View Full Version : Questions from wills.
I know you've all been waiting for this. It will probably turn into ten threads, but here goes.....
For those who have not heard of the will of Elizabeth Ariel (died 3rd Dec1837), the story is that she wrote a will using the same solicitors as her husband used, but her husband had the will overturned in 1839.
The will starts..........
This is the last will and testamentary writing of me, Elizabeth Ariel wife of Myles Ariel of the city of Bristol Broker made and published pursuant to the power and authority contained in the indenture or deed of Settlement made and executed on or previous to my intermarriage with my said husband Myles Ariel.
Then she goes on to give the money away, mostly to the children.
The money came from her mother, Elizabeth Naylor (nee Eyre).
From the 1806 will of her father, George Naylor.....
I give and bequeath to my dear and loving wife Elizabeth the sum of One Thousand and Five Hundred pounds being the amount of her own fortune......
It's fairly easy to work out Elizabeth Ariel had a lot of money and I know it would normally become property of her husband on their marriage.
Where do you think would be the best place to try to find if there was a court case about this will? I really would love to know how it came to be overturned in 1839 when surely she had her husband's permission to write it if she used his solicitors.
kiterunner
08-06-16, 12:05
Newspapers (e.g. British Newspaper Archive, Times Digital Archive, London Gazette), Google Book Search, The National Archives.
kiterunner
08-06-16, 12:11
This is what it actually says after the copy of the will in the PCC probate records:
On the 1st of June 1839 Admon (with the Will annexed) of the Goods Chattels & Credits of Elizabeth Ariel (wife of Myles Ariel) late of the City of Bristol deceased was granted to Robert Leonard & Edward Jarrett Ransford the Exors having been first sworn by Com[m]on duly to administer. The said Myles Ariel the lawful husband of the said Deceased & as such the only person entitled to her personal Estate over which she had no disposing power & concerning which she is dead Intestate having first consented (as by Acts of Court appears).
kiterunner
08-06-16, 12:12
So I don't read that as Myles having the will overturned exactly, but that he consented to the executors administering her estate in line with the wishes expressed in her will even though it was not legally valid.
So I don't read that as Myles having the will overturned exactly, but that he consented to the executors administering her estate in line with the wishes expressed in her will even though it was not legally valid.
I saw that on the bottom of the will, but the children got absolutely nothing from their mother's will. Myles wrote his will when he remarried and left everything to his new wife and only money to left to the children after her death.
His will is dated 15th April 1839. He died 31st March 1840.
Anything to help here?
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/chancery-equity-suits-after-1558/
if I go into TNA advanced search and enter Name Ariel and ref C 13 I get a lot of stuff I recognise, but nothing for the right dates.
kiterunner
08-06-16, 12:21
I saw that on the bottom of the will, but the children got absolutely nothing from their mother's will.
How do you know that, please, Libby?
Whoops, I missed Kate's replies.
How do you know that, please, Libby?
Family story Kate. I know they can be untrue, but the eldest daughter, Elizabeth's family has the story of how she was going to marry a solicitor and then had no inheritance. They married anyway. She was the only one aged 21 at the time her mother died.
Myles junior aged 20 in 1839 moved in with his sister.
Agatha married her father's new wife's brother in 1839. That didn't end well.
Mary was only tiny in 1839 and stayed with her step mother until after her death, then got her money and went to Italy and married there.
Emily Ariel (nee Weaver) wife of Myles jun. tried to get his share of the money after he went missing but without luck.
Merry........it's not there. That Pidwell case is still used in law schools....lol.
I would have thought that if she did have anything sizeable to leave, there would be a death duty entry and I can't find one. I'm fairly sure that by 1839 money left to children would be taxed. Does this suggest that the funds settled on her had been spent/salted away? The Government would certainly have wanted their cut, if they could obtain it.
I would have thought that if she did have anything sizeable to leave, there would be a death duty entry and I can't find one. I'm fairly sure that by 1839 money left to children would be taxed. Does this suggest that the funds settled on her had been spent/salted away? The Government would certainly have wanted their cut, if they could obtain it.
