View Full Version : Who is my grandfather, Thomas Mcdermott?
Apologies for coming back so soon with another pile of confusion and apologies for it being Ireland, but I couldn't sleep last night for going over and over this. I've had a fresh look this morning, but I'm still none the wiser. Maybe I'm now overthinking this, or missing something obvious.
Firstly, as my dad had died before I started genealogy, I knew nothing about his Irish family other than his parents' names, Thomas and Mary. Dad's sister however told me that Thomas's mother was called Bridget and that he was illegitimate. She had tried to get a copy of his birth cert when she was in Ireland, and was told there was no birth registration for him. She did find a baptism record in Carrick on Shannon which confirmed he was illegitimate.
Ages ago, I found Thomas McDermott's army records, dated 11th January 1908. They give Thomas's age as 19 years 10 months, putting his birth around March/April 1888. His address is given as Kiltogert, Carrick on Shannon.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n313/terrilast/mcdermott/thomas%20mcdermott4_zpsica35tjd.jpg (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/terrilast/media/mcdermott/thomas%20mcdermott4_zpsica35tjd.jpg.html)
As you can see his next of kin is slightly ambiguous. The first line says "mother" and what looks like Bridget next to it, but then it states his grandmother as being Bridget, but under the name Bridget, is very lightly written Margaret. Not surprisingly, no father mentioned.
in 1911, a 37 year old Bridget Delaney is living on The Green, Boyle (the address on the army record) with children William aged 16 and Margaret aged 14, which (more or less) confirms that a now married Bridget is the mother, and possibly, Margaret is the grandmother.
In 1901, Bridget Delaney is in Kiltogert, Carrick on Shannon as follows:
Gallagher William 65 Male Head of Family Roman Catholic
Gallagher Margaret 65 Female Wife Roman Catholic
Delaney Bridget 28 Female Step Daughter Roman Catholic
McDermott Thomas 12 Male Grand Son Roman Catholic
Delaney William 6 Male Grand Son Roman Catholic
Delaney Margaret 4 Female Grand Daughter Roman Catholic
Delaney Patrick 2 Male Grand Son Roman Catholic
Places - names - a perfect fit on all accounts! So obviously, after Thomas's birth, Bridget married a Delaney.
I found William and Margaret Delaney's births - father is Patrick Delaney and mother's maiden name should be Bridget McDermott. But it's not. It's Bridget Keegan. :eek:
To be continued ................
Starting with the Keegan connection.
Bridget Keegan married Patrick Delaney in Boyle, Roscommon in 1893. As she is barely 21 when she marries, it is unlikely she was married before, plus she is “spinster” on marriage reg. She names her father as William Keegan. As she is “stepdaughter” to William Gallagher; the head of household, then his wife, Margaret, must have been married before, presumably to a Keegan.
On census, Bridget names her birthplace as Sligo, (1873) but there is no birth there for her, nor any Keegans with a mother called Margaret.
I found a birth for a Bridget Keegan in Boyle, Roscommon in 1873, but to a Thomas Keegan, mother Mary, not Margaret, but maiden name McDermott ..........!
Alternatively, this was William Gallagher’s 3rd marriage – having previously been married to a woman before Margaret, who was previously married to a Keegan, or whose maiden name was Keegan and she had Bridget out of wedlock. Bit convoluted!
Where does Thomas McDermott fit into all this? Where does the name McDermott even come from? If Bridget Keegan/Delaney has no connection with him, why has he put her address on his army from as next of kin?
I can't think straight any more and I've no idea where to go from here. This is my name and so is awfully close to home! I'm starting to have doubts about my own identity here! :d
kiterunner
08-09-16, 15:00
So we have birthplaces etc, this is my transcription of the 1901 census entry:
1901 - house no 99, Carrick on Shannon Town, Co Leitrim
William Gallagher Head of family RC 65 Glazier Married born Sligo
Margaret Gallagher Wife RC 65 Married born Sligo
Bridget Delaney Stepdaughter RC 28 Married born Sligo
Thomas McDermott Grandson RC 12 Scholar born Leitrim
William Delany Grandson RC 6 Scholar born Roscommon
Margaret Delany Granddaughter RC 4 born Roscommon
Patrick Delany Grandson RC 2 born Roscommon
and the Gallaghers in 1911:
William Gallagher Head of family RC 80 No occupation Married born Co Sligo
Maggie Gallagher Wife RC 77 Married 30 years, children born to present marriage none, born Co Sligo
Thomas Hanley Boarder RC 65 Pedlar Single born Co Roscommon
and the Delaneys in 1911:
Bridget Delaney Head of family RC 37 Widow born Co Sligo
William Delaney Son RC 16 Serving 4th Conn Rgs Single born Co Roscommon
Margaret Delaney Daughter RC 14 Scholar Single born Co Roscommon
kiterunner
08-09-16, 15:24
Terri, have you managed to find Thomas's baptism (which you mentioned in post #1) in the online RC records, please?
