View Full Version : Percival George Horne - missing in 1891?
Hi all,
I'm trying to locate Percy Horne's family on the 1891 census. He was registered as George Percy Horne in Elham, Kent Dec 1880, but he went by the name Percival George Horne in later life. He died in 1917 during the First World War.
I have him, as a baby, at home with his parents in Folkestone in 1881 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7572&h=8579391&ssrc=pt&tid=84918040&pid=30509565947&usePUB=true), as a boarder in Chertsey in 1901 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7814&h=4527323&ssrc=pt&tid=84918040&pid=30509565947&usePUB=true), and at home with his first wife in 1911 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2352&h=41505199&ssrc=pt&tid=84918040&pid=30509565947&usePUB=true).
There do appear to be a couple of other Horne families in Kent, but I am unsure what to make of the discrepancies. For example, one of them has George Horne (the father) born in Ruckinge, Kent -- Percy's father (also a George) is down as being born in Chertsey, and I think that is where the family were from as it's where Percy eventually moved back to.
There are some baptisms on Ancestry for some other Horne children, and I suspect they will be for two (or more) separate families:
Herbert Henry Horne (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=try&db=FS1EnglandBirthsandChristenings&h=9420293) (died as a baby)
John Thomas Horne (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=try&db=FS1EnglandBirthsandChristenings&h=23503906)
Walter Horne (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=try&db=FS1EnglandBirthsandChristenings&h=23515930)
George Frederick Hodgson Horne (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=try&db=FS1EnglandBirthsandChristenings&h=173137004)
I think I have found Percy's father in 1871 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=George&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Horne&gsln_x=0&msbdy=1856&msbpn__ftp=Chertsey%2c+Surrey%2c+England&msbpn=87707&msbpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5286%7c87707% 7c0%7c&msrpn__ftp=Addlestone%2c+Surrey%2c+England&msrpn=87687&msrpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5286%7c87687% 7c0%7c&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=35&h=6011797&db=uki1871&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1), living as a boarder in Chertsey, but I can't find him or his wife (Jane or Eliza Jane?) after 1881, or Percy in 1891. I assume George is still alive until at least 1904, as he is not mentioned as deceased on Percy's marriage entry.
Can anyone find this particular Horne family? I think the Ruckinge lot are a different family and I'm trying to unravel the two.
Thank you. :)
kiterunner
11-04-16, 22:14
Not found him yet, but this could be his parents' marriage on FamilySearch:
George Horne, 23, single, married Jane Watson, 23, single, 3 Apr 1879 Folkestone, Kent, fathers' names Harry Horne and John Watson.
kiterunner
11-04-16, 22:23
So this looks like George with his family in 1861:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/KENRG9_420_423-0742?pid=6737022&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dgeo*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dhorn*%26gsln_x%3 d1%26msbdy%3d1856%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26msfn g%3dh*r*y%26msfng_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26 pcat%3d1861UKI%26h%3d6737022%26db%3duki1861%26indi v%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d2&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true
kiterunner
11-04-16, 22:25
And this could be Jane with her family in 1861, under the name Eliza Jane:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/MONRG9_3980_3986-0566/13388404?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1861%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3djan e%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dw*t*s*n*%26gsln_x%3d1%26ms bdy%3d1856%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26msfng%3djoh n%26msfng_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26gl%3d%26 gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d30%26fsk%3dBEDTMzMIgAAiPwE GIy8-61-&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
kiterunner
11-04-16, 22:31
There is an Eliza Jane Horn death Oct-Dec 1890 West Ham district, age 35.
I was a bit confused by the bap for George Frederick Hodgson Horne (Oct 1882 Folkestone, parents Geo and Eliza Jane) who seems to appear nowhere else! Could he be George Percy with another name variation?
I should think this child belongs you your couple:
Births Sep 1882
Horne Frederick Watson Elham 2a 997
He seems to be a boarder in Chertsey in 1901 but that's the only positive sighting I had.
I was a bit confused by the bap for George Frederick Hodgson Horne (Oct 1882 Folkestone, parents Geo and Eliza Jane) who seems to appear nowhere else! Could he be George Percy with another name variation?
I just found the bap image for the above on fmp. There is no address recorded, just Folkestone. The father is a butler (step up from hotel waiter in 1881?!). It's the only baptism on the double page not to have a dob recorded. :rolleyes: I just registered the fact that this bap is after Frederick Watson Horne's birth, so the bap could be George Percy or Frederick Watson!! Could Hodgson have been a mis-hearing of Watson?
This family remind me of my Wells family and that isn't a good thing!
The bap for Herbert Henry Horne you linked to in the opening post is also on fmp. Address Guildhall St, father's occ waiter.
re the 1891 census, I'm wondering about these two...
ancestry have Percey Horn b 1887 and Fredk Horn b 1882 (those spellings and years) both b Chertsey as inmates of an institution I haven't got time to check the name of, but it's in Ottershaw*. Though they've transcribed Percy's age as 4 I think he is listed as 11.
You would need to see if there were boys with these names registered for birth in Chertsey district if you want to try and eliminate them, but you said the family had Chertsey links so I can see how the birth places might have become confused.
Time to go to the dentist now...........:eek:
*EDIT - Chertsey Union Workhouse
You would need to see if there were boys with these names registered for birth in Chertsey district if you want to try and eliminate them
I've not been able to eliminate them!
There are a couple of entries here that might be brother Frederick, but I couldn't find any records for the 1880s.
http://www.exploringsurreyspast.org.uk/collections/getrecord/SHIND_CHERTSEY_BG_ADM_DIS_1800_2000_H4
Merry, you're a very clever girl. I think that is Percy in 1891, and it's 11 not 4, but because of the way the enumerator has struck through the box, it makes it look a bit like a 4. His name is above Fred's, suggesting he is older.
EDIT: Also, I've found another relative (different family) on the Chertsey Workhouse Union link you provided. What are the chances?
Thanks, Merry! :)
Still no ideas about George Frederick Hodgson Horne? I'm not convinced it's the same person, although obviously anything is possible.
Percy was registered as George Percy, and later switched to Percival George.
There's an entry on fmp in the National School Admission Registers & Log-books 1870-1914 for Frederick in 1891 for this school:
Windsor Street Church of England / Council School, Chertsey (infants)
His seems to be the only entry on the page with no dates or any other info such as father's name etc
There are two entries for Percy in the same database (same school) for 1887.
In the first case the entry above Percy's has the date 19 Sept 1887 but there are no dittos for him or the following couple of entries to the bottom of the page. His father's name is given as George and his address as Pyrcroft Road. His dob is given as 9 Nov 1880. Date of leaving 13 Feb 1888.
The second entry is dated 29 Feb 1887 has dob 9 Oct 1880 and no father's name or address. The leaving date is the same as the other entry - 13 Feb 1888.
That's probably him then, Merry. His birth was registered Q4 1880. Well done!
There's a Frederick Horne who died in WW1 30 Oct 1914. He was a rifleman (number 429) in the 3rd Battalion Rifle Brigade (The Prince Consort's Own). That's from fmp Soldiers died in the Great War 1914-1919.
He enlisted in Chertsey in April 1904 and Chertsey is also given as his place of birth in the UK, Army Registers of Soldiers' Effects, 1901-1929. The same document gives his widow's name as Thirza Jane and that there were no children.
Thirza and Frederick are together on the 1911 census in Chobham. He says he is 25 and now says he is born in Esher. Esher is in Kingston district and there are no Frederick Hornes registered there so I'm wondering if this is Percy's brother? Thirza has also underestimated her age saying she is 26 when she was actually 28 or 29.
here is their marriage:
Marriages Jun 1907
FOSTER Thir__ Jane Kingston 2a 742
HORNE Frederick Kingston 2a 742
Oh dear, another family with multiple brothers dying in the Great War? :(
Hmm, now here's a curious thing. I was going through FreeBMD and Percy's 1911 census trying to confirm who his children were, and after Arthur D (born 1910) - the last child on the census - I noticed this birth entry:
Births Jun 1912
Horne Evelyn M A Montgomery Chertsey 2a 121
Montgomery is the maiden name of Percy's first wife, known variously as Eleanor, Ellen, Annette, Annettie and Nellie Montgomery. So, obviously my first thought was, is Evelyn their last child together? Eleanor died in 1913, and Percy re-married in 1915 and was killed in 1917.
Luckily, Evelyn's baptism record (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Evelyn+M+A&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Horne&gsln_x=0&msbdy=1912&msbpn__ftp=Chertsey%2c+Surrey%2c+England&msbpn=87707&msbpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5286%7c87707% 7c0%7c&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&ssrc=pt_t84918040_p30509565947&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=2262420&recoff=9+12+36+49&db=SurreyBaptisms&indiv=1&ml_rpos=3) is on Ancestry, and it gives her parents as Percival William and Annette Horne. (It's transcribed as Lounette, but I think it is Annette).
I'm sure this is probably just a mistake on the baptism entry, but what do we think? My first thought was that this is very likely Percy's youngest child with his first wife. Their eldest son - a child in 1912 - was named Percival William.
EDIT: Incidentally, I'm not sure what happened to Arthur or Evelyn. There is an Arthur Dennis Horne who died in 1963, but he was born in 1900.
Ah, I think this (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Evelyn+M&gsfn_x=0&msbdy=1912&msbdy_x=1&msbpn__ftp=Chertsey%2c+Surrey%2c+England&msbpn=87707&msbpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5286%7c87707% 7c0%7c&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&ssrc=pt_t84918040_p30509565947&pcat=34&h=1867308&db=ONSDeath93&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1) might be Evelyn. Just need to find the corresponding marriage.
Okay, that's a Betty E M Richardson, married Charles B Chapman in 1935. They're in Croydon on the 1939 Register.
I can't find a birth entry for a Betty E M Richardson; the nearest is Betty E Richardson b. Sep 1912 in Devonport.
However... I don't know what the story is with Percy & Annette's children after she died. He re-married and had another son, but I very much doubt his first wife's children went with them because after Percy died she re-married and had 12 children with her second husband, and they brought up Percy's son with her.
Could be I am barking up the wrong tree with Betty E M Richardson, but I was thinking Betty = Annette?, E = Evelyn... could be nothing, obviously. I can't find a marriage or death for her under Horne, though.
Surrey baptism records for Percival William, Ronald Kenneth, Arthur Douglas and Evelyn Mabel Annette are available on Ancestry, which also provide dates of birth. Frederick Leslie - Percy's son with Annie Hale - does not have a baptism record, sadly.
Douglas has a 1930 regimental roll on Ancestry, which makes me wonder if he was killed in the Second World War, as that would explain why he doesn't have a record of death. Of course, he could have left the country and not returned.
Hopefully the dates of birth will make tracing them a bit easier.
I'm sure this is probably just a mistake on the baptism entry
What's a mistake?
What's a mistake?
If she is Percy & Annette's daughter, then his name being written as Percival William rather than Percival George (as with their other children).
If Percival William Horne is another person (the father), then I don't know who it is.
Oh OK, because you were going on about all the different names for his wife I was focussing on her!
Douglas has a 1930 regimental roll on Ancestry, which makes me wonder if he was killed in the Second World War
Did you look at the CWGC site?
Yeah, couldn't see him there. There's an Arthur Douglas Horner, died 1944 aged 24.
No luck on the 1939 Register yet either, but if he was in the Army (which he was in 1930) then obviously he won't appear on it.
Haven't found Ronald or Evelyn using the Register either.
There's a Herbert Horne b. 3/11/08 d. 5/8/79 Camden (same birthday as Ronald Kenneth) but I think he's this guy:
Births Mar 1909
HORNE Herbert Pancras 1b 1
He's in St. Pancras on the 1939 Register, so very likely the same person.
Using the same date of birth, there's also this:
Name: Leonard William Horn
Birth Date: 3 Nov 1908
Date of Registration: Dec 2004
Age at Death: 96
Registration district: Exeter
Inferred County: Devon
Register Number: B75F
District and Subdistrict: 408/1B
Entry Number: 199
...but probably this person:
Births Dec 1908
Horn Leonard William Okehampton 5b 333
So no luck so far. As with Arthur, could be to do with being in the military, or just being abroad.
These Hornes don't like being found, obviously!
EDIT: I wonder... perhaps the children were adopted after their mother's death? I suppose it wouldn't be unusual for that to happen, and the father later re-married. In those days I don't suppose men were expected to work and bring up young children on their own.
So, to clarify....Percy's children with dobs are:
Percival William 29 Oct 1906
Ronald Kenneth 3 Nov 1908
Arthur Douglas 25 Sept 1910
Evelyn Mabel Annette 2 May 1912
Frederick Leslie reg Q4 1915
This might be Frederick Leslie (how do you know his middle name?)
Death Reg:
Name: Fredrick Leslie Horne
Birth Date: 13 Sep 1915
Date of Registration: Sep 1977
Age at Death: 62
Registration district: Rushcliffe
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Volume: 8
Page: 1132
Could you please confirm which of them you need to find later. Is it everyone except Percival Wm 1906?
Now I'm on the desktop it's a lot easier to read back. I saw you said it was Evelyn and Arthur you were having trouble with?
I think the Betty Richardson marriage you found might belong to Bessie E M Richardson reg Q2 1912 in Marylebone (I couldn't see a death/marriage for her as Bessie)
This is Arthur's death in California:
Name Arthur Douglas Horne
Event Type Death
Event Date 13 Jan 1988
Event Place Los Angeles, California, United States
Birth Date 25 Sep 1910
Birthplace Other Country
Gender Male
Mother's Name Montgomery
Damn, I just deleted a long post about a possible for Evelyn because I couldn't prove any of it, but immediately after that I found the link I needed! So..,,...let's try again (at least this time I can put it down in chronological order!)
Births Jun 1912
Horne Evelyn M A Montgomery Chertsey 2a 121
bap gives dob as 2 May 1912.
(here's the bit I found just now:)
Evelyn Mabel Annette Baker (adopted) dob 2 May 1912 born at Addleston, Surrey.
The above appears on a service record that has the top edge missing so I can't see the name of the soldier, but luckily his wife appears as:
May Baker (her surname is Baker in the nok box and as her maiden name!) married 28 Jul 1910 at Addleston.
