Who Do You Think You Are - Danny Dyer 24th Nov

[kiterunner]

On BBC1 at 8 p.m. and repeated next Wednesday (30th Nov) at 11:45 p.m., also on BBC1.

[vita]

Really looking forward to this one - thanks, Kite.

[Ann from Sussex]

So am I....but shame on my Saturday newspaper that, buried in a full page article about the history of WDYTYA, gave away the "surprise" outcome of tonight's programme. By the time I realised what they had done it was too late and I had read the offending sentence. It has rather spoilt the anticipation for me. I will still be watching though!

[vita]

So am I....but shame on my Saturday newspaper that, buried in a full page article about the history of WDYTYA, gave away the "surprise" outcome of tonight's programme. By the time I realised what they had done it was too late and I had read the offending sentence. It has rather spoilt the anticipation for me. I will still be watching though!

Same happened to me Ann. So annoying.

[Anstey Nomad]

And me, so I knew the who, but not the how, as it were.

I thoroughly enjoyed it, but I may be alone in that. FB is getting very excited and most of the epithets are less than flattering.

[kiterunner]

Episode synopsis:

Danny Dyer was born in 1977 in the Custom House area of the East End of London, and now lives in Essex with his family. His parents split up when he was young, and he was brought up mostly by his mother.

Danny met up with his father Tony Dyer who told him a bit about his family. Tony's parents were John Dyer and Joyce Rudd. Joyce's mother, Mary Ann Wallace, died of kidney failure when Joyce was 9, and she was brought up by her grandmother Mary Ann Buttivant and aunt Sylvia Wallace.

Tony showed Danny a photo of Mary Ann Buttivant's parents Albert and Ann Buttivant, born 1851, who he said ran a workhouse in the East End.

Danny met a researcher to find out more about Mary Ann Buttivant and her parents. Mile End workhouse records from 1878 show that baby Mary Ann and her mother Ann were admitted as paupers, with many further admission and discharge records for the Buttivant family including Mary Ann's sisters Eliza and Emma, but not many records of Albert. Danny visited the old workhouse building which now houses Mile End Hospital, and was advised to look for records of Mary Ann Buttivant in the criminal records. These showed that in 1895, as a 17-year-old servant, she had been bailed at the police court charged that "Having been delivered of a child [she] did, by secret disposition of the dead body, endeavour to conceal the birth thereof." Mary Ann pleaded guilty. Danny was shown some further documents at Bishopsgate Institute: the indictment which said that Mary Ann had given birth to a female child on the 24th Feb, and the baby's death certificate which said that she was found dead, cause of death haemorrhage from the umbilical cord due to lack of medical attention at birth. Age at death 2 minutes. Mary Ann received the equivalent of a suspended sentence.

Mary Ann went on to marry and have ten more children, including the youngest, Sylvia, who is now 92 and lives in Poplar in East London, with her daughter Iris. Danny went to see them and told them the story of Mary Ann's first baby, which they had never heard before. They said that Mary Ann delivered many babies for local women in later life, as a sort of unqualified midwife, although she would leave the cutting of the cord for the nurse to do. They said that Albert and Ann died when Sylvia was about 9, and that the family story was that Albert came from a rich French family whose name was Boutivant.

Danny ordered Albert's birth certificate and it said that he was born on the 4th Nov 1851 at Church Lane, Whitechapel. His parents were Charles Buttivant, commercial clerk, and Hannah Sarah Wing. Danny went to see a genealogist who had done the Buttivant family tree for him, going back from Charles's father James Buttivant (she didn't find a French connection there) and Charles's mother Ann Gosnold, who was descended from Robert Gosnold of Suffolk, 1611-1658, Danny's 10xg-grandfather. Robert Gosnold's baptism record said that his father, also Robert Gosnold, was an armiger, i.e. had a coat of arms, which Danny was shown.

