View Full Version : Ann Emmott (Born about 1826)
Hi Everyone, firstly thankyou for all the contributions on Le Granda Alpha Watson. I'm in the process of getting the birth certificate.
I was hoping someone could help with birth information on my 3GG, Ann Emmott. She was born around 1826 - most likely in Yorkshire somewhere. I have viewed her marriage certificate to Robert Pickles (1841). She was 15 years old and living in Cowling, Yorkshire at the time. Her father's name on the certificate was John Emmott. She had 3 children John (1842), David (1843) and Ann (April 1845). I have found what could be her death registration - June 1845, Keighley, Yorkshire.
I have also cited what may be a record of her in the 1841 census, which only says this Ann was born in Yorkshire.
Any help is greatly appreciated!
Nerrida
Do you have the names of the witnesses and her father's occupation from the marriage cert? Where did the marriage take place?
Mary from Italy
10-06-16, 05:56
Where did you get her age from? The marriage cert's online, and it just says she's a minor.
Is this the 1841 census record?
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/WRYHO107_1316_1317-0328?pid=14875094&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DxPI1300%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3Duki1841%26g ss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26 gsfn%3Dann*%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln%3Demmott%26gsln_x% 3D1%26msbdy%3D1826%26msbdy_x%3D1%26msbdp%3D2%26gsk w%3Dyorkshire%26gskw_x%3D1%26cpxt%3D1%26cp%3D11%26 catbucket%3Drstp%26MSAV%3D2%26uidh%3D672%26pcat%3D 35%26fh%3D0%26h%3D14875094%26recoff%3D6%25207%26ml _rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=xPI1300&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true
Have you investigated the John Emmott at the bottom of the same page at all?
Mary from Italy
10-06-16, 05:58
Merry, the marriage was at Kildwick in October 1841. The witnesses were John Crosby (possibly a serial witness) and Robert Hutchinson.
Robert Pickles, full age, was a weaver, resident in Cowling, and both spouses' parents were weavers.
Where did you get her age from? The marriage cert's online, and it just says she's a minor.
Oooh, I didn't find that, probably because I assumed it must have her age on it as otherwise how would the approx. year of birth be known? Because I put in an approx. year of birth it didn't come up in the results! *goes back to get the other info....*
Merry, the marriage was at Kildwick in October 1841. The witnesses were John Crosby (possibly a serial witness) and Robert Hutchinson.
Robert Pickles, full age, was a weaver, resident in Cowling, and both spouses' parents were weavers.
Oh, thanks Mary.
EDIT Ignore this post and look at post #12!
Ah the burial record in 1845 in Keighley says that Ann is 18 years which would make her about 14/15 at the marriage if that age is accurate and if it's the same girl. The death cert should tell you her relationship to someone - husband or father's name depending on whether she is married or single/whether she is the Ann you are looking for or not.
Mary from Italy
10-06-16, 06:11
There's a Robert Pickles aged 20 in Cowling with his parents David and Martha in 1841.
Mary from Italy
10-06-16, 06:12
I have quite a lot of people in that area, and I don't think I've ever found anyone getting married at such a young age.
I seem to get short term memory loss when I haven't had my breakfast, but I was just looking to see when Robert Pickles remarried from one of the other threads on here - I have forgotten the year already, but after the 1851 census. I see he married someone (lol) who was previously married to a John Emmott, son of John Emmott. I wondered if this prev husband was the brother of Ann who had married Robert Pickles in 1841? So Nancy (was it?) possibly married the husband of her late sister-in-law? I'm not saying this is right (plenty of Emmotts in the area!), but have you already considered it/eliminated anything like that?
Mary from Italy
10-06-16, 06:28
I've found a much more likely burial:
Ann Pickles, abode Cowling, age 23, was buried at Kildwick on 14/5/1845, which would make her about 19 when she got married.
I have quite a lot of people in that area, and I don't think I've ever found anyone getting married at such a young age.
No, me neither - with 10,000 on my tree I only have one bride aged 15 and she is only a week or two from her 16th birthday. I suppose it did happen occasionally though *tries to keep an open mind*
Must eat something!