There is a death duty entry for her:
Eliz Ariel 1839 BRISTOL — PCC And Country Courts (FMP)
There is a death duty entry for her:
Eliz Ariel 1839 BRISTOL — PCC And Country Courts (FMP) :o:o:o
In which case, that should name the beneficiaries and show the value of the estate.
Is there any way I can buy that...or is it online anywhere?
Try this:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/death-duties-1796-1903/
Merry.......that takes me to FMP. Do you know if I take a sub, will it show me the details?
kiterunner
08-06-16, 19:55
FMP only has the Index to Death Duty Registers, and TNA only has some of the registers from 1796 to 1811 online; you would need to get someone to go and visit TNA or order a copy from there (click on the "Order copies" button on Merry's link for info.)
Merry.......that takes me to FMP. Do you know if I take a sub, will it show me the details?
How odd - it takes me to TNA.
If you click the browse IR 26 and then choose 1839 you get this in the results:
Will register: surnames A - B, folios 865-1159
Ordering and viewing options This record has not been digitised and cannot be downloaded.
Request a quotation for a copy to be digitised and sent to you.
Reference: IR 26/1508
Description: Will register: surnames A - B, folios 865-1159
Date: 1839
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record
Physical description: microform
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
Access conditions: Closed For 75 years
If you click Order a Copy this comes up:
Before you start
Please note that the record copying process takes approximately 24 working days from start to finish. This is due to the high volume of requests that we receive each day.
There are two separate fees as part of the service:
1. the cost of a page check (£8.24)
2. the cost of making copies of a record, if it is possible to do so
Requesting a page check
Send us detailed information about what you would like copied, and we will carry out a page check to determine whether it is possible to make a copy. A page check involves a member of staff collecting the relevant record from our repositories, looking for the information you’ve specified and assessing the record’s suitability for copying. The page check costs £8.24 and is non-refundable. This covers the cost of the service and is agreed by the Treasury.
We copy
If the page check shows that we can make a copy we will email you with a full breakdown of the cost of copying the record. If not, we will email you to explain why we are not able to make a copy.
If you choose to go ahead with your order, you can decide whether you would like to receive a digital copy via email, or a hard copy by post.
at the bottom there's a button to 'Get Started'.
Merry....if I search in IR26 for Ariel, it says there's nothing.
I tried "Order Copies" and all I get is what I need to know before ordering.
***stamps feet*** I still hate this site........lol
Just found the Live Chat bit......might try that when it's open.
kiterunner
08-06-16, 21:23
Is that definitely the reference number for the Death Duty Register entry and not just a copy of the will, Merry?
kiterunner
08-06-16, 21:23
Merry....if I search in IR26 for Ariel, it says there's nothing.
They haven't fully indexed that bit online.
They haven't fully indexed that bit online.
Okay....maybe Live Chat might know what I should be able to get.
I have a list of things I want and no idea how to get them. Might put up another thread with them one day......lol
kiterunner
08-06-16, 21:47
Oh, I remember now; they've changed their ordering process. I don't know how you do it now though. Hopefully the live chat will help.
Is that definitely the reference number for the Death Duty Register entry and not just a copy of the will, Merry?
I see why you say that, but IR 26 is the Death Duty register, IR 27 is the index and aren't the wills PROB something-or-other? I've found the proper instructions for what I did last might here (step 3 in section 6) Note Libby, you can't search by name as Kate pointed out:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/death-duties-1796-1903-further-research/
Thanks Merry. I will have a good look tomorrow (hopefully). If I'm still up later I'll see if anyone is on live chat.
I went to bed at midnight and was up at 4am and now have grandson here and trying to help him with his homework.
I also want to try to get another thread up. ***you don't need to be scared*** lol
The records are on microfilm - I think it was Agatha I looked for last time? - and if I remember correctly it's a double reference: a reference to the index and another to the document. The end result is no more than 2 pages.