Danny went to Oxford to meet a Civil War historian who told him about Robert Gosnold jr's part in the Civil War, on the Royalists' side to the end. He then went to the Gosnolds' family seat, Otley Hall at Otley in Suffolk, where a local historian showed him a document saying that Robert was fined £600 in 1646 soon after the war ended. After Robert's death, his heirs had to sell the land.

Robert jr's mother was Anne Tollemache. Danny went to meet the current Lord Tollemache at Helmingham Hall, and they went to Helmingham Church to look at the Tollmache family monuments including those of Anne's father Lionel Tollemache and his father, grandfather, and great-grandfather. Lionel's memorial inscription said that his wife, Anne's mother, was "Lord Cromwell's daughter", i.e. Catherine Cromwell, the great-granddaughter of Thomas Cromwell, making Thomas Cromwell Danny's 15xg-grandfather.

Danny went to Hampton Court Palace to find out more about Thomas Cromwell. Thomas was born about 1485 in Putney, where his father, Walter Cromwell, was a blacksmith and brewer. Thomas went on to become King Henry VIII's right-hand man and was made Earl of Essex. Danny was shown Thomas's coat of arms.

He then went to the Tower of London where Thomas was brought on charges of treason and heresy and was executed in 1540. Danny was told that Thomas's son Gregory Cromwell married Elizabeth Seymour, the sister of Jane Seymour, and that Gregory and Elizabeth's eldest son Henry Cromwell, named after Henry VIII, was Danny's direct ancestor.

He then went to Westminster Abbey to find out about the Seymour family, and was shown a family tree tracing them back to the Plantagenets, with King Edward III at the top of the tree, Danny's 22xg-grandfather. Danny looked at Edward's tomb, and then went home to Essex to show the family tree to his family.

[Margaret in Burton]

He annoyed me but the programme was good.

[kiterunner]

Same here, Margaret. Funny how upset he got about Mary Ann's baby but then he was very happy to be descended from a Civil War colonel and from Thomas Cromwell, who were responsible for a lot more deaths than that.

I thought Buttevant was an Irish place name, so I was expecting them to trace the Buttivants back to Ireland.

I assume this is Albert Buttivant on the 1911 census, age a bit out:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_01748_0007_33/3033422?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dWHR3329%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3d1911england%26s o%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dalb*%26g sfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3db*t*v*nt*%26gsln_x%3d1%26MSAV%3 d2%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket %3drstp&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Poplar Workhouse: Albert Buttivant, Inmate, 64, Married, General Labourer, born London Poplar.

1901 census:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/LNDRG13_349_350-0258/2855171?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dWHR3332%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1901%26so%3d 2%26pcat%3d35%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dalb*%26g sfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3db*t*v*nt*%26gsln_x%3d1%26MSAV%3 d2%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket %3drstp&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
42 Blackthorn St, Bromley, London
Albert Buttivant Head M 50 Corn Porter London City
Ann Do Wife M 51 Do Poplar

1891 census:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/LNDRG12_306_307-0523/7811469?backurl=%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dWHR3332%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1891%26so%3d 2%26pcat%3d35%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dalb*%26g sfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3db*t*v*nt*%26gsln_x%3d1%26MSAV%3 d2%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket %3drstp&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
87 Ernest Street, Mile End Old Town
Albert Buttivant Head M 40 China Packer London St Georges
Ann Do Wife M 41 Washerwoman Do Poplar
Ann E Do Daur S 19 Domestic Servant Do Stepney
Mary Ann Do Daur 12 Scholar Do Do

1881 census:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/LNDRG11_484_487-1019/15424379?backurl=%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dWHR3332%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1881%26so%3d 2%26pcat%3d35%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dalb*%26g sfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3db*t*v*nt*%26gsln_x%3d1%26MSAV%3 d2%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket %3drstp&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Mile End Old Town Workhouse
Buttivant Albert Husband Mar 31 Cigar Maker Minories City
Buttivant Ann Wife " 30 Wife of the above Stepney Midlx

