View Full Version : Wives of Joseph Montgomery
Joseph Montgomery was born St Luke, Middlesex on 22 Sept 1839, father Henry Montgomery a weaver and mother Sophia nee Jarman.
His daughter Mary Ann always claimed to be born Bishopsgate, London, about 1865-67 (no birth cert or baptism found, so I don't know who her mother was).
Working through the censuses, this is them in 1871 with 'wife' Mary:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/LNDRG10_481_484-0334/12166780?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1871%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d187 1UKI%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3djoseph%2 6gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dmontgomery%26gsln_x%3d0%26msc ng0%3dmary%2bann%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3d584&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
and in 1881 with 'wife' Esther:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/LNDRG11_488_491-0766/15441383?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1881%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d188 1UKI%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3djoseph%2 6gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dmontgomery%26gsln_x%3d0%26msc ng0%3dmary%2ba%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3d584&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Can't find him in 1861 or after 1881.
The only marriages I can find for him are:
6 Nov 1862 Bethnal Green to Eileen Atkins
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_197395-00145/3007041?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLMAmarriages%26gss%3dsfs28_ms _r_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3djoseph%26gsfn_ x%3d1%26gsln%3dmontgomery%26gsln_x%3d0%26msfng%3dh enry%26msfng_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3d584&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
and 13 Aug 1888 at Bethnal Green to Mary Ann Coleman (nee Curran)
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_197355-00033/2979299?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLMAmarriages%26gss%3dsfs28_ms _r_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3djoseph%26gsfn_ x%3d1%26gsln%3dmontgomery%26gsln_x%3d0%26msfng%3dh enry%26msfng_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3d584&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
No marriage to a Mary pre-1871, or an Esther, or the death of any possible wife. (There is a parallel Joseph Montgomery and Esther Lucas who married 1857, appear in every census and never had children).
Can anyone see any more marriages, or deaths, or a birth for daughter Mary Ann Montgomery around 1865-67?
kiterunner
20-01-16, 22:05
"Eileen" Atkins is Ellen on the marriage cert that you linked to. I don't think Eileen was a very common name in those days. Were you thinking of the actress, by any chance?
kiterunner
20-01-16, 22:32
This looks to be Ellen's baptism, unless this one died and they gave a later child the same name:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1558/31280_194817-00297/1158291?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLMAbirths%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_ db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3d*e l*n%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3datkins%26gsln_x%3d1%26ms bpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26msfng%3djohn%2 bedw*%26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng_x%3d1%26 msmns_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
3 Jul 1829 at St Mary Whitechapel.
Edit - she is 22 on the 1851 census so that is her.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/MDXHO107_1542_1542-0389/1890473?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1851%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db %26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3d*el* n%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3datk*%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy% 3d1830%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26msbpn__ftp_x%3d 1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26msfng%3d john%26msfng_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Meaning that in 1862 when she married Joseph, she was about 33, not 27 as she claims on the marriage certificate!
Not sure where Eileen came from, she's Ellen in my records! I obviously wasn't concentrating.
Interesting that she dropped her age - Joseph had upped his, from 23 to 28, so they met in the middle.
kiterunner
21-01-16, 10:24
This is Mary Ann Curran's marriage to John Coleman, 2 Oct 1853:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_197393-00132/6614015?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Mary Ann is 21 and her father is John Curran, hatter.
There is a public ancestry tree which links to this 1871 census entry for the Colemans:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/LNDRG10_568_570-0570/12328593?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/15022004/person/253445671/facts/citation/2174898552/edit/record
This Mary Ann is 35, born St Luke, Middlesex.
I was hoping this would help me find her on the censuses after her marriage to Joseph, but no luck as yet.
kiterunner
21-01-16, 10:25
I can't help feeling that Merry should be on this thread!
lol I haven't read the opening post yet!
I presume the Edmonton death in 1902 is for the parallel family Joseph?
I wondered if this was your Joseph, but the burial record suggests he was aged 19 not 49?
Deaths Dec 1892
Montgomery Joseph 49 Mile End 1c 312
And there are a couple of younger Joseph Montgomerys in Mile End in 1891 so I guess the death reg should be for one of them.
This looks to be Ellen's baptism, unless this one died and they gave a later child the same name:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1558/31280_194817-00297/1158291?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLMAbirths%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_ db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3d*e l*n%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3datkins%26gsln_x%3d1%26ms bpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26msfng%3djohn%2 bedw*%26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng_x%3d1%26 msmns_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
3 Jul 1829 at St Mary Whitechapel.
Edit - she is 22 on the 1851 census so that is her.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/MDXHO107_1542_1542-0389/1890473?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1851%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db %26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3d*el* n%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3datk*%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy% 3d1830%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26msbpn__ftp_x%3d 1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26msfng%3d john%26msfng_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Meaning that in 1862 when she married Joseph, she was about 33, not 27 as she claims on the marriage certificate!