I've found a much more likely burial:
Ann Pickles, abode Cowling, age 23, was buried at Kildwick on 14/5/1845, which would make her about 19 when she got married.
Oooh, I agree. She would also still be listed as 15 in 1841 as she would have been under 20l.
Oh, I'm looking at the burial register for Kildwick for that date but I can't see anything for Ann?
Oops, forget that. Got it now!
I'm having trouble locating the various posts about this family, but back in 2011 we seemed to know who the parents of Ann were:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showpost.php?p=129345&postcount=13
I can't find where we originally worked this out or what info we had (ie was Mary John's mother when Ann was born?)
In 1841 Ann Emmott (aged 15, but ages were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest five years once you reached 16 or over) is with Susanna Gawthrop. Loos like they could be related:
Marriages Dec 1840
BREWER William Skipton 23 596
EMMOTT Susanna Skipton 23 596 <<<<<<<<<<<<<
GAWTHROP Isaac Skipton 23 596 <<<<<<<<<<<<<
SHUTTLEWORTH John Skipton 23 596
SHUTTLEWORTH Mary Skipton 23 596
WILSON Christiana Skipton 23 596
WILSON Mary Skipton 23 596
EDIT The marriage PR entry is on fmp and her father is John Emmott, weaver so I guess she is Ann's sister. Susanna is full age but Isaac is a minor.
I wonder if we have a list of the family of John and Mary? Emmott on any earlier thread?
There are two non-con baptisms in 1837 for two daughter's of John and Mary Emmett of Cowling in the parish of Kildwick on FMP. The dau's are Susannah born 26 Apr 1816 and Nancy born 4 June 1821.
Is Nancy otherwise known as Ann? (I am desperately trying not to mix this Nancy up with the other one who was married to John Emmott!!
I need to look for a baptism for him, don't I? Do we know his age?
I'm still getting the feeling this is all old ground. :o
A super quick look at this thread below suggests we don't know much about John Emmott as Nancy wasn't with him in 1851. Of course there are a lot of baptisms for John son of John Emmott!
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?t=24121&highlight=john+emmott+nancy
So we need the burial of John Emmott 1851-1853 (ie between 51 census and Nancy's remarriage) to see his age. That's assuming she was really married and not a widow in 1851.
I should have gone out five mins ago!!
OK, so to recap.....
John and Mary Emmott seem to be the parents of Susannah Emmott (b 1816) and Nancy (Ann?) Emmott (b 1821)
They are also the parents of William b abt 1828/9 and Sarah b abt 1832/33 (from this census, below, which I stole from another thread:)
1851 census - Great House, Kildwick, Yorkshire
John Emmott Head Mar 60 Hand loom weaver (worsted) Yorkshire Sutton
Mary Do Wife Do 64 Do Cowling
William Do Son U 22 Power loom weaver (cotton) Do Do
Sarah Do Daur U 18 Hand Do (Do) Do Do
John Pickles Grandson 8 Bobbin winder Do Do
and also they might possibly be the parents of John Emmott who married Nancy Harker before she became the second Mrs Pickles. At the moment we don't know much about this John Emmott.
One of these two seems likely :
Deaths Sep 1851
EMMOTT John Skipton 23 475
Deaths Mar 1853
Emmott John Skipton 9a 31
there are also two regs in 1849 (in case Nancy's marital status is inclrrect on the census). One is aged 10 (burial) and the other I have no further info at the moment
I tried looking for John and Mary in 1841. I guess this is them because the address matches though some of the ages don't fit well with the 1851.
This is the same John (aged 50) I mentioned as being on the same page as Ann aged 15 (but actually 19):
Great House, Cowling, Kildwick, Yorks:
John Emmott 50 weaver Yes
Mary 50 Yes
William 20 Yes
John 15 Yes
Isabella 10 Yes
Jane 10 Yes
Sarah 5 Yes
There's another family at the same address headed by Isabella Emmott aged 70 who I would like to be John senr's mother!
