View Full Version : GRO Online Historic Indexes
Finally found my grandfather's missing baby brother, who died not long after birth, using the maiden name search - brilliant. It's a bit restrictive in that you can only do one gender at a time and +/-2 years, but it's a very welcome addition nonetheless. You need to sign in to see the search form.....https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
"Following successful development and testing, the GRO online
historic birth and death indexes are accessible via our
website from today, 3 November. The indexes have been created
using GRO records which have already been digitised, and
cover birth records more than 100 years old, and death
records up to 1957 (the latest digitised year we hold).
The online indexes, will provide a customer enhancement,
making the indexes more readily available for searching
than the microfiche we currently make available via the 7
public libraries / records offices across England and
Wales. This service will be in addition to, rather than
replacing the facility to search the indexes at the 7
sites. The full set of indexes will still be held and
updated at these sites.
The online index also provides enhancements, to that on the
microfiche, where possible showing mother’s maiden name for
births prior to 1911, and age at death for those records
prior to 1865. There is also the facility to purchase a
certificate.
The index is accessible free of charge via the GOV.UK
website which links to our online ordering site."
Oooh, fantastic!!
If only I knew who I should be looking for!
Oooh, fantastic!!
If only I knew who I should be looking for!
Well if you know from the 1911 (or in my case, a piece of information from my great aunt) that some children have died and you can't identify them, this is perfect for finding them. OH has also finally found middle names for great uncles with common names, as their mother had a less-common maiden name.
kiterunner
03-11-16, 21:57
Wow, that's great news! I hadn't heard anything saying it was on its way. Thanks, Rick.
Wow, that's great news! I hadn't heard anything saying it was on its way. Thanks, Rick.
Edit - they don't seem to have managed to give their page a name which will show on the browser tab and when it is saved to Favourites yet! Strange.
You're welcome. It came as a complete surprise to me too. I guess they could do something really useful with the marriages, if they choose to. I'm really pleased to be able to close off some of those niggling mysteries which could have taken several expensive certificates to solve otherwise.
kiterunner
03-11-16, 22:16
I'm still waiting for my "verification code" to arrive so that I can actually do a search.
kiterunner
03-11-16, 22:17
Of course it arrived as soon as I had posted that!
kiterunner
03-11-16, 22:18
Oh, I see that you have to specify the surname, so you can't search on mother's maiden name only as I was planning to do!
Well if you know from the 1911 (or in my case, a piece of information from my great aunt) that some children have died and you can't identify them, this is perfect for finding them. OH has also finally found middle names for great uncles with common names, as their mother had a less-common maiden name.
Yes, I realise that, but my mind is a blank as to where I've had this situation and I've never created a list of difficult families. No doubt I have hundreds of people I should be looking for, but don't remember!
You're welcome. It came as a complete surprise to me too. I guess they could do something really useful with the marriages, if they choose to. I'm really pleased to be able to close off some of those niggling mysteries which could have taken several expensive certificates to solve otherwise.
Just adding the bride's father's surname would be a good start! Perhaps they are not allowed to add information that isn't included in the index for other years though?
I'm still waiting for my "verification code" to arrive so that I can actually do a search.
I didn't need any code - I don't know why not.
Oh, I see that you have to specify the surname, so you can't search on mother's maiden name only as I was planning to do!
Perhaps they will allow that later?
ElizabethHerts
04-11-16, 07:05
Oh, I see that you have to specify the surname, so you can't search on mother's maiden name only as I was planning to do!
Yes, that stumped me too. The lady for whose birth I'm searching was illegitimate and I wanted to see if she had been registered twice.
kiterunner
04-11-16, 07:30
The GRO must have kept this very quiet, as I see that even Chris Paton has nothing about it in his blog yet.
I know I shouldn't look a gift-horse in the mouth, but the search facility seems very old-fashioned for 2016. I suppose it was cheaper that way.
Just Gillian
04-11-16, 07:32
Excellent news.
Thanks Rick!
kiterunner
04-11-16, 08:33
Ooh, I've found a cousin of my grandfather's who I didn't know about before, one who died in infancy.
