View Full Version : Looking for La Granda Alpha Watson
I am looking for the family of La Granda Alpha Watson and ideally what happened to his parents. Alpha, as he was known, was born (April, May or June) 1875 in Cononley, Yorkshire. In the 1881 and 1891 census, it says his relationship to the head of the house (Christopher Mason) is nephew. Christopher's wife is Elizabeth Mason.
I know he emigrated to Australia twice - 1898 and 1919 (returning to England in between), where he eventually dies 12/5/1938, leaving he is widow Annie Watson (nee Pickles).
Any information about his parents or family besides his wife Annie and daughter Lizzie is greatly appreciated.
Thanks Nerrida
Hi Nerrida! I'll just put these here for reference.
1881 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/WRYRG11_4301_4306-0690?pid=23721052&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26db%3Duki1881%26h%3D23721052%26 tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DxJa627% 26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26rhS ource%3D2352&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=xJa627&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true)
Christopher Mason 37
Elizabeth Mason 38
Le Granda A. Watson 5
Jane Mason 5
1891 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/LANRG12_3361_3363-0614?pid=22374803&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26db%3Duki1891%26h%3D22374803%26 tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DxJa627% 26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26rhS ource%3D7572&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=xJa627&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) (I corrected all three mistranscribed as "Cason" to Mason.)
Christopher Cason 47
Elizabeth Cason 48
Jane Cason 15
Legranda A Watson 15
1901 (http://interactive.ancestry.com/7814/LANRG13_3879_3881-0386/24615310?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.com% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dxJa621%26_phstart%3dsucce ssSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1901%26so%3d2 %26pcat%3d35%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3dAlpha%26gsfn_x%3d1 %26gsln%3dWatson%26gsln_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d0%26uidh%3d 9uh&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults) (Ancestry had Mason transcribed as Mabon. I put in the correction.)
Elizabeth Mabon 57
Alfred Smith 24
Jane Smith 24
Ernest Smith 3
Alpha Watson 25
Annie Watson 26
Lizzie Watson 3/12
1911 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_02950_0233_03?pid=41438412&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DxJa627%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource %26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26 gsfn%3DAlpha%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln%3DWatson%26gsln_x %3D1%26gskw%3DCononley%26gskw_x%3D1%26MSAV%3D-1%26uidh%3D9uh%26pcat%3D1911UKI%26h%3D41438412%26d b%3D1911England%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=xJa627&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) (Ancestry had him indexed as female. I've put in the correction.)
9 Progress Villas, Gladstone Road Ashtead, Surrey
Alpha Watson 35
Annie Watson 39
Lizzie Watson 10
I guess you have not acquired his birth certificate? And what about his marriage certificate?
Christopher and Elizabeth married between 1861 and 1871 (censuses). This marriage looks likely:
Marriages Jun 1866
BARRETT Sarah J Skipton 9a 51
Mason Christopher Skipton 9a 51 <<<<<<<<<<<<
Watson Elizabeth Skipton 9a 51 <<<<<<<<<<<<
Watson James Skipton 9a 51
I don't know if James Watson is connected yet.
The PR for the marriage is on fmp - I don't have time to type it out but Eliz's father (so presumably also Alpha's grandfather) is George Watson, miner.
Ancestry is being difficult, but this is them in 1861 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/WRYRG9_3184_3187-0554?pid=15020184&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DxPI1173%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3Duki1861%26g ss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26 gsfn%3Delizabeth%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln%3Dwatson%26gs ln_x%3D1%26msbdy%3D1843%26msbdy_x%3D1%26msbdp%3D2% 26msfng%3Dgeorge%26msfng_x%3D1%26msfns%3Dwatson%26 msfns_x%3D1%26gskw%3Dyorkshire%26gskw_x%3D1%26cpxt %3D1%26cp%3D11%26catbucket%3Drstp%26MSAV%3D2%26uid h%3D672%26pcat%3D35%26fh%3D2%26h%3D15020184%26reco ff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D3&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=xPI1173&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true):
George Watson 51
Jane Watson 43
Thomas Watson 20
Elizabeth Watson 18
Marmaduke Watson 15
Mary Ann Watson 12
John Watson 10
Ancestry won't let me see the 1851 page, but these are the people you need to look for!