So, if John and Mary had a son John aged 15 in 1841 (might be rounded down) I wonder if this is him in 1851:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/LANHO107_2252_2252-0369/11968593?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dgXo2486%26_phstart%3dsucc essSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1851%26so%3d 2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3djohn%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3demm%253ft*%26gsl n_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1822%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%2 6gskw%3dyorkshire%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d1 1%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Married but not with wife Nancy(Harker) and the right age and occupation.
So it still looks possible that Nancy married John Emmott and John's sister (Ann/Nancy) married Robert Pickles. Then when Nancy lost her husband and Robert his wife the remaining two married each other.
I'm just wondering what the original question was?!! lol
Oh yes.....
I was hoping someone could help with birth information on my 3GG, Ann Emmott.
I don't think she was born in 1826 but I do think she was born on 4 June 1821 and her name was recorded as Nancy at her baptism (post #19). She would have been 20 at her marriage (so still a minor). Her burial says 23 before her birthday in 1845 so that's right. At the 1841 census shoe would have been 20 years and three days. but if she said 19 or her details were taken a few days early then she might easily have been recorded as 15 (rounded down 19)
ElizabethHerts
10-06-16, 13:36
One of these two seems likely :
Deaths Sep 1851
EMMOTT John Skipton 23 475
Deaths Mar 1853
Emmott John Skipton 9a 31
there are also two regs in 1849 (in case Nancy's marital status is inclrrect on the census). One is aged 10 (burial) and the other I have no further info at the moment
Here is the 1851 burial for John Emmott at Kildwick:
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fyorkshire%2f13-0743_gb-yor_parish-registers-n-pr-kld-1-15-1537-1900%2f00157&parentid=gbprs%2fyorkshire%2fbur%2f303839641
First name(s) John
Last name Emmott
Age 79
Birth year 1772
Burial year 1851
Burial date 16 Jul 1851
Burial place Kildwick
County Yorkshire (West Riding)
Country England
Archive North Yorkshire County Record Office
Archive reference N-PR-KLD1-15
Page 304
Record set Yorkshire Burials
The 1853 burial:
First name(s) John
Last name Emmott
Age 03
Birth year 1850
Burial year 1853
Burial date 01 Nov 1853
Burial place Kildwick
County Yorkshire (West Riding)
Country England
Archive North Yorkshire County Record Office
Archive reference N-PR-KLD1-15
Page 339
Record set Yorkshire Burials
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fyorkshire%2f13-0743_gb-yor_parish-registers-n-pr-kld-1-15-1537-1900%2f00174&parentid=gbprs%2fyorkshire%2fbur%2f303839925
Hmmm, so neither of those lol!
Baps found so far for the children of John and Mary Emmott in the non-con records on fmp:
These were bap 28 Jun 1837 (this is the order listed)
John b 13 Feb 1826
Isabella b 5 Apr 1828
Jane b 31 Dec 1830
Sarah b 10 Sep 1833
William, below, has dob but no date of bap recorded and comes immediately after the others above:
William b 31 Dec 1819
and the other two, below, were bap the same day as the others above but are listed separately in the bap registers. I haven't worked out why or how far apart they are in the listings, but all the same handwriting:
Susanna b 26 Apr 1816
Nancy/Ann b 4 Jun 1821
That's odd - the 1853 burial you found Elizabeth was for November but the death reg I found was for Q1. There doesn't seem to be a death reg for the three year old?? Anyway, fmp have this burial but I can only find it on the NBI records at the moment:
First name(s) JOHN
Last name EMMOTT
Birth year 1824
Death year 1853
Age 29
Burial year 1853
Burial day 16
Burial month 1
Place COWLING NR KEIGHLEY
Church description COWLING ANGLICAN PARISH CHURCH
Church denomination ANGLICAN
I think the age is close enough and all right for date given Nancy remarried in Oct 1853.
Oh I forgot to say, all those baps in 1837 were Wesleyan Methodist.
