tracing the Byrne's after 1841 census

[CuriousKat]

Hello all hope you are enjoying some bank holiday sunshine?

I'm still trying to find my Edward Byrne ;(
On one of Edwards Master & Mates certificate he lists his address as he lists his address as 18 Islington in Liverpool, on the 1851 census there is a James & Elizabeth Byrnes lodging there, Could be coincidence? i think i tracked these people to the 1841 census because the parents names & age match with the 1851 census
they lived at 175 Bostock St, Liverpool
all of them were born in Ireland.
James Byrne 45 Merchant b 1796
Elizabeth Byrne 40 b 1801
George Byrne 20 b 1821
David Byrne 20 b 1821
Margret Byrne 18 b 1823
James Byrne 15 b 1826
John Byrne 15 b 1826
Aiden Byrne 13 b 1828
Is it also a coincidence that Edward had a son called Aden??
Of note i have not been able to trace this family anywhere other than the 1841 census. My personal opinion is that if Edward was related to this family he was more than likely born in Ireland too but lied about his birthplace it would of afforded him better prospects to do so.
The family i think originated from Enniscorthy in Wexford Ireland & the parents were James Byrne & Elizabeth Doyle, i found a baptism entry for Aiden placing him.

Hope you can help

Jackie

[kiterunner]

For reference, this is the link to your other thread about Edward Byrne which says he was supposedly born around 1823, either in Liverpool or Ireland:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=24403

[kiterunner]

The other children (apart from Aiden) of James Byrne and Elizabeth Doyle baptised at Enniscorthy are: Patrick 1820, David 1821, Margaret 1822, James 1824, John 1826 (mother's name is down as Betty) and Mary Ann 1827, so no obvious gap for Edward to fit in. But maybe he is James's nephew? Or maybe just a coincidence.

[CuriousKat]

The other children (apart from Aiden) of James Byrne and Elizabeth Doyle baptised at Enniscorthy are: Patrick 1820, David 1821, Margaret 1822, James 1824, John 1826 (mother's name is down as Betty) and Mary Ann 1827, so no obvious gap for Edward to fit in. But maybe he is James's nephew? Or maybe just a coincidence.

Do you think its a waste of time trying to trace them? It just seemed a few to many coincidences to be random.

[kiterunner]

They are all such common names and I don't see how Edward could be James and Elizabeth's son, so yes, I do think it could be a coincidence.

[Merry]

I'm still trying to find my Edward Byrne ;(

Edward Byrne & was allegedly born in Liverpool in 1823, He was never on any UK census records as he was at sea for all of them (Merchant Navy) & around the 1860's he decided to make Japan his home. He was a Broker/Merchant had his fingers in lots of pies inc Kobe Gas Co & Kobe Ice Co.

On one of Edwards Master & Mates certificate he lists his address as he lists his address as 18 Islington in Liverpool, on the 1851 census there is a James & Elizabeth Byrnes lodging there, Could be coincidence?
Jackie

I've pulled together some bits from your earlier posts in order to ask a question the answer to which you may have already posted!

When you say he was allegedly born in Liverpool in 1823 I wondered where this information came from? I have looked at a lot of Merchant Navy records (though I've not yet come across the one mentioning 18 Islington, Liverpool) and I see there are records for numerous Edward Byrnes born around 1823 - birthplaces of Liverpool, Dublin, Co Wicklow etc with several different birthdates. I wondered how you were able to determine which record belonged to your Edward, leading you to believe he may have lied about his place of birth?

Secondly, what aspect of his life makes him "your" Edward? If you don't know who his relations are, other than his wife and son, how are you connected to him? (I'm in no way saying you shouldn't be researching him if he's not your blood relative; Just wondered how the connection works if there is one :D)

[Merry]

Off track a bit but I just came across this in the Manchester Evening News 29 January 1940:

Husband's Discovery
Mrs. Harriet Lavinia Byrne (57) of Princess Street, Altrincham was found dead in bed by her husband today.

I couldn't a continuation to this snippet anywhere (it was right at the bottom of a column) nor anything further on subsequent days.

[CuriousKat]

I've pulled together some bits from your earlier posts in order to ask a question the answer to which you may have already posted!

When you say he was allegedly born in Liverpool in 1823 I wondered where this information came from? I have looked at a lot of Merchant Navy records (though I've not yet come across the one mentioning 18 Islington, Liverpool) and I see there are records for numerous Edward Byrnes born around 1823 - birthplaces of Liverpool, Dublin, Co Wicklow etc with several different birthdates. I wondered how you were able to determine which record belonged to your Edward, leading you to believe he may have lied about his place of birth?

