View Full Version : Blackrod Family Help needed please
Hi to you all I am now searching for my great great grandfathers side Grimshaws . William Grimshaw was born approx 1825 in Blackrod . I have no idea of parents names . I have looked on the online parish clerk for Blackrod , but can't find his birth , unless William wasnt is first name . I think Blackrod is also Bolton le moor it is in between Wigan and Bolton . any Help gratefully received . Thanks
As there seems to be more than one William Grimshaw saying he is born in the 1820s in Blackrod y(looking at the census records) you would definitely need your William's marriage cert to discover his father's name before trying to find his baptism otherwise you may end up going down the wrong line.
You say you have no idea of his parents names, but there are other threads on this site referring to his marriage to Ellen Calland . Have you got the original cert for this marriage? Was he illegitimate, as there's no father's name on this transcription?
Marriage: 11 Mar 1844 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
William Grimshaw - (X), 21, Collier, Bachelor, Scholes
Ellen Calland - (X), 21, Spinster, Ince
Bride's Father: William Calland, Collier
Witness: William Hilton, (X); Margaret Bolton, (X)
Married by Banns by: Charles Bisset, Curate
Register: Marriages 1844 - 1845, Page 5, Entry 9
Source: LDS Film 1885694
Have yo looked for William in 1841?
kiterunner
19-02-16, 10:42
Here is the marriage certificate, Merry, and no father's name, but incredibly neat handwriting:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60562/41177_334243-00264/290646?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dwiganmarriages%26so%3d2%26pca t%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dwil*%26g sfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dgrim*%26gsln_x%3d1%26mswpn__ftp _x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26msgdy%3d1844%26 msgdy_x%3d1%26msgpn__ftp_x%3d1%26mssng%3del*n*%26m ssng_x%3d1%26gskw_x%3d1%26_83004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3 d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Thanks Kate!
Pity you didn't mention the lack of a father's name at the marriage in your opening post Bearkins!! lol
Anyway, if it were my tree I would make a list of all the illegitimate Williams baptised at Blackrod in the right time frame and then see if I could work out whether any of the mother's married before 1841 and then try and find them on the census to see if they have a son, William living with them, either surname Grimshaw or taking the step-father's surname. Possibly a long shot, but worth a try.
Hi , I still wasn't sure that the Ellen Calland in Wigan was the correct marriage , as her name on the birth certificate in Scotland states she is Ellen callen as I sent for the certificate . So I didn't want to assume that they were the same thanks
According to the census William Grimshaw was born approx 1825 so the marriage dates don't tally with that of the age on the marriage certificate .
People often lied about their ages when they got married, especially if they were minors and easier to say you were 21.
You could try getting another of the birth records to see the spelling on those for Ellen.
Have you tried looking for Ellen's baptism to see if you can tie the records together that way? You have the bride's father's name and occ from the marriage record and the Ellen on the census (be she the same woman or not) says she is b abt 1823 in Wigan, so if you can find a baptism with the right father and occ at the right time in Wigan then you might be more confident about the marriage record being the right one.
Hi , yes I see what you mean , I still have the feeling that maybe Ellen or Helen Callen was born in Scotland , I do remember having a auntie in Glasgow although I never remembered the names . I know my mums side hadn't any Scottish ancestors only by marriage , but we did spend a lot of time in Scotland with a family with children I believed they were my cousins . But I Have no way of searching unless I go up to Glasgow . Has the Scottish office has told me that they didn't have to register a birth before a certain time . So that would scupper my chances . Thanks for all your help I have searched the on line Parish clerk in Blackrod for William Grimshaw and as yet could not find him . If you are correct he may be under his mothers name .
kiterunner
19-02-16, 14:59
I know we have gone over this a few times before. Ellen's birthplace on the censuses is Wigan. This thread has info on Ellen's parents etc:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=21594
Oh, OK - I'd forgotten we had already done the previous generation!
Yes the thread is about William Grimshaw born 1825 , we have been through that tree before . I am searching the Grimshaws , history. They only display marriages at st Katherine's Blackrod in the 1700s . So I may have to visit the ancestry centre at Preston , to search throughly .
When I looked briefly at Lancs OPC there seemed to be about half a dozen illegitimate babies baptised at Blackrod at around the right time. I wonder if any of those could be eliminated without the help of the marriages? I think the Blackrod burials are available so firstly you might be able to work out if any of those babies had died.
Looking llegitimate boys named William baptised in Blackrod in the mid 1820s, there are the following:
- William Makinson, bpt 10 Oct 1824, mother Alice Makinson, abode Blackrod.