kiterunner
08-09-16, 15:27
Never mind, this looks like his birth registration under the surname of Keegan:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02494/1925018
Superintendent Registrar's District Carrick on Shannon, Registrar's District Jamestown, Counties Leitrim & Roscommon
Date and place of birth: 1888 16th Oct, Workhouse, Carrick-on-Shannon, County Leitrim
Name: Thomas
Sex: M
Name and Maiden Surname of Mother: Bridget Keegan
Informant: John McGreevy, Occupier, Union Workhouse, Carrick on Shannon
When registered: 18 Oct 1888
Never mind, this looks like his birth registration under the surname of Keegan:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02494/1925018
:eek::eek::eek:
Omg, well done Kate! No wonder my aunt couldn't find his birth reg under McDermott.
Even more bewildered now though. How on earth did he become a McDermott?
kiterunner
08-09-16, 15:33
I am so wishing that I knew which registration districts were in which county!
kiterunner
08-09-16, 15:33
:eek::eek::eek:
Omg, well done Kate! No wonder my aunt couldn't find his birth reg under McDermott.
Even more bewildered now though. How on earth did he become a McDermott?
Maybe his father was a McDermott?
Does this help with districts?
http://www.findmypast.com/articles/help-and-advice/genealogy-in-ireland/3-births-marriages-and-deaths
(click on the map)
I considered that, but it seemed a bit odd. That doesn't happen in England with illegitimate children .................
On his marriage certificate, he puts "Thomas McDermott" as father, but I just assumed he put that name rather than admitting there wasn't a father.
He was a proud man by all accounts, not sure he'd have liked admitting to having been born in a workhouse out of wedlock
Maybe his father was a McDermott?
That's what I thought. After all, if the later children had mmn Keegan you might expect him to be registered with that surname surely?
I am so wishing that I knew which registration districts were in which county!
They have these things called Townlands. Total nightmare to sort out
So, he was registered as Keegan, but presumably (as aunt found his baptism) baptised as McDermott.
Interesting!!! I feel quite shaken! His baptism record isn't on line. I might have to write to Carrick and see if I can beg a copy.
kiterunner
08-09-16, 15:45
I considered that, but it seemed a bit odd. That doesn't happen in England with illegitimate children .................
I have plenty of examples of it in my family tree!
kiterunner
08-09-16, 15:48
Does this help with districts?
http://www.findmypast.com/articles/help-and-advice/genealogy-in-ireland/3-births-marriages-and-deaths
(click on the map)
Thanks, Merry.
I have plenty of examples of it in my family tree!
Do you?? My (plenty of) illegitimates keep their mother's maiden names. Ok ........... I'm still quite stunned by this situation.
I'm wondering if his father was around - if he knew about Thomas. I'm wondering all kinds of things now. :confused:
kiterunner
08-09-16, 15:53
I would really like to see that baptism record! Shame it isn't in the online records.
I will try to get hold of it.
Thanks so much Kate, obvious, but I'd never have thought of looking for him under Keegan.
I'm really relieved to have an answer - I was quite worried by this. Still am a bit weirded out! I will now go searching for one Thomas McDermott. Why didn't she marry him?? Was he also in the workhouse? So many questions.
kiterunner
08-09-16, 16:53
There is a Thomas Joseph McDermott of Carrick on Shannon, born about 1863, RC, farmer and then hotel proprietor, unmarried and living with his mother (the hotel proprietor before he was) in 1901 and married to a Mary E by 1911. He died in 1916, age 53, and admon was granted to his widow in 1917. His estate was £2,878, resworn as £4,168. If he was the father, maybe they didn't marry because they were from different classes?
Apparently Leitrim County Library has some minute books from Carrick on Shannon Union, which might have info about Bridget and Thomas:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/CarrickOnShannon/
There is a Thomas Joseph McDermott of Carrick on Shannon, born about 1863, RC, farmer and then hotel proprietor, unmarried and living with his mother (the hotel proprietor before he was) in 1901 and married to a Mary E by 1911. He died in 1916, age 53, and admon was granted to his widow in 1917. His estate was £2,878, resworn as £4,168. If he was the father, maybe they didn't marry because they were from different classes?
Apparently Leitrim County Library has some minute books from Carrick on Shannon Union, which might have info about Bridget and Thomas:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/CarrickOnShannon/
The Bush Hotel ...................... my Thomas worked there .........!!:eek:
kiterunner
08-09-16, 17:35
The Bush Hotel ...................... my Thomas worked there .........!!:eek:
Ooooooh.
LOL! The frustrating thing is, there is no-one left alive that would know, if anyone knew! My dad certainly didn't. If he knew his father was illegitimate, he never said.
I have photos of the hotel, my dad had them, seems it was the family local.
I wonder if the hotel Thomas left a will when he died??
kiterunner
08-09-16, 18:02
LOL! The frustrating thing is, there is no-one left alive that would know, if anyone knew! My dad certainly didn't. If he knew his father was illegitimate, he never said.