George Watson 40
Jane Watson 32
Thomas Watson 9
Elizabeth Watson 8
Marmaduke Watson 6
Mary A Watson 2
John Watson 5 Mo
So, it's likely one of those siblings is Alpha's parent.
Oooh, no more time now and I can't cope with endlessly seeing the 'not available' page.....
Here's the 1851 (http://interactive.ancestry.com/8860/YRKHO107_2280_2280-0208/13829423?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.com% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1851%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db %26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dGeor ge%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3d%253fatson%26gsln_x%3dNP_ NN%26msbdy%3d1811%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26mscn g%3dMarmaduke%26mscng_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d-1%26uidh%3d9uh&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults).
George Watson 40
Jane Watson 32
Thomas Watson 9
Elizabeth Watson 8
Marmaduke Watson 6
Mary A Watson 2
John Watson 5 Mo
Christopher Mason is on the same page of the 1861, toward the bottom.
Here's the PR on FMP.
03 Apr 1866 Christopher Mason-Elizabeth Watson (http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fyorkshire%2f13-0743_gb-yor_parish-registers-n-pr-kld-1-25-1537-1900%2f00227&parentid=gbprs%2fyorkshire%2fmar%2f301593063%2f1&highlights=%22%22)
First name(s) Christopher
Last name Mason
Age Full Age
Birth year -
Marriage year 1866
Marriage date 03 Apr 1866
Marriage place Kildwick
Residence Crosshills
Father's first name(s) William
Father's last name Mason
Spouse's first name(s) Elizabeth
Spouse's last name Watson
Spouse's age Full Age
Spouse's residence Cononley
Spouse's father's first name(s) George
Spouse's father's last name Watson
County Yorkshire (West Riding)
Country England
Archive North Yorkshire County Record Office
Archive reference N-PR-KLD1-25
Page 223
Record set Yorkshire Marriages
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain
ElizabethHerts
26-05-16, 07:19
Probate 1939
Le Granda Alpha of South-street Albany Western Australia died 12 May 1938 at Government Hospital Vancouver-street Albany Probate Perth to Annie Watson widow and George Herbert Haywood orchardist
Effects £568 3s 1d in England.
Sealed London 16 January.
kiterunner
26-05-16, 09:06
Alpha, as he was known, was born (April, May or June) 1875 in Cononley, Yorkshire.
If you mean that his birth was registered April - June, we get 6 weeks to register a birth, so he could also have been born in February or March.
ElizabethHerts
26-05-16, 09:27
On the 1891 Census the family are living at Clegg-street, Burnley.
Christopher died on 1st October 1891.
His administration is in the probate calendar.
MASON Christopher
21 October
Administration of the Personal Estate of Christopher Mason late of 1 Clegg-street Burnley in the County of Lancaster Engine Tenter who died 1 October 1891 at Burnley was granted at the Principal Registry to Elizabeth Mason of 1 Clegg-street Widow the Relict.
Personal Estate £502 18s 5d
kiterunner
26-05-16, 09:27
Do you know whether Alpha's death certificate gives his parents' names, Nerrida? Though I realise sometimes parents' names on death certs are not accurate.
Do you know whether Alpha's death certificate gives his parents' names, Nerrida? Though I realise sometimes parents' names on death certs are not accurate.
I tried entering forenames for the potential parents on the search page for his death cert, but I think perhaps that only works for births as I got no results for any name no matter how commonplace. I realise this doesn't mean there isn't further info on the actual death cert though. (I don't have any experience of certs from Perth.)
OK, so who can we eliminate, if any!
Thomas Watson b abt 1841 was still single and living with his parents in 1881. He is recorded as deaf and dumb. It seems very unlikely Alpha would be his child.
We already know Elizabeth b abt 1843 is Alpha's aunt.
Marmaduke married Agnes Wilson in 1870. In 1881 they had two children b in Cononley aged 9 and 4 (EDIT one called Jackson, see next post), so they could have had Alpha in between.
Mary Ann b abt 1848 is single and living with parent(s) in 1871 and 1881 so she might have had Alpha illegitimately and let her married sister bring him up.