Edit - and another!
I have started looking at my tree, beginning with person 1. I am now on person 67 out of about 9,000, but I have to go out now :(
So far I have confirmed it's extremely unlikely my great-grandmother was registered for birth, as I had long suspected. Nothing else yet......
The new search facility times out if I try anything other than exact spellings :o
kiterunner
04-11-16, 08:51
The phonetic variations facility is very vague anyway (apparently "Harrison" is phonetically similar to "Brown"!)
I don't know where to start .............! :D
BlueSavannah
04-11-16, 11:29
The search engine is poor but I am not complaining at all, this is a very welcome feature. I've now managed to find all 9 King children to my great x 2 grandparents including the 5 deceased ones.
kiterunner
04-11-16, 11:40
Wow, just found another cousin of my grandfather's who we didn't know about, another one who died in infancy. Although both surnames are pretty common, his burial was on Deceased Online with the same address that the family were at on the census. I didn't even think there was a gap between children in that family as he comes in between two children who were slightly less than 2 years apart!
I'm finding so many tots that I didn't even know existed, because they were born and died between censuses. It's really quite sad!
Wow, thanks for this, Rick! Confirmed in seconds some missing babies.
Mary from Italy
04-11-16, 13:04
A very interesting update from the LostCousins newsletter:
Digital copies of certificates to be trialled
From 9th November the GRO will be trialling a new service under which uncertified PDF copies of previously digitised entries in the birth and death indexes will be available at a reduced price of £6 (a paper certificate costs £9.25). The years of coverage for historic entries are as follows:
Births: 1837 to 1934
Deaths: 1837 to 1957
(It will also be possible to order copies of birth, marriage, and death entries which were originally recorded in digital format - I believe this system commenced in 2007.)
The trial will last for only 3 weeks, but may close earlier (only 45,000 PDFs will be made available at this price). My guess is that those 45,000 PDFs will be sold very, very quickly - which is why I have rushed out this special edition newsletter!
http://lostcousins.com/newsletters2/specialnov16news.htm#PDFtrial
Well I looked to see if my grandfather had any siblings Feb 1901 and it doesn't even give his birth. I have his certificate so know he was registered.
kiterunner
04-11-16, 16:49
I have found some of mine mistranscribed, Julie; could that be the problem? If you try one of the "similar" surname options and leave out first name, but put in the name of the district, maybe he will come up. Also try "female" in case the gender was mistranscribed.
At last it looks like I might be able to find my grandmother's brothers - I was always told there were 10 of them, but to date I've only found 5. Fairly common name, plus a casual attitude to baptisms and a tendency to pass children round the family at census time and describe them as son or daughter of whoever they were staying with has made it really hard.
It looks like I've identified all of them, but I won't be able to resist getting the certs to be sure I'm right. :D
I tried similar names and without a first name and no place of birth without any luck
Mary from Italy
05-11-16, 01:52
Have you found his birth on FreeBMD or Ancestry?
Yes Mary and I have the certificate.
I got excited about this - I've not done much family history this year as I've been trying to sell my house, buy another and other things too. But guess what? I went to log in and couldn't remember my password. So I asked for a new one, which arrived immediately - and it didn't work! Now waiting for another one!
Obviously being able to order digital certificates at a reduced price is great, but could someone tell me what - aside from that - the advantage of this new GRO search is?
Am I missing something very obvious? (Quite likely) How are you finding people you hadn't yet been able to?
Well, finally logged on and after a to and fro of emails I have a verification code. But the site is being very slow - I can only assume all of you lot are clogging it up with your searches!
But I must have missed something - you have to put the year of the event +/- 2 years, so you need to be fairly certain when it happened (I am wanting a death that happened between 1901 and 1911).
No marriage index either so still no joy with my great-grandmother's 2nd nuptials.
So, if you don't know when someone was born or died you're out of luck? :(
James, if you are looking for a death in the GRO indexes before 1866 there are no ages at death recorded which can make finding the right cert difficult, also problems when you don't have the mmn for births before 1911 Q3. These new indexes provide this additional info.
kiterunner
05-11-16, 16:04
So, if you don't know when someone was born or died you're out of luck? :(
You just have to keep repeating the same search with a different year range.