Secondly, what aspect of his life makes him "your" Edward? If you don't know who his relations are, other than his wife and son, how are you connected to him? (I'm in no way saying you shouldn't be researching him if he's not your blood relative; Just wondered how the connection works if there is one :D) I was hoping to tract the Irish Byrne's in the vain hope of finding a current member who maybe knew a little family history, i know it's a bit of a long loooooooooooooooooooooong shot! :p

Hi, Edwards son was called Aden Byrne whom was born in Kobe 1878, Aden was returned to the UK & eventually married Harriet Lavinia Warham, on the 1911 census you will see an adopted child William Presbury his name later changed to Edward Byrne whom married Sarah Jane Bone they had 1 daughter whom was my grandmother, before i started this journey new nothing other than Sarah Jane & Edward Jnr ( no one even knew he was adopted!) we could find no birth records for Edward etc. So i have know for some time that he was not a blood relative infact there are no birth records for Aden & i have my suspicions that he was probably not the biological child of Edward Snr! It has come to light recently though that Edward/William is in fact Harriet's nephew! ( a bit of a fling between upstairs/downstairs!) This was found out by finding a current family member.

On Edward's BT113 seamans ticket record he states he was born in Liverpool, his number is 259897 if that helps? The address is on the 1853 record cert No 3159.

I surmised that the family of Byrne's at the same islington address & the child named Aiden was too much of a coincidence & that as they were all born in Ireland It would make sense that Edward was as there are no birth records for Liverpool ( that i can see) but KiteRunner things it is a coincidence.

I saw the newspaper article too!! What an odd one, why print something like that? Slow news day???

Hope this helps?
Jackie

[Merry]

OK, I wondered about the adopted son. That all makes sense now.

I don't know if you have found a birth cert for him under a different surname, but I would take the suggested "upstairs-downstairs" relationship with a pinch of salt unless there is evidence from the cert that that's what happened. It was fairly commonplace that illegitimate children were said to be the son or daughter of someone of status when that was not true.

On Edward's BT113 seamans ticket record he states he was born in Liverpool, his number is 259897 if that helps? The address is on the 1853 record cert No 3159.


What I meant was, how do you know those records belong to your Edward and that he isn't one of the other Edward Byrnes of about the same age who were also merchant seamen?

Rather than feeling the Byrne's at 18 Islington were a coincidence, I had more trouble with accepting the family with youngest son Aiden were the same couple for definite! Did you ever find out what happened to James Byrne and his wife after they were at 18 Islington?

[CuriousKat]

OK, I wondered about the adopted son. That all makes sense now.

I don't know if you have found a birth cert for him under a different surname, but I would take the suggested "upstairs-downstairs" relationship with a pinch of salt unless there is evidence from the cert that that's what happened. It was fairly commonplace that illegitimate children were said to be the son or daughter of someone of status when that was not true.



What I meant was, how do you know those records belong to your Edward and that he isn't one of the other Edward Byrnes of about the same age who were also merchant seamen?

Rather than feeling the Byrne's at 18 Islington were a coincidence, I had more trouble with accepting the family with youngest son Aiden were the same couple for definite! Did you ever find out what happened to James Byrne and his wife after they were at 18 Islington?

I see, the connection between Aden & Edward in Kobe is easy to see in documentation, i have a researcher friend in Kobe & Capatain Edward Byrne's in Kobe of that era well there is only one! in a newspaper article reporting his death in mentioned his brief stint as captain of the clipper ship lightning, i called the archives department at the National Maritime museumfor some help & they were interested enough to do a little research for me & found with a cross match of age, & the lightning. There are holes, i can't find his apprentice records despite knowing the date & vessel he signed up to.

With regards to the the adoption story i was fortunate enough to trace Edward's half sister actually 2 of them are still alive & they both confirmed that there were rumors all of their lives but when sorting out their fathers effects after his death they found proof. It was surreal talking to them as they knew my Edward, they also remember Aden & Harriet!

By coincidence i am somewhere near the Dorset/Somerset border! :d

This link may prove interesting
http://www.meiji-portraits.de/meiji_portraits_b.html#20090527093402531_1_2_3_104 _1

[Merry]

in a newspaper article reporting his death in mentioned his brief stint as captain of the clipper ship lightning, i called the archives department at the National Maritime museum for some help & they were interested enough to do a little research for me & found with a cross match of age, & the lightning. There are holes, i can't find his apprentice records despite knowing the date & vessel he signed up to.


Did the National maritime Museum manage to tie the Lightning to his number 259897? That's the important bit. Otherwise I don't see how they could know which Edward Byrne he is, with regard to birthplace and dob.

I found these other two/three with similar dobs:

74434 b Dublin 24 Aug 1821
79233 b Arklow, Co Wicklow 24 Aug 1821 (same as the Dublin dob! lol)
376631 b Dublin 5 Jul 1824

There are also three further merchant navy men named Edward Byrne b 1819, 1820 and 1826.