There's no May Baker marrying in Chertsey district in Q3 1910 so I looked for May X marrying X Baker and found:
Marriages Sep 1910
Baker Albert Chertsey 2a 73 <<<<<
Ingram Annie Chertsey 2a 73
Montgomery May Chertsey 2a 73 <<<<<
Smeeth George Chertsey 2a 73
So presumably May is a relative of Annette Montgomery! (sister?)
Then these are the bits I posted earlier and deleted:
Marriages Dec 1938
Baker Evelyn M A Hainsworth Leeds North 9b 657
Hainsworth George Baker Leeds North 9b 657
Those two are together on the 1939 register with her dob correct.
and Evelyn's death:
Name: Evelyn Mabel A Hainsworth
Birth Date: 2 May 1912
Date of Registration: Apr 1985
Age at Death: 72
Registration district: Leeds
Inferred County: Yorkshire
Volume: 5
Page: 299
Here's May Montgomery and Albert Baker in 1911 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_03004_0485_03?pid=41506812&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3d1911england%26gss %3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dmay %26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dbaker%26gsln_x%3d1%26gskw%3 dmitcham%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26MSAV% 3d2%26uidh%3d672%26pcat%3d35%26fh%3d2%26h%3d415068 12%26recoff%3d%26ml_rpos%3d3&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true). Her age and place of birth match May Montgomery in 1901 though I haven't actually looked to see if Annette was in that household or an earlier one as I have to go out soon.
Looks like Albert and May's only biological child died as a baby:
Births Sep 1911
BAKER Stuart Montgomery Chertsey 2a 123
Deaths Sep 1911
Baker Stuart 0 Chertsey 2a 100
Oh wow, great work there Merry. I had a feeling one or more of them may have been adopted. So Arthur died in the US and Evelyn was adopted by her aunt and given her aunt's married name? Very interesting. See, this is why you guys are so good! :D
Stupidly, I was only checking UK & Ireland records, so I missed Arthur!
I think the last one is Ronald, then? Haven't found him yet. Percy has a death entry on Ancestry:
Name: Percival William Horne
Birth Date: 29 Oct 1906
Date of Registration: May 1985
Age at Death: 78
Registration district: Surrey North-western
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 17
Page: 535
I don't think he married, but I'll keep looking.
As for Frederick Leslie, yes, that is his death in Nottingham. Freddie was my grandmother's first cousin; Percy's son with his second wife. I know who he was and have a photograph of him (at a wedding), and I know who his twelve (!) later half-siblings were, so I was interested in finding out about his dad's children.
Freddie Horne was one of five by his dad, and thirteen by his mum... :D
His wife is another story, however, as it looks like she may have been a Coram girl (this was mentioned to me by a relative) and so I cannot find anything about her real name and DOB. On her marriage entry to Freddie, her father's name and occupation just have a dash.
If you're interested in this mystery (but if she was Coram, could be unsolvable without more info):
Name Fanny Crisp
Spouse Surname Horne
Date of Registration 1937 - Oct-Nov-Dec[1937]
Registration district Surrey North Western
Inferred County Surrey
Volume Number 2a
Page number 688
The image (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=4779&h=7144795&ssrc=pt&tid=84918040&pid=30509565967&usePUB=true) is available on Ancestry.
Name Fanny Horne
Birth Date 15 Apr 1912
Date of Registration Dec 1969
Age at Death 57
Registration district Surrey North Western
Inferred County Surrey
Volume 5g
Page 667
The age given on her death entry matches her age on the 1912 register, although what name her birth was registered under I have no idea.
Also, I think you're right about May and Annette being sisters, and of course given the deaths of Percy, Annette and baby Stuart, it would make perfect sense for one of Annette's children to be adopted by her sister.
They are together on the 1891 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&indiv=try&h=18130725) census, and then in 1901 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=May&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Montgomery&gsln_x=0&msbdy=1885&msbpn__ftp=Mitcham%2c+Surrey%2c+England&msbpn=87760&msbpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5286%7c87760% 7c0%7c&cpxt=1&cp=11&catbucket=rstp&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=4526692&db=uki1901&indiv=1&ml_rpos=15) May is a servant in Chertsey, and in 1911 is with her husband (as you've linked to).
On the 1891 census, Annette will be Nellie (mistranscribed as Wellie).
Births Sep 1881
MONTGOMERY Eleanor Annitte Kingston 2a 335
Deaths Jun 1913
Horne Annetta E 31 Chertsey 2a 95
Mitcham is in the Croydon district, so:
Births Jun 1883
MONTGOMERY May Croydon 2a 283
Deaths Jun 1958
BAKER May 74 Surrey S.W. 5g 817
Oh dear...
There aren't any other Ronald Horn* births near Chertsey c1905 - 1910...
Name: Ronald Horn
Birth Date: abt 1909
Date of Registration: Jun 1921
Age at Death: 12
Registration district: Chertsey
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 2a
Page: 85
The area is right, and it would explain why there's no sign of him. If it is him, I wonder if he died in a workhouse or other such institution, given the misspelt surname and lack of middle name.
EDIT: If that is Ronald Kenneth Horne, then that is all of Percy's children accounted for.
I didn't look for Arthur in America, I just googled his full name!
I only looked for Frederick's death because you said you didn't have his dob, but that's on his death reg!
I would think it's highly likely that is Ronald's death you have found in 1921.
Don't you think this might be the marriage for Percival Wm?
Marriages Sep 1927
Horne Percy W Worsfold Croydon 2a 1067
Worsfold Dorothy Horne Croydon 2a 1067
He is on the 1939 Register with the correct dob and married to a Dorothy!
Do you know if anyone has the death cert for Fanny Horne/Crisp? As she just managed to live long enough for her dob to be required her place of birth would also have been asked for. I just wondered if this might give a clue to who she is?
Do you think she chose the date the Titanic sunk as her dob deliberately? In which case we may know nothing about her at all! lol (except she married Fred and died!)
Mary from Italy
13-04-16, 13:45
I can't see Arthur in the 1940 US census.
There's a possible marriage for an Arthur Douglas Horne in Florida in 1977, but it might just be someone of the same name.
The bride is Lucille C Karrick née Stanley.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=flmarriageindex&so=2&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsfn=arthur+douglas&gsfn_x=1&gsln=horn*&gsln_x=1&cpxt=1&cp=12&catbucket=rstp&MSAV=-1&uidh=yc2
Yes, sorry, I did have Freddie's DOB. If I said I didn't that was a mistake. I had been aware of that Nottingham death entry for a while as it's a source on one of my family trees, I just couldn't find a baptism record for him (which would have been nice).
I didn't find Douglas' death until I specified to search for US records on Ancestry.
I had already checked that marriage for Percy W, and I thought it could be him, but then I saw a Percy W Horne borne 1878(?) in Croydon on FreeBMD, so discounted it. However, if you're saying he has the same year AND birthday in 1939 then yes, it could well be him. Well done!
Fanny Crisp is trickier because I am not in touch with any immediate family; I know some of Freddie's cousins, but they are much younger (and most are dead now anyway) and I'm not sure why Freddie died in Nottingham. His wife died in Chertsey, which is where they spent most of their life AFAIK.
I have a photo of Freddie & Fanny together at a wedding, and my first thought was that she looked older than him. If she was a Coram girl (which I need to verify - if I can) then it's possible her DOB was changed, as well as her name. It's also possible that - as with the Gladys Maynard carry on - she simply changed her age to appear younger than her husband, as it was 'not the done thing' for women to marry younger men. (That is just speculation on my part, however).
At some point I can order her death certificate to see if it yields any details. I was hoping the other two I ordered (separate enquiries) would be here today, but it'll be tomorrow or Friday now I think.
Percy W has a probate record, which gives us his date of death, but Dorothy isn't mentioned.
This is her death:
Name: Dorothy Horne
Birth Date: 29 Nov 1907
Date of Registration: Nov 1995
Age at Death: 88
Registration district: Surrey North-western
Inferred County: Surrey
Register Number: RB40
District and Subdistrict: 7581B
Entry Number: 93
And, I think, her birth:
Name: Dorothy Worsfold
Registration Year: 1908
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Kingston
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 2a
Page: 492
I cross-checked her DOB 29/11/07 with the Dorothy Horne living with a Percy W Horne in Woking on the 1939 Register, and it matches.
EDIT: I think this is probably her probate:
HORNE DOROTHY 10 January 1996 9652400293 16 November 1995 Grant and will Winchester
I just couldn't find a baptism record for him
Ancestry's Surrey baps only go up to 1912.
Mary from Italy
13-04-16, 14:13
This is a bit speculative, because it might be another man with the same name, but might be worth checking out.
In 1946 an Arthur D Horne, British citizen, aged 35, permanent address in the Bronx, flew from London to Washington DC with wife R and a daughter J, aged 1. His occupation is Palestine Police, which might explain why you can't find him on the 1939 Register.
The Index to Consular Marriages on FMP shows a marriage for Arthur D Horne in Jerusalem between 1941 and 1945 to R W.
I can't see a birth for the daughter either there or in the UK.
Good lord, it could well be, couldn't it? We know he was in the Army in 1930, so it's hardly a stretch to consider he joined the police afterwards. And he married a Jewish girl?
Hmm. I'll see if I can dig up anything on that.
Where did you find that info, Mary?
Also, I have found Evelyn Baker (Horne) & George Hainsworth's daughter, but I won't name her as she may well still be alive.
Mary from Italy
13-04-16, 19:11
The flight manifest is on Ancestry:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=nypl&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsfn=arthur+d&gsfn_x=1&gsln=horne&gsln_x=1&cpxt=1&cp=12&catbucket=rstp&MSAV=-1&uidh=yc2&pcat=40&fh=0&h=3021474592&recoff=8+9+10&ml_rpos=1
and the consular marriages are on FMP:
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=bmd%2fovs%2fmcon%2f001208%2f097
Mary from Italy
13-04-16, 19:35
I've just realised there was a second immigration form for both Arthur and R, which shows that she was born in Vienna, and they were emigrating to join her father in the States. Arthur's full name (Arthur Douglas Horne) is given.
R's form is hard to read, but her previous address is shown as London. I haven't managed to get the image for Arthur's form to come up yet.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7488/NYT715_7140-1115/3021474627?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co .uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dnumident%26so%3d2%26pcat%3dRO OT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3djoan%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dhorne%26gsln_x%3 d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d12%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV% 3d-1%26uidh%3dyc2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7488/NYT715_7140-1113/3021474626?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co .uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dnypl%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db%26 new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3darthur% 26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dhorne%26gsln_x%3d1%26msady%3 d1946%26msady_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d-1%26uidh%3dyc2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Mary from Italy
13-04-16, 19:39
I've just realised that Arthur's wife was 25 in 1946, which means she could still be alive, so I've edited my posts to use her initials only.
Mary from Italy
13-04-16, 19:43
Ah, I think we have the right man. I've finally managed to get his form to come up, and his birthplace is given as Addlestone, which is quite near Chertsey.
Mary from Italy
13-04-16, 19:46
This is probably R's father, (Efraim) Wolf W, who died in Los Angeles:
http://interactive.ancestry.com/7733/imusany1824_1719-00591?pid=2572965&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.com%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3dnysoundexpet%26h% 3d2572965%26tid%3d%26pid%3d%26usePUB%3dtrue%26rhSo urce%3d5180&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=cadeath1940&so=2&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsfn=wolf&gsfn_x=1&gsln=wagschal&gsln_x=1&cpxt=1&cp=12&catbucket=rstp&MSAV=-1&uidh=yc2
Both his naturalisation form and Arthur and R's immigration forms show his address as Davidson Avenue, Bronx.
According to this passenger list, he and his wife were born in Poland, had German nationality, and moved to the US via Havana in 1940; previous place of permanent residence Mexico City:
http://interactive.ancestry.com/7488/NYT715_6467-0018?pid=1006809792&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.com%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3dnypl%26h%3d100680 9792%26tid%3d%26pid%3d%26usePUB%3dtrue%26rhSource% 3d7733&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true
Mary from Italy
13-04-16, 20:04
This is the daughter J's immigration form, showing that she was born in Palestine:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7488/NYT715_7140-1113/3021474626?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co .uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dnypl%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db%26 new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3darthur% 26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dhorne%26gsln_x%3d1%26msady%3 d1946%26msady_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d-1%26uidh%3dyc2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=NYT715_7140-1117
Thanks a lot for your work, Mary. Sadly I can't view the international records, but it does sound like you've found the right guy. That would explain why he has no marriage or death records in the UK.
Oh, and did we ever manage to find anything else re George Frederick Hodgson Horne?
I still think he might be one of the ones we already know about. Was there a dob on his baptism? I'm on my phone which discourages me from looking!
By the way, from the information we've seen, it is definitely the same Arthur Douglas Horne who was in the Palestine Police and later emigrated to New York. It very probably is the same man who died in California in 1988.
I can't see Arthur in the 1940 US census.
There's a possible marriage for an Arthur Douglas Horne in Florida in 1977, but it might just be someone of the same name.
The bride is Lucille C Karrick née Stanley.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=flmarriageindex&so=2&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsfn=arthur+douglas&gsfn_x=1&gsln=horn*&gsln_x=1&cpxt=1&cp=12&catbucket=rstp&MSAV=-1&uidh=yc2
I'm pretty sure this is Rose, then:
NAME: Rose Horne
SSN: 093-30-8709
BORN: 28 Apr 1920
DIED: Aug 1976
STATE (YEAR) SSN ISSUED: New York - 1954-1956
NAME: Rose Horne
BIRTH: date
DEATH: dd mm 1976 - city, Pinellas, Florida, USA
CIVIL: New York
Her age is given as 25 on one of the documents, so with Arthur's second marriage also being in Pinellas, Florida I think it's a safe bet it is her.
EDIT: Also...
NAME: Lucille Horne
SSN: 402-18-4178
BORN: 12 Jun 1921
DIED: Sep 1983
STATE (YEAR) SSN ISSUED: Kentucky - Before 1951
NAME: Lucille Horne
BIRTH: date
DEATH: dd mm 1983 - city, Pinellas, Florida, USA
CIVIL: Kentucky
OTHER: city, Pinellas, Florida, United States of America
Births Sep 1882
Horne Frederick Watson Elham 2a 997
He seems to be a boarder in Chertsey in 1901 but that's the only positive sighting I had.
