Help with Timothy London please

[WendyPusey]

My half sister is trying to find some information on her 3rd Great Great Grandfather Timothy London born c1805 Norfolk.

He married Mary Ann Sutton on the 12th October 1826 at Ranworth, Norfolk and had 6 children, the last Jedadiah born 1837 in the Workhouse, Lingwood, Norfolk.

Mary Ann remarried (William Brown) about 1840 as 1st child born in 1841 Ranworth, Norfolk. She assumes Timothy probably died about 1837.

She can't find any birth or death records for Timothy at all. Nothing.

I have looked as well but haven't found anything.

I wonder if anyone can see if they can find anything for her.

[kiterunner]

How does she know that Timothy was born in Norfolk, please, Wendy??

[Merry]

WIf your half-sister doesn't have Timothy's burial record, how does she know his rough year of birth?

is this the registration for her son born in the workhouse (with hopelessly mis-transcribed surname!<<< EDIT see post #5)?


Births Sep 1837
SUTTON Jedediah Blofield 13 17

What information does she have about his birth in the workhouse? Was it the birth cert or a baptism record or something else?

If Timothy was the father, he could have died before civil registration began.

The marriage for Mary and Wm Brown is Q2 1840.

[Merry]

Ranworth's burial records are not online after 1812. I don't know about surrounding parishes.

[Merry]

lol I didn't take in that Sutton was Mary's maiden name, so perhaps (probably) Timothy was not the father of Jed.

[kiterunner]

FreeBMD has a marriage between William Browne and Mary London Apr-Jun 1840 Blofield district (which was the district covering Ranworth). Vol 13, page 45.
Ah, it comes up on FamilySearch as 26 Apr 1840 at Ranworth but gives Mary's surname as Landen. I haven't found an image yet.

[Merry]

The last baptism I can see with Timothy named as the father was in 1833 for Hannah London. So, Timothy may have died between 1832 and 1840, but probably before 1837.

[kiterunner]

There are two mentions of Mary in the Blofield Poor Law Union's minute books:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-698W-6N8?i=117&wc=M6V6-936%3A161088401%2C161257601%2C161247401%2C16109500 1%3Fcc%3D1824706&cc=1824706

(Apr 1838) p 176 The Revd L B Foster called the attention of the Board to the circumstance of Mary London a pauper discharged from the House last week having had a cloak nearly destroyed in the house by mice during the time she was in it, and the Master having been called and corroborated the statement it was agreed that Ten Shillings be given her towards the loss and charged upon the Establishment, and that measures be immediately taken to exterminate the mice.

and the second mention is just the accounting entry for the 10 shillings, but it does give her name as Mary Ann London (and she is also listed that way in the index.)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-698W-2NQ?i=120&wc=M6V6-936%3A161088401%2C161257601%2C161247401%2C16109500 1%3Fcc%3D1824706&cc=1824706 Page 181.

The minutes are the only Blofield Poor Law Union records listed on FamilySearch, annoyingly.

[WendyPusey]

I think my sister got the information from the actual records in Norwich.

There were several London families in Norfolk, especially Ranworth area.

[Merry]

So do you know if she searched for a burial for Timothy and didn't find one or if perhaps she didn't look before 1837?

[WendyPusey]

She searched for a burial but I don't think she looked before 1837

[Merry]

FreeBMD has a marriage between William Browne and Mary London Apr-Jun 1840 Blofield district (which was the district covering Ranworth). Vol 13, page 45.
Ah, it comes up on FamilySearch as 26 Apr 1840 at Ranworth but gives Mary's surname as Landen. I haven't found an image yet.

I haven't found an image for the actual marriage, but the banns register is on fmp which confirms Mary's status as widow and William Browne's as single man, both otp. The register states banns were read on 26 April, 3 May and 10 May 1840, so either those dates have the wrong months or they were not married on 26 April!

The banns dates are Sundays, so I'm inclined to say they are correct and they married a bit later than Family Search suggests.

[kiterunner]

FamilySearch may have taken the date from the banns, I suppose.

