View Full Version : Looking for Edward Green in 1841
Just Gillian
17-04-16, 10:01
Edward Green, born Turnham Green, Middlesex c 1810
Edward Green, widower, painter, of York Street, Westminster married Sarah Childs in St Margaret's Westminster in 1844. His father's name was not given.
In 1851 he is living in Castle Place, Chiswick. He is a painter, journeyman.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/BRKHO107_1699_1699-0538/3809633?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1851%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_db%2 6new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dEdward%26gs fn_x%3d0%26gsln%3dGreen%26gsln_x%3d0%26msbdy%3d181 0%26msbpn__ftp%3dTurnham%2bGreen%252c%2bMiddlesex% 252c%2bEngland%26msbpn%3d1671364%26msbpn_PInfo%3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5275%257c1671364%257c0%257c%26MSAV%3d0%26uidh%3 dyg6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
He was buried in St Mary's, Fulham, 7th June 1860.
I'd have liked to be able to identify his earlier marriage/marriages on the off chance that he named his father.
Can anyone identify a likely candidate in 1841 please? I've looked on Ancestry and FMP without any success.
ElizabethHerts
17-04-16, 10:24
Here is his marriage to Sarah Childs:
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fwsmtn%2f005620258%2f00104&parentid=gbprs%2fm%2f492435405%2f1
The absence of a father's name and occupation, very purposefully crossed through, implies he was illegitimate.
ElizabethHerts
17-04-16, 10:34
There is another marriage at St Margaret's, Westminster, but this time in 1830. The Edward Green marrying then was also a widower, no occupation given.
His bride was Mary Ann Dallison, a widow.
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fwsmtn%2f005620256%2f00365&parentid=gbprs%2fm%2f492334018%2f1
Just Gillian
17-04-16, 10:43
Thanks Elizabeth. I thought the marriage cert suggested he was probably illegitimate.
I came across a burial for a Mary Ann Green in the right place and timeframe but can't remember what age she was - I'll have to go and look for that again, although he'd have been rather young to be a widower already by 1830.
If he was widowed by 1844, there is just a chance that he is with his mother in 1841 so that would be a great find!
kiterunner
17-04-16, 10:43
There is a Mary Green of Turnham Green buried 26 Oct 1838 at St Nicholas, Chiswick, age 23 - possible for his first wife? But Green is such a common name that she could be unconnected.
Mary from Italy
17-04-16, 10:50
There's an Elizh Green, female, 30, living with family in Turnham Green in 1841; I wonder if that could be an error by the enumerator?
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/MDXHO107_688_689-0460/7530797?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1841%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db %26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsln%3dgree n%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1810%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbd p%3d5%26gskw%3dchiswick%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d-1%26uidh%3dyc2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
I think she's probably the wife of the Joseph who appears above her on the schedule, though.
Still, it might be worth investigating that family to see if Edward's related to them. As he was born in Turnham Green and living there in 1851, you'd think he'd be there in 1841 too.
Have you found his baptism?
Just Gillian
17-04-16, 11:06
There is a Mary Green of Turnham Green buried 26 Oct 1838 at St Nicholas, Chiswick, age 23 - possible for his first wife? But Green is such a common name that she could be unconnected.
Thanks Kate. I think that must be the one I was thinking of so Mary, not Mary Ann.
I'm thinking his previous marriage was possibly quite brief as there are no possible children of it with him in 1851.
Green is a horrible one to look for! I have never been able to confirm what happened to the son Henry from the 1851 either. Edit: Oops - I forgot that Henry wasn't on the 1851 - he was born 1853!
There's an Elizh Green, female, 30, living with family in Turnham Green in 1841; I wonder if that could be an error by the enumerator?
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/MDXHO107_688_689-0460/7530797?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1841%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db %26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsln%3dgree n%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1810%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbd p%3d5%26gskw%3dchiswick%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d-1%26uidh%3dyc2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
I think she's probably the wife of the Joseph who appears above her on the schedule, though.