You mean this guy?
http://search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Frederick&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Horne&gsln_x=0&msbdy=1882&msbpn__ftp=Chertsey%2c+Surrey%2c+England&msbpn=87707&msbpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5286%7c87707% 7c0%7c&msddy=1914&mssng=Thirza+Jane&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=0&uidh=yke&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=6879891&db=uki1901&indiv=1&ml_rpos=5
It says he is a step-son.
Mary from Italy
19-04-16, 18:39
No, I think Merry meant this one:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=uki1901&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsfn=fred*&gsfn_x=1&gsln=horn*&gsln_x=1&msbdy=1882&msbdy_x=1&msbdp=5&gskw=chertsey&gskw_x=1&MSAV=-1&uidh=yc2&pcat=35&fh=0&h=4527974&recoff=&ml_rpos=1
Mary from Italy
19-04-16, 18:40
Those deaths for Rose and Lucille look good.
The births are confusing me... :D
Folkestone / Esher...
Anyway, I wonder if the reason we never found George after 1881 (did we?) is because he died:
Deaths Dec 1886
HORN George 28 Guildford 2a 50
This would link up with an ~1858 birth, of which there are two in Chertsey:
Births Mar 1857
Horn George Chertsey 2a 25
Births Mar 1858
Horn George Chertsey 2a 27
This would obviously explain why the boys were paupers in a workhouse in 1891, and lodgers in 1901. I don't know where Eliza Jane has got to, though.
Oh and Mary, I did contact that tree owner re the Wagschals... I'll keep you posted. :)
If that Guildford death is not one of "my" Hornes, it makes my life simpler.
I have two clumps: one starting in Seale in 1819, the other settling in the Guildford area mid 1860s, but both originate in Wiltshire.
Births Mar 1857
Horn George Chertsey 2a 25
Births Mar 1858
Horn George Chertsey 2a 27
It's possible the first of those two boys died:
Deaths Sep 1857
Horn George Chertsey 2a 16
but I've not found anything to help confirm his age at death.
Here is George's burial: http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/4786/40815_1831101883_0849-00060?pid=2194813&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3dSurreyBurials%26g ss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dGeorge%2 6gsfn_x%3d0%26gsln%3dHorne%26gsln_x%3d0%26msbdy%3d 1858%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3dyke%26pcat%3d34%26fh%3d1% 26h%3d2194813%26recoff%3d9%2b10%26ml_rpos%3d2&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true
That seems to be the Guildford 1886 death, although it may not necessarily be our man.
Does anyone know anything about St. Catherine's Valley?
Do we know for sure that there were any more children besides Percy & Fred? We know what happened to them, but because it looks like the parents died young and don't appear after 1881, and with the boys being together in the Chertsey Union Workhouse in 1891, I am unsure if there were any younger siblings unaccounted for.
And that Hodgson baptism is annoying...
EDIT: My guess would be...
Herbert Henry Horne was their brother, and died as a baby, and George Frederick Hodgson Horne is... someone... :\
St Catherine's is on a hill to the west of Guildford. Presumably the valley is either down by the river, or the other side of the ruins.
St Catherine's is on a hill to the west of Guildford. Presumably the valley is either down by the river, or the other side of the ruins.
Thanks for that.
I didn't know whether it was a residential area, or was a euphemism for some sort of institution.
Also, the Ruckinge lot are a different family.
Here are George & Eliza Horne in 1871: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1871&indiv=try&h=13831284
So we can rule out: John Thomas (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=FS1EnglandBirthsandChristenings&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsln=Horne&gsln_x=0&msfng=George&msmng=Eliza+Jane&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=BMD_BIRTH&fh=5&h=23503906&recoff=&ml_rpos=6), Charles William (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=FS1EnglandBirthsandChristenings&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsln=Horne&gsln_x=0&msfng=George&msmng=Eliza+Jane&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=BMD_BIRTH&fh=6&h=34965709&recoff=&ml_rpos=7) and Walter (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=try&db=FS1EnglandBirthsandChristenings&h=23515930).
Oh, and did we ever manage to find anything else re George Frederick Hodgson Horne?
I took another look at this, but got nowhere. He was baptised in Oct 1882 and in Q3 1882 there's the birth reg of Frederick Watson Horne, who doesn't seem to have been baptised. Then there's the issue of GFHH being the only baptism recorded without a dob in the bap register. Why was that? Also there is something odd about the dates of the baptisms on that page - I was going to type them all out, but it's too confusing. Easiest if you just have a look if you have a fmp sub.
The minister who conducted the baptism (C Gregory) doesn't seem to have conducted any of the other baps on the page (could be why there's no dob?) but his entry is in the same handwriting as the one underneath it.
I still think it could be the baptism of Frederick Watson Horne but badly copied from some other bit of paper by F C Butler (one of the other ministers). The first name George could just be the father's name written in the wrong box, and Hodgson and Watson do sound similar!
Merry, do you have a link to the FMP image for it? I've found two George Frederick Hodgson Horne baptisms, but they're just index pages. Your theory certainly sounds good, though.
There's also a William Miles Horne born in Elham, but it is probably another family.
EDIT: I remembered what you said about Guildhall St. and being a waiter... so yes, Herbert Henry is very likely their son.
Does this (http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fcant%2f004030753%2f00317&parentid=gbprs%2fcant%2fb%2f96013596&highlights=%22%22) work?
Does this (http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fcant%2f004030753%2f00317&parentid=gbprs%2fcant%2fb%2f96013596&highlights=%22%22) work?
Yes, thank you. Sorry about that, I don't know why it wouldn't show up for me before. (I paid £1 today for a month's sub. :D)
I do see what you mean, and I agree that it is very probably Frederick Watson. I mean, it's not like a Frederick Hodgson Horne even exists, as far as I know.
It's a shame Percy was never baptized, or at least there's no record of one that we can see. I wonder why.
Here's (http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbor%2fschool%2fsur%2f6185_3_7%2f0023&parentid=gbor%2fschool%2fad%2f99857&highlights=%22%22) poor little Ronald Horne a few years before he died.
There are two entries for this child:
Births Jun 1884 (>99%)
Home William Miles Elham 2a 1012a
Horne William Miles Elham 2a 1012a
which haven't helped with anything!
I think there's a good chance that William Miles Horne is another child of George and Eliza Jane. I've not been able to find him in 1891 regardless of birthplace.
I think there's a good chance that William Miles Horne is another child of George and Eliza Jane. I've not been able to find him in 1891 regardless of birthplace.
Possibly, but we know there was more than one Horne family in the area, and remember there is this:
Births Sep 1880
HORNE Emily Jane Elham 2a 1003
Given that Percy's birth was registered Dec 1880, we're assuming Emily Jane is from a different family, and so William Miles could be also.
Two things I find rather annoying:
1: people disappearing without trace...
2: only being able to find baptism records for SOME of a couple's children
:confused:
I think there's a good chance that William Miles Horne is another child of George and Eliza Jane. I've not been able to find him in 1891 regardless of birthplace.
Have you found the William Horne from Lewisham, Kent?
1891 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=William&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Horne&gsln_x=0&msbdy=1884&msbpn__ftp=Kent%2c+England&msbpn=5270&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5270%7c0%7c0% 7c&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=35&h=17567227&db=uki1891&indiv=1&ml_rpos=2)
1901?
1911 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=William&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Horne&gsln_x=0&msbdy=1884&msbpn__ftp=Kent%2c+England&msbpn=5270&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5270%7c0%7c0% 7c&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=35&h=39409677&db=1911England&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1)
Could they be one and the same?
kiterunner
20-04-16, 22:06
The minister who conducted the baptism (C Gregory) doesn't seem to have conducted any of the other baps on the page (could be why there's no dob?) but his entry is in the same handwriting as the one underneath it.
Looks like different handwriting to me, Merry.
Ho ho ho, who's a clever boy then?
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=William&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Horne&gsln_x=0&msypn__ftp=Lewisham%2c+Kent%2c+England&msypn=85514&msypn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5270%7c85514% 7c0%7c&cpxt=1&cp=11&catbucket=rstp&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=426855547&recoff=4+6&db=LMAelectoralreg&indiv=1&ml_rpos=7
Looking at the 1891 census, it looks like he has an older brother called Richard, and their mother may be a Sarah Horne.
EDIT:
And this is his wife:
Births Mar 1892
Tochatti May Marianne G L Fulham 1a 235
And the brother-in-law from the 1911 census is:
Births Jun 1884
TOCHATTI Moncure Douglas C Fulham 1a 267
And is this Richard?
Births Sep 1881
Horne Richard Lardner Greenwich 1d 998
Deaths Jun 1893
Horne Richard Lardner 11 Greenwich 1d 585
I think these (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/LNDRG11_720_724-0214?pid=7693656&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1881%26indiv%3dtry%26h%3d7 693656&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true) are Richard & William's parents in 1881, just before Richard is born.
The father is American, hence the relatively unusual middle names for the children I suppose.
Have you found the William Horne from Lewisham, Kent?
1891 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=William&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Horne&gsln_x=0&msbdy=1884&msbpn__ftp=Kent%2c+England&msbpn=5270&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5270%7c0%7c0% 7c&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=35&h=17567227&db=uki1891&indiv=1&ml_rpos=2)
1901?
1911 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=William&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Horne&gsln_x=0&msbdy=1884&msbpn__ftp=Kent%2c+England&msbpn=5270&msbpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5270%7c0%7c0% 7c&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=35&h=39409677&db=1911England&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1)
Could they be one and the same?
Yes, I did find the Lewisham William Horne, but I thought he was this one:
Births Mar 1884
Horne William Kenneth Lewisham 1d 1178
and his marriage to May:
Marriages Dec 1909
HORNE William Kenneth Fulham 1a 766
TOCHATTI May Marion G L Fulham 1a 76_
Just to clarify...... Horne(e) birth entries from the date of George and Eliza Jane's marriage until 1891, plus any deaths of children and what we think we know about them so far...:
Marriages Jun 1879
Horne George Elham 2a 1425
WATSON Jane Elham 2a 1425
Births Mar 1880
HORN Herbert Henry Elham 2a 974 bap 29 Jan 1880 George and Jane
Births Sep 1880
HORN Harriett Elham 2a 998 Elgar and Emily (1881 census aged 9 mths)
HORNE Emily Jane Elham 2a 1003 Nothing found
Deaths Sep 1880
Horne Herbert Henry 0 Elham 2a 563 George and Jane (see birth above)
Births Dec 1880
Horne George Percy Elham 2a 929 George and Jane (1881 census 5 mths)
Births Sep 1882
Horne Frederick Watson Elham 2a 997 George and Jane because of middle name
Oct 1882 bap of George Frederick Hodgson Horne parents George and Eliza Jane
Births Dec 1882
Horn Rosie Elham 2a 1020 Nothing found
Deaths Sep 1883
Horn Rosie 0 Elham 2a 519 Northing found
Births Jun 1884
Horne William Miles Elham 2a 1012a Seems to appear on 1919/20 Lewisham erolls with Mary Horne
Births Dec 1886
Horn Eliza Nicholette Elham 2a 995 Elgar and Emily (1891 and 1911 census)
Yes, I did find the Lewisham William Horne, but I thought he was this one:
Births Mar 1884
Horne William Kenneth Lewisham 1d 1178
and his marriage to May:
Marriages Dec 1909
HORNE William Kenneth Fulham 1a 766
TOCHATTI May Marion G L Fulham 1a 76_
:O
Oh, you're right. Well, that means both Williams ended up in Lewisham, then. I assume William Wiles must be a misprint or variant of William Miles?
There's an Emily Jane Horn marrying in Elham district in Q1 1901 but that turns out to be this Emily:
Births Dec 1871
Horn Emily Jane E. Ashford 2a 655
dau of Elgar. She married Thomas Haydon and was 29 at the marriage.
Yes, I think Wiles could just be a misunderstanding of Miles. I've not been able to find anything else on him yet (with M or W!), which is irritating!
Northampton Mercury 27 November 1931
There's a piece about three men acting suspiciously and one of them is called William Miles Horn painter of East St, Olney. Thing is he is described as a young man, so I guess there must be more than one Wm Miles Horn(e).
Thing is he is described as a young man, so I guess there must be more than one Wm Miles Horn(e).
Ah, the 'young man' is aged under one month on the 1911 census! At least we know he can't be on the erolls in Lewisham in 1919!!
Those entries you found for William Wiles Horne were for 19 Glenwood Road Lewisham. I did a search on that address and found William Horne (no middle name listed) at the same address in 1905. So, off to look at the 1911 census.....
Bother, it's this chap:
Births Mar 1867
Horne William Wales Norwich 4b 114
1911, 19 Glenwood Road:
William Wales Horne Head Married Male Boot Dealer 44 1867 Norfolk Norwich
Mary Louise Horne Wife Married Female - 49 1862 Cornwall Truro
Oh dear. :(
Well, great work, Merry - and of course, we can't eliminate the possibility that George & Jane may have had more children in Surrey, before George's death.
From post #78. would you agree the only children that can belong to your George and Eliza Jane from Elham district are Herbert Henry, George Percy, Frederick Watson and possibly William Miles? Any other unidentified children are born too close to the birth registrations of the ones we have identified as George's.
Yes, I think that's very sensible, Merry.
I am inclined to discount William Miles on account of him not being with Fred and Percy at the Chertsey Workhouse in 1891, but of course there could be any number of reasons for that. It's annoying that whilst a Fred Horne appears on the admission & discharge books, a Percy Horne doesn't, and yet we know they were there in 1891.
Hopefully something turns up re William Miles Horne. I suppose at this point we just have to put him down as being an unknown, as we know there were two or three Horne families in Elham and so he could belong to any of those.
I assume there are no William Horne deaths around that time? I suppose it's possible his middle name was left out... (as with Ronald Horne)
I only looked at deaths for William 1884-1891 and couldn't see anything helpful. As you said, 101 things may have happened to him.
I would suggest you make a note of his birth somewhere and leave him be. In a few months time when you have forgotten all about him but you are researching some other Horne twig you may find an extra child in the house of a cousin or something and everything will become clear!
