full records should be available from the British Library India Office, but the cost is pretty high, unless you can easily get there yourself:
http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelpregion/asia/india/indiaofficerecordsfamilyhistory/familyresearch.html
They do have a list of private researchers who you can pay to look them up for you, and hopefully it would work out cheaper that way (there is a link to download it on the page linked to above.)
Just thinking that if you could get those, you would have the parents' names and it might confirm whether Walter Alfred Burn / D'Cruz was your Walter or not. It's a shame that FMP haven't opened these records up fully as they pass the 100 year mark as it does look pretty pricey to get them from the British Library.
kiterunner
16-02-17, 13:47
I've been searching, but not managed to find Walter on any more passenger lists yet.
There are some family trees on ancestry which show that Walter Alfred Burn married a Theresa Ann Conway (previous married name Hawkshaw). Findmypast shows that they married in 1936 in Karachi, Bombay. Some of the ancestry trees show them having a son who died before the marriage. There is a photo available - if you have any photos of your Walter you could compare them?
http://mv.ancestry.com.au/viewer/56531341-1c5d-4e10-864c-b3ecfe88dc86/984869/-2020880315
It says on the page that this child was Walter Alfred's only son, but of course it could be that the person who uploaded this photo didn't know about his other children, if Walter Alfred is your Walter.
kiterunner
16-02-17, 14:07
I've found a list of people evacuated from Burma in 1942:
http://www.angloburmeselibrary.com/lists.html
Unfortunately it is mostly initials rather than full first names, but includes Mr and Mrs W Burn and Mrs F W Burn.
kiterunner
16-02-17, 17:09
Not sure whether Mrs Burn on the list is part of the same family or not, but here are the entries:
Mr and Mrs W Burn, address in Burma Rangoon, address in India Suite 2, Emerald Court, 178 Lower Circular Road, Calcutta
Mrs Burn, address in India c/o Mr Hogg, 5 Alipore Road, Calcutta
Mrs F W Burn, address in India 32/3 Married Qrs, Clifton, Murree.
Mr and Mrs W Burn could be Walter Alfred and Theresa Ann, and Mrs F W Burn could be Frederick's wife?
Well i know my Mrs Burn was here in Britain in 1942 but i wonder if Mrs F W Burn was Ruby's son Frederick Walter Burn wife?? so im not sure. As for all the other info you have found I suppose I could go myself to the British Library at some point but I really wouldn't know what I would be doing once I got there.
As for the the unknown Vander Beek mother in Liverpool I was thinking maybe Ruby was visiting her sister or her brothers wife, just a thought.
Maybe Walter Alfred was a relative of Ruby's Walter
kiterunner
16-02-17, 17:23
Is the daughter still alive, by the way? If so then I need to remove her information from this thread as it would be against our forum rules.
I have no clue kiterunner if she is alive as i cant find anything about her from just her birth details.
I have deleted her name from my thread just incase.
But yes i would agree with you that the date and place of the daughter would fit with the evacuation date and place.
kiterunner
17-02-17, 10:21
We now have the information from Beryl and Frederick's baptisms:
Moulmein, 14 Feb 1918 baptisms
Beryl Jane, born 28 May 1914, daughter of Walter and Ruby Ileen Burn, abode Amherst, father's occupation Sergt, Ford Van Company, Mesopotamia
Frederick Walter, born 27 Sep 1916, son of ... as above.
The Ford Van Company Mesopotamia was an army unit; information on here:
http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Royal_Army_Service_Corps#Mechanical_Transport_Comp anies_from_Burma_WW1
I wonder if we can find any records of this unit which will give information about Walter Burn.
So Frederick and Beryl were baptised quite a long time after they were born. I suppose Walter may have been away as it was war time.
Booboo, you mentioned a couple of times that Frederick and Beryl's older sibling, Olive, died. Did you have the impression that was as a baby, or in childhood or any other clues?
Hi MErry I have no clue with regards to Olive I pressume my mum was told that she had died but was the eldest, its so frustrating. There doesnt seem to be any sign of her.
kiterunner
17-02-17, 15:43
I haven't managed to find a WW1 medal index card for Walter Burn.
kiterunner
17-02-17, 16:17
By the way, you mentioned the Andaman Islands at the beginning of this thread.
They have an online search for the current electoral register but nobody called Burn there (of course if I did find someone, I wouldn't post up the full details):
http://as1.and.nic.in/newElection/electorlalSearch.php
and this is the main website for the Andaman & Nicobar Islands:
http://www.andaman.gov.in/
Thanks Kiterunner i will have a look
kiterunner
17-02-17, 17:17
I don't know whether you saw my post #55 with a link to a photo of Walter Alfred Burn? Do you have any photos of your Walter Burn which you could compare with it?