Depending on the frequency of the names you could do a search on another site (FreeBMD/Ancestry etc) to see the years/quarters there are entries that need further investigation and just search those years/quarters on the new site.
maggie_4_7
05-11-16, 20:16
Just found another brother and sister for my grandmother. I knew there were more but couldn't pick them out without the maiden name search.
Mary from Italy
05-11-16, 21:20
Yes Mary and I have the certificate.
In that case you can enter the volume and page numbers in the search and omit all the other information except the surname; if the surname isn't too badly mistranscribed you should find him, and the spelling of the surname and mmn may help finding the siblings.
Mary from Italy
05-11-16, 21:23
You just have to keep repeating the same search with a different year range.
Unfortunately you have to specify the gender, so you have to run the same search twice, once for male and once for female.
It is doable, though, if you enter dates 5 years apart and search for that date +/-2.
maggie_4_7
06-11-16, 07:10
So, if you don't know when someone was born or died you're out of luck? :(
You just have to keep repeating the same search with a different year range.
James
What Kate said it is a bit tedious also you have to do it twice for female and male (but what Mary in Italy said) - but that is what I did - also be careful with the maiden name selection on births I would go with similar sounding first.
My Wingfield was the worst - I eventually found all and more and the variations on maiden name was Winfield, Winkfield, Winefield - I had to use phonetic eventually.
You don't have to enter the maiden name though, if you don't want to. Just look at the results and choose the ones you can see that fit!
maggie_4_7
06-11-16, 07:54
You don't have to enter the maiden name though, if you don't want to. Just look at the results and choose the ones you can see that fit!
That's true I did that as well LOL
You have to ensure you have a system though because I was midway through searches and forgot whether I had done Male before or Female before and had to do them again just in case.
The problem I had also was a lot of mine in London were born over 4 or more reg districts as well.
Especially when I was being constantly interrupted by someone. :D
Sue from Southend
06-11-16, 11:47
I've discovered that my 2x gt grandmother gave birth to and buried four children between 1861 and 1871. There may also have been another in the early 1870's but I can't see the death yet. This was all in the Shoreditch area of London one of the poorest areas.
The same family had a couple of children in Lambeth, one born 3rd qtr 1853 was registered as Female Butcher and her death in the same qtr was registered as Female Butcher. Am I right to assume that she must have to drawn breath/lived for a few days to be registered? And does anyone know whether there was a charge to register births and deaths at this time?
kiterunner
06-11-16, 12:10
She would have to have drawn breath, yes, but she would not have had to live for a few days. There was no charge for registering the event but there was a charge if they wanted a certificate.
Sue from Southend
06-11-16, 13:26
Thanks Kite - I just wondered because they were obviously a very poor family and still carefully registered each and every event.
I had 128 married women on my tree with no maiden name. I have managed to reduce that number to 104. My favourite was a lady who had her last of many babies registered in Q3 1837 (the Q civil reg was introduced)
rainbowdragon
07-11-16, 02:50
I've put names to so many children that died before the 1911 census, and added a few more I never knew existed.
Yesterday, I found that a 4th great uncle had four children by his first marriage, adding to the one daughter that I knew about. I've found the deaths of two of those children, just leaving one child as a mystery still.
So, if you don't know when someone was born or died you're out of luck? :(
James, when I started doing research, in the dark ages at Somerset House, you were only allowed to search for five year periods, and paid the princely sum of 1s 3d - presumably for the wear and tear on the indexes.
The number of time I got things wrong: assuming my search should start 9 months after the marriage......
I later learned to cheat, and entered my search period AFTER I had found the entry. :D
maggie_4_7
07-11-16, 18:34
It has been a gold mine for me as I am sure it has for most people.
Found more babies for a lot of people, sad thing is as soon as I find them I know they died which is why I didn't know about them in the first place.
