View Full Version : Who was Frances Marshall, born c. 1852 in New South Wales?
I came across a post about some 19th century relatives that poses a mystery. The post says that there is an entry in the UK 1871 census for Henry Marshall, at Clapham Road The Lodge, Bedfordshire, born in 1821 at Mauritius, married to Mary C Marshall (also born at Mauritius c. 1836), and with 9 children, aged 2 to 15. It also says that there is also listed a niece, France Marshall, aged 19, born in New South Wales, Australia, so born c. 1852.
I have not been able to read and decipher the original record, but if this information is accurate, then who were the parents of this Frances Marshall?
Henry had 4 brothers.
The oldest, William, was living in London then.
The second, Edward, was a Naval Officer, who spent time in the Pacific, so could have visited Australia. But his only recorded marriage was in 1860.
The third, Charles Henry Marshall, moved to Australia in 1847, but lived in Queensland, not New South Wales. As far as I know, his only recorded marriage was to Charlotte Augusta Dring Drake, in 1865. They had 6 children, none named Frances.
The fourth brother, Thornton,was a surgeon in the Army, who died in 1861. My records show that he had one daughter, also not named Frances.
Are there records in Australia that could explain this?
I think the entry for Frances says N S Wales Adelaid (sic), but Adelaide is in South Australia.
There's this birth reg, which isn't great for year!
1855 MARSHALL Frances father William MARSHALL mother Frances Bridger KEDWELL Adelaide 5/99
Oh there's also a listing under the mother's surname:
1855 KEDWELL Frances William MARSHALL Frances Bridger KEDWELL Adelaide 5/99
I presume that would mean the parents were not married (as it would in the UK)?
I don't have a worldwide sub to any site, which might help perhaps...
Merry: thank you for your quick replies, which are very helpful.
If I understand you right, they indicate that you have access to the original census record, and can confirm that (i) Frances was named in the census, (ii) her age was stated as 19, (iii) the birthplace was 'N S Wales Adelaid' and (iv) that she was described as 'niece'.
However, a father named William is not plausibly compatible with Frances being a 'niece', and, as you say, the date is questionable.
In the 1861 census, when Henry and family were in Gloucestershire, the census include a niece and a nephew named Julia and Charles White (aged 5 and 3). Henry and Mary were married at Calcutta; their first two children were born there, and so were those other two Whites. It was common for English parents in India to send their children back to England to live with relatives, so those could well have been a niece and a nephew, although I have not yet traced their parents. Or they might have been cousins, rather than immediate close kin.
So Frances may not have actually been a niece, but there has to be a reason why this young lady ended up in Bedford, after being born in Australia ,so until other evidence comes up, I would like to think that this young lady was some kind of blood relation.
My initial theory was that Charles Henry Marshall might have been the father. But Adelaide is a long stretch, since he was active in Queensland , where there is a Mount Marshall named after him.
Are the records in Queensland and other parts of Australia as good as those in Adelaide?
1871 England Census
on Ancestry for
Bedfordshire - St Paul - Bedford and Kempston - District 8
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Household schedule number: 242
Piece: 1541
Folio: 186
Page Number: 35
Images 17, 18 and 19 contain pages 34, 36 and 35 respectively.
In other words, pages 35 and 36 are in the wrong order.
The Marshall family begins at the bottom of page 35, in image 19.
The remainder of the family appear at the top of page 36, in image 18.
Given Name Surname Relationship Age Estimated Birth Year Gender Birth City Birth County Birth Country
Henry Marshall Head 50 1821 Male Mauritius
Mary C Marshall Wife 35 1836 Female Mauritius
Alice C Marshall Daughter 15 1856 Female Calcutta, East Indies
Edgar Marshall Son 14 1857 Male Calcutta, East Indies
Louisa Marshall Daughter 13 1858 Female Calcutta, East Indies
Ethel Marshall Daughter 11 1860 Female Parguton Devon England
William A Marshall Son 10 1861 Male Miserden Gloucestershire England
Charlotte Marshall Daughter 8 1863 Female Lymington Hampshire England
Edward Marshall Son 6 1865 Male Hordle Hampshire England
Herbert Marshall Son 5 1866 Male Hordle Hampshire England
Ada Marshall Daughter 2 1869 Female Bedford Bedfordshire England
Frances Marshall Niece 19 1852 Female W S Wales, Adelaid
Maria Sheppard Boarder 26 1845 Boulden Hampshire England
Elizabeth Marriott Servant 25 1846 Female Bletsoe Bedfordshire England
Sarah Humphrey Servant 20 1851 Female Bedford Bedfordshire England
Susan Pope Servant 20 1851 Female Eynesbury Huntingdonshire England
Yes, I had looked at the census page and thanks Janet for entering up the details.