I can't find John (b abt 1850) after the 1871 census. This death could be his:
Deaths Dec 1878
WATSON John 27 Skipton 9a 31
but had he married?
I wondered about this marriage (relative of Agnes, above, possibly?)
Marriages Jun 1871
AIRTON Anthony Skipton 9a 70
EMMOTT Martha Ann Skipton 9a 70
WATSON John Skipton 9a 70 <<<<<<<<<
Wilson Elizabeth Skipton 9a 70 <<<<<<<<<
but I've not yet established they married each other. If John did marry Elizabeth then maybe she died in childbirth:
Deaths Jun 1875
Watson Elizabeth 24 Skipton 9a 29
I'll do a bit more looking.
Hmmm, I had hoped Agnes and Elizabeth Wilson might be sisters, but, whilst I'm sure I'm looking at the right family for Agnes as she has a brother called Jackson, she doesn't seem to have a sibling named Elizabeth.
I'm also still trying to find the right Anthony Airton!
kiterunner
26-05-16, 12:42
I should think the best way to find out for sure would be for Nerrida to order the birth certificate.
Hmmm. there is an Elizabeth Wilson of the right age (to fit with that death in 1875) on the 1851 - 1871 census in Cononley. She switches from being the granddaughter to the niece of the same head of house so it might take some work to see exactly who she is.
You know you are going to have to get the birth cert for Alpha in the end?!! :D
I should think the best way to find out for sure would be for Nerrida to order the birth certificate.
Exactly! lol
Well, it looks like John Watson did marry Elizabeth Wilson. I think this first entry below should say her age!
From St John's Parish Church Cononley Monumental Inscriptions pdf:
D26 In affectionate remembrance of ELIZABETH the beloved wife of
JOHN WATSON of Cononley who died April 13th 1875 in the 25th year of his (?) age
D34 In loving memory of GEORGE WATSON of Cononley who died August 30 t h 1885 aged 75 years.
Also JANE his wife who died July l4th 1889 aged 71 years. Also THOMAS their son who died August 29th 1885 aged 43 years.
Also MARY ANN their daughter who died January 21 st 1897 aged 48 years. "Sweet rest at last"
Mary from Italy
26-05-16, 17:51
Marriage:
First name(s) Elizabeth
Last name Wilson
Age Full
Birth year -
Marriage year 1871
Marriage date 08 Apr 1871
Marriage place Kildwick
Residence Cononley
Father's first name(s) Isaac
Father's last name Wilson
Spouse's first name(s) John
Spouse's last name Watson
Spouse's age Full
Spouse's residence Cononley
Spouse's father's first name(s) George
Spouse's father's last name Watson
One of the witnesses was Susannah Wilson. The other witness was also a Wilson, but I can't read the name. Maybe Ann.
There is a short article in Trove containing much of the information you have already outlined....presume you may have seen it.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/70448823?searchTerm=annie%20pickles%20watson&searchLimits=l-state=Western+Australia
A Western Australian death certificate is pretty informative...if the relevant details were known to the informant. It would list parents, mother's maiden name, father's occupation, children both living and dead, occupation, and time spent in the State.
However, my Irish grand mother's death cert, issued in a comparable period, is full of errors simply because the informant was unaware of much of her back ground.
You can download the application form online, but certs must be applied for via the post.
http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx
if the relevant details were known to the informant. It would list parents, mother's maiden name, father's occupation, children both living and dead, occupation, and time spent in the State.
I used this search form:
http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx
I clicked Deaths and on the next page if I entered Watson and 1938-1938 then I got 19 results with Alpha's being the second one. I then went back to the search, left the surname and date as before and added various forenames one at a time in either the father or mother boxes. I used the names that had come up in this thread plus several other common ones - maybe ten or twelve names altogether but at no point did I get any result suggesting none of the 19 deaths had any of those names recorded as their parents. I could see it would be pretty likely Alpha's parent's names might not be known, but it seemed unlikely I would get no results al all unless searching on parent's names for deaths doesn't work and you have to wait and see what is on the cert?
Anyway, as it's available, getting the birth cert would be the safest option!
Merry, I think you do just have to take 'pot luck' with WA death certs. Unlike the birth indexes, where you can use parents' names to search to some extent, I don't think you can similarly search death indexes.
