A naval question

[Val in Oz]

In the FMP records for 'service and pensions records 1704-1919' my James Samain is shown in the year 1782. (and other years). He was in the Navy and had to be pensioned off because of early blindness.

Under the records he is listed as DD - would anyone have any idea as to what these initials stand for please.
I see at the top of the column they can choose from D DD R or Exp.

...and whilst I am on James I haven't yet been able to find a death recorded for him. As he became a Greenwich in-pensioner would they have their own death records somewhere I can look through?

PS James Samain is a very common name in the family so there are quite a few recorded who aren't this particular James, which is why I wondered if Greenwich recorded their patients deaths.:(

Many thanks

[garstonite]

D = Dormant
DD = Discharged Dead
I think R means retired - not sure
EXP - again ,not sure but may be Expired ??
ADDED how can he be DD Discharged Dead if he was discharged blind ??
back in a minute

[garstonite]

Yes - I was right - a quote from Royal Navy / Marines Muster and Pension books

Certificates of Service (see Royal Navy/Royal Marines - Certificates of Service ... Pension records especially ADM 73/1-35, Greenwich Hospital Pensioners' ... and 'DD' Discharged Dead; Career and rank, either Landsmen abbreviated to 'LM', ..

so I am right about DD - Pretty sure about D = Dormant - but not sure about the other 2
R
EXP
ADDED- ha ha - WRONG Allan ...D = Discharged / R = Run - Desertion - doesn't mention EXP
a quote

Name, age at time of entry (after 1764), place of birth; Crew Number which was issued to the seaman for the time served on each ship and can be useful because crews are listed in numerical order; Date entered the ship and date first mustered; Details of previous ships served on and transfers; Details of hospital treatment; Discharge and date of death with the letter 'D' signifying Discharge which could include transfer to another ship, 'R' signifying Desertion (Run) and 'DD' Discharged Dead; Career and rank, either Landsmen abbreviated to 'LM', Ordinary Seaman abbreviated to 'ord' or 'ordy' and Able-Bodied Seaman abbreviated to 'ab' or 'AM' or 'able'.

[Merry]

I was looking around to see if you had told us anywhere when James was born. I was going to say, if he died in Eng/Wales in the 1880's or after then there should be a normal death registration for him. However, upon looking for his year of birth I got confused as I wasn't sure if this, below, was the same man? (I was going to ignore it as this man was a soldier not sailor and almost exactly 100 years earlier, but the ref to being blind made me hesitate! - Quoting from 2008)

James Samain would be Chelsea in-pensioner. Very little information in the ledger. he was minuted on the 4th April 1782, aged 40 years with 11 years service discharged in 1781. affliction early blind. (could that have been nearly blind?)

So, if James was alive in 1880 he should have a normal death reg in Greenwich District (if he was an in pensioner at death) but if he's the one alive in 1780 then you would be looking for a burial record/will.

[Merry]

lol - If I had been more awake earlier I would have just looked at the FMP record you mentioned! So, it's 1780s not 1880s?

[Merry]

The page kept freezing, but I saw this mentioned on Deceased Online website:

ADM 73 (Admiralty: Royal Greenwich Hospital: Pensioners and School Admission Papers, Out Pension Pay Books and Miscellaneous Registers) includes burial registers for Greenwich Royal Hospital, Greenwich, London (1705-1857; 1860-1966).

[ElizabethHerts]

I have come to the same conclusion as you, Merry. It seems he came from Bethnal Green. He was born c. 1742.
Ancestry has the marriage between a James Samain and Elizabeth Brown in Bethnal Green in 1762:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_194849-00423/2190106?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[Merry]

I couldn't find anything from a search though, and that post was from 2013.