Here's something else confirming Ellen's age (bottom right record)
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2651/31363_a107581-00171/155809?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlmapoorlawsettlement%26so%3d2 %26pcat%3d36%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3djohn%2bedward%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3datkins% 26gsln_x%3d1%26mswpn__ftp_x%3d1%26gskw_x%3d1%26_83 004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drs tp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=31363_a1075 81-00171
I don't think it helps particularly other than being interesting in it's own right.
kiterunner
21-01-16, 16:02
That's interesting, Merry.
If anybody is wondering what "Never &c" means in the writing about Ellen on that poor law record, it means she never acquired a place of settlement of her own, so at that time her place of settlement would be the same as her father's.
There is also this, which I thought at first was another set of notes from the same admission, but it says her age is 36 on this one and the year is supposed to be 1866-7, when she should already be married to Joseph:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2651/31363_a107633-00155/46183?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2 fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLMApoorlawsettlement%26gss%3d sfs28_ms_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_Ad vCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dsar*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3datkin* %26gsln_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d 1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
:confused:
kiterunner
21-01-16, 16:27
And another poor law record from 1881, Ellen Atkins age 46, single woman, address is 4 Rose St, BG, so must be her:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2651/31363_a107652-00170/47294?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2 fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLMApoorlawsettlement%26gss%3d sfs28_ms_r_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1% 26gsfn%3del*n*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3datk*%26gsln_x %3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26MSAV% 3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Interesting!
Is she on the census in her maiden name?
kiterunner
21-01-16, 16:45
Looking for her at the moment...
Younger, but possibly Ellen in 1881 (last entry)
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/LNDRG11_419_423-1218/15090639?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1881%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db %26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dell* %26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3datkins%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbpn __ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1% 26gskw%3dbethnal%2bgreen%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%2 6uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
kiterunner
21-01-16, 16:51
This is her(Ellen Atkins) in 1871, with married sister Jane Hammond:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/LNDRG10_499_503-0247/12708377?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1871%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3del*n*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3datk*%26gsln_x%3 d1%26msbdy%3d1836%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d10%26msb pn__ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d 1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d 10%26fh%3d20%26fsk%3dBEDmZmYIgAAdwwAI1Ws-61-&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
I looked at Jane Atkins' marriage to Samuel Hamment (27 Sep 1860) and her father was John Atkins, toy maker, and her address was Rose Street, so definitely the right family.
The address on this 1871 entry is Mount Street, and there are some poor law records for Ellen Atkins of Mount Street, though not much info on them.
Ellen had a sister Jane two years older (Whitechapel baps) so this should be them in 1871:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/LNDRG11_419_423-1218/15090639?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1881%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db %26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dell* %26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3datkins%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbpn __ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1% 26gskw%3dbethnal%2bgreen%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%2 6uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
If I'm slow it's because I'm still using the keyboard with an ineffectual space bar, so I have to keep adding the spaces afterwards!!
kiterunner
21-01-16, 16:56
So, either Joseph Montgomery's marriage to Ellen Atkins was invalid, or they broke up quickly and she blotted it out of her mind - and managed to keep it a secret from the poor law officials.
I've just realised Joseph's second marriage was in 1888 but I thought it was 1882. I'm sure I saw a possible death for Ellen in 1884 and thought it would make more sense if Joseph only remarried after her death and before that had several partners, which is of course possible now I've realised the marriage was 1888.
Perhaps Joseph didn't have any children that were biologically his? I wonder if Mary was the mother of Mary Ann (1866) but someone other than Joseph was her father, and so we will probably never know her birth name.
kiterunner
21-01-16, 17:06
Perhaps Joseph didn't have any children that were biologically his? I wonder if Mary was the mother of Mary Ann (1866) but someone other than Joseph was her father, and so we will probably never know her birth name.
Yes, I thought the same, or Mary Ann was Joseph's but illegitimate and registered under her mother's maiden name.
This is the death I (mis)remembered!
Deaths Mar 1885
ATKINS Ellen 40 Hackney 1b 296
She's rather too young, but if that was her I saw in 1881 then she had already lost many years.
Of course I should have looked at 1871-1881 in case that 1881 census entry is someone else......
Between 1871 and 1881 this is the only London death remotely the right age:
Deaths Mar 1876
Atkins Ellen 52 Mile End 1c 396
and I think that death relates to the wife of an Aaron Atkins who are in Mile End in 1871.
And another poor law record from 1881, Ellen Atkins age 46, single woman, address is 4 Rose St, BG, so must be her:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2651/31363_a107652-00170/47294?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2 fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLMApoorlawsettlement%26gss%3d sfs28_ms_r_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1% 26gsfn%3del*n*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3datk*%26gsln_x %3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26MSAV% 3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Anyway, I'd forgotten about the above, so def alive in 1881!
Mary is born Gravesend, so may not be impossible to find - about 6 candidates in 1861 I think.
scrub that -it's Esther b Gravesend. Mary A, illegitimate d of Mary, b Bethnal Green will be more challenging!
I presume the Edmonton death in 1902 is for the parallel family Joseph?
Yes, that's the other Joseph Montgomery.
Those poor law records are interesting - it does look like the marriage didn't last.