You have distracted me with the Whites! These are from findmypast - Julia Caroline's birth record:
First name(s) Julia Caroline
Last name White
Baptism year 1856
Birth year 1856
Place Calcutta
Presidency Bengal
Mother's first name(s) Charlotte Begbie
Mother's last name -
Father's first name(s) Charles Fitz William
Father's last name White
Baptism date 1 Apr 1856
Birth date 22 Feb 1856
Archive reference N-1-89
Folio 361
Page -
Catalogue descriptions Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal
Record set British India Office births & baptisms
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain
and Charles F:
First name(s) Charles Fitzwilliam
Last name White
Birth year 1857
Birth date 29 May 1857
Place Howrah
County -
Country India
Event type Birth
Notes Bp: Calcutta IND
Reference 68583 118
Record set British civil service evidence of age
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain
I will now have a look at the images now to check transcriptions are OK.......
The image for Charles has further info.... baptism date of 7 July 1857 and parents names are the same as for Julia. Other details are the same as the transcription.
Julia's entry has the baptism date mis-transcribed. it should say 10th April not 1st.
Here's the parents marriage:
First name(s) Charles Fitz William
Last name White
Marriage year 1855
Marriage date 5 Feb 1855
Spouse's first name Charlotte Begbie
Spouse's last name Ainslie
Place Calcutta
Presidency Bengal
Bride's age 18
Groom's father's first name Charles Fitzwilliam
Groom's father's last name White
Bride's father's first name William
Bride's father's last name Ainslie
Catalogue description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, : 1713-1948
Archive reference N-1-87
Folio number 156
Entry number -
Record set British India Office marriages
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain
Further info from the image:
Charles is full age
His occ is civil engineer
There were three witnesses: W Ainslie, H Marshall and J Macpherson
Am I correct in thinking Henry Marshall's wife was Charlotte Begbie Ainslie's sister?
With regard to Frances Marshall, as well as the possibility she was some sort of cousin (etc) rather than a niece, it's also possible the census enumerator got carried away with the Marshall name and she should have been listed with a different surname. :D
Possible breakthrough??
I looked for people called Frances and born Adelaide in 1881 and I found this:
1881 census
Barrack Road, Bexhill, Surrey
Ledh (?) R Powell head married 40 (not sure off occ or birthplace, will come back to that) born Hants, Hokesbay (?)
Sussan (sic) F Powell wife married 29 born South Australia, Adelaide
Eliza V L Powell dau 3 born London, South Kensington
Richard T (?) L Powell, son 1 born Sussex, St Leonards
plus a nurse a cook and a general servant
Someone had helpfully 'corrected' Susan's name to Susan Frances (rather than just Susan F) or I wouldn't have found her!
I also found this marriage!
Marriages Sep 1876
Marshall Susan Frances Lewisham 1d 1327 <<<<<<<<<<<
POWELL Legh Richmond Lewisham 1d 1327 <<<<<<<<<<<
SPENCER Edith Maria Lewisham 1d 1327
Walsham William Johnson Lewisham 1d 1327
Needless to say, I couldn't find a birth reg for this Susan Frances in South Australia!
Ledh (?) R Powell head married 40 (not sure off occ or birthplace, will come back to that) born Hants, Hokesbay (?)
That birthplace is Stokes Bay, (at Alverstoke), Hants.