[Durham Lady]

Certificates of Service (see Royal Navy/Royal Marines - Certificates of Service ... Pension records especially ADM 73/1-35, Greenwich Hospital Pensioners' ... and 'DD' Discharged Dead; Career and rank, either Landsmen abbreviated to 'LM', ..

so I am right about DD - Pretty sure about D = Dormant - but not sure about the other 2
R
EXP
ADDED- ha ha - WRONG Allan ...D = Discharged / R = Run - Desertion - doesn't mention EXP
a quote


I wonder if someone wrote DD for Discharged Disabled?

[Merry]

ADM 73 (Admiralty: Royal Greenwich Hospital: Pensioners and School Admission Papers, Out Pension Pay Books and Miscellaneous Registers) includes burial registers for Greenwich Royal Hospital, Greenwich, London (1705-1857; 1860-1966).

So, Deceased Online say ADM 73 includes Greenwich Hospital burial records 1705-1857 but TNA seems to say ADM 73 includes Greenwich Hospital burials 1844 to 1981. Hmmmmm......

[Val in Oz]

Thank you folks, I think discharged disabled rather than discharged dead would be more like it as he appears several years in a row recorded in the pensions, each time mentioned as DD

I would like to look at the records for Greenwich deaths ADM73 - 1705-1857 so can you tell me how I can access them please?

The James Samain soldier you found Merry was his son and he too married an Elizabeth which has caused much confusion over the years I can tell you.
In our research they are always referred to as James the sailor and James the soldier........:d ...and yes he (the sailor) was born in Bethnal Green as Jacques Samain the son of Abraham and Rebecca who were of Huguenot stock.

...and my apologies Merry, I had written the wrong year, and visitors turned up and I didn't get back to proof read.........I am embarrassed......:eek:

I have looked through the National Archives website and think I may have to beg my SiL to visit the archives and search for the death.
Well, she does live in Bethnal Green, and it is her 5X Grandfather as well as my OH's......:d:d:d

Thanks all for your input.

[Merry]

I would like to look at the records for Greenwich deaths ADM73 - 1705-1857 so can you tell me how I can access them please?


I don't know that these records exist. As I said up-thread, there doesn't seem to be any mention of them on The National Archives website, so I've no idea how you would access them if they do exist!

Deceased Online say they have those records, but I just did a search on their site for the surname Smith for burials at the Royal Hospital Greenwich 1780-1800 and got no matches. When I moved the dates forward by 100 years I got over 500 matches (in part because the results included any Smith buried at Greenwich Cemetery).

[Val in Oz]

Thank you Merry, I spent some time on the TNA website today but have never found it to my liking, however I might ask my SiL if she would make some inquiries there for me just in case Deceased Online were right.

[Merry]

Yes, definitely a good idea :D

[Phoenix]

The modern site occupied by the cemetery is quite small, and it looks as if ADM 73 only covers burial registers from 1844. (search Discovery by ADM 73 AND Burial)

[Phoenix]

Which record says that he is an in-pensioner? Most Greenwich pensioners were, like my ancestor, out pensioners and would have lived in their own communities.

[Val in Oz]

Phoenix it is ADM 6/225/33

It gives his name along with some others as;

'Greenwich out-pensioners applying for admission into Greenwich Hospital as in-pensioners (after service in the Royal Navy, Royal Marines or the Naval Dockyards)' dated April 4th 1782

[Phoenix]

Okay, so Deceased Online's records start in 1844, and have yet to be transcribed.

Ancestry have this:http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1624/31547_213872-00001?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2 fsearch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d1624%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing#?imageId=31547_213872-00003

[Phoenix]

It might be worth emailing London Metropolitan Archives - I am having no joy with their catalogue - to discover whether they do hold the registers, or if they have mysteriously disappeared. It sounds horribly like the latter.

[Val in Oz]

Thank you Phoenix, I will follow that up at the weekend.
It will be sad if the records have disappeared.....and of course I am only assuming that James was accepted as an in-pensioner, he may in fact have been rejected.
But I am going to follow up the death records for Greenwich Hospital in the hopes that they are still available.