- William Lord, bpt 7 Nov 1824, mother Jane Lord, abode Westhoughton.
- William Corner, bpt 15 May 1825, mother Hannah Corner, abode Blackrod.
- William Farrington, bpt 5 June 1825, mother Alice Farrington, abode Horwich.
- William Partington, bpt 29 Oct 1826, mother Ellen Partington, abode St Ellens.
- William Sherreton, bpt 25 Dec 1826, mother Margaret Sherreton, abode Blackrod.
I found William Partington on the 1841 census in Blackrod - with Grimshaws. Poss a co-incidence, but worth checking out. http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/LANHO107_536_537-0431?pid=5393141&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3duki1841%26gss%3da ngs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dWilliam% 2b%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dGrimshaw%26gsln_x%3d1%26M SAV%3d1%26gskw%3dblackrod%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1% 26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp%26uidh%3dfpy%26pcat%3 d35%26fh%3d1%26h%3d5393141%26recoff%3d8%2b9%26ml_r pos%3d2&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true
1841 Church Street, Blackrod
John Grimshaw, 65, cotton weaver
Margaret Grimshaw, 60
William Partington, 15, dyer
Martha Partington, 10, tearer
All born in country
There is another Grimshaw family in Church Street as well.
William Grimshaw, 40, dyer
Betty Grimshaw, 40
John Grimshaw, 15, dyer
Thomas Grimshaw, 15, dyer
Betty Grimshaw, 13
William Grimshaw, 11
Jane Grimshaw, 8
Ellen Grimshaw, 6
Michael Grimshaw, 3
James Grimshaw, 1
The family immediately above appear on the 1851 census - still in Church Street. While the father, William, was born in Adlington, Betty and all the children (with the addition of seven-year-old Moses) were born in Blackrod. http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/LANHO107_2198_2198-0418?pid=13140260&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3duki1851%26gss%3da ngs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dwilliam% 26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dgrimshaw%26gsln_x%3d1%26MSAV %3d1%26gskw%3dblackrod%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26c p%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp%26uidh%3dfpy%26pcat%3d35 %26fh%3d0%26h%3d13140260%26recoff%3d5%2b6%26ml_rpo s%3d1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true
I looked for a baptism of the Martha Partington (Bishhop's Transcripts on Ancestry) who was 10 in the 1841 census and living with Grimshaws and found a baptism at Westhoughton (about four miles from Blackrod): Martha Partington, baptised 18 May 1831 at St Bartholomew's, Westhoughton, mother's name Elizabeth Partington, weaver, abode Westhoughton. No father is recorded.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2575/4007102_00522?pid=13732525&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3dlancashireparishb irths%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3dmartha%26gsfn_x%3d 1%26gsln%3dpartington%26gsln_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26gs kw%3dlancashire%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11% 26catbucket%3drstp%26uidh%3dfpy%26pcat%3d34%26fh%3 d13%26h%3d13732525%26recoff%3d7%2b8%2b26%26ml_rpos %3d14&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true
It may be - if William Partington is correct - that he was raised by Grimshaw grandparents and took in the name of Grimshaw and used that name when he married.
As I said, may be a huge red herring.
One of the witnesses at William's marriage was Margaret Bolton. The mother of Wm Sherreton in Shona's list was also a Margaret. If this research was in another county it would be very likely those two Margaret's were the same woman, but I appreciate in Lancashire Margarets were 10 a penny in those days!! Still, just a thought.
Ah yes, Merry.
The Grimshaw-Partington find is prob a red herring. That John and Margaret Grimshaw who had 15-year-old William Partington and 10-year-old Martha Partington with them in 1841 also appear on the 1851 census (entry split over two pages, but still next door to the other Grimshaw family) - they are recorded as brother and sister, both unmarried.
The brother and sister are still around in Church Street in 1861 (aged 86 and 84). The next door Grimshaw family have been replaced by a certain William Partington, 38, ag lab, his wife Ellen (38) and four children - Ellen, 12, William, eight, George, five and Mary, three. I suspect, therefore, this William Partington is the same one as on the 1841 census. http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/lanrg9_2767_2773-0474?pid=23365752&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3duki1861%26gss%3da ngs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsln%3dgrimshaw %26gsln_x%3dNN_NS%26MSAV%3d1%26gskw%3dblackrod%26g skw_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp% 26uidh%3dfpy%26pcat%3d35%26fh%3d0%26h%3d23365752%2 6recoff%3d%26ml_rpos%3d1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true
Shall we eliminate William Partington as a possibility?