But at least they have a place on my tree now, they are not forgotten.
maggie_4_7
07-11-16, 18:36
James, when I started doing research, in the dark ages at Somerset House, you were only allowed to search for five year periods, and paid the princely sum of 1s 3d - presumably for the wear and tear on the indexes.
The number of time I got things wrong: assuming my search should start 9 months after the marriage......
I later learned to cheat, and entered my search period AFTER I had found the entry. :D
... and yes be creative with years :)
Things are not and were not all they seemed.
I hunted for years for my great grandmother Martha Louisa Sayer's birth reg I knew she was born in abt 1862 but could not find her reg or her baptism because I assumed she was born after the marriage and registered as a Sayer but no she wasn't she was born 16 January 1861 registered as Martha Louisa Wingfield father William Wingfield mother Emma Wingfield formerly Sayer.
When in reality it was Emma Wingfield and William Parker Sayer who got married 21 August 1862 how Emma got away with it I do not know.
Martha Louisa was eventually baptised on 9 March 1874 in the name Sayer at aged 13.
Irony is in the 1950's, Martha Louisa always known as Louisa hated the name Martha lived to a great age she did, when someone had a baby out of wedlock she went completely and utterly into one - oh the irony.
But we didn't know this then.
The PDF option is now live!
Well I've just ordered a PDF and did the survey even though the PDF hadn't arrived.
I thought delivery was going to be much quicker even by return email but was wrong.
Only on looking afterwards at the confirmation did I see the delivery date of 16 Nov.
So will be cheaper but no quicker than normal.
I ordered 5 this morning & have received one of them already so hopefully the turnaround time will be quicker than what is quoted on the order.
kiterunner
09-11-16, 12:43
I thought I might as well give it a try too. I think that is the first time I have had to complete a reCAPTCHA on a payment screen!
I thought that was abit strange Kate.
I think there might be a problem with their email system, I've just checked on 'my orders' & all 5 are showing as dispatched today with times but I have only received one email with one PDF.
Think there's an overload problem with the site too - as I can't get past the search before the site is lost.
This has satisfied me that births I could not find in the old fashioned way were definitely not recorded in the GRO indexes. Though it does puzzle me that I have children missing in the middle of families.
kiterunner
10-11-16, 12:47
Yes, same here - I always wondered whether OH's g-grandfather was missing from the index because it was one of those typed-up copies of an old handwritten page, but he isn't on the new online index either so I guess he wasn't registered (or the GRO never received their copy of his registration).
The "Lost Cousins" newsletter says that children whose parents weren't married are only listed under one surname in the new index, with mother's maiden name shown as a dash, even if both surnames appear on the actual birth registration. The birth certificate which I have ordered as a PDF is what I thought was the registration of my 2xg-grandfather's brother, but his parents were married and there is a dash for MMN, so maybe it isn't him at all. Will have to wait and see when I get the PDF.
Mary from Italy
10-11-16, 13:15
This has satisfied me that births I could not find in the old fashioned way were definitely not recorded in the GRO indexes. Though it does puzzle me that I have children missing in the middle of families.
Me too; my great-grandmother's birth has never been found, although I have the date from the family bible and her baptism, and all the previous and subsequent children were registered.
I just hope she wasn't adopted...
The "Lost Cousins" newsletter says that children whose parents weren't married are only listed under one surname in the new index, with mother's maiden name shown as a dash, even if both surnames appear on the actual birth registration.
I can't get my head around why they have done that?
kiterunner
10-11-16, 13:51
Me neither.
Mary from Italy
10-11-16, 19:33
No, it's very irritating.
They also mention in the Lost Cousins newsletter that if you're searching by volume and page number, bear in mind that the volume number needs two digits, so volume 5 is 05.
I haven't found that search useful so far, though, because you still need to enter a surname, year and gender.
I've been using the volume number to narrow down results to areas/counties.
Mary from Italy
10-11-16, 22:02
Ah, that's not a bad idea.
This has been so helpful. I've identified a 4 x great grandmother's death and got the certificate and proved my great grandfather's birth wasn't registered nor any of his siblings.