1871 census:
1871 census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/LNDRG10_557_559-0338/5232819?backurl=%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dWHR3332%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1871%26so%3d 2%26pcat%3d35%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dalb*%26g sfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3db*t*v*nt*%26gsln_x%3d1%26MSAV%3 d2%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket %3drstp&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
11 Heath St, Mile End Old Town
Hannah Buttervant Head W 45 Laundress Middlesex Stepney
Albert Do Son Unm 19 Cigar Packer Do Whitechapel
Joseph Do Son 11 Do Aldgate
Walter Do Son 9 Do Whitechapel
Emily Do Daur 14 Do Do
Louisa Do Daur 6 Do Stepney

and 1861:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/MDXRG9_272_276-0534/5772352?backurl=%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dWHR3332%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1861%26so%3d 2%26pcat%3d35%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dalb*%26g sfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3db*t*v*nt*%26gsln_x%3d1%26MSAV%3 d2%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket %3drstp&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
3 Royal Mint, Aldgate
Charles Buttevant Head Mar 56 Cargo Cl Norfolk Norwich
Hannah S Do Wife Mar 36 Middlesex St Martins in the Fields
Hannah M Do Daur 13 Do Westminster
Albert Do Son 9 Do Whitechapel
Emily Do Daur 4 Do Do
Joseph Do Son 1 Do Do

[kiterunner]

There certainly seem to be a lot of workhouse admission and discharge records for Albert Buttivant coming up on ancestry's index, including this admission for the family, including Albert, when Mary Ann was a baby:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60391/31363_A106306-00061/10479251?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dWHR3332%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3dlondonadmindisc h%26so%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dalb*%26g sfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3db*t*v*nt*%26gsln_x%3d1%26MSAV%3 d2%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket %3drstp&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[kiterunner]

In the criminal records on Findmypast, Ann Buttivant, married, was tried in Jan 1877 for "stealing a chain and other articles, the property of James Prior, in his dwelling house", and found not guilty:
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=tna%2fccc%2fho140%2f039%2f00320&parentid=tna%2fccc%2fho140%2f039%2f47967&highlights=%22%22

[Margaret in Burton]

Bullivant is a name locally here. OH wondered on a connection.

[Lynn the Forest Fan]

I enjoyed it. I hadn't seen any spoilers and foound the connections to Cromwell very interesting. I knew Gregory had married well, but not the he had married a Seymour!. Liked the workhouse bit, but thought the way he delivered the news to the old lady wasn't very sensitive, I guess she must have been prepared for it. Didn't find the civil war bit interesting though.
I hadn't seen him on tv much, but didn't think much to him or his wife

[Guinevere]

I can't stand him. I usually turn off any programme he's in because he makes me grind my teeth with annoyance at his "cheeky chappie" routine.

I persevered, however, and the programme itself was interesting.

Lord Tollemoche is Hon Chairman of Suffolk Family History Society and he seems like a lovely chap.

I've been an admirer of Thomas Cromwell since the Henry VIII programme with Keith Michell. Very clever man.

I agree with Lynn about the wife.

[Olde Crone]

Haven't seen the programme yet but I couldn't help doing the sums when I read Kate,s synopsis.

King Edward was one of his 22xggfs, making him just one of the 4 million ancestors he had at that point. No more and no less important genetically than any of the others and genetically insignificant now anyway.

OC

[BlueSavannah]

I really enjoyed the program. I'm not the biggest fan of Danny Dyer but he doesn't grate on me like he does some people. I just thought he and his wife were joking around at the end.

I didn't know much about Thomas Cromwell at all so I found the info about him really interesting. I also enjoyed the part about the civil war but then, again, I didn't know much about it previously.

I said to my husband that they must have prepared the elderly relative for the information that Danny was going to tell her. I know Danny is a bit straight on the point, but I don't think he would even just sit down and tell her such sensitive information outright like that.

