View Full Version : Who was Albert Eighteen?
I do have a theory on this, but I'd like to ask for others' opinions so as to perhaps broaden the field somewhat.
One of my grandfather's brothers was named John Bernard Eighteen, and he died of his wounds at the 2nd Australian General Hospital on 25/06/1917. He is buried at the Wimereux Communal Cemetery near Calais.
I mention this because I have a photograph of him (https://i.imgur.com/D0qu1EZ.jpg) taken shortly before he died. Well, we think it is of him; the original photograph (I was e-mailed a scan of it) belongs to my mum's cousin, who believed the photo to be of 'Uncle Bert'. I am not sure whether this is a long-held assumption or the photo has this written on the back, but you can see it is marked (as is another photo of another brother) with a blue cross, so I have always taken this to mean that it's definitely one of the brothers. (No, I don't know who added the cross, but very likely my mum's cousin).
On its own, that perhaps isn't too much of a mystery (we've all come across relatives with unusual or not particularly obvious nicknames), but I have this article (https://i.imgur.com/33QlvEk.jpg) as well, from the same source. I found it interesting for several reasons:
1) The man standing bears an uncanny resemblance to my grandfather at that age;
2) My mum's cousin originally marked the article 'Albert Eighteen or Uncle Sid?' (my grandfather);
3) I can't seem to find any potential match for an Albert or Herbert Eighteen who was killed around that time;
4) Combined with the above photo of John Bernard aka 'Bert', I've been tempted to put two and two together...
It isn't my grandfather; he joined up in 1919 and I have his MoD papers. However, several of his brothers looked very similar and with the quality of the article and the fact he's wearing a cap - obscuring his face somewhat - it wouldn't at all surprise me to discover that it was John Bernard.
What do you think? I've spoken to a couple of relatives about this, including one who is writing a book of accounts of soldiers who were killed during the Great War (John Bernard Eighteen being one of his case studies) and he thinks that the uniforms and badges in the above photo indicate men of the Royal Field Artillery, which John Bernard was in. However, the man standing in the newspaper article - apologies for the poor quality scan, but it's all I have - appears to be wearing the distinctive Royal Berkshire (https://i.imgur.com/E4vx2Gr.jpg) badge. You can't really make out the details, but the general contours seem to fit.
Can anyone find a plausible alternative for the man in the article? Obviously I don't know why a man named John would have been nicknamed Albert or Bert, and if indeed his name was Albert Eighteen then I have no idea who he was, but I am certainly keen to establish the identify of the man in the article... if possible.
The author believes that Albert Eighteen died in 1918, whereas John died in 1917. It is of course possible that with the passage of time the author is mistaken about the date, but of course if there was another Reading Eighteen who was killed in 1918 then that may perhaps solve the mystery.
I realize that my thought process here may come across as somewhat fuzzy, but, given the circumstantial evidence, I am almost certain that the group regimental photograph is of John Bernard Eighteen (why would his mother have a photograph of - among other siblings - a distant cousin we haven't been able to find on the family tree?) and I am sure that the man in the article looks more like my grandfather than John Bernard (hence the 'Uncle Sid?' note); however the Albert/Bert link is very frustrating. I don't like coincidences.
Thoughts?
What about the bit in the article that says he lived near John Eighteen's stables at Orts Road? Does that fit with John Bernard?
Your John Bernard was born in 1895, but Reginald James Randall was born 23 Aug 1899. The article made me expect they would be the same age.
John Bernard will have lived down Leopold Road, which is very near. I'll have to e-mail another relative re Orts Road, as I know his grandmother's family lived there.
My mum's cousin originally marked the article 'Albert Eighteen or Uncle Sid?' (my grandfather);
I'm confused as to why your mum's cousin would suggest the article was about 'uncle Sid' if he didn't die in WW1??
kiterunner
04-09-16, 17:28
If the photo was taken in early 1918 then it can't be someone who died in 1917. I wonder how sure R J Randall was of the date of the photo, though.
I'm confused as to why your mum's cousin would suggest the article was about 'uncle Sid' if he didn't die in WW1??
He's not suggesting that Sid died in 1918 (we certainly wouldn't be having this conversation if he did ;)), simply that the man in the photo - whoever he was, whenever he died - looked a lot like Sid, and could very well have been one of his brothers. I think he was making the point that it could have been my grandfather, such was the similarity. I mean that in the sense of if it was any other photos, and you didn't know that they'd died in 1918.