One thing other people may also have noticed - it seems to me where an infant's death would have been recorded in months, it appears in years. I've three examples of this so far
kiterunner
11-11-16, 07:20
Yes, that has been mentioned in the Lost Cousins newsletter, Asa. They said the same can happen for an age in weeks or days too.
Interestingly - I ordered a birth on Wednesday and looked at my orders early this morning and it said it had been despatched but no sign of it.
kiterunner
11-11-16, 10:03
Hmm, mine is the same, Julie. I hadn't checked it before. It's a shame they don't have a link to the PDF download on their site.
I've had 10 emails from the GRO this afternoon. I ordered 5 PDF's & have received them all twice, plus the one from the other day, so three copies for that one. Think I need to check what I've been charged for them all!
I'm still waiting for my one from Wednesday that they said had been despatched. I ordered another one in the early hours today but no sign of either.
kiterunner
11-11-16, 16:21
My email isn't working at the moment so I can't check. :(
Edit - managed to check; nothing has arrived yet.
Oakum Picker
11-11-16, 17:51
I ordered 5 at 9.30 on Wednesday & my order has been 'In Progress' since 11.12 that day!!
maggie_4_7
11-11-16, 18:06
Interestingly - I ordered a birth on Wednesday and looked at my orders early this morning and it said it had been despatched but no sign of it.
I ordered a couple on Monday 7/11 no sign, probably been inundated to be honest.
PDF choice wasn't available on Monday although it would be the route I will choose in future and I expect it would be easier for them admin wise.
Although when I went on yesterday the quickest route for PDF by email was 18/11 1pm!
Well the first of mine has arrived this morning (Sunday?)
maggie_4_7
13-11-16, 08:56
Actually just after I posted that mine arrived.
Found another child, a son, for my Great Great Grandfather and Grandmother John Kendall and Caroline Cook died at 2 weeks old 1844.
I think I have found another since finding that son.
kiterunner
13-11-16, 09:10
Mine has arrived and it was an illegitimate child (as suggested by the dash for MMN), not the person I thought it was.
That's annoying Kate.
Mine didn't have a middle name which was interesting and the Registrar's district was mis--transcribed as Bromley (Kent) not Burnley (Lancashire) which I've already told them about.
ElizabethHerts
13-11-16, 09:22
Very frustrating, Kate.
The website isn't working for me at present. I do a search and it just times out, as it did yesterday evening.
kiterunner
13-11-16, 09:25
Very frustrating, Kate.
Well, not really, Elizabeth. I only ordered it because of the low price and to see how the PDF system works; it wasn't one I particularly needed.
I ordered 11 pdfs yesterday. Some said delivery 22nd and some 23rd. Any idea when I might get them? I've been waiting at least two years to order them, but now I've done that I want them NOW! lol
maggie_4_7
16-11-16, 07:27
I ordered a PDF on Monday 14th November it said delivery 21st November no sign yet.
Sue from Southend
16-11-16, 07:49
I ordered a PDF on 10th November with delivery by 17th - still waiting!
Oakum Picker
16-11-16, 07:54
I ordered 5 on the 9th & they arrived first thing (8.a.m.) on the 14th - due 16th. Whether they will be slower or faster now it's been going a week, remains to be seen. Some seemed to get theirs on the day they ordered. Mine were all deaths if that makes a difference.
kiterunner
16-11-16, 08:15
Mine was due on the 14th and arrived on the 13th, I think.
Thanks all. Sounds like I will have to be patient!
Merry - My second birth pdf is still in progress - but the first said despatched but still had to wait a few days after that.
Not very patient are we? prefer the Scotlandspeople where you get the image there and then lol.
I'm obviously a bit dumb, but where do you look to see the orders are in progress etc?
kiterunner
16-11-16, 12:52
Log in, then click on "View a previous order".
This link may take you directly to it but you will need to log in:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/order_history.asp
The "COL" number should be in the email you received confirming the order, but you can ignore that and just put in a date range.
Perfect - thank you Kate. I couldn't see for looking!
They now have a notice up apologising for delays due to heavy demand.
