James Smith of Great Torrington

[Phoenix]

appears to have been a regular bluebeard!

When he dies in 1703/4 his wife gets £5, while his children get £50 or more. http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/5111/40611_310705-00384/1021657?backurl=%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dcanturburyprerogativecourt%26 so%3d2%26pcat%3d36%26_phsrc%3dsXh3516%26_phstart%3 dsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsln%3dsmyth%26 gsln_x%3dNN%26msypn__ftp%3ddevon%26MSAV%3d1%26cpxt %3d1%26cp%3d4%26catbucket%3drstp%26uidh%3d9vh&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
There appear from this to be only the two: James, the son of Frances, b 1681 and Susan, daughter of Margaret b 1664.

Margaret presumably died in childbed in 1664 - she appears to be buried nearly a fortnight before her daughter is christened.
Another Margaret is buried in 1676
Frances is buried in 1684.

James had land in Somerset and someone in that county has extracted lots of non PCC wills for the Smyths of Great Torrington.

Short of going to the Devon and Somerset ROs, can anyone suggest how I can access:



Great Torrington marriages in the 1600s- not yet on FMP
Siraut p 210,211 - extracts of the wills - [Siraut] Siraut, M. (ed). Somerset Wills. Somerset Record Society Vol 89 (2003) - A printed version of a set of abstracts (made before 1942 by A.J. Monday).



There were, of course, several James Smyths in Torrington at the time. One was married to Alce, another to Wilmoth, but I have no idea who my James's presumable fourth wife was.

[Phoenix]

James, by the way, is variously described as Alderman, Gent, Attorney and Maior.

[kiterunner]

The FamilySearch catalogue lists film or DGS number 100121339 as Baptisms, marriages, burials, 4014A/PR/1/1, 1616-1733 for Great Torrington, and there is a symbol you can click to view the images, but "These images are viewable: To signed-in members of supporting organizations. (or) When using the site at a family history center". So you should be able to view them on a computer at your local FamilySearch Centre.

https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/2325669?availability=Family%20History%20Library

[kiterunner]

Amazon have a couple of copies of the Somerset Wills book listed and the first one is being sold by Oxfam, so although it costs over £30 you could at least look on it as a charity donation:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0901732370/ref=tmm_hrd_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&qid=1483470797&sr=8-1-fkmr0

Oh, or you can buy it from Somerset Record Society for £15 + P&P:
http://www.westcountrygenealogy.com/somerset/srspublicationslist.htm
I can't see how you buy from them but there are contact details on here:
http://www.westcountrygenealogy.com/somerset/somrecsoc.htm

[kiterunner]

I see Oxfam bookshop has it cheaper than Amazon on their own site (£28) and you can cut out the middleman that way:
http://www.oxfam.org.uk/shop/books/history/somerset-wills-estracted-by-a-j-monday-hd_100771194

Not sure which would work out cheaper with P & P though.

But buying it from Somerset Record Society is still much cheaper, if it is possible!

[kiterunner]

The Society of Genealogists has it in their collection, if that's any help:
http://s10312uk.eos-intl.eu/S10312UK/OPAC/Details/Record.aspx?IndexCode=15&TaskCode=817879&HitCount=2&CollectionCode=2&SortDirection=Ascending&CurrentPage=1&CurrentLinkCode=MS10312UK|14672027|1|14954366&SelectionType=0&SearchType=3&BrowseSearchIndexCode=2&BrowseSearchText=siraut&BibCode=MS10312UK|14672027|1|14954366

[kiterunner]

Or "buy it now" on eBay for £15 + P&P:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Somerset-Wills-v-89-Somerset-Record-Society-Anonymous-/272421301954?hash=item3f6d932ec2:i:272421301954

[Phoenix]

Thank you, Kite!
My New Year Resolution was - not to do any family history until I'd written up the old stuff. But this man is variously described as Richard Smyth of Tavistock or John Smyth of Tavistock, and I'm feeling so smug at having found him and KNOWING I have the right man (and his grandfather!) that I may well head off to Kew this Saturday!

[Phoenix]

More by luck than judgement, I found this index to marriages:

http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/GreatTorrington/Wickes/Marriages1613-1732.html

It is possible that James' last wife was Thomasine. Meanwhile, of course, his earlier marriages are not recorded.

[Phoenix]

Thanks to Kite, I had a wonderful time, trawling through will transcripts and browsing the registers.
I remain (relatively!) confident that James was the grandson of Richard d 1631 and probably the son of Richard bur feb 21 1649/50.