Baps found so far for the children of John and Mary Emmott in the non-con records on fmp:
These were bap 28 Jun 1837 (this is the order listed)
John b 13 Feb 1826
Isabella b 5 Apr 1828
Jane b 31 Dec 1830
Sarah b 10 Sep 1833
William, below, has dob but no date of bap recorded and comes immediately after the others above:
William b 31 Dec 1819
and the other two, below, were bap the same day as the others above but are listed separately in the bap registers. I haven't worked out why or how far apart they are in the listings, but all the same handwriting:
Susanna b 26 Apr 1816
Nancy/Ann b 4 Jun 1821
*puffs onto thread*
Wow, so do you think this is the answer to the original question?
Wesleyan Methodist is exactly right for our Pickles family.
I think so. Do I presume the idea she was only 15 at the marriage came from her age in 1841 which was probably actually rounded down?
I don't know what Nerrida had in mind, Merry. My own benchmark had been the 14 Oct 1841 marriage where she was a minor, therefore born sometime after 14 Oct 1820. June 1821 would certainly fit.
EDIT:
*wails* Why can't I find that on FMP?! Was that indeed in the Wesleyan Methodist records?
Which? The marriage or the baptism?
I can't find those baptisms.
The Record Set is called "England & Wales Non-conformist births and baptisms". All the entries have the surname as Emmett.
If you select the record set and surname Emmett and b 1827 +/- 10 years and for Location put Icornshaw you should get 13 results which include all the ones I've listed.
For the entries where the parents were transcribed as something other than John and Mary I've not actually checked the register, so you might want to do that to be sure none have been incorrectly transcribed (also look at spelling variables as none of those had John and Mary as the parents in the transcripts!)
OK, got it, thank you. For those who can see it, the image is here.
Nancy Emmett daughter of John and Mary of Cowling born 4 June 1821 (http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=tna%2frg4%2f3228%2f0%2f0032&parentid=tna%2frg4%2fbap%2f1056167&highlights=%22%22)
First name(s) Nancy
Last name Emmett
Birth year 1821
Birth date 04 Jun 1821
Baptism year 1837
Baptism date 28 Jun 1837
Place Icornshaw
Denomination Wesleyan Methodist
Father's first name(s) John
Mother's first name(s) Mary
County Yorkshire
Country England
Archive reference TNA/RG/4/3228
Description YORKSHIRE: Icornshaw (Wesleyan): Births & Baptisms
Record set England & Wales Non-conformist births and baptisms
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain
EDIT:
Off to look at the images as you suggested.
Well, here's what I found for Em*t in Icornshaw on the Wesleyan Methodist registers. My two right-hand columns give YYYYMMDD for the date of birth and baptism, and I have them sorted by father's first name then by date of birth. Where records match in color it means they were in sequence on the same page of the register. Those with no color were found by themselves as a one-off.
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u533/pix4janet/Emmott-Emmett%20births%20and%20baptisms%20-%20Wesleyan%20Meth%20-%20Icornshaw._zpsboqt2td9.jpg
EDIT: And then again, I've just seen what Mary was saying about the Robert Pickles-Anne Emmott 1841 marriage cert being viewable on FMP. And that was in the established church.
So the Nancy Emmott born 4 June 1821 and baptized Wesleyan Methodist presumably is the Ann Emmott with Susannah Gawthrop on the 1841 because that would be her sister. But is this the same Anne Emmott who married Robert Pickles in 1841 in the parish church?
(Have edited my earlier remarks in bold because I stupidly misspoke. Sorry for the confusion.)
Karen Shearer
19-06-16, 09:06
I think this is the same Ann Emmott based on the 1851 census
The 1841 census does show Robert Pickles as living with his parents David and Martha. His marriage certificate shows him married 14th Sept 1941 to Ann Emmott (a minor) and the birth of their first son John Pickles 29th Dec 1841. A very busy year for him.
Ann Emmott at the 1841 census was living at Stot Hill with Susannah Gawthrop and her 3 day old baby.
The 1851 census finds the family split up John Pickles is with his Grandparents at Great House Farm (John and Mary Emmott)
David at New Road with Tempest Fort and family and baby Ann with James and Ann Whitaker at Owl Coates. Robert is a lodger with John Smith and family. Ann Emmott had died of "the rash" ( infection??) weeks after the birth of Ann in 1845.
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