I have no free Saturdays in the forseeable future, but it might be worth asking whether anyone is going to Kew.
anne fraser
09-06-16, 17:47
Here is a bit about the wills. http://www.mfwebb.co.uk/mysteriousorigins/places/lansdown-villa/page2.html
New readers start here. http://www.mfwebb.co.uk/mysteriousorigins/places/lansdown-villa/
kiterunner
09-06-16, 18:20
Yes, but I'm not convinced that the information given there about what happened with Elizabeth's will is correct.
Mary from Italy
09-06-16, 18:50
I don't think this was on TNA last time we looked, was it?
In the matter of Agatha Clark otherwise Agatha Giacobbi late of Algiers, deceased.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7954704
Anne.........the fellow who wrote those got most of his info from me. He's related to one of the maids who worked there.....from memory.
I don't think this was on TNA last time we looked, was it?
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7954704
Definitely not, or I would have chased it. Those documents are stored in Cheshire and (I think) arranged in chronological order, rather than by case. The TNA expert is now involved in other things.
Mary from Italy
10-06-16, 12:16
Libby, I think that document may be worth getting :)
By the looks of things, all it is doing is asking the solicitors to attend, The embedded reference is likely to be more useful.
I chased my "money lost in Chancery" story and it took several visits, leaping between references and ordering documents which took 3 days to arrive.
Mary from Italy
10-06-16, 13:15
Doesn't an administration summons mean that somebody sued the administrators of her estate? (Edward Jarrett Ransford was one of Agatha's executors, and admon was granted with the will annexed.) But I must admit I know very little about probate law, especially in that period.
Mary from Italy
10-06-16, 13:23
Oh no, ignore that; I've just found a reference online stating that the court can summon the executors to prove or renounce the will, so that's probably what "administration summons" means.
Mary from Italy
15-06-16, 21:51
Just bumping this thread in case Libby missed post 33.
Just bumping this thread in case Libby missed post 33.
Sorry Mary....my brain was telling me I'd answered that...lol.
I did look at it and it seemed to want over 8 pounds to look at it and copy one page, and then give me a quote for the rest. I could afford 8 pounds, but not sure I want to pay that to find I've got the cover page and it's another 50 pounds for the rest.
I asked for a quote for something ages ago and was told over 200pounds, and they couldn't tell me if the family was mentioned other than the one time.
Mary from Italy
16-06-16, 00:38
Oh, that's a pity - I hadn't realised they'd changed their system. They used to give you a free estimate.
Still, it's worth bearing in mind in case anyone offers look-ups at the National Archives in future.
Mary from Italy
28-08-17, 02:08
I came across the TNA entry from post 35 today, and realised it might be worth following up.
I wrongly said upthread that Ransford was one of Agatha's executors, but her administrator was actually William Minet. The defendants Bates and Ransford were her mother Elizabeth Ariel's administrators.
So I'm wondering whether Agatha's estate sued her mother's administrators?
Her mother, Elizabeth was the one who's will was overturned and she was declared intestate. That always amused me because she was married, I didn't think she could be intestate.
Mary from Italy
28-08-17, 12:36
However, if I remember rightly, administration was granted with the will annexed, so although I'm no expert in these things, I think that means that the terms of her will would have been carried out.
Also if I remember rightly, the last payment from the trust fund was made in 1857, which is the date of this administration summons, so I wonder if Agatha's husband took action to get some money from the trust fund?
I don't know. I know Elizabeth's son, Myles came to Australia with his wife and children in the 1850s.
Myles went missing (seems to be an Ariel thing) and after Lucretia died, his wife applied for money from her will. I really think Elizabeth's money went completely to her husband, then he remarried and changed his will for everything to go to his new wife. A few months later he was dead as well.
Mary from Italy
28-08-17, 21:36
It's irritating not to know what happened in 1857. I wonder if Phoenix has any plans to go to Kew? :)
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