[ElizabethHerts]

Haven't seen the programme yet but I couldn't help doing the sums when I read Kate,s synopsis.

King Edward was one of his 22xggfs, making him just one of the 4 million ancestors he had at that point. No more and no less important genetically than any of the others and genetically insignificant now anyway.

OC

OC, I was saying exactly the same thing to OH last night about how many 22x grand-parents we have. I suspect by that stage many of them appear twice or even more across the tree!

[maggie_4_7]

I am confused they said Albert's mother's name was Janet Wing but on all the census Charles' wife is Hannah, Albert is 9, Hannah is 20 years younger than Charles. I must admit watching the program I was a bit distracted.

Edit: checked the GRO and Hannah Martha the oldest child on census has MMN Wing on baptism mother's name Hannah.

[Merry]

I haven't watched this, but (following on from Maggie's post) Charles seems to have married Mary Ann Frampton in Mortlake Surrey in 1830 (LMA) and had children with her up to the mid 1840s. Then he has children (inc Albert, but also including others back to 1847 from memory) with Hannah Sarah Wing, but Mary Ann is still living in 1861 and has the older children with her. Her occ is listed as wife of super cargo clerk. In 1851 Charles is with Mary Ann at Bankside, Saint Saviour, Surrey. His date/place of birth is 1804-5/Norwich, the same as when he's with Hannah Sarah on the following census.

[Merry]

Mary Ann died in 1867, so after Charles, hence no marriage between him and Hannah Sarah Wing.

[kiterunner]

I am confused they said Albert's mother's name was Janet Wing but on all the census Charles' wife is Hannah, Albert is 9, Hannah is 20 years younger than Charles. I must admit watching the program I was a bit distracted.

Edit: checked the GRO and Hannah Martha the oldest child on census has MMN Wing on baptism mother's name Hannah.

I've found the image of Albert's birth certificate on iPlayer and it says mother Hannah Sarah Buttivant, formerly Wing. Danny does say Hannah Sarah on the programme, so I must have written it down wrong. Sorry! I will correct the synopsis.

[kiterunner]

Pausing on the image of Danny's family tree at 24:17 on the iPlayer, I see that Albert Buttivant's great-grandmother's name was Sarah French. Maybe that's where the family story about a French connection originated, and it got garbled over the generations?

[Merry]

Here is Hannah Sarah in 1851 saying she is the lodgers wife, but Charles isn't there as he was listed with Mary Ann! Hannah Sarah has a son aged 9 as well as the dau Hannah aged 3 who was registered as a Buttivant.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/MDXHO107_1546_1546-0531/401976?backurl=%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1851%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db %26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dhann ah%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dbut*%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy %3d1848%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d1%26gskw%3dmiddles ex%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[maggie_4_7]

I've found the image of Albert's birth certificate on iPlayer and it says mother Hannah Sarah Buttivant, formerly Wing. Danny does say Hannah Sarah on the programme, so I must have written it down wrong. Sorry! I will correct the synopsis.

Okay Kate, thanks.

I thought I heard someone say Janet on the program to be honest but like I say I was a bit distracted.

[maggie_4_7]

Here is Hannah Sarah in 1851 saying she is the lodgers wife, but Charles isn't there as he was listed with Mary Ann! Hannah Sarah has a son aged 9 as well as the dau Hannah aged 3 who was registered as a Buttivant.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/MDXHO107_1546_1546-0531/401976?backurl=%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1851%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db %26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dhann ah%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dbut*%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy %3d1848%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d1%26gskw%3dmiddles ex%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Yep I found the 1851 for Charles and was a bit confused looks like he had two families.