I have photos of the hotel, my dad had them, seems it was the family local.
I wonder if the hotel Thomas left a will when he died??
No, because the will calendar said Administration:
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014920/005014920_00287.pdf
I have just loved reading this.:)
kiterunner
08-09-16, 18:10
There are some blog posts from a few years ago, about the history of the Bush Hotel on here:
http://bushhotelartist.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/historical-research.html
This one has a comment from a descendant of the hotel McDermotts though it doesn't have his contact details:
http://bushhotelartist.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/history-of-carrick-on-shannon.html
I wonder whether he has an online tree somewhere that does have a way to contact him.
kiterunner
08-09-16, 18:15
Well, there is a public tree on ancestry which has Thomas Joseph McDermott, son of Arthur and Ellen, so you could try sending a message to the tree owner to ask whether he knows anything, or has any photos of the McDermotts? It may not be the same person who posted on the blog as he has a different name, but could be worth a try. Let me know if you can't find it.
I can only hope that one of the family is into genealogy and if there is a link, it's documented somewhere. For Bridget to baptise her son McDermott in the town, someone or everyone must have asked questions! My family were very well known there.
Well, there is a public tree on ancestry which has Thomas Joseph McDermott, son of Arthur and Ellen, so you could try sending a message to the tree owner to ask whether he knows anything, or has any photos of the McDermotts? It may not be the same person who posted on the blog as he has a different name, but could be worth a try. Let me know if you can't find it.
Found it and contacted him. Thanks Kate x
Progress - so far, none! :d But ..................................
1. I contacted the guy on Ancestry who had the McDermotts in his tree. He is related to them and was (initially) terribly keen to help. I told him the tale and heard absolutely nothing more from him. Maybe he knows something, or maybe he objected to the words "illegitimate" and "workhouse" in the same sentence. (He was awfully posh")
2. I contacted the parish church in Carrick on Shannon. They were so helpful and tried so hard, but, there is no baptism record for Thomas there. They did tell me that the Carrick workhouse was responsible for a large area, including Roscommon. On census, Thomas is born in Boyle, Roscommon.
3. So, I've written to the parish church in Boyle, Roscommon asking them if his baptism record is there. Not heard anything yet. (I had to use snail mail).
4. Contacted the main Leitrim library. Again, they have been amazing. One of the staff has "taken me on" personally and is going to find out anything and everything she can.
5. Contacted the Carrick on Shannon history society. Another fantastic group of people who have pledged assistance. I'm to come up at their next meeting!
So, fingers crossed that out of this, and these wonderful Irish people, I get some answers. I will let you know ;)
kiterunner
16-09-16, 17:10
Thanks for keeping us up to date, Terri.
I am researching the McDermott families of County Leitrim, and I have a page on Arthur McDermott's & Ellen Barry's family (including his son Thomas Joseph McDermott) @
https://www.adkins.ws/family.php?famid=F6527 ~~ I welcome any input or inquiries, please contact me via the link at the bottom of any of my pages or direct, Thomas.R.Adkins#gmail.com
Sorry to resurrect this thread from all those years ago, but at long last, I know all about my grandfather Thomas Keegan/McDermott after contacting a relative of my dad's, a very old lady, but she knew the whole story!
Yes, he was illegitimate, son of Bridget Keegan. His father was Thomas Joseph McDermott, manager of the Bush Hotel and Bridget was a chambermaid! (We thought there was a conection, didn't we Kiterunner?) The man "accepted responisiblity", attended the baptism and as was traditon then, my Thomas adopted his father's name, McDermott. Of course the difference in his and Bridget's social circumstances meant there would be no marriage!
I have now gained great uncles and aunts and great great grandparents having traced the family back to the 1700s.
The moral is, never give up!
Well done, Terri!
Did you ever get a copy of Thomas's 1888 baptism?
Interesting that when he married in 1909 he said his father was a labourer. I suppose it might have been awkward to say otherwise, even though he used his father's surname.
There's an article about the funeral of Thomas senr in the Donegal Independent 28 October 1916 (FMP)
Also, a death notice for his mother, Leitrim Advertiser 08 February 1906. Nothing that I could see for Arthur in 1868.
Nothing that I could see for Arthur in 1868.
Oh, there is, in the Roscommon & Leitrim Gazette 11 January 1868. Search Arthur M'Dermott.
Thanks Merry. No I haven't got a copy of the baptism yet, it didn't happen in their home town (I wonder why??? ;) ) which is why I couldn't find it, and we suspect it may have taken place in Donegal.
As you have noticed, there is masses of info to be found on the extended family.
Apparently there was apparently some kind of major "falling out" between the Keegans and the Bush McDermotts a few years after my Thomas was born, such that Bridget, Thomas's mother and her mother were done for assault on a woman who had married into the Bush McDermotts.
I am still digging!
Forgot to say, we have 2 DNA connections too!
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