Yes, very true. :D
Also, and I know I've mentioned this before, but it may yet prove useful: on Percy's marriage record to Annette Montgomery (1904) he has listed his father as George Horne, and profession is valet. He has not mentioned him as deceased - now, I suppose in theory it is possible that he didn't know George had died, as the children may well have been separated for whatever reason... or it's an oversight, and he just didn't put that he was deceased.
But the alternative is that George was still alive in 1904, and working as a valet somewhere. At this point, Percy was living in Addlestone.
Interestingly, the witnesses are William Montgomery - Annette's father - and May, her sister. This is the same woman who later adopted Evelyn, as Evelyn Baker.
kiterunner
21-04-16, 14:00
Also, and I know I've mentioned this before, but it may yet prove useful: on Percy's marriage record to Annette Montgomery (1904) he has listed his father as George Horne, and profession is valet. He has not mentioned him as deceased - now, I suppose in theory it is possible that he didn't know George had died, as the children may well have been separated for whatever reason... or it's an oversight, and he just didn't put that he was deceased.
It also depends on whether the person who filled in the marriage certificate bothered to ask the question, though.
Fred & Thirza's marriage is here (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/4779/40761_308529-00757?pid=88069060&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dThirza%2 bJane%26gsfn_x%3d0%26gsln%3dFoster%26gsln_x%3d0%26 cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3dyke%26pcat% 3d34%26h%3d88069060%26recoff%3d11%2b12%2b13%2b39%2 6db%3dSurreyMarriages%26indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d4&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true) - no wonder I couldn't find it, it's been transcribed as Home.
It does confirm George was his father, and no occupation is given - dead?
Although, assuming this is Thirza Jane's birth:
Births Jun 1882
Foster Thirza Jane Chertsey 2a 36
I don't really understand the discrepancy between their ages. I suppose Fred maybe didn't know exactly when he was born.
Oh, Thirza left a will: https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar/GetImgSrc?filePath=%2F1958%2FH%2F004247_horne_1958 .Png
kiterunner
21-04-16, 15:49
no wonder I couldn't find it, it's been transcribed as Home.
When I research my Horner ancestors I always search for Homer too, because this is very common.
It's a shame Percy's second marriage doesn't appear to have an image up. :(
Rather confusingly, it seems Eleanor Annette aka Nellie (Nettie?) had a younger sister called... Nellie.
I think this is her:
Births Sep 1890
Montgomery Nellie Eva Chertsey 2a 48
They appear together on the 1891 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/SRYRG12_552_554-0328?pid=18130724&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1891%26indiv%3dtry%26h%3d1 8130724&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true) census.
I wondered why I was seeing a Nellie E Montgomery marriage in Chertsey, even though Annette Montgomery was already married at that point.
And there's this (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Eleanor+Annette&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Montgomery&gsln_x=0&msbdy=1881&msbpn__ftp=Esher%2c+Surrey%2c+England&msgdy=1904&msgpn__ftp=Chertsey%2c+Surrey%2c+England&msddy=1913&msdpn__ftp=Chertsey%2c+Surrey%2c+England&msrpn__ftp=Chertsey%2c+Surrey%2c+England&msrpn1__ftp=Addlestone%2c+Surrey%2c+England&mssng=George+Percy&mssns=Horne&mscng=Percival+William&mscns=Horne&mscng1=Ronald+Kenneth&mscns1=Horne&mscng2=Arthur+Douglas&mscns2=Horne&mscng3=Evelyn+Mabel+Annette&mscns3=Horne&_83004003-n_xcl=m&cpxt=1&cp=11&catbucket=rstp&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&ssrc=pt_t90751063_p77017702006&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=158618996&db=FS1EnglandBirthsandChristenings&indiv=1&ml_rpos=4) baptism, which I assume is for Annette.
Ah yes, the baptisms are all there: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=FS1EnglandBirthsandChristenings&gss=sfs28_ms_r_db&new=1&rank=1&gsln=Montgomery&gsln_x=0&msypn__ftp=Addlestone%2C%20Surrey%2C%20England&msypn=87687&msypn_PInfo=8-%7C0%7C0%7C3257%7C3251%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C5286%7C87687% 7C0%7C&msfng=William&msmng=Sarah&MSAV=1&uidh=yke
So do those last two posts mean you are OK with those people?
Okay, now this is interesting...
http://mv.ancestry.co.uk/viewer/4650a8b6-1e96-4a9b-838b-11262c8cd5d9/27149178/12577246633
I'd seen him on a few trees, but had no idea where they'd got him from.
What the... ?
EDIT: http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2047564/HORNE,%20CECIL%20BRUCE
Births Mar 1920
Horne Cecil B Foster Epsom 2a 103
Okay, so now we have to find out who his dad was.
It looks like Thirza didn't re-marry, so it looks like she had a child with another man and perhaps passed off Fred as the father to disguise the shame. I suppose not everyone had to know he was dead.
She's here (http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/locked?id=tnnco3qcnsmprvhijul7jz3uvbkovbeork7qu7yo 5mtkhk2uyrsq%3d%3d%3d%3d&enc=true) in 1939, but I don't have an annual sub.
I can't face trying to find the information you probably already remember, so......when did Frederick die?
I can't face trying to find the information you probably already remember, so......when did Frederick die?
October 1914, and his soldier's effects form (on Ancestry) gives the name of his widow, Thirza Jane Horne, and states there are no children.
And Cecil wasn't born until 1919/1920 anyway, so...
OK, thanks.
Well, we know she hasn't named another man as the father on the cert as there's isn't another entry with the same page number showing us the father's surname. So, as you said, she either pretended Fred was the father, or she didn't give a father's name.
I can't see that she was living with anyone in the years she appears on the electoral rolls (1920-30 roughly)
Thirza's here (http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/locked?id=tnnco3qcnsmprvhijul7jz3uvbkovbeork7qu7yo 5mtkhk2uyrsq%3d%3d%3d%3d&enc=true) in 1939, but I don't have an annual sub.
I'm not sure what you can see without the sub. She is at the address mentioned in her probate entry and has two men living in the house (lodgers?). They are both single, and both general labourers. Their names are Matthew Fagan b 11 Apr 1907 and James McMullen b 22 Sept 1907. Between Thirza and the other two is one closed record which is not mentioned in the household transcript (!). Could be Cecil if he hadn't joined up yet.
Interesting the RAF thought he was 19 when he died when he was actually 22.
Thanks for that info, Merry. I was able to work out Thirza's date of birth simply by repeatedly trying combinations using the free search. :p
So, as of now we have managed to compile a great deal of information re the Hornes, and I am putting together a family tree for a few relatives of mine. I have gone back to Henry & Charlotte Horn, and John & Elizabeth Watson - George & Eliza Jane's parents. Interestingly, it seems John & Elizabeth emigrated to the US in the 1880s, and both appear to have died in Iowa. Some of the younger children went with them.
What I'm missing is:
- is there a baptism for George Percy Horne anywhere? (doesn't look like it)
- where is (Eliza) Jane Watson in 1871?
- does the image for Percival George Horne & Mary Ann Hale's marriage exist anywhere? (perhaps mistranscribed)
I think that's probably about it. I may yet find random bits and pieces of info (hopefully) and sadly I can't add the US records yet, but that's life.
I just want to say thanks again to you, Kate, Mary and everyone else who has helped me with all of this. I really appreciate it. :)
Also, does anyone happen to know what parish (CofE) Guildhall St. and Darby Place would have been c1880?
There are several parish books for Folkestone on FMP (baptisms, marriages and burials) but I can't see anything in the book for Christ Church, which is where 'Frederick Hodgson' was baptized. I've looked through the relevant years in that book and can't find any more.
Annoyingly, Herbert Henry (who we can be fairly sure is correct) was baptized simply in Folkestone - no other parish given, and so that could be anywhere. I don't know. I'm not very good with that stuff.
I would like to search for any more entries for this family, but I'm not sure which parish books I should be going through.
Here (http://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-images/kent-canterbury-archdeaconry-parish-registers-browse-1538-1913) you can search through:
Christ Church
Holy Trinity
St. Mary & Eanswith
St. John the Baptist
St. Michael
St. Peter
St. Saviour
:|
Herbert Henry's baptism image is in this dataset: Folkestone, SS Mary & Eanswith. He was buried at Christ Church.
kiterunner
22-04-16, 13:28
The Herbert Henry Horne baptism that you linked to on ancestry is in one of the databases that they were given by FamilySearch, and it gives the film number as 1850119, reference ID item 6, page 244, so the best way to find out more about it is to look that film number up in the catalogue on FamilySearch, which gives more details about what is on the film:
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/582990?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Unfortunately it only says "Parish church of Folkestone" but googling for that suggests that it is St Mary & St Eanswythe.
Edit - I see Merry got there first!
Found their marriage, Merry: http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/browse?id=gbprs%2fcant%2f004030754%2f00479
This confirms their fathers' names!
Found their marriage, Merry: http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/browse?id=gbprs%2fcant%2f004030754%2f00479
This confirms their fathers' names!
lol I was looking for Percival's, not that one! Kate posted the fathers names back in post #2!
lol I was looking for Percival's, not that one! Kate posted the father's names back in post #2!
Yes, I am also looking for Percy's baptism (and any other children), but I wanted to see if there was an image for George's marriage, too. It also says he's a waiter.
Perhaps the baptism of GFHH was a combination of two baptisms that C Gregory performed for the family? :D:D:D
Perhaps the baptism of GFHH was a combination of two baptisms that C Gregory performed for the family? :D:D:D
I think that's very possible. It's a shame there isn't another 'fixed' version of those baptisms.
There is a Rosie Horn d. Q3 1883 Elham age 0 - I'm trying to rule her out.
Good luck. The easiest way might be to buy a lottery ticket!! :D
Is this (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_03002_0275_03/41505200?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/90751063/person/77017702006/facts/citation/343907265131/edit/record) something we've missed, or is it supposed to be Annette's sister?
Lucy Horne, 20, born Chertsey, Surrey...
Births Mar 1889
Horne Lucy Chertsey 2a 55
Oh dear? :D
Oooh, I hadn't looked at that census before.
Is this (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/4779/40815_1831109333_1386-00097?pid=2045499&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3dSurreyMarriages%2 6gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsln%3dCooper%2 6gsln_x%3d0%26mssng%3dLucy%26mssns%3dHorn%26MSAV%3 d1%26uidh%3dyke%26pcat%3d34%26fh%3d0%26h%3d2045499 %26recoff%3d11%2b34%2b46%26ml_rpos%3d1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true) the same marriage?
Name: Lucy Horn
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1924
Registration district: Guildford
Inferred County: Surrey
Spouse: Cooper
Volume Number: 2a
Page Number: 159
The same marriage as what?
The bride is called Lily and the father is Frederick Allen Horne (or similar).
(EDIT - Frederick Albert now I've put my glasses on!)
Okay, I think this is the woman from the marriage:
Births Dec 1898
Horn Lily Guildford 2a 103
(Yes, I know, but it was transcribed as Lucy for some reason)
Deaths Dec 1918
Horn Lucy 29 Hailsham 2b 222
I can't find a birth for this Lucy, but of course she may have been married.
Very curious as to who the Lucy Horne in 1911 is, then. Perhaps she is a half-sister. Hmm. She can't be a sister-in-law (unless we're missing a sibling, and it says she is single)
1891 census
Lucy Chasten abt 1889 N Foundling Chertsey, Surrey
Worth investigating?
The writing on that census page is poor.
Can you link to the image please, Merry?
I suppose if Fred & Percy spent a lot of time in workhouses, it's not unlikely they befriended a foundling girl and later 'adopted' her as a sister.
But there is a birth record...
I thought there's a good chance Jane might be living under another name after George's death and that's why we can't see Lucy until she becomes independent.
Didn't we have a death in West Ham for Lucy, which doesn't feel right with all the stuff we've learned later and might be too soon anyway. .
When did George die?
Can you link to the image please, Merry?
Sorry, I can't on my phone.
I thought there's a good chance Jane might be living under another name after George's death and that's why we can't see Lucy until she becomes independent.
Didn't we have a death in West Ham for Lucy, which doesn't feel right with all the stuff we've learned later and might be too soon anyway. .
When did George die?
Well, the death we've settled on is 1886 Guildford, with an October burial. He was 28, which matches our George, and I can't find a suitable alternative. It looked good to me, and it may also explain why his sons were in a workhouse in 1891.
I did notice this earlier, which could be interesting... or nothing:
Marriages Mar 1900
Davis John William Windsor 2c 607
Horne Eliza Jane Windsor 2c 607
Windsor could be Berkshire, or parts of Surrey such as Egham. We can't rule out Eliza Jane having re-married, even if the West Ham death looked quite good to me. It might be interesting to try to trace & rule out the Davis marriage.
I don't know if it will be successful, but I have submitted a request for Cecil Bruce Horne's 1939 Record to be opened.
kiterunner
22-04-16, 16:56
I don't know if it will be successful, but I have submitted a request for Cecil Bruce Horne's 1939 Record to be opened.
Did you send in his death certificate, James? If not then it is unlikely they will open the record.
Did you send in his death certificate, James? If not then it is unlikely they will open the record.
He died in a German POW camp, so I'm not sure how I'd even get one. It won't be on the usual England & Wales index, surely? I've not found it, anyway.
I attached some documents for them, and linked to his page on CWGC, etc.
We'll see what happens.
kiterunner
22-04-16, 17:14
This is the index page and you should be able to order the cert from the GRO (it counts as an "overseas event" in their ordering system):
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=bmd%2fovs%2frafa%2f000204&parentid=bmd%2fovs%2frafa%2f000204%2f100&highlights=""
But wait and see whether they open the record going on the stuff you have sent them. And do let us know the outcome!
This is the index page and you should be able to order the cert from the GRO (it counts as an "overseas event" in their ordering system):
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=bmd%2fovs%2frafa%2f000204&parentid=bmd%2fovs%2frafa%2f000204%2f100&highlights=""
But wait and see whether they open the record going on the stuff you have sent them. And do let us know the outcome!
I will do, Kate, and thank you. I didn't know about that index, or ordering overseas event certificates. I'm always learning new things here.
Well, if anyone can find Lucy Horne in 1891 or 1901 then that'd be interesting.
Born in Chertsey late 1888 or early 1889. No idea who her true parents are, but we know she's with Percy in 1911 and is down as being his sister.