[maggie_4_7]

Here is Hannah Sarah in 1851 saying she is the lodgers wife, but Charles isn't there as he was listed with Mary Ann! Hannah Sarah has a son aged 9 as well as the dau Hannah aged 3 who was registered as a Buttivant.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/MDXHO107_1546_1546-0531/401976?backurl=%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1851%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db %26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dhann ah%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dbut*%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy %3d1848%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d1%26gskw%3dmiddles ex%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Actually I think they are two different people he names his father John on this marriage, if it is the one on the 1851 with a Mary Ann.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=bcx1412&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=lmamarriages&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Charles&gsfn_x=0&gsln=*vant&gsln_x=0&msbdy=1805&msbpn__ftp=Norwich,%20Norfolk,%20England&msbpn=86107&msbpn_PInfo=8-%7C0%7C0%7C3257%7C3251%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C5276%7C86107% 7C0%7C0%7C&cpxt=1&cp=4&MSAV=1&uidh=ek4&pcat=34&fh=0&h=3168857&recoff=8%209%2028&ml_rpos=1

Actually this marriage is well out it is 1864!

[kiterunner]

Here is a banns record for Hannah Sarah Wing and James George King 1843 at St Mary Newington:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_199174-00545/5947427?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
Banns of Marriage between James George King Bachelor and Hannah Sarah Wing Spinster a Minor both of this Parish were published (no dates given, all crossed through.) Charlotte King the Mother and Joseph Charles King the Brother of the undermentioned James George King forbad the Banns on account of the latter being already married & has six children, & further stated him to be on unsound mind. ... Charlotte King resides at 3 Sarah Place - Kingsland Road.

[kiterunner]

Here is some unseen footage though I would say only worth bothering with if you are a Danny Dyer fan:
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/danny-dyers-unseen-wdytya-footage

[kiterunner]

Actually I think they are two different people he names his father John on this marriage, if it is the one on the 1851 with a Mary Ann.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=bcx1412&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=lmamarriages&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Charles&gsfn_x=0&gsln=*vant&gsln_x=0&msbdy=1805&msbpn__ftp=Norwich,%20Norfolk,%20England&msbpn=86107&msbpn_PInfo=8-%7C0%7C0%7C3257%7C3251%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C5276%7C86107% 7C0%7C0%7C&cpxt=1&cp=4&MSAV=1&uidh=ek4&pcat=34&fh=0&h=3168857&recoff=8%209%2028&ml_rpos=1

That's a different couple; that Charles is a Bullivant, not a Buttivant.

This seems to be Charles Buttivant's marriage to Mary Ann - 5 Jul 1830 at Mortlake, Surrey, and her maiden name was Frampton:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31419_A104105-00007/10199796?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/32076430/person/19218847254/facts


If it is the same Charles, it would explain why he didn't marry Hannah (and would fit with her previous choice of husband!) There is a public tree on ancestry which focuses on the Buttivant and Gosnold families and which shows both Mary Ann and Hannah Sarah with the same Charles.
http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/32076430/person/28055864125/facts

[kiterunner]

The online GRO birth index has the birth of a William James George King Apr-Jun 1843 Bermondsey, MMN Wing. I think he could be Hannah's son "W. Buttivant" from the 1851 census, because of that banns record from 1843. (Although that ancestry tree shows Hannah having a daughter born 1843 in Westminster, but not much evidence shown for that.)

[kiterunner]

If Charles and Hannah didn't marry, that explains why Danny seemed so stuck when he got Albert's birth certificate (when he was still trying to trace a French connection with the Buttivants) - I thought the obvious thing to do next would have been to get Charles and Hannah's marriage cert to see who Charles's father was.

[maggie_4_7]

That's a different couple; that Charles is a Bullivant, not a Buttivant.

This seems to be Charles Buttivant's marriage to Mary Ann - 5 Jul 1830 at Mortlake, Surrey, and her maiden name was Frampton:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31419_A104105-00007/10199796?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/32076430/person/19218847254/facts


If it is the same Charles, it would explain why he didn't marry Hannah (and would fit with her previous choice of husband!) There is a public tree on ancestry which focuses on the Buttivant and Gosnold families and which shows both Mary Ann and Hannah Sarah with the same Charles.
http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/32076430/person/28055864125/facts

Yes I realised that afterwards and edited my post, it is a god awful name to search.