If the photo was taken in early 1918 then it can't be someone who died in 1917. I wonder how sure R J Randall was of the date of the photo, though.
Yes, indeed, and exactly my point. If he died in 1918 then obviously it isn't John Bernard, but the article was published in 1989 I think (?), so a faltering memory on the part of the author would not be surprising.
Perhaps we could see when Reg Randall joined up? He wasn't born until Aug 1899 so probably towards the end of WW1. I was thinking the date might be the most reliable part of what he remembers.
kiterunner
04-09-16, 17:35
CWGC only lists three Eighteens who died in WW1 and none of them in 1918.
Good lord, the man lived to 102!
Just another name to consider...
My Great Grandmother wanted to call my Great Uncle Bert, but apparently the vicar wouldn't allow this and he had to be christened (and birth registered) as Bertie.
He's not suggesting that Sid died in 1918
No, I know that. He says the man in the article died in 1918 and your mum's cousin wrote 'Albert Eighteen or Uncle Sid?' by it. Why did she mention Uncle Sid?
No, I know that. He says the man in the article died in 1918 and your mum's cousin wrote 'Albert Eighteen or Uncle Sid?' by it. Why did she mention Uncle Sid?
He*
I did add an edit to that post just after I posted it. Sorry, Merry. :o
'I think he was making the point that it could have been my grandfather, such was the similarity. I mean that in the sense of if it was any other photos, and you didn't know that they'd died in 1918.'
OK.
I haven't come across any Eighteens in the Berks Regiment who look like they might have been called Bert, ignoring whether they were killed or not.
I can't find any Military records for Reginald James Randall in the Berkshire Regiment either!
I can't find any Military records for Reginald James Randall in the Berkshire Regiment either!
Well, he is wearing a different hat badge to the man stood next to him. It's possible he wasn't in the Berkshire Regiment.
Oh, I assumed! lol
I've not found anything for him (Reg) regardless of regiment.
kiterunner
04-09-16, 18:32
Could he be Reginald J Randall, Private no 6906814 in the Rifle Brigade and then Royal Signals Regiment, on this medal index card?
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1262/30850_A001284-01667/4444278?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dWHR2065%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3dmedalrolls%26so %3d2%26pcat%3d39%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dreg*%2bj%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dr*nd*l%26gsl n_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dv m5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
The correspondence section says 297654 Lieut R J Randall, 5 Coy 2 AA Gp (M) Sigs Unit, Edith Ho, Fareham, Hamps - 27/1/44.
If he served in WW2 then his WW1 army papers shouldn't be online (if they survived) as they would still be with the MOD. I was looking for him on the 1939 Register earlier and couldn't find him but I found a married Eva Randall who could be his wife (a public ancestry tree had him marrying an Eva) and that would fit with him serving in WW2.
Sounds likely. I'm guessing he didn't join up until he was 18 (Aug 1917), and that was after John B Eighteen died.
(a public ancestry tree had him marrying an Eva)
Was that linda_breadmore's tree? I've just sent her a PM. A stab in the dark I know, but assuming she's a relative she may at least be interested in seeing the article. Perhaps the name Eighteen may ring a bell with someone.
kiterunner
04-09-16, 19:50
No, it wasn't. If you search public trees for Reginald James Randall marrying Eva Mobey, it should come up.
Very interesting reply!
'I can confirm Cptn Reg Randall is seated on this photo, and Albert Eighteen would have been the person standing, as Reg didn't have any children we are the surviving relations. Reg visited the Eighteen's when visiting Reading on an annual basis (used to stay with my family) its nice to see the article and would say the article is correct as Reg was particular sharp and luckily didnt have any memory disfunctions. his address is correct for the year. Reg has some relations in New Zealand whom he visited very occasionally, I think his sister Adelaide or Brother's family was out there. I often wonder what became of his service medals. Reg was born and lived around Cemetery Junction area of Reading, and visited he home in Liverpool Road again in his late 90's. the Eighteens I believe lived around Southcote area I'm not sure if one of the boys worked in Frosts (fish shop) union street (smelly alley) reading, back in the 1980's hope that helps. sorry to hear that your search for grave has not been successful I have found names may not have been typed correctly. I am having problems finding Reg's service details and awards, I need to find his service number first - I think.'