I wanted to see if these entries are all for the same person and (in particular) the marital status of Lucy on the 1939 register, but of course, I can't find her!!
Deaths Mar 1959
HORNE Lucy L 69 Wandsworth 5d 947
Erolls:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/4829/40814_1831101883_1356-00339/16883491?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dsurreyelectoral%26so%3d2%26pc at%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dlucy%2blouise%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dhorne%2 6gsln_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drst p%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/4829/40814_1831109333_3714-00199/18841926?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dsurreyelectoral%26so%3d2%26pc at%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dlucy%2blouise%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dhorne%2 6gsln_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drst p%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
She looks like a servant in the erolls (so probably single or widowed), so I wondered if she might give us a clue in 1939 and we could either eliminate her or not.
I did look for Lucy L marriages to people called Horne and also Lucy L births etc etc but found nothing to help.
Michael Henry & Ethel Whitley (the family from your electoral roll) are in Petersfield, Hampshire in 1939. The only other person in their household is closed, but it can't be Lucy due to the age (she'd automatically be open).
These are the three marriages between a Lucy L and a spouse named Horne:
Marriages Mar 1914
(1) Hazzlewood Lucy L Horne Dewsbury 9b 953
Marriages Dec 1937
(2) Lowe Lucy L Horne Rochford 4a 1690
Marriages Sep 1938
(3) Edwards Lucy L Horne Wallasey 8a 1922
We can eliminate them as:
Births Mar 1877
(1) HAZZLEWOOD Lucy Louisa Dewsbury 9b 651
Name: Lucy L Horne
Birth Date: abt 1877
Date of Registration: Sep 1937
Age at Death: 60
Registration district: Bucklow
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 217
(Full name given in probate as Lucy Louise Horne)
Births Dec 1902
(2) LOWE Lucy Lavinia Lewisham 1d 1211
Name: Lucy Lavinia Horne
Birth Date: 7 Dec 1902
Date of Registration: Mar 1983
Age at Death: 80
Registration district: Southend on Sea
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 9
Page: 3279
Births Mar 1916
(3) Edwards Lucy L O'Hara Liverpool 8b 186
Name: Lucy Lillian Horne
Birth Date: 17 Feb 1916
Date of Registration: Feb 1988
Age at Death: 72
Registration district: Birkenhead
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume: 37
Page: 716
So yes, that leaves both the 1918 Sussex (Lucy Horn) and 1959 Wandsworth (Lucy L Horne) deaths unaccounted for...
Some possibilities:
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/locked?id=tnnco3qcnsmpqx7kp7ruovo54vdcuvuh7zk2dr4f avza4hcqnjda%3d%3d%3d%3d&enc=true
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/locked?id=tnnco3qcnsmpruxnncwvii3e3wrdstz4pbmeiia4 54ct7mqmc5lq%3d%3d%3d%3d&enc=true
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/locked?id=tnnco3qcnsmpr7u5r2y77zv2q6t527fnyx2plaz4 vzeuxocg56qq%3d%3d%3d%3d&enc=true
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/locked?id=tnnco3qcnsmprvg27572xugunl2mm5n6d5ph7r4x nzcpcbbivr3a%3d%3d%3d%3d&enc=true
Yes, your posts #134 and#135 re Petersfield and those Lucy L marriages confirm what I found.
Re the Lucy Horn who died in Hailsham district in 1918....
This could be her (but of course might not be!)
Births Jun 1889
Tutt Lucy Hailsham 2b 98
Marriages Jun 1917
Horn James F Tutt Hailsham 2b 224
Tutt Lucy Horn Hailsham 2b 224
No children registered as Horn/Tutt, but she could have been previously married or they could have moved away (I only checked Sussex). There's a James F Horn marrying in Cuckfield district in 1920, who may or may not be the same man.....!
EDIT: there are at least a couple of trees on Ancestry which have the same, but that doesn't make it necessarily correct!
Some possibilities:
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/locked?id=tnnco3qcnsmpqx7kp7ruovo54vdcuvuh7zk2dr4f avza4hcqnjda%3d%3d%3d%3d&enc=true
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/locked?id=tnnco3qcnsmpruxnncwvii3e3wrdstz4pbmeiia4 54ct7mqmc5lq%3d%3d%3d%3d&enc=true
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/locked?id=tnnco3qcnsmpr7u5r2y77zv2q6t527fnyx2plaz4 vzeuxocg56qq%3d%3d%3d%3d&enc=true
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/locked?id=tnnco3qcnsmprvg2757xugunl2mm5n6d5ph7r4xn zcpcbbivr3a%3d%3d%3d%3d&enc=true
I can eliminate the last one. This is her marriage:
Marriages Mar 1910
HORN William Charles Hackney 1b 758
Ley Lucy Agnes Hackney 1b 758
and the birth of her dau who is in the 1939 household:
Births Mar 1918
Horn Margaret L Ley Poplar 1c 592
To be fair, I'm not sure about after 1939 for this one, so eliminated from being your Lucy, but not from being the one who died in 1959.
Still looking at the other three!!
The second link is this couple:
Marriages Dec 1923
Carter Louise Horne Andover 2c 599
Horne James Carter Andover 2c 599
Deaths Jun 1941
Horne Louise 53 Andover 2c 541
I haven't exactly eliminated the third link, but the entry says she is incapacitated and the other three women in the house are servants including a Lady's maid, so I think she might be from the wrong social class for your Lucy (no offence intended!!)
EDIT: this is probably her death:
Deaths Mar 1962
HORNE Louisa C 72 Surrey S.W. 5g 1192
So, that leave the first one.......
I hoped the erolls for Merton and Morden would help, but ancestry only has a small section from the 1960s.
I suppose this could be the Louisa from your first link:
Deaths Sep 1968
HORNE LOUISA 81 LAMBETH 5D 124
Pity she couldn't have lived a year longer to get her dob!
Interesting... so that just leaves the Wandsworth death?
Oh and by the way, Freddie Horne's wife Fanny was indeed a Coram girl, so we won't find anything on her birth. Her son confirmed that for me.
Has the family obtained any info about her? Apparently the institution kept v good records.
Has the family obtained any info about her? Apparently the institution kept v good records.
No, but it's something he wants to pursue, and he wishes he'd done it earlier. He says all this (family tree, getting in contact, etc.) has spurred him on, and I've put him in contact with another relative who has been through it all before with his mum - although in his case, it was whilst his mother was alive.
Does anyone know if any 1871 census records are known to be destroyed/lost? I'm having trouble finding Eliza Jane Watson in 1871; I'm assuming she'd still be in Gloucestershire at that point.
I've never been able to find James Brown (1861) or Ellen Fagence (1861) either, but I am aware that certain Somerset and Surrey records were destroyed due to flood damage. (These people are from separate queries).
kiterunner
24-04-16, 16:07
If you scroll down the 1871 England census search page on ancestry, it has a list of missing parishes, but none in Gloucestershire.
But wait and see whether they open the record going on the stuff you have sent them. And do let us know the outcome!
Well, ****** me with a fish fork:
Dear James,
Thank you for your email regarding the opening of a record.
We are delighted to let you know that the original image for the record you have referred to has now been opened and will be viewable on line within the next 48 hours (in line with system updates) so do please keep checking back for this.
The transcription will be updated in due course.
Did you know we have an informative blog with 'How to' videos, interviews and expert insights into the 1939 Register? You can find it here: https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/watch-1436591498.html
You can also see all our 1939 Register Frequently Asked Questions here: http://www.findmypast.co.uk/help/search?Query=1939
We hope you enjoy viewing the Register.
With kind regards,
Liam Kelly
EDIT: Is b_gger really censored? :d
kiterunner
27-04-16, 16:33
Nice. Thanks for letting us know!
Do they no longer need an address for a closed record?
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/frequently-asked-questions/answer/what-if-i-notice-an-officially-closed-record-in-the--register-that-i-believe-should-be-open
and I take it what whilst that FAQ reply says they must have sight of the death cert that isn't actually true as James didn't provide one for Cecil?
kiterunner
28-04-16, 08:48
Hmm, the question that is being answered there is "What if I notice an officially closed record in the 1939 Register that I believe should be open?" and you could only "notice" a closed record if you know the address, couldn't you? Has the wording of that Q and A been changed, do you know? I would love to be able to open a closed record without the address.
That's more or less what I was thinking. I didn't really understand the concept of noticing a record is closed when it should be open when you can't hope to know whose record is under the black line until you have tried to get it open and then only if your 'guess' is right will you know who the record belongs to.
I suppose I've not re-read all the other Q&As again to see if any other response says you need an address.
In the fifth and seventh paragraphs they imply that with the death cert they will 'search' the 1939 register. I wouldn't call it a search if they have been supplied with the address. Are they just playing with us?!!
To confirm:
1) No, I didn't supply a death certificate. I just linked them to some of the websites in which Cecil is listed as a deceased POW, and explained (perhaps incorrectly, as Kate has pointed out) that he doesn't have a valid UK death certificate. The evidence I attached in place of the death certificate was his image from the cemetery book, giving his date of death and the names of his parents.
2) I've never read their FAQ, so I have no idea what the wording was/is. I just winged it. :D
3) I provided the same address his mother and the two (?) lodgers lived at, and hoped/assumed it would be where he was living in 1939. For all I know he could have already been in the Army and the closed record could have been for another lodger.
I don't want to tempt fate, but I am now curious whether I could get away with this for other relatives I know are long dead, but for whom I do not have a death certificate.
Incidentally, I was surprised I was even able to ask to have the record opened. I only have a £1 1-month UK sub; I thought you had to have a 12-month sub to both view the Register and submit death certificates in order to open closed records? I'm sure that's how it was originally, at least.
I get the feeling they're being a bit more lax, as obviously very few people will have bothered to spend a tenner on a death certificate just to have someone's record opened. The information provided is often fairly useless anyway.
kiterunner
28-04-16, 09:50
I think they have always said that any sub will do for requesting that a closed record be opened, but the monthly sub would not allow you to view the records.
So, I sort of got side-tracked onto Annette Montgomery's family, as I've been helping Arthur Horne's daughters (yes, I found them!) with their family tree.
According to the 1911 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_03002_0135_03?pid=41503801&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1911England%26indiv%3dtry%26h %3d41503801&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true) census, William & Sarah Montgomery had 14 children, and I have worked out who they all were. However, Henry aka Harry Montgomery seems to have done a disappearing act after the 1911 census. (That or I'm just missing something really obvious, which is likely).
His birth is:
Births Jun 1888
MONTGOMERY Henry Croydon 2a 2_7
Which is for Mitcham, Surrey.
He has a baptism (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=wnR2468&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Henry&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Montgomery&gsln_x=0&msbdy=1888&msfng=William&msmng=Sarah%20Jane&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=BMD_BIRTH&h=158618504&db=FS1EnglandBirthsandChristenings&indiv=1&ml_rpos=2), and he's with his family in 1891, 1901 and 1911.
There are these:
Deaths Mar 1933
Montgomery Henry 43 Huddersfield 9a 525
Deaths Sep 1961
MONTGOMERY Harry 73 Leicester 3a 586
...but they can be paired with matching births.
I haven't found anything in travel or military records; there is a Harry Montgomery from Rotherham who went to America, but I've found a birth and marriage for him in Rotherham.
Any ideas? I think all of his siblings are accounted for, so I'd love to know what happened to Harry. I can't see him on the 1939 Register.
kiterunner
29-04-16, 16:48
I'm having no luck with him so far. What was his mother's maiden name, please?
His parents were William George Montgomery and Sarah Jane Prangley, Kate.
It may already be on this thread, but did his siblings stay in the Chertsey area, or scatter to the winds?
It may already be on this thread, but did his siblings stay in the Chertsey area, or scatter to the winds?
Most stayed in Surrey, but three died in Peterborough, Midhurst and Chester. There might be another who died outside of Surrey (I'm still writing everything up) but the vast majority married and died in Surrey.
kiterunner
29-04-16, 18:49
FamilySearch has the marriage of a Harry Montgomery, age 26, son of William Montgomery, marrying a Helen Osmond, 23, daughter of Edward Osmond, on the 7 Dec 1915 at Shenley, Hertfordshire. I can't find the image online anywhere for further info.
That looks very promising. That's in the Barnet district, which is where Harry's brother William is living in 1911: Ridge, Middlesex.
kiterunner
29-04-16, 19:01
There is a Peter O Montgomery birth in 1923, MMN Osmond (Woolwich district), who must be the Peter Osmond Montgomery who died Nov 2005 in West Sussex, DOB 3 Mar 1923. But I can't find him on the 1939 Register to see his parents' details. Of course it could be that his record is still closed.
kiterunner
29-04-16, 19:08
Helen Montgomery died Sep 1977 at Worthing, West Sussex, dob 7 May 1892. But I can't find her on the 1939 Register using that dob either.
I can't find any suitable H Montgomery candidates on the CWGC website.
Eh up, what do you make of this (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1904/32858_635001_2127-00257?pid=18421177&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dHarry%26 gsfn_x%3d0%26gsln%3dMontgomery%26gsln_x%3d0%26msbd y%3d1888%26msbpn__ftp%3dMitcham%252c%2bSurrey%252c %2bEngland%26msbpn%3d87760%26msbpn_PInfo%3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5286%257c87760%257c0%257c%26msddy%3d1950%26msdd y_x%3d1%26msddp%3d10%26msdpn__ftp%3dSussex%252c%2b England%26msdpn%3d5287%26msdpn_PInfo%3d7-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5287%257c0%257c0%257c%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26MS AV%3d1%26uidh%3dyke%26pcat%3d34%26h%3d18421177%26d b%3dUKProbateCal%26indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d3%26hovR% 3d1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true)?
Not sure how he'd end up there, though. Could it be him?
EDIT: I can't see his death on SP?
If Harry worked in Scotland, that may explain why we can't find any of them in England in 1939.
kiterunner
29-04-16, 21:58
Oh yes, I did see that earlier (the National Probate Calendar entry) but it was before I found the marriage and the child's birth. I was going to search on Scotland's People but had to break to eat and watch tv.
kiterunner
29-04-16, 22:01
On SP, if you search for Henry Montgomery deaths in Cupar, Fife, in 1958, there is one match so I assume that is him.