I am puzzled by his son James, bp 1681. His will mentions four underage daughters: Elizabeth, Frances, Lavinia and Margaret. He appears to have married late in life c 1725, and his wife, Grace, predeceased him. His will describes him as of St Audrey, Somerset: http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/5111/40611_311639-01168/574380?backurl=%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dsXh3668%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3dcanturburyprero gativecourt%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d36%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3djames%26gsfn_x%3dN P_NN%26gsln%3dsmyth%26gsln_x%3dNP_NN%26gskw%3dsome rset%26cp%3d4%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3d9vh%26cpxt%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Lavinia seems to have married William Fellowes in 1765 in London.http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_194666-00240/1886356?backurl=%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlmamarriages%26so%3d2%26pcat% 3dBMD_MARRIAGE%26_phsrc%3dsXh3653%26_phstart%3dsuc cessSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3dwilliam%26gsfn_x%3 dNP_NN%26gsln%3dfellowes%26gsln_x%3dNP_NN%26msgdy% 3d1765%26mssng%3dlavinia%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3d9vh&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Elizabeth and Frances married Molesworth brothers in the 1750s: see http://ukga.org/england/Cornwall/visitations/ page 328.

But then who is Dorothy, daughter of James who married Luke Glubb on p 580? They married in 1715? I can't see that she belongs to "my family" as she is not mentioned in either James senior or junior's wills. Any ideas?

[Phoenix]

I can confirm that James was a bluebeard. Can't find his marriage to Margaret but he then married Mrs Elizabeth Frost of Bideford 22 Feb 1676/7 who he buried 14 August 1677. Next was Frances, and finally Mrs Ann Warren, widow 24 May 1688 who survived him.

[Phoenix]

Feeling very smug indeed about this family.

I've been dabbling at Kew, but most of the records are online, and by using Boyd's inhabitants of London and PCC wills (amongst other sources), I have proved that James was the son of Grace Chauncy and Richard Smith.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/5111/40611_311314-00297/896899?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dCanturburyPrerogativeCourt%26 gss%3dsfs28_ms_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%2 6gsfn%3danthony%26gsfn_x%3dNP_NN%26gsln%3dwatts%26 gsln_x%3dNP_NN%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3d9vh&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=40611_31131 4-00298

[kiterunner]

Well done.

[Pinefamily]

Hello Phoenix (and Kiterunner),
I know this is an old thread, but I was wondering if you have untangled the various Smyth/Smith's of Great Torrington? I did contact you last year I think about them, but have since made further progress on my own line. As far as I can tell at this stage, my ancestor was John Smyth, a brother of your James. It is very confusing with each generation having a James, John, Richard, and George.
Cheers, Darren

[Phoenix]

Okay
Richard Smyth married Johane who died 1620
Richard died 1631
Their son Richard married Garce Chauncey 13 October 1618 in Sawbridgeworth.
Richard died 21 February 1649 Great Torrington and Grace 7 April 1669.
Their son John (is this your John?) was born 1632. He was joint executor of his mother's will made 24 Feb 1667/8 and is described as "of Northiam, gent"
He is possibly the same John as the father of Grace bp 1665, who is described as son of Mr Richard Smith, Alderman.
A Mr John Smyth, marchant was bur 9 June 1680.
My ancestor, James, was baptised 4 Feb 1637 and buried 31 August 1703.
He had four wives and eleven children. Only two children survived him: Susannah by his first wife Margaret Rosier and James b 1681, by Frances Rowland.
James junior moved from Great Torrington and had four daughters.

[Pinefamily]

Thanks Phoenix. That's pretty much how I've got it worked out, plus a couple of George's, among others. I've had slow going of it, because I can't locate several marriages.
According to Burke's Landed Gentry 1847, my ancestor William Palmer married Rebecca Smith 2 Sep 1698. With a complete date you would think I can find a marriage, but no. She is described as the daughter of (blank) Smith of Canonsleigh. This is what pointed me to the Great Torrington family.
From my research I have found Rebecca had a sister Mary, who married Elijah Dene. Both couples lived at Clyst Hydon (Elijah and William were curates of the parish). What I have found so far is a Mary Smyth was baptised in Great Torrington in 1648, daughter of John and Elizabeth Smyth, merchant. A Rebecca Smyth was baptised in Bideford in 1662, father John Smyth merchant. John's wife Elizabeth was buried in Bideford in 1663.
This is about as far as I have got. At this stage I think John was the brother of James. The Burke's entry having a slight error. There was a John Smyth senior and junior in Great Torrington as well, but I think senior was the brother of Richard, John and James' father.
Where did you find Grace's will?

[Phoenix]

Post 1 gives the source of the wills. It's a printed volume and may well be available in large genealogical libraries.

There are a lot of Johns. The Richard who married Johane had at least 8 sons, but I lose track of them very quickly.