I have wondered before whether Joseph 'inherited' Mary Ann from one of his partners, as there don't seem to be any more children. Would explain the lack of bc and baptism. I'd have thought that if Ellen was her mum she would have kept her when the marriage broke down.
He must have taken care of Mary Ann - they were still together in 1871 when she was 16, and she was a witness at his 1888 marriage as well as naming him as her father on her marriage cert in 1901.
At a guess I'd say the Mary he's with in 1871 is most likely to be her mother, but it will be hard to prove!
At a guess I'd say the Mary he's with in 1871 is most likely to be her mother, but it will be hard to prove!
Yes, I agree.
Have you got Mary (1866) in 1891? (I know she was Mrs Gibbons by 1901)
Bit of a long shot - baptism at St Botolph Bishopsgate 13 Oct 1867 Mary Ann daughter of John Lambert and Mary Ann Coleman, born 1 Aug 1867.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1558/31281_A101360-00149/407890?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1871%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d187 1UKI%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3ddaniel%2 6gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3ddu*el*%26gsln_x%3d0%26MSAV%3d 1%26uidh%3d584&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Could be a coincidence, but Joseph married Mary Coleman (nee Curran) 1888.
Off now to look for them in later censuses.
Sorry, Merry, missed your post. No, I can't find Mary Ann in 1891 - or Joseph.
kiterunner
22-01-16, 08:45
Bit of a long shot - baptism at St Botolph Bishopsgate 13 Oct 1867 Mary Ann daughter of John Lambert and Mary Coleman, born 1 Aug 1867.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1558/31281_A101360-00149/407890?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1871%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d187 1UKI%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3ddaniel%2 6gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3ddu*el*%26gsln_x%3d0%26MSAV%3d 1%26uidh%3d584&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Could be a coincidence, but Joseph married Mary Coleman (nee Curran) 1888.
Off now to look for them in later censuses.
Lindsay, see my post #5. John Coleman married Mary Ann Curran 2 Oct 1853 and there is a public tree on ancestry linking that couple to a Coleman family census entry in 1871, but we never checked whether that was correct.
Dates for the baptism I found above don't really fit with Mary Ann Curran/Coleman. Apart from the fact that she's still with her husband in 1871, there's not really room for an 1867 birth:
Mary A Coleman 16
William J Coleman 15
Emma Coleman 11
Eliza Coleman 7
Rachel Coleman 5
Authur Coleman 4
George Coleman 2
Samuel Coleman 6 Months
H'mm, in the marriage he's 11 years older and a carpenter, in that census he's 19 years older and a labourer in a sugar bakery.
kiterunner
22-01-16, 08:59
This poor law record for the Coleman family from the 1871 census says that John's father was William, which fits with the Coleman / Curran marriage:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2651/31363_a107637-00181/114829?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/76430083/person/36398670693/facts/citation/223152837369/edit/record
So Mary Coleman/Curran looks unlikely as Mary Ann's mother. I wonder if she could be a relative though?
I have to go out now but will try to follow this up later.
H'mm, in the marriage he's 11 years older and a carpenter, in that census he's 19 years older and a labourer in a sugar bakery.
I had a relative that significantly changed occupations on every census and another whose wife Mary changed her age and birth place ever census. After 40 years she went back to the original birth place otherwise I would have been looking for a death and remarriage between every census.
I had a relative that significantly changed occupations on every census and another whose wife Mary changed her age and birth place ever census. .
Lol Kit, doesn't it drive you mad! This lot seem to be prone to that sort of thing.
I've looked further without coming to any conclusions. It seems likely that Mary was Mary Ann's mother, and looking at baptisms at St Botolph Bishopsgate (as Mary Ann always said she was b. Bishopsgate) there are 9 candidates. The one quoted above (parents John Lambert and Mary Ann Coleman) looks most likely. However, it's possible she wasn't baptised, or baptised elsewhere.
But I'm a little further forward - thanks to everyone for looking.
Could the mysterious Esther be Esther Amelia Gilbee? She marries James Buck c 1858. Unfortunately, he is already married and appears to remain with his first wife.
She appears to have a couple of children with the surname Buck: Mary Esther/Esther Eliza c1858 and Henry George/George William c 1861. In 1881 she is a widowed matron of a lunatic asylum, but she is lost to sight in 1861 and 1871. The children seem to be separated from their mother at an early age. Not sure if Esther "Montgomery" is respectable enough to be a matron, but the way George's baptism is recorded, it suggests at the very least that she knows she isn't married.
But is she too wealthy: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1904/31874_222500-00454?pid=3208960&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db%3DUKProbateCal%26h%3D3208960%26indiv%3D try%26o_vc%3DRecord:OtherRecord%26rhSource%3D1623&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true
That's an interesting idea! It looks like they were both born in the Gravesend area. But that would mean she's in 1881 twice (at the asylum and with Joseph) - not unknown, I know.
It does sound like she was much better off than the Montgomerys.
Oh rats. I thought that was the other Joseph.
I wish it was her! I sometimes think they deliberately set out to confuse us.
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