There are four trees on Ancestry with Susan Frances Marshall marrying Mr Powell, but none have the exact marriage date suggesting no one has looked at the cert. However, two trees do have parents recorded for Susan Frances and a dob for her:
Susan Frances Marshall
Birth: 18 Jan 1852 - Australia
Death: 13 Sep 1938 - Newton Abbot, Devon, England
Marriage: July 1876 (Jul 1876) - London
Spouse: Legh Richmond Powell
parents:
F: Thornton Marshall
M: Mary Frances Myrick aka Frances Boyd
You said in your opening post:
The fourth brother, Thornton,was a surgeon in the Army, who died in 1861. My records show that he had one daughter, also not named Frances.
Was she a Susan?!! If not, then maybe he had two daughters? The marriage cert should confirm Frances's father's name.
I see Thornton died five days before the 1861 census (probate calendar) but hopefully there will be family members at 5 Circus Road, St John's Wood.....
I've not got to Circus Road yet, because I've found Susan with her grandfather at 2 Queens Road, Marylebone:
Alexander Boyd, head married 68 Major on half pay b Ireland
Susan Boyd wife married 67 b Ireland
Susan F Marshall gr daur 8 b South Australia
plus 2 servants
Oh, 5 Circus Road is the home of Charles H Marshall. I don't have time to transcribe the family now, but here are the names from Ancestry's transcription;
Charles H Marshall 42
Charlotte A Marshall 23
Charlotte L Marshall 2
Amy Marshall 5/12
Louisa M Marshall 43
Elizabeth Grey 34
Isabella Berage 24
Emma Berage 18
Jane Videan 28
Ann Underwood 22
Hannah Hargrave 39
it doesn't seem that Thornton's widow is amongst them.
Time to belatedly do something with a joint of beef........ lol
I see some online trees have Thornton's wife dying before him in New Zealand, so it's not surprising his daughter (Susan Frances) was with her grandparents in 1861.
Probate entry 1938:
POWELL Susan Frances of 2 Stockton-hill Dawlish Devonshire widow died 13 September 1938 Probate London 23 November to Sybil Merrick Legh Powell spinster. Effects £686 14s 5d
(if she had lived 13 months longer we could have confirmed her date of birth on the 1939 Register!)
Probate entry 1914
POWELL Legh Richmond of Kingswood Summerheath-road Haillsham Sussex died 28 December 1913 at the Princess Alice Hospital Eastbourne Sussex Probate London 19 January to Susan Frances Powell widow. Effects £192 17s 2d.
One of their sons, b 1879, was named Richmond Thornton Legh Powell
You didn't mention Thornton's wife in the opening post, so I'm not sure if you have this marriage in NSW:
55/1851 V185155 37B MARSHALL THORNTON BOYD MARY F M District CJ
I don't know what CJ stands for.
I did look for Susan Frances in NSW too, but no matches.
kiterunner
10-07-16, 11:10
You didn't mention Thornton's wife in the opening post, so I'm not sure if you have this marriage in NSW:
55/1851 V185155 37B MARSHALL THORNTON BOYD MARY F M District CJ
I don't know what CJ stands for.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/early-church-codes.aspx
CJ Church of England Sydney, St James'
It would seem Thornton did only have the one child, so I do hope the name you have for her is Susan making Susan and Frances the same person!!
Morning Post 25 July 1876
POWELL - MARSHALL On the 20th inst., at St. Bartholomew's, Sydenham, by the Hon. and Rev. Augustus Legge, Legh Richmond, second surviving son of the late Henry Folliott Powell, Esq., of Brandlesome Hall, county Lancashire, to Susan Frances, only child of the late Thornton Marshall, Esq., H.M.'s 65th Regiment.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/early-church-codes.aspx
CJ Church of England Sydney, St James'
Thanks Kate :)
lol After all that delving it turns out Thornton's marriage and child's birth details are on his army service papers on fmp! Should have looked at those first!!
There are Whites in the family, Tim, so there is likely a connection.
Sarah Chadder married John Drake and their daughter Sarah married Matthew White in 1792. I don't have the White's mentioned above but maybe I wasn't able to trace someone far enough, or they were not directly related to me so are not on my tree.