It irritates me when they jump from one birth certificate onto the grandfather's connection to a prominent family without first giving a bit more information on the parents first!

Hannah's and Charles' circumstances and the fact he died 1865 would go some way to show why they became so very poor!

[kiterunner]

Yes I realised that afterwards and edited my post, it is a god awful name to search.

It irritates me when they jump from one birth certificate onto the grandfather's connection to a prominent family without first giving a bit more information on the parents first!

Yes, me too.

Not quite as bad as whoever it was where they zoomed all the way back to Charlemagne, but I do prefer it when they focus on more recent ancestors.


I said to my husband that they must have prepared the elderly relative for the information that Danny was going to tell her. I know Danny is a bit straight on the point, but I don't think he would even just sit down and tell her such sensitive information outright like that. I thought the same. Considering how upset Danny got when he found out about it, surely he would have expected that Mary Ann's daughter might find it even more upsetting. And it can't be that he knew Sylvia wasn't the sort to get upset about that kind of thing, since he said he hadn't seen her since he was a kid.

[maggie_4_7]

If Charles and Hannah didn't marry, that explains why Danny seemed so stuck when he got Albert's birth certificate (when he was still trying to trace a French connection with the Buttivants) - I thought the obvious thing to do next would have been to get Charles and Hannah's marriage cert to see who Charles's father was.

Sorry I missed this post, yes exactly but they wouldn't find one and so would have been more interesting from a social aspect re: their dire straits and the second family angle. How did Charles and why did Charles come to London and what was his father's James occupation in Norwich and how he met Ann Gosnold. They must have known about the other family.

I would have found that more interesting than the eventual royal connection to be honest.

The road they travelled to end up in the East End as paupers from the life in Norfolk would be so much more interesting and also what happened to the first family's descendants.

They have just dumbed it down, oh look cockney geezer descended from a King! Who cares I am more interested in the actualities of how and why they got where they got. Oh and he irritated me beyond reason that cockney rubbish is all an act and over done to the extreme its a caricature and I find it offensive to be honest.

I have found the last couple of series very disappointing in fact I still have 3 from the last series I haven't even watched yet!

[ElizabethHerts]

The British Newspaper Archive has more on Danny Dyer's working-class roots:

http://blog.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/2016/11/25/diving-into-danny-dyers-past-learning-more-from-newspapers/?utm_campaign=news&utm_medium=email&utm_source=bna&utm_content=1004535&utm_term=BNA-CAM-Newsletter-241116-N&dclid=CJjTrtXyw9ACFZWMdwodRcsJXw

I haven't had time to investigate yet.

I did find him very irritating, although the episode was interesting.

[Ann from Sussex]

They have just dumbed it down, oh look cockney geezer descended from a King! Who cares I am more interested in the actualities of how and why they got where they got. Oh and he irritated me beyond reason that cockney rubbish is all an act and over done to the extreme its a caricature and I find it offensive to be honest.

I did find him very irritating, although the episode was interesting.

Agree with Maggie and Elizabeth and everyone else who was both irritated and interested at the same time. I don't watch East Enders; I did know that he plays a character in it but I knew nothing else about him. Can't say I took to him or his family....except for Auntie Sylvia who I thought was a real old time Eastender.

[kiterunner]

The British Newspaper Archive has more on Danny Dyer's working-class roots:

http://blog.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/2016/11/25/diving-into-danny-dyers-past-learning-more-from-newspapers/?utm_campaign=news&utm_medium=email&utm_source=bna&utm_content=1004535&utm_term=BNA-CAM-Newsletter-241116-N&dclid=CJjTrtXyw9ACFZWMdwodRcsJXw

I haven't had time to investigate yet.



None of their newspaper clippings in that blog entry actually seem to mention Danny's ancestors; it's just general stuff. Probably because they have very few local London newspapers on there, which I keep moaning about.