Shall we eliminate William Partington as a possibility?
At least put him on the back burner!
kiterunner
20-02-16, 12:33
The name Sherreton seems to be pretty rare but there are quite a few Sherringtons in Lancashire.
Had a look for Sherringtons.
There is a baptism of a Thomas, son of John (miner) and Margaret in Blackrod on 23 March 1824.
So there are people with the Sherrington surname in the parish at about the right time.
Also found an Ellin Sherrington who died at the age of 18 in 1836 in the Blackrod colliery following an explosion of firedamp (11 people killed in total).
Then there is a William Sherrington who was buried in Blackrod on 5 January 1880, aged 56. I wonder if he could be the William Sherreton born to Margaret and baptised in 1826.
Hi ,i know it's sometime ago that we did this research . About william Grimshaw I checked william grimshaws burial date in Pemberton . and he died age 80 in 1905 . if it helps . I also found the 1851 census with ellen and william living in Durham ,with daughter Margeret aged 6 and Son james age 1 . I believe that's them . perhaps from there they moved to Glasgow . Perhaps James died as they had their second son james in 1856 in Glasgow . I believe we have mentioned margeret before . She doesn't seem to be with her parents later in scotland . but perhaps she stayed with Grandparents ? Unless i can find her death . I thought I may glean more info from the censuses . i can't get the full 1851 census on FS. as it only gives basic info . I can't go to the library yet as places are limited to use ancestry . so if you can let me have a copy of this 1851 ,census i would be most grateful . Shona has mentioned . the grimshaw family in church st . Mother Betty . could it be that the birth of william is wrong .as i have a gut feeling about this family . ? let me know what you think ? thanks
so if you can let me have a copy of this 1851 ,census i would be most grateful .
1851 census
Wingate, Durham
Wm Grimshaw head married 26 coal miner b Lancashire
Ellen Grimshaw wife married 28 b Lancashire
Margt Grimshaw dau unm 6 b Lancashire
James Grimshaw so unm 1 b Lancashire
Shona has mentioned . the grimshaw family in church st . Mother Betty . could it be that the birth of william is wrong .as i have a gut feeling about this family . ? let me know what you think ? thanks
I've found Shona's post regarding the family with mother Betty:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showpost.php?p=315467&postcount=15
Please can you explain what you mean by, "could it be that the birth of william is wrong".
Hi ,merry Good morning , just been so busy putting our house up for sale and looking for a new place . The family grimshaw shona mentions in church st Blackrod , Is from the 1841 census . there's a william grimshaw in that family but it says age 11 , could that be wrong ? i'm sorry for not explaining . lol
Ah OK.
The William Grimshaw aged 11 in 1841 is aged 20 in 1851 and still single and living in Church St with his parents William and Betty. Your William was married by then.
hi ,i checked the mines in durham and there are two collieries 1 and 2 wingate grange . so William may have worked there .
kiterunner
03-05-21, 08:57
All the UK censuses are free to view on Findmypast today. Hope you can find some time to have a look on there before their offer ends! This is a link to that 1851 census on there:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC%2F1851%2F4294953%2F00098A&parentid=GBC%2F1851%2F0015954913
(You will need to have an account on there, but not a subscription.)
hi , i have logged in but, it won't let me search without paying ,it does a search , then the person comes up and then you have to pay . so it's a swizz .
kiterunner
03-05-21, 12:23
Oh, sorry about that. It was letting me view it free when I posted earlier today. I thought "till 3rd May" would mean until the end of the day! It must have ended around 10 a.m. or 11 a.m. Very strange.
Ahi ,I know i'm clutching at straws . but I just thought i'd look at Bolton and little bolton online parish clerks to see if i could find William . i know the name is common . but i did find a william. grimshaw , baptised in 1825 . Father Charles and mother Hannah . it says abode little Bolton . i know it's a long shot but it was worth looking .
Which is your William Grimshaw in 1901?
On the 1901 census there are william grimshaw .46 born in Glasgow and his father William age 76 .this is with william henry at pemberton .
Olde Crone
03-05-21, 19:04
There is a William Grimshaw born 1859 in Springburn (Glasgow) on Scotlands People. You will need to buy a few credits to see the certificate.
OC
I think Qwackers' William was born earlier than that as he's 6 in 1861:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showpost.php?p=364941&postcount=61
Olde Crone
03-05-21, 20:02
Ah right, sorry to interfere, lol.