Still, it might be worth investigating that family to see if Edward's related to them. As he was born in Turnham Green and living there in 1851, you'd think he'd be there in 1841 too.
Have you found his baptism?
Thanks Mary.
No, I haven't found a baptism for him - without even a mother's name I have nothing to go on.
I had hoped he'd be in Turnham Green/Chiswick in 1841 but he was in Westminster at the time of his marriage in 1844.
As he was a journeyman, I'd have expected to find him as a painter in 1841.
I've just discovered that I've missed the elderly lady next door's birthday today so I have to shoot out now for some flowers and a card but will be back shortly.
Mary from Italy
17-04-16, 13:40
There is a Mary Green of Turnham Green buried 26 Oct 1838 at St Nicholas, Chiswick, age 23 - possible for his first wife? But Green is such a common name that she could be unconnected.
I haven't found a likely marriage for them in the right period.
There is a Mary Green of Turnham Green buried 26 Oct 1838 at St Nicholas, Chiswick, age 23 - possible for his first wife? But Green is such a common name that she could be unconnected.
I would like to tie that to this, or eliminate Louisa Mary Ann, but not having any luck at the moment!:
First name(s) EDWARD
Last name GREEN
Marriage year 1837
Marriage day 5
Marriage month SEP
Place CHISWICK
Spouse's first name(s) Louisa Mary Ann
Spouse's last name Cotterhaynes
County Middlesex
Country England
Source St.Nicholas Chiswick 1813-1855
Record set Thames & Medway Marriages
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain
Just Gillian
17-04-16, 14:05
Thank you for looking Mary.
Sadly, it looks as if Edward Green will be as far back as I can go on that line then.
I am surprised he doesnt show up in 1841, given that the name Green is not likely to be mistranscribed.
I see Edward had daughters Louisa and Mary Ann with his second wife.
On the GRO index Louisa is Louisa Mary Ann Cotter Haynes (ie her surname is Haynes.)
Oh, in 1841 have you eliminated the Edward Green in Chiswick, a gardener, aged 25 (so heavily rounded down?) living with an Ann Maynes (could that be Haynes?) aged 60? Maybe he is the husband in the marriage I posted but not your man? (I haven't looked for him anywhere else yet, because I thought I'd ask you about him first!)
Just Gillian
17-04-16, 14:40
I was just looking at the Edward with Ann Maynes in 1841 Merry. I don't think I eliminated him in the past.
Yes, I registered the Louisa and Mary Ann connection to Louisa Cotter Haynes. I wondered if a second wife would be happy to name 2 of her children after a deceased previous wife but the names don't tie in with anyone in Sarah Childs' family.
Just Gillian
17-04-16, 14:46
Can't see that Ann Maynes in 1851.
No Brentford death for Ann Maynes before 1851 but two for Ann Haynes in 1854 and 1856.
So, have you found an Edward and Louisa anywhere else who might have married in Chiswick in 1837?
On fmp there are seven Edward Greens transcribed with occ garden* in 1851 but I don't think any of them are the same chap as the one in Chiswick in 1841.
I wonder if this is Ann "Mayne's" burial?
Ann Haynes b abt 1778 bur 21 Mar 1844 St Nicholas, Chiswick
kiterunner
17-04-16, 15:53
The St Nicholas, Chiswick marriage PR images on ancestry only seem to go up to the introduction of civil registration in 1837, but you could order a copy of that marriage cert from the GRO to see whether it looks like your Edward or not, and if so, whether there are any details of his father on it.
kiterunner
17-04-16, 16:16
Or you could contact St Nicholas Chiswick Archives as they say that "Complete registers of baptisms, marriages and burials from 1678 indexed by surname to the present day are also held." and that "The Archive Group is involved every week in answering enquiries from the descendants of past parishioners who visit and write from all over the world, somevia the parish web site. Graves are found, photographs and maps are sent by email and family trees researched."
http://www.stnicholaschiswick.org/heritage/archives/
They might be able to find Edward's baptism for you - it doesn't look as though pre-1813 baptisms for St Nicholas Chiswick are online.