Thanks, Kate. I suppose that must be him, then -- I thought Helen and Peter being the other people mentioned would be a bit of a coincidence.
Also, Cecil Bruce Horne is now up on the 1939 Register by the way.
kiterunner
29-04-16, 22:23
Also, Cecil Bruce Horne is now up on the 1939 Register by the way.
That was quick!
Admittedly, given the birth registration, Emily Jane Horne is unlikely to be George & Eliza's daughter, but I would like to eliminate her completely.
Births Sep 1880
HORNE Emily Jane Elham 2a 1003
I found this (https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3A%22Emily%20Jane%22~%20%2Bsurn ame%3AHorne~%20%2Bbirth_place%3A%22Elham%2C%20Kent %22~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1879-1882~) on FamilySearch, which gives the father's name as George Horne.
Does anyone know which parish Chislett would be in?
kiterunner
02-05-16, 15:25
Chislett aka Chislet is a parish.
Ooops, yeah, you're right of course. :D
It's a shame that some of these old bishops' books aren't in any particular order.
EDIT: And one of the books of baptisms is actually all marriages. :|
Well, here (http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/browse?id=gbprs%2fcant%2f005264847%2f00160) is the Emily Jane Horne marriage.
Doesn't tell us much, really.
Huzzah! Finally, Freddy's wife Fanny Crisp has finally been unmasked. Their son phoned me earlier, told me what his mum's pre-Coram name was, and so I quickly found her on FreeBMD. It matched with her DOB and the place he was pretty sure she was born.
He also gave me two (!) phone numbers for cousins of his dad who are still alive and very interested in talking to me.
So that's some good news after a couple of months of relative silence, and that's two Coram girls successfully identified!
Mary from Italy
25-06-16, 11:58
Brilliant result!
Brilliant result!
Yep!
And, in no small part in thanks to you, several cousins are now in contact for the first time, including some in America.
So thank you very much, Mary. :)
Mary from Italy
25-06-16, 19:11
You're very welcome, but Kate and Merry did nearly all the hard work :)
You're very welcome, but Kate and Merry did nearly all the hard work :)
To be fair, you could end every sentence in every post on this forum with those words. ;)
Hey folks, sorry to bump this thread but I just wondered whether a bit of a break from all this could focus the mind somewhat.
I've added Cecil and Lucy Horne to my Horne family tree, but obviously on the proviso that they were illegitimate; we know this to be true in both cases, as their births were several years after their (legal) fathers' deaths. Real fathers are unknown, although that isn't really a problem for me.
For Cecil, I have birth and death dates, and we know he died as a PoW in Germany. He never married, and I can find nothing to suggest he had any children.
For Lucy, I am working on Merry's assumption that she died in Wandsworth in 1959, and that does appear to be the case. I think the March 1889 Chertsey birth is very likely the right one, though I have not ordered a certificate for that yet - I may eventually.
The problem with Lucy is that I can only find her on one census, and that's with her half-brother Percy and his family in 1911, at which point she is a servant in their household. This is the only piece of evidence I currently have that points to her existence in relation to the Horne family, and it was something we all missed originally.
Finally, I cannot find Lucy's mother Eliza Jane Watson in 1871. There could be any number of reasons for this, but I mention it again as I am hopeful of finding her at some point. It is possibly something as simple as a mistranscribed name.
To recap this information, to save people re-reading the thread...
Cecil Bruce Horne:
b. 07/03/1920, Epsom
d. 15/10/1942, Rheinberg (PoW)
- appears on the 1939 Register
Lucy Horne:
b. Mar-1889, Chertsey
d. Mar-1959, Wandsworth
1891?
1901?
1911 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_03002_0275_03/41505204?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/90751063/person/410024493784/facts/citation/1120087765152/edit/record)
- appears on the 1939 Register (I think? Merry?)
(Eliza) Jane Watson:
b. Mar-1858, West Dean
d. Dec-1890, West Ham
1861 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/MONRG9_3980_3986-0566/13388404?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/90751063/person/77017702002/facts/citation/343907408641/edit/record)
1871?
1881 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/KENRG11_1010_1013-0056/8579390?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/90751063/person/77017702002/facts/citation/343907408407/edit/record)
I'd really, really like to find Lucy in particular, as I am keen to confirm her as a member of this family. :)
appears on the 1939 Register (I think? Merry?)
I've no idea! What surname would she have?
I don't remember anything about this thread, so do you have Percival on the various censuses?
Presumably there's a reason we couldn't find Lucy before, but I don't really want to have to read the whole thread back to find out any more!
I'll try to find the relevant post if possible. :D
Thinking back, it may be we didn't find her. I think we were following up some information regarding the people she'd worked for previously, who appeared on some later electoral rolls at a different location (a house in Hampshire, I think) but Lucy was not with them at the time.
You found the Wandsworth death, though, and we did manage to narrow it down to that - or at least rule out the others through various means. :)
Merry: http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=318880&postcount=133
I'm confused as to why Percival and Lucy are half siblings when their parents seem to have married before Percy's birth and George's wife died after Lucy's birth?? What happened to George?
I'm assuming that Lucy was Eliza Jane's daughter, born illegitimately just before Eliza died. George was already dead, so he won't be the father. No idea who is, although that isn't really a problem for my research -- unless it turns out Lucy was living with her father's family in 1891 and 1901, in which case it is indeed the problem. :D
It's similar to Cecil Bruce Horne, where his mother claimed Frederick Horne was his father, despite the fact he was killed in 1914 and Cecil wasn't born until 1920. I think it was just to avoid any shame.
I'm assuming that Lucy was Eliza Jane's daughter, born illegitimately just before Eliza died.
Well, the above bold turns out to be incorrect!
I don't know where we went wrong before, but I've just found this on the 1891 census!!
Fairfield Terrace, Staines, Middlesex
Charles W Smith Head Married 36 Ostler b Beds, Clapton
Mary A Smith Wife Married 35 b Herts, Great Berkhampstead
Sidney C Smith Son 9 b Bucks, Cranfield
Charles W Smith Son 8 b Bucks, Cranfield
Louisa M Smith Daughter 7 b Sussex
Walter A Smith Son 1 b London, Marylebone
Jane Davis Lodger Married 31 B Gloucester, Coleford
Lucy Davis Daughter 2 b Surrey, Chertsey
James R Taylor Lodger Married 50 General Labourer b Island of Ceylon
Agnes B Leat Lodger Married 28 b Kent, Hythe
Way too much of a coincidence to match the forenames and birthplaces, surely?!
This is a very good example of less being more on fmp. Previously I had probably used ancestry to look at children called Luc* from Chertsey. This Lucy shows up in ancestry's initial transcription as the dau of Charles and Mary Smith because she has been listed as daughter rather than lodger and Charles is the head of house. I therefore didn't open the page because she looked legitimate and didn't have a mother called Eliza/Jane. On fmp they don't tell you that information, so you have to view the full transcript/page image and that's when I saw the word Coleford!
I think the birth reg we already have for Lucy is probably the right one as there's nothing (as far as I could see) for Davi(e)s. I can't see a marriage between Horn(e) and Davi(e)s from 1889-1891.
In 1901 things are not so simple!!
Could Jane have decided she is actually Welsh or is this a different couple/different Jane? Seems unlikely.....but a bit odd perhaps. Were any of her family Welsh?
Goosepool, Chertsey, Middlesex
John Davis, head married 43 labourer at linoleum factory b London, Westminster
Jane Davis wife married 42 b Brecon, Merthyr Tydfil, Wales
Lucie Davis dau single 12 b Chertsey Surrey
I can't find John/Jane in 1911, but of course now there are a lot of variables.
Oh, this just turned up (later than I looked previously):
Marriages Mar 1900
Davis John William Windsor 2c 607
Horne Eliza Jane Windsor 2c 607
kiterunner
22-08-16, 08:40
I saw that 1901 entry last night but had ruled them out because of Jane's birthplace! Well done, Merry!
Thanks :) It was just chance though!
Of course now we know she may easily have called herself Davis and not Horne (other than when her half-brother filled in the 1911 census) the death we found may well be someone else. if she married as Lucy Davis it might be difficult to trace that, but if you had her dob she might appear on the 1939 register I suppose.
Amazing, Merry! Thank you ever so much. I had a feeling that giving this a rest for a few months might help, and so it has!
We've now got Lucy's whereabouts 1891 - 1911, although sadly I've not been able to find either Eliza or John in 1911. Of course, one or both of them could have died by that point, but with such common names it's very hard to tell.
John's 1901 census record shows he was born in Westminster, though I'm not 100% sure which registration district that would have been in in ~1857. There is this, however:
Name John William Davis
Registration Year 1857
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district City of London
City of London
Inferred County London
Volume 1c
Page 67
Interesting that they got married over ten years after Lucy's birth.
If anyone is able to find any more about John then that'd be great. Hopefully he is still alive in 1911, which will allow us to confirm that Lucy was their only child.
If he really was born in Westminster in 1857 then, depending on the parish, the registration would be recorded in either:
Parish............................................ ............District
St. James Westminster ................................ST. JAMES WESTMINSTER (1837-1870)
St. Anne Within the Liberty of Westminster.....STRAND (1837-1868)
Of course, there are no matches for a John Davis in either of those at the right time. If you widen the net a bit (date and area), there's the one you found, plus one in Kensington in Q1 1857 and a few others, especially if you drop his middle name!
I tried following one forward (son of Adin and Caroline, who married Grace) and one backward (living with wife Elizabeth in 1891 - after Eliza Jane said she was Mrs Davis) but couldn't squeeze either of those into the story. To be fair, I didn't actually eliminate either of them as I lost interest because of the chances of going wrong. Of course, if you purchased the 1900 marriage cert....... :D
Oh, if you want to know which district a place was in, download and save the Place Names Index pdf from this link: http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/places/index.html
and/or use FreeBMD rather than Ancestry as you get a lot more information about districts if you click the district names in your results list.
Beware that both Ancestry and fmp sometimes list census places under the wrong registration district, especially in London, so be careful if you pick up a district from a census record. They are usually right, but not always.
@Merry
Many thanks for reminding me of the GRO search... I managed to find the elusive missing middle name of one of my great-grandmother's brothers without having to order a birth certificate for him. :D
Using this method, I have managed to discount the various other Horn/Horne children born in Elham / Folkestone; several are from the Miles family. It looks like just Herbert Henry, George Percy and Frederick Watson as suspected.
However, I've also managed to find an Oliver Horne, who seems to be the last of George Horne's children before his death:
Births Sep 1886
HORNE Oliver Chertsey 2a 48
Deaths Dec 1886
HORNE Oliver 0 Chertsey 2a 33
His mother's maiden name is Watson. :)
So, this looks to be another person for the Horne family tree. Right area, right time, right names.
Now, to see what else I can dig up...
Oh wow, there are some twins too!
Births Jun 1885
Horne Wilfred Beach Chertsey 2a 50
Horne William Beach Chertsey 2a 50
Looks like William died as a baby. But what of Wilfred?
EDIT: Seems they both died as babies =/
Stop trying to distract me from James Brown :D
Haha, sorry, I *do* want Mr. Brown solved as well. :D
HORNE, - WATSON Order
GRO Reference: 1883 D Quarter in CHERTSEY Volume 02A Page 46
I wonder who this is? :o
AND!!!
HORNE, ELEANOR IVY WATSON Order
GRO Reference: 1887 D Quarter in CHERTSEY Volume 02A Page 51
God, they're like buses, aren't they?
EDIT:
This must be the unnamed child mentioned above:
Deaths Dec 1883
HORNE Female 0 Chertsey 2a 30
This (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/4772/40761_311925-00333?pid=1116033&backurl=//search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D4772%26h%3D1116033%26ti d%3D90751063%26pid%3D410054910146%26hid%3D67375782 246%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DwnR5831%26_phstart% 3Ddefault%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue&treeid=90751063&personid=410054910146&hintid=67375782246&usePUB=true&_phsrc=wnR5831&_phstart=default&usePUBJs=true) is interesting.
This is surely the right Eliza Jane Horne... I'm assuming 'William' is John William Davis, who was Lucy Horne's father.
And here (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/4786/40761_311925-01045?pid=1123759&backurl=//search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D4786%26h%3D1123759%26ti d%3D90751063%26pid%3D410054910146%26hid%3D67375782 212%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DwnR5831%26_phstart% 3Ddefault%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue&treeid=90751063&personid=410054910146&hintid=67375782212&usePUB=true&_phsrc=wnR5831&_phstart=default&usePUBJs=true) is her burial.
I think Ancestry just died for me, or I've been locked out somehow. :o
This is, admittedly, something of a stab in the dark right now, but I have a possible death for Eliza Jane Watson (Horne / Davis):
Deaths Dec 1930
DAVIS Eliza J 71 Wandsworth 1d 611
The death we thought was probably her daughter Lucy Horn is:
Deaths Mar 1959
HORNE Lucy L 69 Wandsworth 5d 947
The same area, albeit nearly 30 years after. The name and age would match for Eliza Jane, however.
kiterunner
02-01-17, 16:05
Don't forget the online GRO death index shows the full middle name, and yes, that Eliza J Davis is an Eliza Jane. It doesn't cover 1959 so we can't get the middle name for Lucy L Horne that way though.
It's frustrating not being able to find either John or (Eliza) Jane in 1911, but I feel like I've run out of variables now. :o
Interestingly, the GRO search has thrown up yet another curious find.
HORNE, MAY PHYLLIS MONTGOMERY MONTGOMERY
GRO Reference: 1905 D Quarter in EPSOM Volume 02A Page 3
And a corresponding death:
HORNE, MAY PHYLLIS MONTGOMERY 4
GRO Reference: 1905 D Quarter in KINGSTON Volume 02A Page 254
The age at death says 4, but FreeBMD brings up the same death at age 0, and of course if they're registered the same year then it must be 0:
Deaths Dec 1905
Horne May Phyllis M 0 Kingston 2a 254
However, I can't find the birth on FreeBMD, and it doesn't appear on the GRO search unless you specify Montgomery as a mmn.
On the 1911 census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_03002_0275_03/41505201?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/90751063/person/77017702007/facts/citation/343907433080/edit/record), Percy has listed 3 children born from the marriage, 3 still alive, which is why I'd never have thought there'd have been another who may have died. I know there was a daughter born in 1912 (after the census) who was later adopted, however.