[maggie_4_7]

They have just dumbed it down, oh look cockney geezer descended from a King! Who cares I am more interested in the actualities of how and why they got where they got. Oh and he irritated me beyond reason that cockney rubbish is all an act and over done to the extreme its a caricature and I find it offensive to be honest.

I did find him very irritating, although the episode was interesting.

Agree with Maggie and Elizabeth and everyone else who was both irritated and interested at the same time. I don't watch East Enders; I did know that he plays a character in it but I knew nothing else about him. Can't say I took to him or his family....except for Auntie Sylvia who I thought was a real old time Eastender.

BIB

Yes she was, poor thing looked very shocked at all the attention, that is the sort of East Ender I am used to.

[kiterunner]

None of their newspaper clippings in that blog entry actually seem to mention Danny's ancestors; it's just general stuff. Probably because they have very few local London newspapers on there, which I keep moaning about.
Though, having said that, one that I found:

Morning Post 29 Jan 1861
CAUTION.- I hereby give notice, for the third time, that I will not hold myself responsible for any debts my wife, Mary Ann, may incur, having been separated upwards of 12 years.
CHARLES BUTTIVANT, 3, Mint-pavement, Tower-hill. Witness - Charles Buttivant, jun.

(although they were together in 1851!)

[maggie_4_7]

Though, having said that, one that I found:

Morning Post 29 Jan 1861
CAUTION.- I hereby give notice, for the third time, that I will not hold myself responsible for any debts my wife, Mary Ann, may incur, having been separated upwards of 12 years.
CHARLES BUTTIVANT, 3, Mint-pavement, Tower-hill. Witness - Charles Buttivant, jun.

(although they were together in 1851!)

ooh well done what a great find.

So much more interesting than the civil war.

[Ann from Sussex]

ooh well done what a great find.

So much more interesting than the civil war.

Agree. We have all traced relatives who lived in the 19th century and studied their lives so we can relate (sorry, no pun intended) to things like that but not many of us have got back to the Civil War. The Danny Dyer WDYTYA was interesting to me because I had ancestors living in Poplar and Mile End at the same time as his family. In fact, some of mine spent time in the same workhouse. Wonder if they knew the Buttivants?

[kiterunner]

You could check the admission and discharge records to see whether they were in the workhouse at the same time, Ann.

[kiterunner]

Oh dear, the Wikipedia entry on the Seymour family makes it look somewhat doubtful that they were actually descended from Edward III:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_family

More info on here:
https://royaldescent.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/weakest-link-in-jane-seymours-royal.html

[Guinevere]

Cor Blimey, Guv.

[vita]

Would you Adam & Eve it?

[Anstey Nomad]

Stone me!

[maggie_4_7]

That's a turn up for the books.

[Mary from Italy]

If anyone's interested in Thomas Cromwell, Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel is excellent.

[Lynn the Forest Fan]

Also Bring up the Bodies, which is the first book she wrote about him.

[Ann from Sussex]

Also Bring up the Bodies, which is the first book she wrote about him.

It's the other way round Lynn....Wolf Hall comes first. Two of the best books ever and the tv serialisation was excellent. I am looking forward to the final book in the trilogy but am not holding my breath. I think it is already about two years overdue.

[Lynn the Forest Fan]

You are probably right. I am waiting fpr the third as well, but didn't mention it as I thought I might have been mistaken about it being a trilogy as there is no sign of the third book!

[Jill]

Perhaps they'll cast Danny in the TV drama when it's eventually made. He'd want to be a Thomas Cromwell supporter though, walk on part as part of his household?

[Ann from Sussex]

Perhaps they'll cast Danny in the TV drama when it's eventually made. He'd want to be a Thomas Cromwell supporter though, walk on part as part of his household?

So long as he doesn't insist on being Thomas Cromwell - I don't somehow think he would be as good as Mark Rylance!