Just Gillian
17-04-16, 16:44
Sorry, one of my brood phoned for a long catch up. I'm just going to cook quickly before the other one phones for their long turn!
Thank you for all your efforts Merry and Kate. I'll read it all properly after I've eaten.
I don't think there will be any way to identify Edward's baptism as I don't have either parent.
I don't think there will be any way to identify Edward's baptism as I don't have either parent.
Surely its no different to if he had married in 1836? Then you would have no parent info, but if there's a bap in 1810 in Chiswick for an Edward Green aren't you going to think it's the right one, especially if he has no father recorded?!
Who were the marriage witnesses at his second marriage? Maybe they, or the witnesses at the first marriage (if you decide it's the right Edward!), might throw some light on the problem?
Just Gillian
17-04-16, 17:05
Merry - Yes, I would think it highly probable that it was the right baptism but would have liked to have had him with a probable relative in 1841 for confirmation, especially as it is a common name.
I haven't found any link between the witnesses to ther marriage and either the bride or groom. I can't remember offhand whether they were regular witnesses at other marriages - I'll have to revisit that couple.
Just Gillian
17-04-16, 22:37
Or you could contact St Nicholas Chiswick Archives as they say that "Complete registers of baptisms, marriages and burials from 1678 indexed by surname to the present day are also held." and that "The Archive Group is involved every week in answering enquiries from the descendants of past parishioners who visit and write from all over the world, somevia the parish web site. Graves are found, photographs and maps are sent by email and family trees researched."
http://www.stnicholaschiswick.org/heritage/archives/
They might be able to find Edward's baptism for you - it doesn't look as though pre-1813 baptisms for St Nicholas Chiswick are online.
Thanks for that link Kate! It looks very interesting. I think I'll start by contacting them and then, depending on what they say, consider sending for that marriage cert.
Just Gillian
17-04-16, 23:37
A bit of a development - I must have last checked the Chilton witnesses at Edward Green's marriage before the PRs were on FMP
A Charles Chilton married a Mary Ann Green at St Margaret's Westminster in 1830 -
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fwsmtn%2f005620256%2f00353&parentid=gbprs%2fm%2f492333942%2f1&highlights=%22%22
He remarried, to a Jane Hill, in 1846
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fwsmtn%2f005620200%2f00227&parentid=gbprs%2fm%2f492409144%2f1&highlights=%22%22
Mary Ann Chilton's death was registered Kensington Mar Q 1845
This is the couple in 1841 -
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/MDXHO107_689_690-0532/7571609?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dpubmembertrees%26gss%3dsfs28_ ms_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dChar les%26gsfn_x%3d0%26gsln%3dChilton%26gsln_x%3d0%26m sbdy%3d1801%26msbpn__ftp%3dMiddlesex%252c%2bEnglan d%26msbpn%3d5275%26msbpn_PInfo%3d7-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5275%257c0%257c0%257c%26MSAV%3d0%26uidh%3dyg6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Mary Ann, aged 30, was born Middlesex, so a possible sibling to Edward.
And Charles with Jane in 1851 -
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/MDXHO107_1471_1472-0510?pid=2162136&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1851%26indiv%3dtry%26h%3d2 162136&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true
So when I contact the Archives, I can ask them to look for baptisms for both an Edward Green and a Mary Ann, with no father named but the same mothers.
Mary Ann Chilton's death was registered Kensington Mar Q 1845
The burial took place at St George Hanover Square on 26 Jan 1845. Mary Ann was recorded as aged 39.
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fd%2f490739676%2f1
Just Gillian
18-04-16, 08:08
Thanks for that Merry! I've so rarely had a sub to FMP that I'm not good at all at finding their London records.
I'm struggling to make out the name of the witness to Charles Chilton and Mary Ann Green's marriage. Richard something?