[Merry]

Yes, I wondered if that was what happened too.

[WendyPusey]

Thanks for the information you have found, I'll pass it on to my sister.

[Mary from Italy]

FamilySearch may have taken the date from the banns, I suppose.

Unfortunately they do that.

The instruction for transcribers, when transcribing a banns register that doesn't show the marriage date, is to enter the date of the last banns (if I remember rightly) in the marriage field.

[Merry]

So does that mean a marriage record on FS might only be a banns entry and the marriage might never have taken place?

[WendyPusey]

Has anyone found anything on Timothy London? He's the one my sister is really interested in as she has nothing but his marriage to Mary Ann Sutton at the moment. She would like to get further back if possible.

[kiterunner]

I looked through the Ranworth Archdeacon's Transcripts around the first few years of the 19th century and didn't see any London baptisms, although 1805/6 wasn't in the AT's and I couldn't find Ranworth in the 1805/6 BT's. But it would help if we had his burial as it would hopefully give us his approximate year of birth. The Ranworth burials for 1832-1837 don't seem to be online, so I suppose it would need someone to go and look them up at Norfolk Record Office.

[Mary from Italy]

So does that mean a marriage record on FS might only be a banns entry and the marriage might never have taken place?

Yes, although if you look at the source film number you can probably see whether the entry comes from banns or marriages.

[ElizabethHerts]

Has anyone found anything on Timothy Daniels? He's the one my sister is really interested in as she has nothing but his marriage to Mary Ann Sutton at the moment. She would like to get further back if possible.

Do you mean Timothy London or Timothy Daniels, Wendy?

[WendyPusey]

Sorry I meant London. Have changed my post now. Thanks Elizabeth.

[Merry]

The genealogist seems to have Ranworth burials 1559-1854 but there's nothing on there for Timothy London 1835+/-5 years that I could see.

[Merry]

Check this out:

http://www.norfolkfhs.org.uk/nors/about/

[kiterunner]

Wendy, what were the names of all of Timothy's children, please, and were any of them named after Mary Ann's parents or siblings? Just wondering whether the names might give a clue to who Timothy's parents were.

[kiterunner]

Okay, I think I have found the rest of the children who came before Jedediah: Susanna 1827, James 1829, Mary Ann 1830, William 1832, and Hannah 1833. And Mary Ann sr was born about 1805 at South Walsham, Norfolk, so I guess she is the one christened 1804, daughter of Robert and Susannah?

So, as the first daughter was named after Mary Ann's mother, maybe the first son (James) was named after Timothy's father? There is a Robert London christened 3 Oct 1793 at Ranworth, son of James London and Mary Rayner, then James or John 1 Mar 1795, son of James London and Mary Rayner, residence Buckenham (according to FamilySearch, but I have now looked at the PR and AT images and can't see where they got Buckenham from). Then Charles 21 May 1797, Diana 10 Mar 1799, so I wonder whether Timothy could be a younger child in this family. Mary London age 75 (i.e. 75-79) is in Ranworth on the 1841 census, and there is a Mary London death registered Jan-Mar 1851 Blofield district which could be her. Have to leave it there for the night and come back to this tomorrow to see if we can find anything to prove or disprove that this is Timothy's family.

[kiterunner]

Ooh, but just before I go to bed, I see that there is a public tree on ancestry which has Timothy as a son of James London and Mary Rayner, but the source quoted is "Norcutt.ged" which I assume is a Gedcom file from someone else's tree. No baptism details shown. It does show a burial date for Timothy: 21 Dec 1834 at Ranworth, same source.

[Merry]

It does show a burial date for Timothy: 21 Dec 1834 at Ranworth, same source.


I wonder why that didn't show up on The Genealogist search?

[WendyPusey]

Great Kite. Thanks for that. I don't have Ancestry sub anymore but I'll tell my sister and she can look into it.

Thanks to everyone else too.

[kiterunner]

FreeREG has the marriage of Diana London to a Samuel Fisher 1 Sep 1822 at Ranworth, witnesses Timothy London and Judith London. I haven't found the image yet to confirm this.