Hi Kiterunner no i didnt see it and i dont have any photos of him . Trevor, Emily,Ruby Freddy but not Walter. Typical
That's a shame.
Who is Emily? Oh Trevor's wife?
Hi Ladies
I was wondering should I write to the places that the lady suggested in her email to me and if so could you give me a heads up on what I should ask them please.
I guess it would be Walter/Ruby's Marriage, Beryls Marriage, Olive's death and Emily's death.
Anything else I should ask?
TIA
kiterunner
20-02-17, 17:35
Do you mean this?
It is sometimes possible to obtain a copy of the original entry by writing to the church where the ceremony took place or to the Registrar General of the area.
The trouble is, if you don't know where Walter and Ruby got married, or where Beryl got married, etc, how would you know where to write to? I suppose you could get the addresses of all possible Registrar Generals and write to them. But I don't know how likely the authorities in Myanmar, particularly, are to reply to a letter.
Have you found Frederick Walter's marriage? Or is that on the list too? And Walter's death?
If you give us the information that you have about Emily, we could see whether we can find anything. I haven't looked for her before.
Marriages solemnised at the Hastings London Mission Chapel, Calccutta
16 May 1894
Trevor Irvin Pocock aged 21 4/12 bachelor occ Forest ??? II address 46 Wellesley St father Lovell J Pocock
Emilie May Closin aged 25 spinster address 46 Wellesley St father Edwin Closin
Emilie May Pocock died 23 May 1918 Mussoorie, Bengal
Oh well done Merry where did you find that info? well that's one mystery off the list, thank you so much :)
Hi Kiterunner yes I know what you mean, Burma would be a difficult area to gain info from, further down her email were different churchs etc i think mainly in India, I was wondering if I literally wrote to all of them (bit of a long shot) I know, if they might have anything in the parish registers.
Although Merry has found some very useful info out for me. :)
Ive just realised that my Nan would have left a 9 and 11 year old behind to come to England in 1925, She had to have gone back to India/Burma to have gotten pregnant with my mum.
Merry what is a 4/12 bachelor please? Do you know?
Ive just realised that my Nan would have left a 9 and 11 year old behind to come to England in 1925, She had to have gone back to India/Burma to have gotten pregnant with my mum.
I thought we had decided it was highly unlikely she went back??
Merry what is a 4/12 bachelor please? Do you know?
That was his age - 21 years and four (4/12) months.
The marriage record and death for Emilie May were on FMP.
oh ok thanks Merry very precise wasn't it 4/12 , guess that was really important to him.
As for my gran you still think that Trevor was my mums dad? If he was why wasn't he named on the birth certificate as so? Don't see the problem myself and my mum remembered being asked if she wanted to go back to india, surely gran wouldn't of asked her if she had anything to hide! I just have a feeling that Walter was her dad you know.
Was it on Ancestry that you found the passenger lists? :)
kiterunner
21-02-17, 15:40
oh ok thanks Merry very precise wasn't it 4/12 , guess that was really important to him.
Maybe because Emilie was a few years older than him, he wanted the age gap to sound a bit less?
Maybe Kiterunner, bless him:)
As for my gran you still think that Trevor was my mums dad? If he was why wasn't he named on the birth certificate as so? Don't see the problem myself and my mum remembered being asked if she wanted to go back to india, surely gran wouldn't of asked her if she had anything to hide! I just have a feeling that Walter was her dad you know.
Was it on Ancestry that you found the passenger lists? :)
Yes, the passenger lists were from Ancestry.
I can't say that Trevor was your grandfather, but I am sceptical that Walter was, mainly because of the story about the malaria and dashing of to the UK whilst pregnant, when it would seem Ruby had been here for several years and apparently living with Trevor during those years. Would Ruby have gone back to Walter and then returned to Trevor? If she did, why can't we find any record of that? It also doesn't seem that Walter came here at the right time.
As for the birth cert - the law on this is a bit of a grey area as it is am offence to lie to the registrar, but also it is accepted that within a marriage the father of any children is the husband (that is why, if a mother registers a birth and she is married she doesn't need to take her husband with her to agree he is the father, but she would need to take the father along, or have him sign a declaration, if they were not married). So, if Trevor was the father, he and Ruby were not married, Ruby may have decided it would be better for your mother if her husband was recorded as the father, rather than having to acknowledge an illegitimate birth. Attitudes were very different in those days and Ruby may have felt your mother's life might be blighted if it was known she was illegitimate.