I've found the marriages of all the Chilton children but, sadly, there were no Edward Green related witnesses.
I'm always confused about the original signature/copy signature question. Would the signatures on the Chilton/Green marriage and the Edward Green/Sarah Childs marriage be the originals?
Yes they will be original signatures (any pre-1837 marriage from the PR will be, though sometimes I have seen pretty obvious copies especially in the London records, where the vicar has produced a second set of records for some reason - generally those sorts of copies are not filled out on the official stationery!)
After 1837 - If you are looking at online parish registers (on the correct stationery) generally the sigs will be original. If you are looking at a photocopy of a cert from the local registrars the sigs should be original (obviously any other sort of copy from a local registrar won't be original sigs). If you are looking at a GRO certificate then the signatures will be transcriptions.
I think this is the first witness on the Chilton Green marriage:
Deaths Jun 1847
Chavell Richard Billett Holborn 2 96
I think the other one is probably Richard Martin.
I think this is the first witness on the Chilton Green marriage:
Deaths Jun 1847
Chavell Richard Billett Holborn 2 96
Assuming there's only one person with that name (!), in 1829 his wife was called Rebecca (Old Bailey proceedings)
He was 50 at death in 1847.
....and he was bap in 1797 at St Mary-le-Strand (fmp), parents James and Sarah. Can't see a marriage yet!
In 1836 he says he was employed by the Mendicity Society (Old Bailey again) and that he was a married man at that date. Still nothing for a marriage or death of Rebecca.
Here they are in 1841. He says he was a tin plate worker.
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC/1841/0671/0083&parentid=GBC/1841/0007118054
ancestry have transcribed the surname as Charil.
ElizabethHerts
18-04-16, 09:25
Here they are in 1841. He says he was a tin plate worker.
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC/1841/0671/0083&parentid=GBC/1841/0007118054
Merry, it looks more like "Iron plate worker". James Salter? below him is an Ironmonger and the "iron" part looks the same.
Yes, I was just looking at that again and you're right! lol
I suppose it would be too much to ask for his wife Rebecca to be a Green connection anyway?!! lol Probably the other, more difficult to pin down, witness is going to be the 'connected' one, if any!!
I have never been able to confirm what happened to the son Henry from the 1851 either. Edit: Oops - I forgot that Henry wasn't on the 1851 - he was born 1853!
He is with his mother in 1861 and 1871 at Turnham Green and I wonder if this is his death?
First name(s) Henry
Last name Green
Age 24
Birth year -
Burial year 1880
Burial date 12 Feb 1880
Death year 1880
Origin Turnham Green
Burial place Chiswick
Place Chiswick
County Middlesex
Country England
Source St.Nicholas Chiswick 1855-1901 burials
Record set Thames & Medway Burials
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Deaths & burials
Collections from Great Britain
Deaths Mar 1880
Green Henry 24 Brentford 3a 69
Just Gillian
18-04-16, 18:44
Merry - thanks for the information re original and transcribed signatures. I've a feeling it's not the first time you've had to explain that to me :o
Thanks too Merry and Elizabeth for the deciphering of the witness names and finding Richard Chavell's occupation etc.
I had heard of the Mendicity Society but knew nothing about it so have just been reading some fascinating articles about it - these, usually irrelevant, sidetracks are one of the elements of family history research that I have always enjoyed!
I wondered about the Henry Green of Turnham Green burial but my Henry's dob was 28 Jan 1853 so the age is out by 4 years. His brother Charles George was buried there 22 Nov 1879 (wonder if there was any connection, if it is my Henry, or just a coincidence?) and his age at death was correct.
So, out of Edward Green's five children, the two sons were unmarried and had no known children, the eldest daughter died unmarried, the youngest daughter had one illegitimate son who was unmarried and was killed in WWI (she left her money to a missionary in 1933), and only the middle daughter, Mary Anne, married and had children. Of her 6 children, 3 died in infancy, one, unmarried, at the age of 21, so only two left who produced children.
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