OC
hi ,Old crone , we have found william grimshaw , born 1854 in milton glasgow ,it's his father that's the problem . he says he's born in Blackrod around 1824/5 but we can't find him . i found a william grimshaw born in a Bolton le moors in 1825 ,but that the only one i've got that fits . So i'm still stuck looking for him . i suppose he could have been born elsewhere. as there is a william Grimshaw born in upholland about the same time the problem being it's quite a common name in Lancashire . There are two family of grimshaws in Blackrod around the right time ,who live in the same st , so they could be a clue .or a red herring . thanks
The bigger point is that the 1825 William seems to have been illegitimate (no father recorded at his marriage) and so we don't know if Grimshaw was his mother's surname or that of a step-father etc etc.
The earlier part of this thread discusses some of the numerous baptisms which could belong to this William. I think we have, so far, not had any positive identification in 1841 either.
hi , no we didn't find anything , like you said . it's so frustrating . of course he may not have been born there , that's another reason , but maybe we will never find out which is a shame .
Hi ,is there any other way we can find out? as i'm out of all ideas . Is there any document where he may needs his parents names ?
How far did you get with the analysis of the various baptisms Shona posted?
Olde Crone
04-05-21, 08:19
The illegitimate William born in 1825 will probably appear on a bastardy order. My man was also born in Lancashire in 1825 and I found him on a bastardy order. Unfortunately, the child's name is rarely given, just "son of", so you need to know at least a mother's name.
I am not sure where these documents are now, they used to be listed on the old A2A site, so possibly they are with the TNA, or possibly with Lancashire County Records.
As you have a few possibilities for your William, it might be a process of elimination.
OC
Manchester and Lancashire FHS say:
Lancashire Bastardy and Removal Orders
Transcribed by Mark Campbell. Bastardy orders covering 1802-1841 (with gaps) and Removal orders 1703-1845 (with gaps) from Lancashire Quarter Sessions records. Originals now available on ancestry.co.uk web database.
but at the moment I've not found them on Ancestry!
kiterunner
04-05-21, 08:39
Presumably this is the database which includes the originals:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/6820/
kiterunner
04-05-21, 08:43
Here are some examples:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/6820/images/4420908_00397?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=8124d60e3588cd50257b8ccff756fcaf&pId=37987
hi ,I'm sorry kiterunner , i'm not on ancestry .
kiterunner
04-05-21, 10:03
Merry will be able to see them, though.
kiterunner
04-05-21, 10:04
You can search the Lancashire Archives Catalogue for a bastardy record:
https://archivecat.lancashire.gov.uk/calmview/
Merry will be able to see them, though.
lol Thanks!
Thank you will have a look.
hi Merry ,Ihave been searching the 1841 census to see if i could glean anything else with regards to William Grimshaw . I found three possibilitys . Two births of him in Bolton . bur i also found a william grimshaw living with a lythgoe family in winwick age 15 . I don't know if there's any connection as it's saying birth lancashire . Maybe the proper census would show the relationship to the lythgoes , family search ,are not the originals like ancestry . Can you see anymore than i can Please ? it may be a shot in the dark , but i suppose it's worth pursuing. thanks
Please can you give details of which William Grimshaw you are talking about. If you have this William on the 1851 census, please can you post up those details.
I'm sure you already know the 1841 census doesn't give relationships or places of birth other than 'Yes' or 'No' for the county they were in on census night!
Having read back this thread and two others, are you talking about the illegitimate William b abt 1825 in Blackrod?
You are going to have to post up the detals of the three people you have found as I can only find two so don't know which one I am missing. Thanks.
will do if i can copy , but i have also been looking at william hilton witness to ellen and william on their marriage in 1844 with margeret bolton . there was a william hilton born around the same time as william in blackrod . it may be of no connection , but if he is ,it may connect william grimshaw to blackrod .
Name William Grimshaw
Sex Male
Age 16
Event Date 1841
Event Place Bolton, Lancashire, England, United Kingdom
Event Place (Original) Bolton, Lancashire, England
Registration District Bolton
Birth Year (Estimated) 1821-1825
Birthplace Lancashire
Page Number 24
Piece/Folio 536/35
Registration Number HO107
Other People on This Record
OPEN ALL
Charles Grimshaw
M
37
Lancashire
Hannah Grimshaw
F
37
Lancashire
Mary Grimshaw
F
14
Lancashire
John Grimshaw
M
8
Lancashire
Maria Grimshaw
F
7
Lancashire
hi ,i'm sorry only found the one now with charles and hannah .
I think that William married Jane Bolton 03 Jan 1847 in St Peter's Bolton-le-Moors. His father Charles (a weaver) is recorded on the marriage cert.