Also Charles and Charlotte Marshall had a son Thornton in 1862 so that may be in honour of the one who died in 1861 that was mentioned above.
The civil engineer, Charles Fitzwilliam White who was the father of Julia and Charles and husband of Charlotte Begbie Ainslie (died Calcutta 1858 aged 22) seems to have been born in London in 1829. He returned to the UK with his second wife Harriet nee Fergusson who he married in Calcutta in 1861. This CFW died in Whitby in 1905.
His father, also CFW, died in London in 1840 aged 35. He was bap in Lincoln in 1804, the son of Charles White and Frances Ann. They seem to have had children b in Lincoln 1803-1820.
Thank you all again.
I was also curious about the White family because there was a couple in London named Matthew and Sarah White, who were quite closely related the the Marshall family. However, I think your posts make it clear that these children were not closely related to that family.
However, Mary (or sometimes Marie) Charlotte Marshall's maiden name was certainly Ainslie, and her father was William Ainslie, who had been a merchant at Calcutta, and was probably the person of that name whose partnership was bankrupt in 1833. So Charlotte White was her sister and those White children were certainly her nephew and niece. It looks as though the father was a railway engineer, son of another Charles Fitzwilliam White who had a ob in the House of Commons Journal Office, and whose father came from Wales. The boy also went on to become a railway engineer.
But back to Frances. I came across the information about her on this web page:
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1359821
where her birth place was transcribed as 'NSW Australia'. Are you sure it says 'Adelaid'?
In 1852, Charles Henry Marshall was living at Glengallan, near Warwick, now in Queensland, but at that time still part of New South Wales. If Frances were his daughter, the birth would have been around there.
EDIT: Oops! After posting this I see there are plenty of other new posts that must have been put there while I was writing. Apologies for the confusion
It 100% says Adelaid on the 1871 census (and the later ones where she is Mrs Powell) and also says Adelaide for the birthplace of Susan Frances on Thornton's army record.
Oops, just read your EDIT! lol
What was the name you already had for Thornton's child?
Can't remember if you said where you live on another thread tpb, but here is some info on Glengallan if you don't have it. I know it well.
http://www.glengallan.org.au/history.html
What a team!
Merry:
I apologize for doubting your reading of Adelaide. I was climbing up the wrong gum tree.
My notes showed Thornton Marshall's daughter as 'Susan', but now in hindsight, looking back, I see that the complete family tree of that Marshall branch shows her as 'Susan Frances'. If I had been more diligent I would have saved you some effort! But I had no idea that he had spent time in Australia, so did not make the connection. Thank you for putting me straight.
Kit (Toni):
As you know I continue to be curious about the White - Drake - Adams - Marshall connections. But these Whites seem to be unconnected.
The question of why these people continued to use Thornton as a given name is interesting. Thornton Marshall had an uncle and a cousin both named Thornton Benthall. His grandmother was born Elizabeth Thornton, and she was related to the Thornton and Wilberforce families, who made fortunes in the Russian trade and then were instrumental in leading the effort to abolish slavery. By 1862, those families were in decline, so you are probably correct in thinking that in the next generation the reason for keeping it was more to honour an uncle than their rich and distant relatives.
For the record, one of those children of Henry Marshall was referred to as 'Cousin Ainslie' and provided information that John Maynard Keynes used when writing an obituary of the economist, Alfred Marshall (the nephew of Henry and Thornton). That is how I reached this slightly unlikely research request.
Tim
My notes showed Thornton Marshall's daughter as 'Susan', but now in hindsight, looking back, I see that the complete family tree of that Marshall branch shows her as 'Susan Frances'. If I had been more diligent I would have saved you some effort! But I had no idea that he had spent time in Australia, so did not make the connection. Thank you for putting me straight.
Don't worry about that Tim, it happens to all of us! I just wanted to be sure someone hadn't 'invented' another child when we now have at least two sources (army papers and newspaper cutting) showing there was only one child. According to his army papers, Thornton was in 'the Australian Colonies' between 5 Aug 1845 and 24 Aug 1856 (could be 1858 as the writing has an unhelpful printed line running through it!).
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