I hasten to add, I am certainly not saying it's 100% definite that Walter was not the father, but there don't seem to be any records to help us make it possible!! I do agree that it is surprising that Ruby asked your mother if she would like to go to India if that might reveal a scandal, but we can't know that they would have actually travelled if your mum had said Yes.
You mentioned that Trevor left his property to his daughter Olga. Have you actually seen Trevor's will? I just wondered if your mother was mentioned at all and how she is described if she was (I realise she was only a small child)? Am I right in thinking that neither Olga nor Trevor's son had any descendants? Pity, or you could have had a DNA test to see if you are related.
True! True! No Mum wasnt mentioned in his will but he left money to his parents. But on the deeds to the house he left that to Olga his daughter who in turn then left it to my nan who then left it to us three children in a trust. I know that Olga didnt have any children but im not sure about Alan. I have found that he travelled from Calcutter to London in 1933 to stay at 39 Theridings with his dad and sister.
I do know that Ruby's sister Winnefred had a daughter called Susan who my mum used to keep in contact with but I dont know if she is still alive, I will have to check on that.
I remember Alan was in the UK in 1939 and he was single then. He died here in 1955. I can't see a marriage here or any other passenger list entries after 1939.
kiterunner
22-02-17, 07:52
I remember Alan was in the UK in 1939 and he was single then. He died here in 1955. I can't see a marriage here or any other passenger list entries after 1939.
If he is Alan Trevor Pocock who died 27 Dec 1955 then probate went to Rosa Hatton widow.
Yes, that's the one, Kate. I tried to work out who she was, but it was too difficult.
kiterunner
22-02-17, 08:31
Suggests he wasn't married, doesn't it?
I suppose he could have been a widower when he died, but there's nothing to indicate he was ever married.
Hi Ladies, i dont know if ive found the right Alan Pocock or not but i have found a Alan pocock living with a Rosa J Hatton and violet Hatton in Lewisham 1951 and 1956 but he died in 1955 so would this be just a coincidence of names?
Its on the electoral registers 1951.
That sounds possible. Often listings for electoral rolls were created a while before publishing, so people quite often appear the year after their death.
There's this Rosa who has a dau, Violet, who were on my shortlist this morning. This is the 1939 Register when they were living at Holmethorpe Glebe Avenue , Havant and Waterlooville U.D., Hampshire
Rosa Hatton 22 Aug 1894 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Widowed
Joan F Pratt (Hatton) 20 Aug 1916 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Single
Violet R Burt (Hatton) 09 Mar 1918 Female Grocers Assistant Single
Violet married Eric C Burt in 1962
Rosa's maiden surname was Hudson. She died in 1992 aged 98.
Rosa J Hatton
That J isn't her middle initial, it's to tell us she is eligible for jury service (that's why it's in heavy type)
now im getting confused as ive found 3 Alan T pocock's.
now im getting confused as ive found 3 Alan T pocock's.
Where?
sorry Merry i didnt scroll up the messages. Your so clever i would never had known that about the 'J' in her name.
Ive just found Trevor, Reginald his wife( possibly Winnifred) her age on passenger list fits her birth year. Also a Miss V. Pocock aged 43.
uk outward bound to Burma from Liverpool Oct1922.
The brothers were both Foresters and all have C/o Thos. Cook & Sonn. London against their names.
What about the three entries for Alan T Pocock? I still can't find those to tell you what they are.
Just found also The passenger list May 1921 UK incoming from Rangoon, Burma
Trevor, Olga, Reginald, Winnefred and another R L Pocock (STUDENT) Traveling to London, Professions are Forest Assistants.
Theres a Alan T Pocock which is the one that died in 1955
A Alan T Pocock B1851 who traveled from Rangoon 1919 to Liverpool and Another Alan T Pocock in Wales 1937 on Ancestry.
Theres a Alan T Pocock which is the one that died in 1955
A Alan T Pocock B1851 who traveled from Rangoon 1919 to Liverpool and Another Alan T Pocock in Wales 1937 on Ancestry.
OK, the 1955 one is Trevor's son.
The 1919 one is him too with an incorrect dob in the transcription (he a student on his way to Glasgow Uni)
The 1937 one is a birth record, and presumably unconnected to the others.
ok so 1919 was that the first time he came here? because he also came here in 1939 i think!!
I can see Alan arriving;
29 Dec 1919
departing
29 Apr 1932
and arriving again
27 May 1933
I don't see him travelling in 1939, but he was on the 1939 Register.
Thanks Merry, really appreciate your help.:)
vBulletin® v3.8.7 PL3, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.