And the other two Williams?
hi ,i'm sorry only found the one now with charles and hannah .
Oh.
Sex:
Age:
Event Date:
Event Place:
Event Place (Original):
Registration District:
Birth Year (Estimated):
Birthplace:
Page Number:
Piece/Folio:
Registration Number:
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
John Lythgoe Male 35 Lancashire
Betty Lythgoe Female 15 Lancashire
Dinah Lythgoe Female 12 Lancashire
Thomas Lythgoe Male 8 Lancashire
William Grimshaw Male
will do if i can copy , but i have also been looking at william hilton witness to ellen and william on their marriage in 1844 with margeret bolton . there was a william hilton born around the same time as william in blackrod . it may be of no connection , but if he is ,it may connect william grimshaw to blackrod .
There are at least two Wiliam Hiltons who say they are from Blackrod on the census and were around the same age as William Grimshaw. Of course we don't know how old the witness was or where he was born.
william .is fifteen , and the census is winwick
Sex:
Age:
Event Date:
Event Place:
Event Place (Original):
Registration District:
Birth Year (Estimated):
Birthplace:
Page Number:
Piece/Folio:
Registration Number:
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
John Lythgoe Male 35 Lancashire
Betty Lythgoe Female 15 Lancashire
Dinah Lythgoe Female 12 Lancashire
Thomas Lythgoe Male 8 Lancashire
William Grimshaw Male
That's the one who is a locksmiths apprentice. John Lythgoe is a locksmith.
i know merry about the hiltons ,i was just trying to find some connection . i will look for margeret bolton too .
william .is fifteen , and the census is winwick
Isn't that the one you already posted, in the house of John Lythgoe?
hi , Althrogh these posts we have tried to find a birth for william grimshaw born around 1824/5 .we never found his birth . as the 1901 and 1911 census says born Blackrod . but the only william grimshaw we found wasn't the right birth. i did now search Bolton births and found a potential birth for william to a charles grimshaw and a Hannah grimshaw nee knowles . they had a few children . Is there any way i can prove that these parents are correct?
i found a marriage for charles and hannah in deane bolton in 1821 . and they living in deane in 1851 .
1841
OPEN ALL
Hannah Grimshaw
F
37
Lancashire
William Grimshaw
M
16
Lancashire
Mary Grimshaw
F
14
Lancashire
John Grimshaw age 8'
Lancashire
Maria Grimshaw
age 7
Lancashire .
I don't know how old our william was when he married Ellen callland in 1844. would charles and hannah william fit ours ?
kiterunner
26-04-22, 16:57
Isn't the one with Charles and Hannah the one mentioned in posts #56 - #58?
Olde Crone
26-04-22, 17:04
Has this one been eliminated?
William Grimshaw baptised 8 Feb 1824 St Mary the Virgin, Deane.
Mother
Mary Grimshaw spinster of Blackrod.
OC
kiterunner
26-04-22, 17:12
I don't think we've looked into that one before, OC. Good find!
hi no i don't think iwe looked into the baptism of mother mary at deane . will check it
great work old crone . that could be him as mary spinster is living in Blackrod great work .
i think that's our william as their abode is Blackrod . and that's what we were looking for great work OC .
I'll try and see if she got married later ?
there's a mary grimshaw born blackrod in 1804 . father william mother mary nee welsby wondering if that could be her ?
kiterunner
26-04-22, 17:52
I was thinking it could be her too.
good i'm glad you think that too
my father definetly had a connection with Blackrod through is family i know that , it was always mentioned . In fact they wanted to move there at one time .
william married mary welsby at st. peter's bolton in nov 1795 .
William and mary welsby s children John Grimshaw
Male
1796–Deceased
•
Male
James Grimshaw
Male
1798–1856
•
Male
Peggy Grimshaw
Female
1801–Deceased
•
Female
Mary Grimshaw
Female
1804–Deceased
•
Female
William Grimshaw
kiterunner
26-04-22, 19:04
Where have you got that information from about William and Mary's children? Can't be a list of baptisms since it gives death info?
sorry should have explained ,i have seen it on a family search site under mary grimshaw and her date of birth . it comes up with her parents and other children .
yes it looks like only james survived but i'll check them .
the births and burials are on st katherine's blackrod . OLPC
kiterunner
26-04-22, 21:38
So are you saying that Mary jr died young? The one who we thought might be the Mary who was the mother of your William?
no , i didn't mean she had died mary's burial isn't there she's ok so i believe she is the mother of my william it's her siblings , i think only james survived from the rest of their children .
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