The pdf I've ordered today has an estimated delivery date of 25th November.
kiterunner
17-11-16, 18:40
I'm impatiently waiting for Zoemcdougall to receive the birth certificate she ordered 10 days ago! Hopefully she will be on here to tell us as soon as it arrives. I don't know whether she ordered a paper copy or a PDF.
maggie_4_7
21-11-16, 16:20
Oh dear still in progress PDF ordered 14th November expected receipt 21st November still in progress.
I got the others by mail quicker!
I ordered 11 PDF's on 14/11/16 & received them over a few hours this morning (due date).
Ordered another one 15/11/16 which is due tomorrow.
maggie_4_7
21-11-16, 17:10
I ordered 11 PDF's on 14/11/16 & received them over a few hours this morning (due date).
Ordered another one 15/11/16 which is due tomorrow.
Oh right it is you holding the queue up then :p
Oh right it is you holding the queue up then :p
lolol!! :d:d:d
Oh right it is you holding the queue up then :p
Nah, must be someone else .... I've got another list on the go tho :d
ElizabethHerts
23-11-16, 16:57
I've got 4 PDFs due today, and no sign of them yet.
I have 3 due today which have also not arrived yet.
I think they've been a little overwhelmed by the pent-up demand!
I had one due yesterday which hasn't arrived yet.
Sue from Southend
23-11-16, 17:26
Mine arrived on the day stated but although this "digitisation" is a huge leap forward for the GRO it does feel very antiquated nowadays to have to wait over a week for a pdf!
I had five due yesterday and six today, but no sign of any yet. Maybe when Phase 1 ends on 30th (at the latest) they will catch up?!!
At least you can still order: I'm used to extremely long waits (I seem to remember 13 weeks at one stage!)
And has anyone mentioned that you get given middle names?
I just wish I could remember the really important certificates that I would buy when I had the funds!
Actually, I'm interested that although they have brisk take up, we haven't reached 45k yet. Must be lots of people who reckon they don't need the pdfs. Or prefer certificates!
I expect there are loads of people who know nothing about it, Phoenix!
I also wish I could remember the interesting certs I have wanted over the last year or two!
I've just received 4 of 5 of my first order with the second set probably now due tomorrow (well, they were originally due 22nd (first batch) and 23rd (second batch)).
Needless to say, the most interesting of the first batch is the one they didn't send!
Received the last of the original batch and all but one of the second batch today.
The interesting one wasn't very - the coroner decided the cause of death was 'visitation of God', so not foul play, but not very conclusive!
I'm getting a refund for one pdf. This is part of the email they sent me:
We have been unable to process your application, please refer to the paragraph below.
*
Due to the nature of the original image, we are unable to produce a PDF of the entry you require.* You can apply for a certificate for which a new order would be required.
I'm thinking if I order a cert from the GRO they may hand write what they think it says on their poor quality image, so I will try and order a copy from the local office.
Olde Crone
29-11-16, 16:17
That's interesting Merry as one of the reasons for abandoning the DOVE project was that the equipment being used could not cope with many of the records - misaligned, curved pages, indistinct writing and so on. Reassuring to know they were telling the truth about at least one record!
OC
kiterunner
20-01-17, 10:37
Phase 2 of the PDF Trial has started, but I doubt that they will reach 15,000 orders:
PDF Pilot Phase 2
Since the 19th January, we have been trialling a premium PDF service for registration records. Records will not be immediately viewable, but emailed as a PDF.
The pilot is in 3 phases. Phase 2 of the pilot, is a premium PDF service available for applications made between 8am and 1 pm. We aim to deliver within 3 hours
Each premium PDF costs £45, and is available for the following England and Wales records held by GRO:
Births, Marriages and Deaths: 1837 on
Civil Partnerships: 2005 on
Full details are in 'About the PDF Pilot' page
Phase 2 closes on 8 February or when 15,000 PDFs have been ordered, whichever is sooner. Details of Phase 3 (PDFs of non-digitised records) will be announced shortly.
Might be useful for heir hunters I suppose!
I wouldn't pay £45 for a pdf but the heir hunter companies would probably do so.
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