I can't find any other Horn(e) - Montgomery marriages, and the death being registered in Kingston matches the next sibling's birth (1907) in Esher.
Is it likely that May Phyllis Montgomery Horne is Percy & Annette's first child, and that for whatever reason was omitted from the 1911 census? The names, age and location are all right, and they were married in 1904.
I suppose it's possible it's a fluke, and a child belonging to another couple of the same name (unlikely), or even that Percy had an illegitimate child with one of his wife's relatives (also unlikely).
From your experience of census forms, how unusual would it be for children who have died to have been omitted from the 'children who have died' column?
Thoughts?
kiterunner
05-01-17, 15:43
Age at death 4 can mean 4 months or 4 weeks or possibly 4 days on the new GRO index, James.
kiterunner
05-01-17, 15:47
As for the birth reg, it is on FreeBMD (and the actual index image) as Mary instead of May.
kiterunner
05-01-17, 15:49
I have come across children being missed out of the counts on the 1911 census a few times before. But also she could be the child of another couple who married outside of England and Wales or the mother was married before and so wasn't Montgomery on her marriage.
Age at death 4 can mean 4 months or 4 weeks or possibly 4 days on the new GRO index, James.
Oh, I had no idea about that. How... confusing. :confused:
Thanks!
kiterunner
05-01-17, 15:57
This is May's burial record and she was 4 months old at death. Address is 1 Park Square, Esher.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/4786/40761_308529-00630/8067672?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
kiterunner
05-01-17, 15:59
And Percival and Annette are at 1 Park Square, Esher, on Percival jr's baptism in 1906:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/4772/40761_308529-00568/8067146?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
Well done Kate.
Here (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/4772/40761_308529-00568?pid=8067146&backurl=//search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D4772%26h%3D8067146%26ss rc%3Dpt%26tid%3D90751063%26pid%3D77017702007%26use PUB%3Dtrue&ssrc=pt&treeid=90751063&personid=77017702007&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true) is Percival's baptism.
Looks good to me.
EDIT: Ah, you got there first... obviously. :D
Oh, there's a baptism (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60947/42889_1831109333_0120-00012?pid=15401&backurl=//search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwnR6225%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26ssrc%3Dpt_t90751063_p4100557 07852%26srchb%3Dr%26gss%3Dangs-g%26rank%3D1%26tid%3D90751063%26pid%3D410055707852 %26gpid%3D%26gsfn%3DMay%2520Phyllis%2520Montgomery %26gsln%3DHorne%26msbdy%3D1905%26msddy%3D1905%26ms bpn%3D87727%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C0%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%257C 5286%257C87727%257C0%257C%26msbpn__ftp%3DEpsom,%25 20Surrey,%2520England%26msdpn%3D87728%26msdpn_PInf o%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C0%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%257C 5286%257C87728%257C0%257C%26msdpn__ftp%3DEsher,%25 20Surrey,%2520England%26cp%3D11%26cpxt%3D1%26msfng %3DGeorge%2520Percy%26msfns%3DHorne%26msmng%3DElea nor%2520Annette%26msmns%3DMontgomery%26msbng0%3DPe rcival%2520William%26msbns0%3DHorne%26msbng1%3DRon ald%2520Kenneth%26msbns1%3DHorne%26msbng2%3DArthur %2520Douglas%26msbns2%3DHorne%26msbng3%3DEvelyn%25 20Mabel%2520Annette%26msbns3%3DHorne%26msbng4%3DFr ederick%2520Leslie%26msbns4%3DHorne%26_83004003-n_xcl%3Dm%26MSAV%3D1%26pcat%3DROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3D 15401%26dbid%3D60947%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D1&ssrc=pt_t90751063_p410055707852&treeid=90751063&personid=410055707852&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=wnR6225&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) too!
Silly me for asking questions before investigating, I suppose. :D
I've found the baptisms (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/4772/40815_1831101883_0578-00030/2159757?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/90751063/person/410054909600/facts/citation/1120199073060/edit/record) for William Beach and Wilfred Beach, which were transcribed as 'Hora' rather than Horn(e). Strangely, George Horne's name is not given as the father... he wasn't dead at this point, so I'm curious whether these were John Davis' children. Who knows.
So, the list so far - with files we've found - is:
- Herbert Henry Horne 1879 - 1880, baptism + burial
- George Percy Horne 1880 - 1917, baptism (mixed with Frederick's) + 1st marriage
- Frederick Watson Horne 1882 - 1914, baptism (mixed with George's) + marriage
- William Beach Horne 1885 - 1885, baptism + burial
- Wilfred Beach Horne 1885 - 1885, baptism + burial
- Oliver Horne 1886 - 1886, burial (no image)
- Eleanor Ivy Horne 1887 - 1888, baptism + burial
- Lucy Horne 1889 - 1959? - ???
It seems that all of Jane's children were registered as Horne, even though at least the last two (and maybe three, or five...) were not George Horne's. John William Davis appears on as the father on Eleanor's baptism record as William Horne, but this could simply be an assumption on the part of the registrar.
It would be nice to find records for Oliver and Lucy if possible, and especially as we know Lucy is alive at least as late as the 1911 census.
What happened to Jane and John Davis (married in 1900) is anyone's guess, as the names are simply so common - and used with so little consistency - that it's extremely difficult tracking them. I can't find any suitable candidates in 1911, nor can I find John prior to 1901, or Jane (as Eliza Jane Watson) in 1871.
I will probably have to order a copy of their marriage certificate eventually, as I am not sure how much further we will get with these kind of names. :o
Just a little thing I've noticed...
I have been told by a few people that years ago it was not uncommon for couples to name their children after the godparents, and indeed I have at least a couple of examples (that I know of) in my own family. For example, one of my great-grandmothers had a youngest brother with the middle name Brampton, and we had no idea where this came from. I was then recently told by a relative that the Bramptons were a couple her parents knew at the local Church, and she suggested that they were probably godparents - or at least very close friends of the family.
Regarding Eliza Jane Watson having twins named William and Wilfred Beach Horne... it may simply be coincidence, but a William Beach and his family do appear alongside the Watson family on the 1861 census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/MONRG9_3980_3986-0566/13388405?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/55565062/person/13910656370/facts/citation/120337973163/edit/record). Obviously the name meant nothing to me before, but having since found the W. Beach twins it stuck out.
Still no luck finding her in 1871, though!
re Eliza Jane Watson's missing 1871 census, someone on RootsChat suggested this (https://familysearch.org/search/collection/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3A%22Laura%20J%22~%20%2Bsurname %3AWatson~&collection_id=1538354). I haven't found a corresponding birth for Laura J Watson.
Gilbert Mcrae Head M 29 Limehouse, Middlesex
Jane S Mcrae Wife F 30 Poplar, Middlesex
Lydia J Mcrae Daughter F 4 Poplar, Middlesex
Christiana M Mcrae Daughter F 1 Poplar, Middlesex
Gilbert Mcrae Son M 0 Poplar, Middlesex
Charlotte E Mcrae Daughter F 0 Poplar, Middlesex
Jane Laker Mother-in-law F 59 Fordrill, Gloucestershire
Laura J Watson Servant F 13 Poplar, Middlesex
Could someone please check the image and see if the information lines up?
Not sure what/where the place in Gloucestershire is supposed to be...
kiterunner
27-05-17, 10:48
James, are you saying you asked about this on Rootschat and they found a census entry transcription for you but they wouldn't check the image? :confused:
No, it doesn't "line up" - the birthplace box for Jane Laker is blank, then the birthplace for Laura is Gloucestershire Foxhill(? or could be Forhill) and then there is a line with nothing filled in except birthplace - Middx Poplar.
kiterunner
27-05-17, 10:49
Also, I don't remember anything about Eliza Jane Watson but seeing as this thread is 22 pages long, I would rather not read back through it to check! Where and when was she born / supposedly born?
She was born in West Dean, Glos. in 1858; the rest of her family are living together in Coleford in 1871... Eliza is the only child missing. She'd have been 13 at the time, so I wondered if she was in domestic service somewhere. I've scanned the Coleford area and not found her.
She married in Folkestone in 1879, so whilst it's very plausible she'd have been in Middlesex in 1871, it does seem a bit early, as she'd have been very young.
Someone on RootsChat pointed that Laura out as a possibility, as no accompanying birth could be found, and I don't think the place actually exists. It's not much to go on, but a possibility I think.
kiterunner
27-05-17, 12:43
This is Jane Laker on the 1861 census and she was born in Gloucestershire, so it looks as though the transcription of the 1871 is right - the birthplaces were written on the wrong lines, and Laura was supposed to be the one born Poplar.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8767/MDXRG9_309_313-0042/6002647?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1861%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d35% 26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3djane%26g sfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dlaker%26gsln_x%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3 d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV% 3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26MSV%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
I've just purchased a month's premium membership to try to tie up one or two more loose ends, if possible. Having come back to the mystery of Eliza Jane in 1871/1911, I decided to try this website's free search (https://www.ukcensusonline.com/search/index.php?fn=Jane&sn=Watson&phonetic_mode=1&event=1871&token=gDKCJrQ07P5sAmFT4d_nZVHlg2QIHntKqRd5gx9d4Dc) .
This result looked interesting:
Jane Watson 13 Scholar Herefordshire 1858 Foxford, Gloucestershire
...but I can't view the result without paying on that website. Can anyone find her using Ancestry's search? And does anyone know what/where Foxford would be?
The only other one that sticks out is:
Jane Watson 14 School Gloucestershire 1857 Bristol
...but I think it's this (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/GLSRG10_2559_2561-0471?pid=1212724&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH261%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource %26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsfn%3DJane%26gsfn_x%3D0% 26gsln%3DWatson%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D1858%26msbp n__ftp%3DBristol%26msydy%3D1871%26msypn__ftp%3Dglo ucestershire%26cpxt%3D1%26cp%3D11%26MSAV%3D1%26uid h%3Dyke%26pcat%3DCEN_1870%26h%3D1212724%26dbid%3D7 619%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH261&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true), which is wrong.
On Ancestry:
Jane Walson
abt 1858
Joyford, Gloucestershire, England
Niece
Kings Caple, Herefordshire
Sue from Southend
23-07-17, 21:37
She is transcribed as Jane Walson on Ancestry, niece of Mary Nicholas and b Joyford (?) Glouc. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/HEFRG10_2682_2685-0461?pid=10674435&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DeJc1824%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3Duki1871%26g ss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsfn%3Djane%26gsfn_x%3D0% 26gsln%3Dwa?son%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D1858%26msbd y_x%3D1%26msbdp%3D2%26msbpn__ftp%3DGloucestershire ,%2520England%26msbpn%3D5265%26msbpn_PInfo%3D7-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5265%257C0%257C0%257C0%257C%26gskw%3Dscholar%26 MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dzs8%26pcat%3D35%26fh%3D0%26h%3D1 0674435%26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=eJc1824&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true
Don't know if that fits with any of your research?
Sue from Southend
23-07-17, 21:39
Snap, Merry!
Walson... well, I'll be damned. She's with her aunt, Mary Nicholas; her mother was Elizabeth Nicholas.
That's her. Great find, Merry. Thanks a lot!
Now just 1911 to go...
Now just 1911 to go...
To save anyone else reading 100s of posts to discover who we are looking for in 1911, the info for 1901 is here:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showpost.php?p=325294&postcount=188
By the time I'd found that, there was no time left to look for anything in 1911! :D
( I presume you don't have Eliza/Jane's death?)
I think:
Name Eliza J Davis
Birth Date abt 1859
Date of Registration Dec 1930
Age at Death 71
Registration district Wandsworth
Inferred County London
Volume 1d
Page 611
For John:
Name John William Davis
Registration Year 1857
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district City of London
Parishes for this Registration District City of London
Inferred County London
Volume 1c
Page 67
Name John W Davis
Birth Date abt 1857
Date of Registration Mar 1932
Age at Death 75
Registration district Lambeth
Inferred County Greater London
Volume 1d
Page 294
Obviously either (or both) could be wrong.
So far I only have John in 1901 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7814/SRYRG13_588_591-0601/4523339?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/90751063/person/410024578677/facts/citation/1120087993937/edit/record) (with Jane & Lucy).
That Lambeth death has an associated probate record, but no mention of a wife/next of kin.
By the way, Lucy (their daughter) very likely died in Wandsworth (Kate found this one), which makes me think the above Wandsworth/Lambeth deaths for her parents could well be correct. It is currently just speculation, however.
Name Lucy L Horne
Birth Date abt 1890
Date of Registration Mar 1959
Age at Death 69
Registration district Wandsworth
Inferred County Greater London
Volume 5d
Page 947
All we really know about John is that in 1901 he is 43, a linoleum factory worker, and claims to have been born in Westminster. It looks like he may even have just gone by William at times, but his marriage record states him as John William.
He and Jane were married in Windsor in 1900 (no transcript available) but had been living as a couple for almost 15 years prior to that -- the children I have marked down as theirs are Eleanor Ivy Horne (1887-1888) and Lucy Horne (1889-1959?), whom we have census records for up to 1911, but no suggestion she ever married, and no luck finding her on the 1939 register.
John appears as William Horne on their daughter Eleanor's baptism record; I assume this is because the child was registered as Horne, and so the father's surname was presumed to be Horne. I can't imagine it is a different man, but I suppose it could be.
Using the GRO search, I have found the following children and - going by the fact George Horne died in 1886 - have grouped them as follows:
George Horne
Herbert Henry Horne
George Percy Horne
Frederick Watson Horne
William Beach Horne (twin)
Wilfred Beach Horne (twin)
Oliver Horne
John William Davis
Eleanor Ivy Horne
Lucy Horne
Of these children, it seems that only George, Frederick and Lucy survived infancy, and the former were both killed in the Great War.
Hope that helps by way of a synopsis. I am very curious why Jane and John appear to be missing in 1911...
Okay, so now we know who we're looking for...
John's parents - going by the Q4 1857 City of London registration, which I hope is the right one - were Matthias Davis and Ellen Martha Townrow.