The indexes do not display names of mother or father in the listing for my grand parents' deaths. But my grandfather's certificate gives full details of parents, whereas my grandmother's cert simply says 'unknown' in the relevant columns. I have no idea why some entries list parental names and others do not.
i agree you would do better to acquire the birth certificate.....I just posted in case anyone was interested in WA death certs and what they might expect to find on them. Quite a lot, if you are lucky with the informant.
Thanks for the info MacBev. It's always good to know how different searches work on different sites.
I was just looking at Marmaduke and Agnes again.
They married in 1870 and are together on each census until Marmaduke's death in 1905. In 1911 Agnes is a widow, living with her married daughter and son-in-law. She has given the number of children born in her marriage as 5 with three surviving and two dec'd.
They seem to be:
Willie b 1871 (was with Wilson grandparents/uncle in 1881 and 1891 but marriage cert confirms father's name)
Jackson b 1872
Frances Annie b 1876 d 1899
Margaret b 1882 married Craven Clifford in 1911 and Agnes is with them for the 1911 census
Jane b 1890 d 1898
So apparently she is not the mother of Alpha. I still think you need that birth cert to be sure though!
Hello Everyone
Thankyou very, very much for all your contributions! I haven't ordered either birth or death certificates, due to being concerned that after paying the hefty fees they won't have the details I want. In those days did the mother have to disclose her name if the child was illegitimate? I must admit I am leaning towards the John Watson and Elizabeth Wilson combination.
Once again, a huge big thankyou to everyone who contributed.
Warm Regards
Nerrida xx
If Alpha was illegitimate and the father had accompanied the mother to the register office (she could not declare the name of the father independently if they were not married) then there would be a further entry in the GRO index giving his surname and the same volume and page number so leading to the same certificate. (there's more info about restrictions on whether a putative father's name could be entered at different times in history under the Column 4 section here (http://www.dixons.clara.co.uk/Certificates/births.htm#COL4) Note that one of the changed occurred in 1875!). There is no second entry for Alpha with a different surname so that doesn't appear to be the case here. That doesn't mean he wasn't illegitimate, just that no father was named if he was!
Here's an example of a birth registered where the parents were not married but the father is named on the cert - the mother's surname was Packer and the father's Cotton:
Births Jun 1846
Cotton Robert William St. Giles & St. George Bloomsbury 1 57
Packer Robert William St. Giles & St. George Bloomsbury 1 57
To establish Alpha's parent(s) names you would need to purchase his birth cert and the other certs available may have unreliable or missing information. Of course he was probably baptised but the records for local churches don't seem to be online and in the end it would probably cost you more money, and certainly more time, to try and trace the baptism (if there was one) at this point in time.
kiterunner
29-05-16, 10:02
In those days did the mother have to disclose her name if the child was illegitimate?
Yes, the birth certificate will give the mother's name even if the child was illegitimate.
Mary from Italy
29-05-16, 12:05
Yes, the birth certificate will give the mother's name even if the child was illegitimate.
Unless he was a foundling, ie. actually abandoned by the mother so no-one knew who she was, but in this case that's very unlikely, as he was brought up by family.
La Granda Alpha is a very good name.
Who was it that had twins called Alpha and Omega?
.
Who was it that had twins called Alpha and Omega?
Me! Well, not personally, but those were the original names of my great-grandfather's twin brothers (before they became Francis and Frederick).
Nonetheless, Merry, I still like to think of them as being yours. ;)
I am rather intrigued about the thinking behind such a grand name :)
after paying the hefty fees
There is a vast array of prices to be paid for England/wales certs - don't be taken in by vastly inflated charges to be seen on many websites including ancestry. If you buy from the GRO they re £9.25 regardless of where you live and sometimes a pound or so more from a local register office (more expensive from a local office if you are overseas). These are the max amount you should pay.
Thanks for that information Merry. I had seen 22.95 pounds - a big difference!
Nerrida,
As has been said; never, ever buy certificates directly through Ancestry or another family tree website. Always buy directly from the General Register Office:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
You can use FreeBMD to find the information you need to order the certificate:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Always buy directly from the General Register Office:
Unless it's important for you to see an original signature on a certificate in which case you would need to order from the local office and ask for a photocopy of the original cert.
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