Did that help you?
Remember to ask if Reg served in WW2 as, if he did, his army papers (all of them) should be at the MoD.
In my latest reply I have mentioned that very point, Merry. :)
The only potential suspects I can find are:
- Herbert Willie aka William Herbert (1892 - 1977);
- Albert Samuel (1892 - 1963);
- Albert Victor (1902 - 1976).
The last one is pushing it a bit, though.
Obviously in all three cases they survived the war, and so this assumes that Reg was mistaken about Albert having been killed in 1918 -- which does seem likely, given that there are no records that could match this.
EDIT: Wait a minute...
Births Dec 1890
Eighteen Bertie Alfred Reading 2c 333
Can't find a marriage or death for him, although a couple of family trees have him down as having died in 1958. No sources, though.
Looks like may have married May Bloomfield. Their children are on a public tree. Hmm.
Births Dec 1890
Eighteen Bertie Alfred Reading 2c 333
The 1939 Register has Alfred Eighteen b 16 Sep 1891 with wife May.
Ah, those children are listed with them so definitely him.
There's a death for wife May in 1983 but I don't see one for Bertie Alfred. The death for Albert in 1958 probably is him as there's no birth for an Albert around 1891 (Albert 1958 was listed as aged 67 at death).
Yeah, I assume that they are the same person. He's Albert Eighteen on his marriage record, too.
I presume none of these possible Berts are siblings of John Bernard?
I presume none of these possible Berts are siblings of John Bernard?
I can almost certainly rule that out. I know the five brothers who fought in the War (two died) and have photos of four of them; John I am less certain of, and current theory is that the photo I posted in the first post of this thread is him (with his regiment) but I cannot prove this. I don't think that 'Uncle Bert' (John's photo) and Albert Eighteen are the same person in terms of comparing them visually in those two examples, and John died the year before the photo in the article was taken. I suppose we can't absolutely rule it out, though.
l may as well just paste an e-mail I sent a relative earlier, as it sums up the present situation quite well:
'It now seems very likely that the man in the newspaper article I sent you is indeed my grandfather. Taking the author at his word this seemed unlikely as Sid did not join up until January 1919 and the author claimed the photo to have been taken in early 1918. However, it has been pointed out to me - and these are the kind of details you and I may overlook - that the man standing is wearing spurs and a crop (?), and the badge on his hat is very likely that of the 3rd Hussars, not the Royal Berkshire Regiment.
These details (among others, such as the collars) point towards cavalry rather than infantry, and I know that Sid was in the 3rd and 7th Hussars. Combined with the very good likeness (despite the poor quality image you can recognize the facial structure and slight smile) it seems far too much of a coincidence, and I have yet to read anything of any other Eighteens having served in a Hussars regiment. Perhaps you have the advantage of me there.
Having discussed this with a relative of the author (I am trying to locate the original photograph) and having had the article studied on a military forum (www.britishbadgeforum.com) I have come to the conclusion that the author of the article was likely a school friend of Sid's and, writing 70 years after the photograph was taken, has mixed him up with his brother John Bernard (the 'Uncle Bert' photograph) who we know was killed in 1917. They bore a resemblance and were from the same family, so I don't think it's an unlikely mistake for a 90 year-old to make whilst writing an article 70 years later.
In that respect, I can see why [name] queried the photograph of Albert Eighteen and thought it was Sid. Having pieced some of these things together, I think he is probably right. As I've said before, I don't like coincidence, and that man being a cavalry soldier who looks exactly like my grandfather and being from the same family doesn't sit well with me. What do you think? If the author meant early 1919 rather than early 1918 then it's a fit.'
I can't confirm anything 100% of course, but given the information I now have regarding his uniform and spurs (which I never noticed) I just don't see who else it could be.
And sometimes you just look at a photo and know, don't you? It seems a few people did before me, anyway.
Thoughts?
kiterunner
08-09-16, 17:38
If I look at photos of my own children when they were babies or toddlers, I'm not always sure which of them it is! (and I don't have any twins or triplets) So I can well imagine looking at a photo of a schoolfriend from decades previously and not being sure which of a set of siblings it is.
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