Matthias has been located in 1841 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=whH920&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Matthias&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Davis&gsln_x=0&msbdy=1826&msbpn__ftp=london,%20middlesex,%20england&msrpn__ftp=London,%20Middlesex,%20England&msrpn=5275&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=35&h=7108799&recoff=8%209&dbid=8978&indiv=1&ml_rpos=17) and 1871 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=whH924&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Matthias&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Davis&gsln_x=0&msbdy=1827&msbpn__ftp=london,%20middlesex,%20england&msrpn__ftp=London,%20Middlesex,%20England&msrpn=5275&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=35&h=12310125&dbid=7619&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1) (with wife number 3), and he has both baptism (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=try&db=LMAbirths&h=1711662) and burial (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=try&db=LMAdeaths&h=157766) images as well. He died at Southwark workhouse in 1885 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60391/31436_190839-00160?pid=7665964&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3Dtry%26db%3DLondonAdminDisch%26h%3D 7665964&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true), and actually John and his older brother George were with him at St. Luke's Workhouse in 1862 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60391/31436_189796-00489?pid=3277855&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D60391%26h%3D3277855%26s src%3Dpt%26tid%3D90751063%26pid%3D410024578677%26u sePUB%3Dtrue&ssrc=pt&treeid=90751063&personid=410024578677&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true).
Matthias' wives were:
1) Ellen Martha Townrow (1826 - 1860, m. 1852 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31280_194854-00513/2203006?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/52108371/person/13336318075/facts/citation/36934470493/edit/record)) <-- John's mother; died a few months before the 1861 census.
2) Harriet Loftin Brookes (1830 - 1862, m. 1861 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31280_189955-00354/5222220?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/52108371/person/13336318075/facts/citation/36934469250/edit/record)) <-- should (?) be with Matthias and/or his children on the 1861 census.
3) (Elizabeth) Emma Fellows (1839 - ????, m. 1869 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31280_197395-00484/3008358?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/52108371/person/13336318075/facts/citation/36934467863/edit/record)) <-- is with Matthias and two of their children on the 1871 census.
Between his three marriages and periods of destitution, it seems that Matthias led something of a transient life... I can't find him in 1851, 1861 or 1881, and I can't find any of his wives or children apart from Emma and the two girls in 1871.
From what I can gather from the GRO index, Matthias & Ellen's children were:
Ellen Elizabeth b. Q2 1853
George Joseph b. Q4 1855
John William b. Q4 1857
Emma Martha b. Q4 1859
So... what happened to them?
Going round the houses a little...
This (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31280_199169-00721/5827652?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dAlb248%26_phstart%3dsucce ssSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3dlmamarriages%26s o%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsln%3ddavis%26gsln_x%3d1%26msfng%3dmat*ias%26msfn g_x%3d1%26msfns%3ddavis%26msfns_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%2 6cp%3d4%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV%3d1%26 uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)is probably the marriage of Ellen Elizabeth b. Q2 1853 in 1882. Matthias is a book binder which matches with the 1871 census. Note she is Elizabeth Ellen on the marriage entry!
Here is EE with her husband in 1901 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7814/LNDRG13_492_493-0504/3702437?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1901%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d35% 26_phsrc%3dAlb256%26_phstart%3dsuccessSource%26use PUBJs%3dtrue%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3djoh n%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dbradshaw%26gsln_x%3d1%26ms bdy%3d1850%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26cpxt%3d1%26 cp%3d4%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV%3d1%26u idh%3d672&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults) and in 1891 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/LNDRG12_487_489-0495/8136358?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dAlb264%26_phstart%3dsucce ssSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1891%26so%3d2 %26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3deli z*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dbradshaw%26gsln_x%3d1%26m sbdy%3d1886%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26gskw%3dlam beth%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d4%26catbucket% 3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV%3d1%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults). EEB says aged 48 and 38 respectively and in 1901 says she was born in Cripplegate.
So, maybe she was always called Elizabeth?
One of the marriage witnesses is a George Davis who might be her brother.
I feel sure this (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31280_194612-00537/1848633?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dAlb275%26_phstart%3dsucce ssSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3duki1861%26so%3d2 %26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dgeorge%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3ddavi*s%26gsln_ x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1855%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26g skw%3dmiddlesex%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d4%2 6catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26MSV%3d1%26uidh%3d67 2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)is the marriage of George J Davis even though he says his father is dec'd four years before you say he died!
George is a sailor which isn't helpful for census searches.
I wonder if the family are not showing in 1861 because this are in one of the missing areas in London and after that the children had gone their separate ways?
There's a possible death for Emma Martha in 1890.
From memory....
There were a few Davis/Crane children born 1881-1891 (none in the following five years) but I wasn't sure if I was looking at the right family in 1891 as I couldn't match Emma Davis b Newington (1891) with an Emma Crane on earlier censuses. Emma was a widow in 1891 and only had one child with her (Albert aged 9), but there were possible deaths for all the other children.
Now I've just seen this (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31280_197898-00048/3365916?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3f_phsrc%3dAlb324%26_phstart%3dsucce ssSource%26usePUBJs%3dtrue%26db%3dlmamarriages%26s o%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dalbert%2bgeorge%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3ddavis %26gsln_x%3d1%26msfng%3dgeorge%2bjoseph%26msfng_x% 3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV %3d2%26MSV%3d1%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)marriage which must be the correct Albert. I can now see Albert with widowed Emma in 1901 and 1911 and he has the correct middle name/initial on those so it would seem Emma Crane did come from the Newington area, or thought she did! Also, one of the other children (Frederick) I thought might have died is also with her in 1901.
Thanks, Merry. Great work as always. :)
What about this (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8767/MDXRG9_119_121-0494?pid=4999419&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH991%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource %26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3DGeorge%2 6gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3DDavis%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D 1855%26msbpn__ftp%3DSt%2520Pancras,%2520Middlesex, %2520England%26msbpn%3D85759%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5275%257C85759%257C0%257C0%257C%26cpxt%3D1%26cp %3D11%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pcat%3D35%26h%3D49 99419%26dbid%3D8767%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D4&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH991&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) for George in 1861? (No idea where everyone else is, though)
The age is off, but I think this (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/LNDRG12_358_360-0657?pid=11990527&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH994%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource %26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsfn%3DAlbert%2520George% 26gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3DDavis%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3 D1881%26msbpn__ftp%3DCamberwell,%2520Surrey,%2520E ngland%26msbpn%3D85393%26msbpn_PInfo%3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5286%257C85393%257C0%257C0%257C%26msfng%3DGeorg e%2520J%26msmng%3DEmma%26cpxt%3D1%26cp%3D11%26MSAV %3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pcat%3D35%26h%3D11990527%26dbi d%3D6598%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D16&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH994&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) might be Emma and Albert George in 1891. It says she is widowed, but she is a mantle maker and Albert is the correct age. Thoughts?
If that's the census where Emma was b in Newington then yes, that's the one I was looking at, but it was only after I'd seen Albert's marriage and the later censuses that I decided that was the right people in 1891 after all. I didn't make that clear, did I? :D She lost several children and her husband in quite a short space of time. I suppose he died overseas as I couldn't find any sensible death reg. Or he may have just vanished and not died at all!!
Yes, that could be George in 1861 though your boy wasn't born in St Pancras, but that might have been a guess on the census sheet. (Did you look to see if there was another George Davis b in St Pancras in the GRO index?)
Yeah, it is the Newington one, sorry.
These boys appear to have been orphaned quite early on, so it's proving difficult finding them. No idea where Matthias and wife number two are in 1861, either.
Some quite large areas of the London 1861 census are missing so maybe they are hiding there? If there addresses available on any of the other records around 1861 which you could look at on the census?
Matthias is here (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60391/31436_189796-00489?pid=3277855&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D60391%26h%3D3277855%26s src%3Dpt%26tid%3D90751063%26pid%3D410024578677%26u sePUB%3Dtrue&ssrc=pt&treeid=90751063&personid=410024578677&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true) with George and John in 1862, so that can't be too far away from wherever they'd have been in 1861.
Also, I think Matthias has two death registrations... or they just registered him once but with two different age assumptions?
1 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=whH1031&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Matthias&gsfn_x=1&gsln=Davis&gsln_x=1&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=8867444&dbid=8914&indiv=1&ml_rpos=37)
2 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=whH1031&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Matthias&gsfn_x=1&gsln=Davis&gsln_x=1&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=8867443&dbid=8914&indiv=1&ml_rpos=38)
Pretty sure it's the same man as the volume & page are the same, and that's his Workhouse death.
Okay, so this (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=whH1035&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=Matthias%20Henry&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Davis&gsln_x=0&cpxt=1&cp=11&catbucket=r&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=41727146&recoff=8%209%2010&dbid=8912&indiv=1&ml_rpos=26) is a son of Matthias' by his second wife, and he appears in a workhouse in 1862 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=whH1035&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=Matthias%20Henry&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Davis&gsln_x=0&cpxt=1&cp=11&catbucket=r&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=6814023&recoff=6%207%208&dbid=60391&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1), but I can't find him thereafter.
Hmm, I wonder if this (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31281_A100298-00098?pid=277796&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH1049%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3DLMAmarriage s%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msfng%3DMatthias%26msfng_ x%3D1%26msfns%3DDavis%26msfns_x%3D1%26MSAV%3D1%26u idh%3Dyke%26pcat%3D34%26fh%3D0%26h%3D277796%26reco ff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH1049&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) is a son as well? One of the witnesses is Jessie Davis, and there's a Jessie Davis - daughter of Matthias and Emma Davis - on the 1871 census.
What does the occupation say? Book binder, possibly?
EDIT: And here are his death (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=whH1059&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Frederick%20William&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Davis&gsln_x=1&msddy=1904&cp=0&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=BMD_DEATH&h=8833069&dbid=8914&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1) and probate (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1904/31874_223155-00268?pid=5740467&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH1059%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsfn%3DFrederick%2520Will iam%26gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3DDavis%26gsln_x%3D1%26msd dy%3D1904%26cp%3D0%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pcat% 3DBMD_DEATH%26h%3D5740467%26dbid%3D1904%26indiv%3D 1%26ml_rpos%3D9&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH1059&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true).
Matthias is here (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60391/31436_189796-00489?pid=3277855&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D60391%26h%3D3277855%26s src%3Dpt%26tid%3D90751063%26pid%3D410024578677%26u sePUB%3Dtrue&ssrc=pt&treeid=90751063&personid=410024578677&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true) with George and John in 1862, so that can't be too far away from wherever they'd have been in 1861.
Also, I think Matthias has two death registrations... or they just registered him once but with two different age assumptions?
1 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=whH1031&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Matthias&gsfn_x=1&gsln=Davis&gsln_x=1&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=8867444&dbid=8914&indiv=1&ml_rpos=37)
2 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=whH1031&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Matthias&gsfn_x=1&gsln=Davis&gsln_x=1&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=8867443&dbid=8914&indiv=1&ml_rpos=38)
Pretty sure it's the same man as the volume & page are the same, and that's his Workhouse death.
There is only one entry in the index, so the second one is a mistake where the freeBMD transcriber mistranscribed the age (says 59 on the page)
Hmm, I wonder if this (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1623/31281_A100298-00098?pid=277796&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH1049%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3DLMAmarriage s%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msfng%3DMatthias%26msfng_ x%3D1%26msfns%3DDavis%26msfns_x%3D1%26MSAV%3D1%26u idh%3Dyke%26pcat%3D34%26fh%3D0%26h%3D277796%26reco ff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH1049&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) is a son as well? One of the witnesses is Jessie Davis, and there's a Jessie Davis - daughter of Matthias and Emma Davis - on the 1871 census.
What does the occupation say? Book binder, possibly?
EDIT: And here are his death (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=whH1059&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Frederick%20William&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Davis&gsln_x=1&msddy=1904&cp=0&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=BMD_DEATH&h=8833069&dbid=8914&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1) and probate (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1904/31874_223155-00268?pid=5740467&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwhH1059%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsfn%3DFrederick%2520Will iam%26gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3DDavis%26gsln_x%3D1%26msd dy%3D1904%26cp%3D0%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pcat% 3DBMD_DEATH%26h%3D5740467%26dbid%3D1904%26indiv%3D 1%26ml_rpos%3D9&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=whH1059&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true).
That's the Frederick who was missing in 1891 because he was in an institution, but turned up later. From memory he was born in 1874ish.
Years ago I created a list of the majority of the missing census records in 1861 and a few other census anomalies. I've just found the list on another site, so I'm going to copy part of it in here in 'Family History News and Information'. It's possible that some of the mistakes mentioned have been corrected since I wrote the list, but I'm not going through it all again!!
This (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7619/MDXRG10_1304_1306-0100/1048815?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/90751063/person/410024578677/facts/citation/1120307792663/edit/record) is a strong possibility for John in 1871; I've found others, but they're just far too vague... usually a "J D" from "London" in a long list of names.
Could someone with FMP please list the relevant piece/folio/etc. information for this 1841 census record?
Prangley Henry 1832 — 1841 1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census All Saints Poplar, Poplar, London, England
I've searched Ancestry with every criteria I can think of, so it must be mistranscribed.
I can't find him in 1861 either, but it could be one of the missing records.
I can't get in to fmp, but I typed in Henry, 1832, Poplar and this was the 11th entry, which looks hopeful:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1841&gss=sfs28_ms_r_db&new=1&rank=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsfn=henry&gsfn_x=1&_F0003039=702&_F0003039_x=1&_F000303A=23&_F000303A_x=1&_F00032DB=14&_F00032DB_x=1&MSAV=2&MSV=1&uidh=672
Thanks, Merry. That's very difficult for me to read, but there's a long list of children and the parents are transcribed as Joseph and Mary, whereas I'm looking for James and Sarah.
Rather annoyingly, my one-month sub ran out this morning!
Could someone please see if they can find this and verify the age is transcribed correctly?
Jane Davis 28 Middlesex 1883 St Briavels, Gloucestershire
1911 census, area is Middlesex.
In 1911, Jane would be about 53.
I mention it because St Briavels is just next to Coleford, where she was born.
Yes, I'm afraid it's correct! She is the wife of Arthur Richard Davis 28 from Westbourne Park London.
Thank you, Merry. Back to the drawing board. :D
Well, that (https://i.imgur.com/tJB1PHW.jpg) was definitely worth £6...
EDIT: Wait, I thought this was an automatic thing? Do I have to wait a few days? :O
vBulletin® v3.8.7 PL3, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.