Judith London was also a witness at Charles London's marriage to Maria Daynes, 12 Oct 1820 at Ranworth, along with James London.

So it's looking likely that Timothy and Judith are siblings of Robert, James jr, Charles and Diana, isn't it? Still looking for more info...

[kiterunner]

Ok, here are the images for both Charles's marriage and Diana's, on FamilySearch:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DT6S-HX5?i=5&wc=92BN-4HW%3A30077101%2C29373001%2C29397101%3Fcc%3D141659 8&cc=1416598

(image no 6 if it doesn't take you straight to it.)

I wonder whether Judith Lunnon who marries Aaron Amis 4 Nov 1822 on the right-hand page is the same person as Judith London? Given that the witnesses are Charles Lunnon and Maria Lunnon, I'm guessing so.

Edit - the banns for the marriage in Aaron's parish (Sea Palling, according to ancestry, or Waxham, according to FamilySearch) give her name as Judith London.

[kiterunner]

Judith doesn't seem too sure of her birthplace (or her name):
1841 census Judah 35 Norfolk
1851 census Judith 48 Palling, Norfolk
1861 census Judith 60 Boyton, Norfolk
1871 census Julia 70 Boyton, Norfolk
1881 census Julia 82 Palling, Norfolk

As they are living in (Sea) Palling on the censuses, I would have thought that Boyton is more likely to be her actual birthplace than Palling, except I can't find a Boyton in Norfolk at the moment. I was hoping her birthplace might give us a clue to Timothy's.

[Merry]

I can't find a Boyton in Norfolk at the moment.

Neither could I, but a high percentage of people on the census who say that's where they were born were registered in Blofield District.

[kiterunner]

Aha! I looked up some of those other people whose birthplace is down as Boyton on the censuses, and found likely baptisms for them at Beighton. So this is Judith's baptism:

Judith Lunning, 13 Mar 1803 Beighton, Norfolk, parents James Lunning and Mary Raynor.

Still nowhere with Timothy so I resorted to searching for a Timothy, son of James and Mary, baptised around the right time and there is a "Timothy Sunning" baptised 20 Oct 1805 at Woodbastwick, according to FamilySearch. Doesn't give mother's maiden name, so I will need to find an image to check whether it could be Lunning.

[kiterunner]

Here is the image on FamilySearch (image no 3 if the link doesn't take you directly to it):
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D4J3-5H2?i=2&wc=92BF-7M6%3A30445601%2C29359202%2C30535201%3Fcc%3D141659 8&cc=1416598

It's not very clear whether it is an S or an L but I should think it must be him. There is only one other "Sunning" entry for Norfolk on FamilySearch apart from Timothy, and quite a few Lunnings.

[Merry]

Well done Kate!! :)

[WendyPusey]

Well done Kate. That will keep my sister busy.
Thank you.

[Phoenix]

It's an arduous process, but the BTs are online on family search. Within the archdeaconry, they are arranged by parish, so by choosing the year and then the section covering Ranworth, you should be able to locate the burial.

[kiterunner]

Thanks for reminding me, Phoenix - I did try that yesterday but the images wouldn't load for me, and they still won't on FamilySearch, but I have managed to get it to load on ancestry.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/9854/MM9.3.1_2FTH-1-14263-2093-79?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fse arch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d9854%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing#?imageId=MM9.3.1_2FTH-1-14263-1503-72

If it ever does work on FamilySearch, it is Norfolk Bishop's Transcripts - Archdeaconry of Norwich - 1834 - O-S - image number 51. It is not very clear but it says Name: Timothy London, Abode: Ranworth, When Buried: Dec 21 1834, Age: 28.

The next entry, for the same burial date, is a James London age 6, and then on Dec 25 1834 is Mary Ann London age 5, both also of Ranworth.

It looks as though ancestry are using FamilySearch's index to the Norfolk Bishop's Transcripts and this bit hasn't been indexed yet.